Perfecting Long's Burning Desire

[VideoGameBoy]

Thug, I'm not going to continue to argue with you regarding the viability of Neo-Long or whether Duress is superior to Force, but I will address a couple of your other points:

Quote You look at all from Neo-longs point of view, I really wonder I you have ever seriously played with Long.

I've played the deck a couple of hours every week since May 26'th of this year, or thereabouts - which happens to be right around Mike Krzywicki posted his T1 Mind's Desire deck article on TheEndGames.com.  The link in my sig will take you to the thread where I tried to keep the deck alive post Mind's Desire restriction, but failed for the most part due to lack of support and interest from the TMD collective.  What resurrected the deck was Bode's letter to Long, and the fact that it started placing in several noteworthy European tournaments.  Not long after, Smmenen focused his baleful eye on the deck, resulting in this thread (and an article on StarCity) - which finally brought the deck the attention it deserves.

Although you definitely have more tournament experience with the deck, I have simply logged more hours than probably anyone else on this site with it - so to refute your statement, all I can say is click the link at the bottom of each of my posts and start reading the thread.  Most of the discussion focuses on Rectal Agony, but through the entire discussion of that thread, I ripped apart Long for a grand total of one week to play Rectal Agony before rebuilding it and continuing my playtesting.

Quote Yeah, but you can't claim that you often can drop Swarm with that deck can you?

And you don't always draw it;
and it can get killed;
and you don't have access to it before sideboarding...

Swarm wrecks control - I don't see how you can argue this.  It either baits out a counter or simply wins the game the turn you attack with it.

As for it getting killed; get real.  It's a sideboard card versus Control, not Aggro.

[Thug]

Quote Swarm wrecks control - I don't see how you can argue this.  It either baits out a counter or simply wins the game the turn you attack with it.

As for it getting killed; get real.  It's a sideboard card versus Control, not Aggro.

Yeah let's stop this discussion, since you're seeming not to read my posts.

I never said Swarm doesn't wreck control, actually I have very often seen it wreck control.

But it's something (smart) control expects, so don't be sursprised to see Fire/Ice's or even Swords after sideboarding.

I was just arguing that you can't rely on swarm alone, so you could still be in big trouble with your LED + FoW hand.

Koen

p.s. I will believe you that you have tested it a lot, but that just makes your opinions sound stranger to me.

edit: thanks Arthur  \n\n

[Tindemans]

I won't go entering the little discussion you two are participating in, however out of personal experience in the Netherlands I'd like to point out that control players often do expect Swarm. they know how it can wreck them, and they really prepare for it with stuff as direct as pure creature kill in the form of StP or Fire/Ice. usually the latter, since it cycles.

and Koen,

Quote
I was just arguing that you can rely on swarm alone, so you could still be in big trouble with your LED + FoW hand.

you mean 'can't rely' right? you're forgetting some ('t)'s in your argumentations.

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Tindemans @ Oct. 14 2003,15:29)I won't go entering the little discussion you two are participating in, however out of personal experience in the Netherlands I'd like to point out that control players often do expect Swarm. they know how it can wreck them, and they really prepare for it with stuff as direct as pure creature kill in the form of StP or Fire/Ice. usually the latter, since it cycles.

My experience is that Keeper can deal with Swarm the best, since it at least usually has maindecked StP/Fire, but even post sideboarding it doesn't have enough creature kill (3-4 cards) to make that much of a difference.  Cunning Wish is too slow to be effective, also.

Hulk is often completely helpless to resolved Swarm, since all it has to remove it is Deed, unless it is using the R splash.

That is what I was referring to by "control".

[Tindemans]

well in that case, leaving 'rogue' control decks and of course controlling prison decks as Mud out of the comparison, it pretty much explains. in 'the Netherlands' Hulk is the lowest represented quality archetype.
This split in two control decks, against which Swarm functions otherwise, is a core for miscommunication. also in your little discussion.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Thug @ Oct. 14 2003,17:34)

Quote Even then, your "way to go" is the third option down on my list.  I prefer to either win before they get a turn, or to Force it if I lose the coinflip.  Only if those fail does Chain of Vapor come into play.

