Perfecting Long's Burning Desire

[Kaervek]

Quote Cutting duresses sure doesn't give you a higher threat density against control, Duress is a threat against them,

Yes. I'd never cut Duress, since you need it to make sure you have a gameplan against control other than completely random wins.

However, Duress is, IMO, the worst card in the deck. You know you kinda need to run it, but you really don't want to. It's lke a Time Walk for your opponent. Turn 1 Duress is not as good a plan as it sounds. Sure, you can get rid of a decent card, with any luck, a Rod or Pillar or Chains. Or a FoW, to set up your combo on turn 2. But even if you hit bullseye like that you still:
- put yourself in a position where you probably can't go combo nuts on turn 1.
- have absolutely nothing to say about what they do on their next turn. They topdeck some good hate? You roll over and die.

I agree you can't really cut Duress from the MD, but it sure as hell is useful to have a FoW to back it up.

Which is the ONE issue with this deck IMO, that keeps it from breaking the format. It's lightning fast, and the wins can be focused or completely random. But it can also just die against ONE card. I'd be willing to trade some of the speed for some of the resilience FoW offers. Ofcourse: what to cut, what to cut.....and yeah, the amount of Blue cards in the deck doesn't support FoW either...oh well.

[VideoGameBoy]

If you want to play Force of Will, play The Shining.  The engine of this deck leaves no room for the blue commitment to play it.

Force of Will as the only control in a combo deck doesn't let you win counter-wars, anyways, and every non-control deck should already roll to this one.  Anybody who weilds this deck should be resigned to the fact that it is playing with fire.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote Shall I refer you to the third place deck at Berlin, Thug?  Admittedly, he plays Xantid Swarm maindeck, but I would rather not waste slots to creatures that pollute my mana base, give my opponent targets for their removal, and force me to wait for it to become active.  I have Defense Grid sideboarded if that is necessary, and Tinker to reliably fetch it

Swarms give him more disruption then you have...

But that's not really what I'm posting for. I think I understand the logic nbehind using Swarm over Duress.

Quote Yes. I'd never cut Duress, since you need it to make sure you have a gameplan against control other than completely random wins.

However, Duress is, IMO, the worst card in the deck.

a) MD removal is at an all time low. They're not very likely to be removed soon, meaning it'll at least catch a counter if available. (Hulk has 0, Shining has 1, only Keeper (3) and UrPhid (2-6, depending on the build) play more atm)
b) In game one you worry about FoW, mostly. Swarm is a better solution to counters than Duress will ever be, as it helps against multiple FOWs.
c) All builds keep the Duress they remove from the MD in the SB. MY rasoning for this would be like that: In game 1 Swarm is regularly better than Duress, as it stops counters better. In game 2 opponents are likely to have boarded hate they didn't want to play MD. (Null Rod, Chains of Mephistopheles, Pyrostatic Pillar...) Against that kind of card Duress is your best protection, as you don't have enough U-cards to support FoW. This means pre-board Swarm > Duress while post-board Duress > Swarm.
d) Swarm does close to nothing against non-control decks but beats control decks. As noncontrol decks are quite dead against this deck (it's faster than both aggro and other combo) before SBing, Swarms seems to improve the hard matchup more than Duress while ignoring your good matchups.

This logic seems quite sound to me, which is why I think the players from Minden modified Longs deck in the way they did. I'm quite interested what all of you think about this and I do think Swarm MD might be superior to Duress MD.

In addition, Swarms are better than Defense Grid, as the opponent might well be able to get 3 mana on his 2nd turn, which could often be enough to stop you. Not to mention that I don't think anyone wants to keep creature removal against a combo-deck that plays just three creatures.

on a related note:

Quote I have Defense Grid sideboarded if that is necessary, and Tinker to reliably fetch it.

Who doesn't counter Tinker against this deck? I do try to counter the draw7s, and anyway, if Tinker resolves I'd usually just get Jar and finish them off....

[VideoGameBoy]

I am not disputing the effectiveness of Xantid Swarm, as it is obviously a proven metagame decision.  I am just debating whether it is warranted in an optimal build, and whether it should just be footnoted as a card noteworthy in the context of a control-heavy meta.

