Perfecting Long's Burning Desire

[Smmenen]

Mons: Your list looks very good.  DR is amazing.  

JP: LED has to be the card to go.  I think that Ritual needs to stay around for other reasons.  Banning Will is also a possibility, although slightly unrealistic as it would involve a change in policy.  

Steve

[VideoGameBoy]

I hate to be one of those people who is into spoiler speculation, but if that "imprint" mox sees print, it will definitely go in the deck - built in Burning Wish synergy plus a free spell that provides on-colored mana seems made for this deck.

[Tindemans]

first of all it's the question whether an imprinted card could be wished back. sure it's removed, but for a card to be 'imprinted' on the artifact, shouldn't it be impossible to return it to play?

and with this mox what exactly would you remove? for on color mana probably a blue card should be removed, but why was it we ain't playing FoW? and maybe a black card card can be removed, but definitely not search for one black mana, and ritual provide just better mana. yeah we can dump duress in goldfishing games.

Arthur

[jpmeyer]

According to Maro's article, you can Wish for something imprinted onto a card but if you do the card "forgets" what was imprinted on it and can't provide the desired effect any more.

[erik]

In a deck that casts multiple draw7's and dumps it's hand to LED's as frequently as this one, I think that card is close to tailor-made. Less lands in the deck would be wonderful, and it ups storm faster. Plus there's always the potential for neat tricks...imprint a good spell for later, wish for it and tinker away the useless mox for jar

On-topic, my deck looks just like the last one Smmenen posted except that I play Fastbond main and Tinker in the side. This is mostly because I'm so used to having tinker as 2nd wish target. That could possibly change once I get time to test out DR a little more though. My SB has nothing revolutionary either, I still use Negators for the psychological effect and as plan B against decks prepared with storm-hate. I also have an alternate version of the deck that's opted against control; heavier green component with swarms MD etc. Along with duress they really clog up your draw7's though. The best solution to the FoW problem seems to be frequent bomb-dropping after all...but it really hurts to have your spell countered after sacrificing LED's :/

[Eastman]

Quote  Chalice of the Void XX
Artifact
All spells with converted mana cost equal to X are countered.

This is a huge kick in the pants for long.dec. Is there any way to overcome a first turn Chalice for 0 ?\n\n

[Eastman]

Quote First you can only have four so you aren't gauranteed to get it when it will matter, whereas long.dec is super consistent.

The 'first' rebuttal is a statement true of EVERY tournament legal card, excluding of course those on the restricted list.

Quote Second, long can win on turn one before you get a chance to play it.

This second rebuttal, which states the situation isn't so bad because 'you can win before they cast the spell' is also a fairly universal criticism that could be applied to NEARLY every card in the format.

I should also add that the card in question has among the cheapest casting costs of the nearly Ten-Thousand printed cards that statement two quoted above applies to. At 0 mana Chalice will require you to have an insane hand AND win the dice roll... good luck.

Quote Third, Duress.

Duress is the most specific of your rebuttals. Although placed third on your list I'd have to say it is the most credible as Duress excludes lands and creatures (which make up a large number of the spells in Magic) from it's hegemony. Only a bit more than half of the cards ever printed can be dismissed with 'Well... Duress!'


I wasn't asking for universal answers. It is imprudent to act as if this card is not a threat to Long.dec. In a meta where Mon is siding Null Rod's in his Shining builds(to some effect) I cannot believe that Chalice will not be devastating.

Does anyone think that anything can be done about it?\n\n

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Eastman @ Sep. 11 2003,20:35)

Quote  Is there any way to overcome a first turn Chalice for 0 ?

Chalice is not a virtually instant auto-loss for Tendrils like Null Rod can be - Chalice at 0 shuts down 11 cards, whereas Null Rod stops 20+.  In fact, Moxen and other 0 CCs can be hoarded and still yield a near-lethal Tendrils in both cases, since they still count as spells played.

If it starts to see a lot of play in maindeck configurations, maybe some Burning Academy builds will feature maindecked Gorilla Shaman, much like how many currently feature Xantid Swarm.  The funny thing about it is that no matter what you set it to, it will always have a converted mana cost of zero, which dies to Shaman for 1 mana.

Chalice is indeed a powerful card, and will probably find a niche in decks that also run Gorilla Shaman/Welder (a.k.a. Keeper/Stax) - there is finally an easy-costing Meddling Mage that doesn't die to creature removal.\n\n

[Soupboy]

I agree that the Chalice has the potential to be a real pain.  But my question is, has anyone found anything in Mirrodin to *add* to this deck?  Has anyone done testing with the new Mox yet?  

The Soup

[Dante]

Quote (Soupboy @ Oct. 05 2003,16:31)I agree that the Chalice has the potential to be a real pain.  But my question is, has anyone found anything in Mirrodin to *add* to this deck?  Has anyone done testing with the new Mox yet?  

The Soup

there's a whole thread open in the type 1 forum

long with mirrodin

Seems to be faster than current long builds (or so some of the testers claim)...

Dante

[dandan]

Not wanting to sound like a moron but:

I've been adapting my old Academy slowly and I still have the Helms in. To me they seem superb as mana generators (19 colourless spells in Mon's list above). Is anyone else using them or am I just hopelessly outdated?

As I still only own 1 Burning Wish I too am running 1 Wish (note to self: print proxies) and the deck runs just fine.