Lol, off course you try to win before they get the change to drop their Chalice. I ment dealing with them after they hitted play, the inclusion of Chain seems like a step in the right direction to me.

I meant the third option not in terms of the preferred plan, but in how often it really happens.  Ideally any combo deck will want to win first turn.  The difference is the deck I proposed makes that a norm, as opposed to a fluke of luck required for the deck you describe.

Koen, I will agree that LED + Force is not a combo.  However, your Duress + losing the coinflip is not a combo either.

Duress is not a better fit in the deck I proposed.  Let me repeat what I said before: by the time the deck is able to cast sorceries, it would be better to just win.  Force is a better fit because it shores up the deck's biggest weakness - losing the coinflip.  Duress does not.

[Eastman]

Lets not argue... Chalice seriously hurts long.

It may not be pervasive enough to keep post-mirrodin long out of the format.

[Smmenen]

If anyone is curious - I came up with two iterations for Neo-Long.

The first has 4 Force of Wills and 2 Maindeck Hurkyl's Recalls.  The second has the duresses still, but three maindeck Hurklyls.  No need for more land - my origional assumption that Wasteland is going to be everywhere may have been hasty.

Steve

[LoA]

Does that mean Tinker is back in the sideboard?

I've been tooling around with this deck in an effort to gear it up for a sea of Chalices and I've dropped Tinker (to the sideboard), Windfall (completely) and I'm looking for a good 3rd card to move to free up space for Hurkyl's Recall (not an original thought, but probably the best option out there).  Any suggestions?

Current SB:

1x Balance
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Meltdown (very nice)
1x Primitive Justice
1x Simplify
1x Tinker
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Xantid Swarm
1x Regrowth
1x Time Spiral
1x Diminishing Returns (not sure if I need both this and Time Spiral)
1x Vindicate
1x Open\n\n

[Tindemans]

You're dropping cards that can provide you the win against prison decks (namely decks without instants)? once you start draw7'ing there's no real way for artifacts to stop you.
and at that, Tinker really is one of the best draw7's, in my opinion on one line with wheel and twister in this deck.

Wheel cost red
Twister had the usually annoying shuffle effect
Tinker let's you sac an artifact, which is tapped of course and of no use if you'll combo this turn (with a small exception coming from hurkyl's recall), and usually the artifacts won;t matter. it also only really works if you haven't drawn into Jar yet. that's all.
At that you can get a draw7 in play and use it this or you're next turn, even in your upkeep to get 8 cards at hand.

Windfall maybe is an option, since artifact decks can empty their hand rather quickly, however if you want to be able to perform more immediate wins, you should keep it. not untill after turn two Windfall is mostly useless. (It cycles often though   )

[Windfall]

I have no choice but to defend my favorite word (Windfall).  However, I will try to do it effectively.  Let me just say that Windfall is not always the best spark for the fire for Long, but when you are going off, it is golden.  For example, I don't always want it as my first draw-seven, but when I Wheel or Jar into a Windfall it is nice because my opponent will have seven cards in hand after one of those effects.  Not to mention it pitches to FoW if you are playing with them.  The deck is already low on Blue cards and removing them is dangerous.

Quote If anyone is curious - I came up with two iterations for Neo-Long.

I find it funny that you opened this thread and have not really said much recently about the evolution of this deck that you have grown to love.  I would like to hear what you have to say about the newer Long builds featuring Chrome Mox and Spoils of the Vault.

So far, I like what you are saying.  Adding Blue cards is what the deck needs to make FoW worth its 4 slots.  Hurkyl's Recall will be effective in going off (lots of spells and more mana at most times) and in stopping opposing Artifacts like the damn Chalice.  Also, in the mirror or vs. other artifact decks, you can Hurkyl's Recall your opponent in response to a Draw-7 (either yours or theirs) to really screw them up.  Do you think that Chain of Vapor is sub-optimal?  Please, share your thoughts Smmenen.  It was you who got me into this deck and now I am worried about its survival too.    

     ~Mark

[Mordecai]

I have found Chain of Vapor to be extremely useful of late, especially in diversifying answer CCs against the Chalice.  Basically, with Wish-->Primitive Justice, and Chain of Vapor, they need 3 different Chalices out to stop me from going off.  Hurkyl's Recall, though better in most circumstances, doesn't stop you being locked by Chalices at 0 and 2.