Quote Who doesn't counter Tinker against this deck? I do try to counter the draw7s, and anyway, if Tinker resolves I'd usually just get Jar and finish them off....

Jar is by far the worst draw seven - it often proves useless if I have already had a land drop, and often results in me just passing the turn and dumping 6-7 cards in my graveyard.  In the pecking order of cards to cut, Jar is one of the first to go; as much is evinced by my Burning Rectal Agony build.

Jar is only reliable with the proper support, such as having mana available prior to saccing it; I am also leery of using LED in response to its activation, since you have the potential of ending your turn devoid of a hand entirely (which has happened a few times - I'm OK with manaburn, as long as I don't lose my hand, too).

Control is often a tough matchup, but my draw and threat density usually suffices to overcome it, since I draw more and topdeck better.  Post-sideboard I have Negator, Defense Grid, maindecked Tendrils, and additional Duresses as options.

[Smmenen]

I wouldn't say that Jar is "by far" the worst draw 7.  I think Windfall, alot of times, can be worse.  I have almost always been very pleased with Jar.  i ALWAYS sac LED in response to jar unless my non jar hand is totally juicy.  BTW, VGB, saccing LED for Black is more correct than wrong, not blue.  With Black you have far more tutors: Demonic Consult, Vamp, DT and those outwiegh Brainstorms.  Also you have Duress, etc.  So you may only need one blue (which you can get off a sphere), but you may need more than one black.  


Re: Xantid Swarm
The inclusion of Duress over swarm is more than just a metagame call, it's this close to being strictly better.  The reason is that the biggest threat to this deck isn't Control decks.  It's specific hate: Null Rod, Sphere, Pillar, Arcane Lab, etc.  In combination with a good SB, Duress helps enormously to bolster that.  Further, Duress is great against other combo decks, ensuring that you win that race.  Swarm is more narrow.  I have tinkered around with various builds in our testing, and very early on we rejected the MD swarms.

I might play MD swarm if I lived in one of those crazy NE US tourney areas where people still play lots of non-tog control and virtually no Workshop decks.

BTW,  I have made a TON of progress on the deck including some revolutionary discoveries (well some people I know made them) that I will be posting on soon.

Steve\n\n

[Thug]

Quote Jar is by far the worst draw seven

Quote I wouldn't say that Jar is "by far" the worst draw 7

I would almost say Jar is the best draw-seven. It has very important advanteges:

- You can wait a turn to untap your mana. This also means you can easily drop it with no mana left.
- Your opponent will never be able to use his new cards in his own turn.

Windfall is clearly the worst draw-seven, cause it is like the only that gets worse if your opponent mulligans    
(Black Vise is another one)

Wheel and Twister are very close is power lever. They both have an advantage over the other:

- Twister is blue and thus easier to cast.
- Wheel does not shuffle back the grave and does thus not ruin your Will.


Regarding Swarms vs. Duresses. I think it's very metagame dependend, but overall I think the Duresses are slightly better, you forgot to mention some of the advantegous:

- It's black, bot green, and thus easier castable.
- It's does it job imediatly and not a turn later, meaning it's also useful in your combo turn.

Koen

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Smmenen @ Aug. 28 2003,14:26)I wouldn't say that Jar is "by far" the worst draw 7.  I think Windfall, alot of times, can be worse.  I have almost always been very pleased with Jar.  i ALWAYS sac LED in response to jar unless my non jar hand is totally juicy.  BTW, VGB, saccing LED for Black is more correct than wrong, not blue.  With Black you have far more tutors: Demonic Consult, Vamp, DT and those outwiegh Brainstorms.  Also you have Duress, etc.  So you may only need one blue (which you can get off a sphere), but you may need more than one black.  


Re: Xantid Swarm
The inclusion of Duress over swarm is more than just a metagame call, it's this close to being strictly better.  The reason is that the biggest threat to this deck isn't Control decks.  It's specific hate: Null Rod, Sphere, Pillar, Arcane Lab, etc.  In combination with a good SB, Duress helps enormously to bolster that.  Further, Duress is great against other combo decks, ensuring that you win that race.  Swarm is more narrow.  I have tinkered around with various builds in our testing, and very early on we rejected the MD swarms.