Also, I've had some success using the Chain as a mana generator untapping my Academy.

In support of Windfall, also, I would like to point out that Windfall has mad synergy with bouncing opponents permanents, esp. after Wheel or Twister or Jar.  Particularly if you're using Hurkyl's instead of Chain.  (I know, arguing against my own point).

[Windfall]

Quote Also, I've had some success using the Chain as a mana generator untapping my Academy.

Eh?  Chain of Vapor cannot target a Land.

I would say that running 2 or 3 MD Hurkyl's is a viable solution for the time being.  Most likely, the opponent won't have time to cast a Chalice for 2.  I would be more worried about a Chalice set at 1 because that would stop Spoils of the Vault, Brainstorm, and other tutors to help find an answer to the problematic Chalice.  If you have the Recall in hand, you can put the Chalice's comes-into-play ability on the stack and bounce their artifacts before the charge counters are set.  Too bad they may be able to recast because you may return tapped Moxen to hand as well.

Edit: Dante is right (see post below), you can't get around Chalice with a Recall.  How good would Rebuild be in this deck?  It returns all artifacts, which can help you get a mana boost or at least pay for itself.  Against decks that don't threaten you with Chalice, Null Rod, etc, you can just cycle it away.  It seems like a solid choice to me, though the 3cc makes it just a bit worse than Recall perhaps.  Comments?\n\n

[Dante]

Quote (Windfall @ Oct. 16 2003,21:21)If you have the Recall in hand, you can put the Chalice's comes-into-play ability on the stack and bounce their artifacts before the charge counters are set.  

I don't think Chalice works that way.  The way I read it, there is no "come into play ability".

Chalice of the Void reads, "Chalice of the Void comes into play with X charge counters on it. Whenever a player plays a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Chalice of the Void, counter that spell."

From the rules, "Comes-into-play abilities trigger when a permanent enters the in-play zone. These are written, “When [this card] comes into play, . . . “ or “Whenever a [type] comes into play, . . .” Each time an event puts one or more permanents into play, all permanents in play (including the newcomers) are checked for any comes-into-play triggers that match the event."

Chalice doesn't have "whenever", "when" or "at", so there is not triggered ability of counters going on the stack, the artifact comes into play with those counters and once it resolves, the counters are already there.

Dante

[LoA]

It was a mistake to pull those cards, although now I'm back to sqaure one in terms of maindeck solutions for the CotV in game 1.  I'm using this as a test deck right now, so it probably needs some tuning:

Mana (31)
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Dark Ritual
3x Chromatic Sphere
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
7x SoLoMoxen
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Underground Sea
1x Tolarian Academy

Red (5)
4x Burning Wish
1x Wheel of Fortune

Black (10)
4x Duress
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Necropotence
1x Yawgmoth's Bargain

Blue (13)
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Timetwister
1x Windfall
1x Tinker
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Mind's Desire
4x Brainstorm
2x Hurkyl's Recall

Artifact (1)
1x Memory Jar

Sideboard (15)
1x Balance
3x Xantid Swarm
1x Detonate (pretty much for CotV only)
1x Hull Breach
1x Simplify
1x Primitive Justice
1x Firebolt (Meddling Mage--I would probably add Swarms to any SBing vs. decks packing Mage so Balance isn't so good)
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Regrowth
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Yawgmoth's Will
2x Test\n\n

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Windfall @ Oct. 16 2003,19:21)

Quote Also, I've had some success using the Chain as a mana generator untapping my Academy.

Eh?  Chain of Vapor cannot target a Land.

You bounce one of your own permanents, then sac Academy to copy it, then play Will and replay Academy.

 

[Smmenen]

Quote (Windfall @ Oct. 16 2003,08:10)

Quote If anyone is curious - I came up with two iterations for Neo-Long.

I find it funny that you opened this thread and have not really said much recently about the evolution of this deck that you have grown to love.  I would like to hear what you have to say about the newer Long builds featuring Chrome Mox and Spoils of the Vault.