I might play MD swarm if I lived in one of those crazy NE US tourney areas where people still play lots of non-tog control and virtually no Workshop decks.

BTW,  I have made a TON of progress on the deck including some revolutionary discoveries (well some people I know made them) that I will be posting on soon.

Steve

I vastly prefer Windfall to Jar, as it is cheaper, doesn't nuke my hand when my luck is shit, and invariably yields 5+ cards for 3 mana.  It has always been especially juicy following another draw seven or when I have Bargain in play.

Re: Saccing LED "blindly"

Blue numerically outnumbers black in my build by one.  That isn't even the main reason I prefer blue, since the majority of tutors and draw in the deck is blue, outnumbering black over 2 to 1 (12:5).  Most of the time I Brainstorm after draw seven/LED to potentially draw into more mana/draw to optimize my hand.

As for new "tech" Smmenen, deck design tends to go in circles.  I wouldn't be surprised if the discussion meanders back into the reintroduction of Hurkl's or Meditate, or even using cards like Overmaster and Force of Will.

Re: Swarm

I toyed with it momentarily, and found it completely unnecessary.  That is due to my meta though (which is control heavy), so I really can't make any solid determinations.

[Smmenen]

No one has touched this card I bet - since it has been overlooked for years.  I have been doing ALOT of real life testing recently.  A post I deleted a few days ago is only a small sample of the kind of testing and recording I do.  

I was at Kevin Cron's house and he suggested the new card, which you'll be stunned by.

Revised List: 8/28/03
4 Burning Wish
4 LED
5 Moxen
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea
4 Chromatic Sphere

4 Duress
4 Brainstorm

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
1 Mind's Desire
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Memory Jar
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Time Spiral (almost never used) - testing
1 Doomsday - still in testing
3 Xantic Swarm
1 Balance -  never used, but who knows
1 Primitive Justice
1 Simplify**
1 Hull Breach**
1 Regrowth
3 Open Slots

We are trying Diminishing Returns as the SB draw 7. If the marginal  difference in the casting cost makes no difference, it might be a permanent change. When you wish for it, there is a very slight chance that all three other wishes, and the Tendrils are in the top 10 cards. So it seems like an almost natural inclusion.

And: It could even potentially help you to remove some card!! I do that trick all the time with Consult.  Remove a draw 7 and fetch it out.

I have moved the Tinker maindeck and I love it.  What Keon says is dead on.  Jar is a draw 7 that can sit in play if you want.  

I'm trying to think: how does the "doomsday scenario" play out?  With Returns and Doomsday, I think I have enough goodies in the board to make up for moving tinker to the MD.  (Btw, I love saying "doomsday scenario" )

Stephen Menendian\n\n

[VideoGameBoy]

@Smennen

Deck design came full circle, then.

Take a look here, paying particular note to comment 13, last edited on 7/11.  I tried D.R. for a while, but cut it for the same reasons I cut Demonic Consultation; I wasn't really all that familiar with the deck and it seemed too risky scalping 10 cards.  Now that you bring it back up, the card seems tech.\n\n

[Vegeta2711]

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=8512;hl=thug

Also played here. Though a different deck, same concept.

Revolution is slow to catch up, neh?

[jdl]

First off, I love this deck.  I've been playing it solo and in regular testing, and it's amazing.  I really like how play skill makes a huge difference in the outcome of the game.  (This is also the reason that I've never ever touched a Dragon deck.)

However, I've basically decided that the versions being posted here can not beat MUD.  It's just not possible to win with any consistancy against turn 1 Sphere of Resistance.  The smart MUD player mulligans for this, and plays very aggresively to get this card down.

To compensate, I've been playing with 3x Hurkyl's Recall in the main deck.  If you take the last list posted by Smmenen, I have something very close to the following.

-1 Tinker
-1 Tendrils
-1 Duress
+3 Hurkyl's Recall

Now, the bonus of Hurkyl's is that it's not a dead card even if they aren't playing artifacts.  Think it was easy to crank out 9 spells before?  It's like you lit your deck on fire with this card added.  Not only do you get bonus spells, but you very often gain mana by playing the Hurkyl's on yourself.