So far, I like what you are saying.  Adding Blue cards is what the deck needs to make FoW worth its 4 slots.  Hurkyl's Recall will be effective in going off (lots of spells and more mana at most times) and in stopping opposing Artifacts like the damn Chalice.  Also, in the mirror or vs. other artifact decks, you can Hurkyl's Recall your opponent in response to a Draw-7 (either yours or theirs) to really screw them up.  Do you think that Chain of Vapor is sub-optimal?  Please, share your thoughts Smmenen.  It was you who got me into this deck and now I am worried about its survival too.    

     ~Mark

ok .  I thought you played control, windfall .

My thoughts are simply that I am too scared to run this deck at a serious tournament.  I have been working on other decks and ideas recently, so I haven't had a chance to test it with Spoils.  I was waiting to see if the community came to a consensus as a way to save me time.

Unfortunately, I've been receiving messages, emails, PMs from people wanting to know what I think of the new cards, when I was hoping that you might help me.  I was hoping to save some time.

Since no clear consensus has emeraged, here are my thoughts.  

Spoils
Obviously this is a broken card.  And I beleive it when people say that it accelerates the deck even further.  However, there are some questions that need to be answered.  Is speeding up the deck what this deck really needs?  Or does it need a boost in power/answers (FoW/Hurkyls) to best foil the Chalice enviornment?  

Second, despite the claims, i am still a little wary that Spoils functions smoothly.  I feel like there just aren't enough good targets: LeD, Wish, Dark Ritual, Duress, and that's about it.  I can understand how you can get so much faster, but one problem I have with spoils is that I'm not sure you can cast it twice.  If you spoils, sac LED in response, and cast burning wish for Will, I would feel uncomfortable casting spoils again since you could very well die.  Then anything with burn, a few points of damage, pillar, all these becomes brutal threats.  

I also hate losing Bargain as a win condition.

I tinkered around with Dutch Tendrils and finally decided that I wouldn't want to play that deck instead of Long with Hurkly's or FoWs or Both.  

I would love to have FOW be better than Duress, as I hate that Duress actually costs you mana.  My problem with FoW is simply that, like Koen, I'm concerned that you either won't have a card to pitch, or won't want to pitch a card since this deck relies on each card so much.  I'm willing to be persuaded about new changes, but I'm not sold that my own suggestions are just as good.  I did a few games with 2-3 Hurklyl's and they were amazing at answering Sphere/Chalice, but more than that - they also helped me win a few games by actually giving me more mana and upped my storm count.  

Steve

[Eastman]

Stephen we've tested spoils and it is hardly broken. It is far too likely to kill you to be worth using. We tested a FoW/spoils build that was just terrible compared to more classic long.

So let that save you some time... Spoils is a no go.\n\n

[Windfall]

Quote ok .  I thought you played control, windfall .

Haha, I do play control, but I love combo.  I think it's cool that you remember me from the Basic User sector!  In appreciation of that, let me just say that I really enjoy reading your stuff here and at Star City.  You really know what you're talking about and you're a good writer to boot.  I can appreciate good talent.

Quote Unfortunately, I've been receiving messages, emails, PMs from people wanting to know what I think of the new cards, when I was hoping that you might help me.  I was hoping to save some time.

Well, you do write articles on how to beat the hard matchups with this deck.  We were hoping you would verify our ideas a bit.  I still play a classic version of long but I'm looking for a way to fit in Hurkyl's or Rebuild.

I'm not sure that the Spoils will be a huge bomb for the deck simply because it does cost you lots of life and more speed isn't really the concern for the deck.  You can almost always win turn 2 if you think about your options.  The problem is staring down a Sphere of Resistance, Null Rod, or Chalice.  I think that once the Chalice is played in my group I will have to add some bounce or die.  I can't decide on whether I would prefer to use FoW or Duress.  I guess I will test both as soon as I get my hands on some more BB Recalls.  I'm also trying to get some Chrome Moxen to try out as well.  I'm not sure they will be as good as I hope for the same reason FoW is risky - you just need to cast all your spells.

Does anyone have any thoughts about pulling the 2 Underground Seas for 2 Glimmervoids?  Having mana of any color can make a difference in that it gives you the ability to play that Burning Wish to win the game 1 turn earlier sometimes.  It is seldom, but it does happen that I have no Red mana to Wish for Will.

     ~Mark

[Soupboy]

I'm not having any luck finding a rules page that has sufficient information, so I'll ask my question here:  If you imprint a card onto a Chrome Mox and then remove it from play, with something silly like Hurkyl's Recall, what happens to the removed card?  

My assumption is that the removed card will stay removed and you'll need to imprint something else for the Mox to work.  Has this been a factor at all in using Recall to generate more mana?   Although, I believe you can drop it without an Imprint to use for Storm count...

Of course, at first I had forgotten that Recall said "target player" and not "all players," which, would have been much more devasting to Chrome Mox, of course

The Soup

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Soupboy @ Oct. 18 2003,07:15)I'm not having any luck finding a rules page that has sufficient information, so I'll ask my question here:  If you imprint a card onto a Chrome Mox and then remove it from play, with something silly like Hurkyl's Recall, what happens to the removed card?  

My assumption is that the removed card will stay removed and you'll need to imprint something else for the Mox to work.  Has this been a factor at all in using Recall to generate more mana?   Although, I believe you can drop it without an Imprint to use for Storm count...

Of course, at first I had forgotten that Recall said "target player" and not "all players," which, would have been much more devasting to Chrome Mox, of course

The Soup

When you imprint a card on Chrome Mox, if it ever leaves play (except via phasing) the the Imprint ability is lost and the imprinted card stays RFG'd.  If Chrome Mox comes back into play Imprint triggers again.

If you fetch the Imprinted card with a Wish, then Chrome Mox loses its ability and can no longer provide mana.

You do not have to imprint a card on Chrome Mox if you don't want to.

@Eastman

Spoils is Consult 2-5.  Sure, it's going to crap all over you every so often, but the majority of the time it simply makes the deck obscenely fast and brutal.  To make Spoils effective, it helps to have faith in it - I garner from your post that you tried it a little bit, it bit you in the ass, and you got fed up - which is exactly what happens to many people with Consult.  No offense, but I also sincerely doubt that your "testing" amounts to nearly the amount of thought and energy Rico put into his build.

In other words, your post proves nothing more than my statement above, because you lack the cold facts to support it.  In the future, please elaborate.  We all know that we start with 20 life, and that Spoils often takes any where from a third to half of that total with each use, and with crap luck, outright kills you.

edit - cleaned up Chrome Mox explanation.\n\n

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Windfall @ Oct. 18 2003,10:03)I'm not sure that the Spoils will be a huge bomb for the deck simply because it does cost you lots of life and more speed isn't really the concern for the deck.  You can almost always win turn 2 if you think about your options.  The problem is staring down a Sphere of Resistance, Null Rod, or Chalice.  I think that once the Chalice is played in my group I will have to add some bounce or die.  I can't decide on whether I would prefer to use FoW or Duress.  I guess I will test both as soon as I get my hands on some more BB Recalls.  I'm also trying to get some Chrome Moxen to try out as well.  I'm not sure they will be as good as I hope for the same reason FoW is risky - you just need to cast all your spells.

The solution I came up with is add all of the above.  Spoils/C.Mox, Force, and bounce make quite a nifty team.

As far as Spoils is concerned, what I've learned is that the more a person plays Spoils, the better they become with it, and therefore the better the deck performs.

I've expressed in the past that if Spoils is terrible, it's a reflection of who is playing it, and not the card.

[Smmenen]

But you haven't addressed the issues I Rico in my last post.  I would love to hear you address them.

Steve

[Mordecai]

Quote (Windfall @ Oct. 16 2003,19:21)

Quote Also, I've had some success using the Chain as a mana generator untapping my Academy.

Eh?  Chain of Vapor cannot target a Land.

So what you're saying is, "nonland permanent" and "land" are different things?

Hmmm...either that or you're saying that reading a card is a good thing...

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 17 2003,16:42)Spoils
Obviously this is a broken card.  And I beleive it when people say that it accelerates the deck even further.  However, there are some questions that need to be answered.  Is speeding up the deck what this deck really needs?  Or does it need a boost in power/answers (FoW/Hurkyls) to best foil the Chalice enviornment?  

Well, my answer to that is it needs both.  