Some other notes:
- I use Time Spiral all the time.  I love this card in the SB.
- It's "Xantid" not "Xantic".
- I haven't tried Doomsday yet, but that's next on my list.
- I'm still looking for 4-5 more SB cards to help against MUD.  Sacred Ground is high on my list right now.  I need to playtest more and I'll get back to you on this one.

Random playtest note:
As I said before, it's the skill part of playing this monster that attracts me to it.  I can see myself get better every time I make a mistake or discover something new.  This may be obvious to some, but I'll share one of these moments from a recent test game (vs Welder MUD as it so happens, although that doesn't really matter in this example).

I had already cast a buttload of spells this turn, but I was somehow running out of gas.  No mana in my pool. My untapped permanents included  2xLED, and a Chromatic Sphere.  I had just resolved a Brainstorm.  My hand before putting the two cards back included a Burning Wish, Demonic Consultation, and other random crap.  Now, I didn't make the right play, but I saw it immediately after finishing my Brainstorm.  This is what I should have done to end the game right then.

Put back my two cards from Brainstorm with the Burning Wish on top of my deck.  Sacrifice one LED for BBB and one for RRR.  Run a mana through the Chromatic Sphere to draw the Wish, and go get the Tendrils.

It's simple in retrospect, but it's one of the things that isn't obvious immediately about the deck.  This is especially true when you have many other permanents and an opponent to cloud your thinking.  The synnergy between some of the cards, in this case Brainstorm, LED, and Chromatic Sphere, is really amazing sometimes.

-- Jim

[theorigamist]

Quote This is what I should have done to end the game right then.

Put back my two cards from Brainstorm with the Burning Wish on top of my deck.  Sacrifice one LED for BBB and one for RRR.  Run a mana through the Chromatic Sphere to draw the Wish, and go get the Tendrils.

More precisely, you should have gotten UUUBBB and used Chromatic Sphere to get the only red you needed, because red mana is less generally useful than blue or black.  If the opponent had done anything, you'd have been better off with mana you could use.

[jdl]

That's a really good point.   UUUBBB would most definitely be superior to RRRBBB over the set of all matchups.  In that case, I was playing vs. MUD, so it didn't really matter.  Still, it would be a good habit to always make the most optimal play in all situations.

-- Jim

[VideoGameBoy]

I decided to try out some of the changes for myself, and so far I have come to the conclusion that the more familiar you are with the deck, the more you realize what cards are crutches and what actually improves the quality of the deck and improves its matchups.

This is my current build:

Burning Desire by V.G.B.

Lands - 11
2 x Polluted Delta
2 x Bloodstained Mire
2 x Underground Sea
1 x Volcanic Island
1 x Badlands
2 x Gemstone Mine
1 x Tolarian Academy

Artifacts - 19
4 x Chromatic Sphere
4 x Lion's Eye Diamond
7 x SoLoMoxen
1 x Memory Jar
1 x Mana Crypt
1 x Mana Vault
1 x Lotus Petal

Spells - 28
1 x Ancestral Recall
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Burning Wish
4 x Dark Ritual
1 x Demonic Consultation
1 x Demonic Tutor
3 x Duress
1 x Frantic Search
1 x Mind's Desire
1 x Mystical Tutor
1 x Tendrils of Agony
1 x Timetwister
1 x Time Walk
1 x Tinker
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Wheel of Fortune
1 x Windfall

Enchantments - 2
1 x Necropotence
1 x Yawgmoth's Bargain

SB - 15
3 x Phyrexian Negator
1 x Balance
1 x Diminishing Returns
2 x Hurkyl's Recall
1 x Time Spiral
1 x Duress
1 x Mind Twist
1 x Tendrils of Agony
1 x Yawgmoth's Will
1 x Primitive Justice
1 x Vindicate
1 x Defense Grid

Tinker has been serving well maindeck - in 20 playtest games it was in my hand the same time as Memory Jar twice, but it served just as well to fetch Lotus instead to fix mana or set up for Will.

I haven't run into a scenario yet where I wish Diminishing Returns had been Tinker - Will still serves as the primary fetch, but the one time in the 20 games I did use D.R., it scalped 2 x Wish and Tendrils, but one Wish was left in my library, so the outcome wasn't effected.  I am still amazed by how this deck can so effortlessly lose cards to Consultation and Diminishing Returns and still function as normal.