Quote Second, despite the claims, i am still a little wary that Spoils functions smoothly.  I feel like there just aren't enough good targets: LeD, Wish, Dark Ritual, Duress, and that's about it.  I can understand how you can get so much faster, but one problem I have with spoils is that I'm not sure you can cast it twice.  If you spoils, sac LED in response, and cast burning wish for Will, I would feel uncomfortable casting spoils again since you could very well die.  Then anything with burn, a few points of damage, pillar, all these becomes brutal threats.

Those targets you mention are all that are really needed.  Although, I would add Chrome Mox and Xantid Swarm to that list too.

Spoils cannot always be cast twice, but for the most part it very well can be.  I've seen the number seven used as an average for the life loss of Spoils, and that's not too far off.  I disagree with the mathematical "statistics" I've seen around here about Spoils, because they are statistics that would be true if this deck were played by a machine, and not by a mind.

Oh, and there is always trickery like Brainstorm.

Quote I also hate losing Bargain as a win condition.

Understandable.  

The only thing I can say is that Bargain is 6 mana.  Otherwise, I don't tutor for it because Mind's Desire is my target if I have 6 mana.

Quote I would love to have FOW be better than Duress, as I hate that Duress actually costs you mana.  My problem with FoW is simply that, like Koen, I'm concerned that you either won't have a card to pitch, or won't want to pitch a card since this deck relies on each card so much.  I'm willing to be persuaded about new changes, but I'm not sold that my own suggestions are just as good.  I did a few games with 2-3 Hurklyl's and they were amazing at answering Sphere/Chalice, but more than that - they also helped me win a few games by actually giving me more mana and upped my storm count.  

I won't disagree that your plan of attack isn't good, because I use it.

There is a Chain of Vapor in the list I posted, which could very well turn into Hurkyl's or whatever.  I don't think it would be too hard to fit in extra Hurkyl's either, because they'd accompany Force very nicely.  In fact, I could see cutting the 4th Spoils for an extra bounce slot, if one were so inclined.

[aargyle]

Losing the bargain does suck. You are right, I never tutor for it either, but I have dropped it turn one (and won, of course). It is a win condition, and I would rather not take it out. Honestly, I would rather lose necro than bargain. Necro is another card I never tutor for: And honestly, if you get BBB you often have BBB + 3 and can cast something better. Not that I haven't won because of necro also.

I would like to hear what more people plan on doing when chalice comes out? This weekend, my friend and I both played it. We were uncertain if the shop would rule break and allow chalice, so we were simply going to go maindeck:

-4 duress
+4 FoW

But I am totally for the suggestion of adding recalls main, taking what out? Perhaps
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Chromatic Sphere (I was running 4)
-1 Tinker (I was running it main)

for 3x recall? This solution didn't add much blue for pitches, however.


And lastly: an aside...
  
    I really do hope wizards does something to hose this deck. I'm going to play it untill they restrict wish (and still play it, most likely) or lion's eye (hey, it's wotc) or something else. This deck leaves me feeling dirty like no other deck has ever done, and I am a combo player at heart.

   I have never felt worse than this weekend, when the first opponent I sit down against (who looks about 7) relays these comments in about this order:

"Where do you want to battle?"
"Now I have to decide which deck to play you with first!"
"We draw 7 cards, right?"
"How is your life at 30? Oh, that's how much mana you have?"
"Which of these cards is giving you more mana?" (answer: all of them)
"What is happening? My head hurts!"
"I'm dead again already?"

When a better opponent cheered that he managed to cast one spell in two games (a duress), it didn't make me feel better.

[Montana_Gamer]

I went with Aargyle to this tournament, and we just tore up the field, although i lost in the quarterfinals to a janky keeper build because i didn't mulligan hands that i should have. I beat the guy in the regular rounds though.

And like aargyle i think this deck is way to strong, and i think that something needs to be done about it.

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (aargyle @ Oct. 20 2003,11:30)This deck leaves me feeling dirty like no other deck has ever done, and I am a combo player at heart.
...
When a better opponent cheered that he managed to cast one spell in two games (a duress), it didn't make me feel better.

Long isn't the only "broken/tier 1/degenerate" combo deck in the current card pool, and that "makes me feel dirty" saying is getting a trifle overused.  Simple fact is that people don't play decks they don't like.  Also, I still don't see Long dominating major tournaments, either stateside or across the pond.