Helm is completely unnecessary.  As my skill with the deck has grown, so has my ability to more effectively ration mana usage.  The fact still remains that Helm could be a key utility card in combatting Sphere of Resistance.  I replaced its slot with Mana Vault, and it seems to be working well.

I have decided to include Hurkyl's Recall sideboard; MUD and Stax will simply pulverize this deck if you try to use sorcery speed removal.  Hurkyl's actually has synergy with the deck and can turn games versus workshop decks around.  Vindicate and Primitive Justice remain as fetchable removal.

I cut a Gemstone Mine to try out an 11 land mana base, and am shocked like the proverbial monkey that it has been absolutely painless.  When I shuffle, I pile shuffle once, riffle shuffle 8 times, then cut.

I upped Duress to 3 simply because the arguments have won me over, and it is at least now fetchable with Consultation.\n\n

[Smmenen]

I think you should have added Mana Vault a long time ago.  
 I see you have adopted some of my suggestions as I adopted yours .

But I do perfectly understand some of your points you tried to make.  For example, I think your point about "knowing" what is a crutch and what isn't is a very interesting one.  I almost feel that Duress is, in some ways, a crutch.  Let me explain.

Sometimes I feel that I have Duress instead of a business spell.  And so instead of Duressing away a key card or a counter, and thus losing time, I could be playing a spell that may or may not be countered for the same effect.  However, I think, in the end, this view is totally wrong.  

Do you think the Negators are necessary?  

To whomever brought up the point about Hurkyl's recently v. Welder Mud.  My play experience has been, in most testing, almost dead even with Welder Mud.  That has changed with Primitive Justice.   I tested Hurkyl's and it wasn't good at all.  I was very dissapointed.  Hull Breach has been good so far, as has Simplify.  I think the Sorcery Speed is just fine against Stax and Welder MUD becuase usually there is only one key card you need to take out: Sphere.  If they have multiple sphere's your dead anyway.  

I was also wondering if Erik, JDL, and theorigimast might post their decklists and/ or SBs (preferrably the latter if you don't want to post your list).


Steve\n\n

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote Do you think the Negators are necessary?

Since control is this deck's worse matchup, why not punish the control player for not playing creature and damage spells?  Negators steal games against control, again and again.

Quote To whomever brought up the point about Hurkyl's recently v. Welder Mud.  My play experience has been, in most testing, almost dead even with Welder Mud.  That has changed with Primitive Justice.   I tested Hurkyl's and it wasn't good at all.  I was very dissapointed.  Hull Breach has been good so far, as has Simplify.  I think the Sorcery Speed is just fine against Stax and Welder MUD becuase usually there is only one key card you need to take out: Sphere.  If they have multiple sphere's your dead anyway.

If you are locked out (Wire+Stack+Sphere), Primitive Justice is worthless.  Hurkyl's can be especially vicious against MUD due to them using Grafted Skullcap, and replaying Moxen with Hurkyl's has great synergy with maindecked Tendrils.

If Sphere is the main target, then why aren't you using Crumble instead of Simplify/Hull Breach?  Hull Breach's casting cost is a little too exotic for my mana base, but I guess it looks cool.\n\n

[Smmenen]

Because Crumble is an Instant, Naja. The entire point of Justice is to Wish it out.  Same with Hull Breach and Simplify.  Also, this technology has been well tested.  Moreover, I have tested Recall.  It is garbage.  I was really upset about it.  All I ever wanted was Justice in my board.

What I was getting at with the Negator comment was an attempt to figure out why you use that over, oh say, Xantid Swarm.  It is incredibly apparent to me that the biggest threat to this deck from a control deck is Hulk which has 4 Duress and 4 FoW ontop of Mind Twist, and 4 Drains.  Point being that Negator SUCKS against Hulk.  I think Swarm is just better.  Prove me wrong.


Steve\n\n

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Smmenen @ Sep. 02 2003,07:15)Because Crumble is an Instant, Naja. The entire point of Justice is to Wish it out.  Same with Hull Breach and Simplify.  Also, this technology has been well tested.  Moreover, I have tested Recall.  It is garbage.  I was really upset about it.  All I ever wanted was Justice in my board.