If I were running short on room due to an increased supply of cheap and effective tutors, I would cut Bargain before Necro, due to it being as effective for half the mana (and getting around crap like Underworld Dreams/Chains of Mephistopheles).  Bargain may be a "win condition", but a greater tutor density makes having to run counterable, nigh-untutorable, and extremely expensive draw unnecessary.

That said, I still play Bargain.

[Smmenen]

VGB: that's fascinating that you say you don't see it dominating.

I am actually a little disturbed becuase ever since Gencon, I feel like there has been an increasing chaos in terms of community consensus.  This may be paired to the near death of the paragons, but I am upset becuase I feel like my views aren't playing out as perfectly as they were before in the tournament results I see.

Right after my post with Diminishing returns in this thread, I decided I would refrain from posting in this thread becuase I finally realized just how sick the deck was.

In my honest opinion, Long is the most degenerate deck I have ever played.  I don't say that lightly.  But yet, I see people who I respect seem to misvalue the deck.  Three or four people have said that dragon is a better deck.  And other person said that inasfar as broken combo decks go, Long is a "floppy pussy."  

To be honest, I'm flabbergasted by this kind of reaction.  In my mind it really can't get more degenerate than this deck.  
I didn't play from late1996 to mid 2000, so I didn't get to see all the really sick decks.  But at one point in the not so recent past I got a chance to play unrestricted Academy, and to be completely honest, it really wasn't that far off from this deck.  It wins without about the same frequency on turn one.  Both decks are equally hosed by Chalice.  And so on, etc.

While I've been extremely pleased to see some metagames rapidly use Long - CrazyCarl's report, Hawks' report, etc - I am shocked that it has not caught on more.  

I am also shocked that people consider Dragon a deck that is even close to Long in terms of its Pre-Mirrodin strength.  I am the last person to under-estimate Dragon.  Any deck that has a combo that just says: I Win is pretty ridiculous.  And while Dragon is really consistent, I just cannot abide by the statement that it is more consistent than Long.

I honestly think that there is something wrong with Vintage in that Long isn't dominating.  I have several suspicions as to why: first of all, when people first test the deck, they come with some pre-conceptions and when the deck doesn't work like they want, they quickly give it up.  Let me explain, I heard Matt Smith tell me that he lost 9 out of 11 games to sligh with Long.  I was like, WTF?  When I talked with him further, it became evident that he was playing the deck like an academy deck instead of a I Win Now deck.  He would tutor up Twister, for example, something I never do.  So I think related to this is that Long is difficult to play correctly - unlike most of the degenerate decks we've had, Long actually takes a good time commitment to master, and I think most of the type one community just can't put in that kind of effort.  But once you master it, you got it.  It's like riding a bike - that's the thing I think most poeple miss.

I'm tempted to really try and continue to break the hell out of long post mirrodin simply becuase I want to Pown people with it.  I'm more than a little dissapointed that it hasn't dominated, while it certainly has done well.

I went to a Beta Sapphire Tourney at one point early Sept, and I was debating whether to take Tog or Long, and my teammates were screaming at me to take long.  They were totally right.  This is the most degenerate deck.  

This deck is probably 2.5 times as strong as GroAtog ever was.  And more than that, I will end with this:

Lion's Eye Diamond is a better card that Mishra's Workshop  

I play LEDs in this deck like they are Lotuses.  The restriction of discarding your hand is less than the restriction of getting colorless mana.  Further, the fact that it is an artifact and that you can replay it, and use it with Yawgmoth's Will ramps up storm count and makes it even more broken.  In my mind this is a LED/Yawgmoth's Will deck.  So I will try and spend some time tinkering with a post mirrodin build, although right now I'm very enamoured with Dragon and a new variant of Stax I've cooked up.

Stephen Menendian

[Dante]

Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 20 2003,20:52)So I will try and spend some time tinkering with a post mirrodin build, although right now I'm very enamoured with Dragon and a new variant of Stax I've cooked up.

I'm curious - if long is the most degenerate deck you've seen and you want to build/tune/play the best deck possible at the time, why would you tinker with anything else?

Bill