What I was getting at with the Negator comment was an attempt to figure out why you use that over, oh say, Xantid Swarm.  It is incredibly apparent to me that the biggest threat to this deck from a control deck is Hulk which has 4 Duress and 4 FoW ontop of Mind Twist, and 4 Drains.  Point being that Negator SUCKS against Hulk.  I think Swarm is just better.  Prove me wrong.


Steve

I know Crumble is an instant, and can only be used post sideboarding - but it is in fact the cheapest targeted artifact kill exant, and if you are going to pollute your mana base for green, why not use the best?  If you are successfully using Wish->Justice, why not just board Splinter, for that matter?

Has Primitive Justice actually won games for you?  Saying Hurkyl's is bad is utter trash, and a logical excercise alone suffices to prove its worth (and if that doesn't do it, perhaps a small tour of the tournament report forum is in order).  It does not warrant a maindeck slot, but it is gold as a sideboard card vs brown, and I dare you to prove otherwise.

Swarm is indeed more effective than Negator vs Hulk, but there is also Keeper, Phid, and other creatureless combo decks to contend with, in which Negator is superior because it actually wins for you.  First turn Negator is still very strong versus Hulk due to it having direct synergy with Tendrils by reducing the lethal Tendrils count, and Negator is more difficult to kill with Deed and Fire than Swarm is - which is bound to come in game 2 and possibly 3.  Nobody is forcing you to attack or block Tog with a Negator on the table, either.\n\n

[Smmenen]

Hurky's Obviously is a strong card.  But not in this deck, either SB or MD.  However, I have extensive documentation in the form of testing results to support my point.  However, summary will do just as well by abstracting those results into a few salient points:

1) You have few Recalls than Burning Wishes.  Even with three recalls, I often just needed primitive justice in my board to wish for and I would have been fine.

2) If there is both sphere and wire, the only thing you can do is Hurkyl's on your upkeep.  The effect of this is that the Sphere is just replayed.  At least with this strategy you can hope to play more spells - but I never had enough steam to break through.

3) Becuase Long.dec operates off explosive mana sources like LED,s, Rituals, etc.  It often doesn't matter if I have no permanents on the board becuase I may be holding them to "go off."  Similarly Tangle Wire is rather ineffectual.  I have no fear of playing a LED because even if tapped, I can still sac it for mana without having to tap it becuase it's better than Lotus in that respect.  The only card I had to worry about was Sphere.  This was against Welder Mud and Stax.  I didn't care about Keg (if you don't play your stuff unless you need it) and Worb becuase I only had one or two lands in play at a time because of Wastelands and my low land count, or I am just holding them.   The only thing I always needed to do was to just take out sphere, and just win.  So you might ask: what about when you are under Wire/stax/ and sphere, etc?  I would just let the wire go down and let the stax eat the permanents.  The difference beteween Recall and Justice is that the Justice permanently deals with the Sphere in a way in which they cannot keep me down.  Of course, there are situations where it just doesn't matter.  But, on the whole, Recall was not at all what I wanted - Justice always was.  The one Justice in the SB has made my win percentages go from exactly 50-50 in a statistically very large sample size.  To well over 60%.  

Steve\n\n

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote 3) Becuase Long.dec operates off explosive mana sources like LED,s, Rituals, etc.  It often doesn't matter if I have no permanents on the board becuase I may be holding them to "go off."  Similarly Tangle Wire is rather ineffectual.  I have no fear of playing a LED because even if tapped, I can still sac it for mana without having to tap it becuase it's better than Lotus in that respect.  The only card I had to worry about was Sphere.  This was against Welder Mud and Stax.  I didn't care about Keg (if you don't play your stuff unless you need it) and Worb becuase I only had one or two lands in play at a time because of Wastelands and my low land count, or I am just holding them.   The only thing I always needed to do was to just take out sphere, and just win.  So you might ask: what about when you are under Wire/stax/ and sphere, etc?  I would just let the wire go down and let the stax eat the permanents.  The difference beteween Recall and Justice is that the Justice permanently deals with the Sphere in a way in which they cannot keep me down.  Of course, there are situations where it just doesn't matter.  But, on the whole, Recall was not at all what I wanted - Justice always was.  The one Justice in the SB has made my win percentages go from exactly 50-50 in a statistically very large sample size.  To well over 60%.

Point taken, but consider this:

Stax/MUD doesn't just lock you down simply because they can remove your permanents faster than they lose theirs - their strength comes from the fact that the lock is entirely asymmetric.  They can maintain permanents in play to counteract lock components by stacking abilities or Welding prudently, and their lands provide more mana.  They can easily sidestep the lock entirely and freely pummel you at will.  Tutor->Hurkyl's saves your ass at this point, whereas squeaking out a Wish->Justice is prohibitive as well as often ineffective with an active Welder.  With Hurkyl's maindecked after boarding, there is also the odd chance of topdecking it, which eliminates having to rely on the Wish route entirely.

In any case, I use both.\n\n

[Smmenen]

Quote (Smmenen @ Sep. 02 2003,08:44) Of course, there are situations where it just doesn't matter.  But, on the whole, Recall was not at all what I wanted - Justice always was.  

Steve

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote In any case, I use both.

Eric

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

I hate disturbing you while quoting yourselves, but I wanted to say something a little more constructive   
I had an argument lately how this deck could be stopped by restriction(s). As the person I was talking to didn’t accept my argumentation about Burning Wish being unnecessary for the deck to regularly goldfish on turn 2, I built and goldfished a version with only a single Burning Wish. And a strange thing occured: Not only didn’t the deck loose any speed, I even  posted slightly better results. I think that’s due to the random nature of the deck, not an advantage for the one Wish version. I thought I should share the statistics and the event itself, though, maybe there is some fact hidden in it besides Burning Wish being not really needed for the deck.

Statistics:
Long4Wish (30 games)
1 ----> 5  
2 ----> 14
3 ----> 4  
4 ----> 2
later ----> 5

Long1Wish (30 games)
Killturn
1 ----> 5
2 ----> 16
3 ----> 6
4 ----> 0
later ----> 3\n\n

[Eastman]

Those are interesting numbers, Mon. Though the sample seems a bit small, there does certainly appear to be a trend.

I'd like to do some additional testing and see if we can churn out some larger (more accurate numbers). Could you provide me with a list for the build running a single Burning Wish?

[VideoGameBoy]

I'm guessing

-3 Burning Wish
-1 Demonic Consultation
+4 previously sideboarded staples (Yawgmoth's Will, etc.) as was discussed prior in the thread.

And no, it doesn't really make that much difference goldfishing.  The only real impact is that you lose the resistance to Cap/Thief, some LED utility, and can no longer scalp yourself indiscriminately (Consultation, Diminishing Returns).

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

I used this version:

SB: 1 Replenish
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
1 Hunting Pack
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Balance
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Burning Wish
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Mind's Desire
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Underground Sea
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chromatic Sphere
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

It's probably a little untuned, but it works just fine for non-urgent non-tourney-related testing purposes. I mean luckily Wish is still legal, as restricting it would definitly seem to only kill The Shining but not this!
I now even use two Diminishing Returns (1MD, 1SB) and it didn't hurt me once! Ok, it removed Will, but the new 7 where enough for the kill. I think three winning-options are far from to risky with Returns.\n\n

[Gabethebabe]

Quote (Mon, Goblin Chief @ Sep. 03 2003,03:05)I hate disturbing you while quoting yourselves, but I wanted to say something a little more constructive

PWNED

[jpmeyer]

If the DCI wanted to weaken Long.dec, would it need to restrict just Ritual or LED or would it need to hit both?

[VideoGameBoy]

Ritual could possibly be replaced by Helm of Awakening at the cost of Will synergy, but LED is what really gives the deck it's explosiveness; restrict LED, and the only Tendrils decks will be Rector and U/B.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

I think LED alone would be enough to slow it down to the point where it gets inferior to Rector-Decks and the new Dutch Tendrils decks (see Pyromaniacs report from Eindhoven), which are slower than Drain, which makes them fine by me. Those are about as fast as BuddeTrix or NeoAcademy, both of which where not a problem for the environment, at least as far as I know.

/edit: VGB was faster.\n\n