Sidenote: this deck could be adapted to make the best highlander deck ever (better than highlander Keeper)

[leviat]

Quote I've been adapting my old Academy slowly and I still have the Helms in. To me they seem superb as mana generators (19 colourless spells in Mon's list above). Is anyone else using them or am I just hopelessly outdated?

I find that in my testing, its really the need for colored mana that prevents me from winning. I suppose you could argue that by having a Helm out you save yourself colored mana (in the long haul), but in most cases it's just the need for the one to Wish, or the {B} to cast Tendril's that's preventing me from winning.

[Justin]

Quote I find that in my testing, its really the need for colored mana that prevents me from winning. I suppose you could argue that by having a Helm out you save yourself colored mana (in the long haul), but in most cases it's just the need for the one to Wish, or the {B} to cast Tendril's that's preventing me from winning.

That's essentially what I'm finding. Once you are familiar with the deck, "going off" usually isnt a problem. Casting the Wish or Tendrils becomes the priority, and that needs to be considered in the mana explosion that occurs in this deck (the earlier the better).
-Justin

[MolotDET]

So, less than three weeks to go before we can't play this anymore, any last minute updates??

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (dandan @ Oct. 07 2003,06:29)Not wanting to sound like a moron but:

I've been adapting my old Academy slowly and I still have the Helms in. To me they seem superb as mana generators (19 colourless spells in Mon's list above). Is anyone else using them or am I just hopelessly outdated?

As I still only own 1 Burning Wish I too am running 1 Wish (note to self: print proxies) and the deck runs just fine.

Sidenote: this deck could be adapted to make the best highlander deck ever (better than highlander Keeper)

I held onto helms for the longest time too, until one by one I substituted them for other cards, until finally I replaced the last one with Mana Vault - and the deck has done nothing but get faster and better since dropping them entirely.

It essentially boils down to the fact that they really aren't necessary, and why help your opponent when you don't have to?

[ELD]

I know this kind of throws things in a different direction but what the heck.  Necropotence and Demonic Consultation.  IMHO these are the two most over rated cards in the deck.  Let me first qualify this statement saying that they are both  very strong cards, even in this deck.  There may be no way to find a more powerful replacement, they are some the best undercosted cards ever printed.  They aren't however win now cards like so many others in the deck.  For the most part they get you the cards that let you win, sometimes.  Necro usually lets you win next turn, but it can be devestated by duress knocking you down to six cards and leaving you with a hand that can't win.  Lets not even think about mindtwist or a short handed balance.  Necro isn't even close to Bargain's power level.  I've been trying Futuresight in it's place, but I always end up getting bargain into play if i could cast future sight.  I'll let everyone know how this goes.  My prediction is they are about the same level (future sight probably a bit more powerful) but losing first turn ritual Necro might not be worth it.  Demonic Consultation is pretty good when you're searching for Burning Wish.  That's as far as I'll go.  I've had really bad luck with this card and I'm going to sit down and do the math regarding hitting your named card before eliminating burning wish/tendrils from the deck entirely.  It has happened so many times when I've consulted for a restricted card.  To go from winning that turn, to losing that turn is suboptimal.  I know that's not typical, but I'd like to know the actual odds.  Anyways, I'm not sure that there is any way to  replace those cards, as they are still powerful, if not as broken as a draw 7 or Bargain.  The only cards I've come up with are Future Sight and Diminishing Returns which are both probably too slow.  Enlightened tutor does have a lot of targets, but without a Chromatic Sphere or brainstorm is it worth the lose of tempo?  What does eveyone else think?  

Peace,
Eric
ELD

[Smmenen]

I understand where you are coming from with your sentiment agianst Consult.  I had similar feelings when I first started testing this deck.  The very opening post of this thead echoes that.  However, you must trust those with alot of play experience that Consult is absolutely a must have in this deck.  The six cards you can ONLY consult for are: Xantid Swarm, Dark Ritual, Burning Wish, Duress, Land, and LED.  If you wish for anything else you simply do not know how to use this deck and you are goig to lose (although you could consult for Brainstorm, I don't think I've ever done that).  One of the key plays of this deck is winning on turn one but using the consult as a 5th duress, BB casting cost Duress though.  It is extremely effective and one of the key components in this deck.  It also makes your games against control very good.  As I stated in my article, one of the keys to beating control is to maximize your mana resources and play as many threats as possible.  Becuase Consult only costs one black and puts the card into your hand, it is SUPER DUPER good against it.

As for Necro, I agree it is over-rated - but it is still a turn one BOMB against almost any deck.  Dark Ritual Necro wins games.  That's all you really need to say.  When you examine the number and quality of threats, and how much synergy it has in this deck, any argument against it falls flat - esp when you consider that the draw 7s have less of a chance at winning a game than these do.

Steve

[Gabethebabe]

Consulting for a restricted card is stupid, unless you´re desperate.

Last weekend I consulted for Timetwister, being at 1 life, 0 cards, 0 lands, an angry Shade looking at me and Mox Diamond and 2 LED´s on the table. That situation qualifies for "desperate".

(TT was the penultimate card BTW - I lost).\n\n

[Black_plague]

Has anyone here tested the new version with the chrome mox and spoil of the vaults. I ask because I have tested it a bit and found not as consistent as the regular one. Maybe its just me but thats what ive found .
Luis
P.S. i apologize if this post dosent belong here.

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Black_plague @ Oct. 13 2003,07:27)Has anyone here tested the new version with the chrome mox and spoil of the vaults. I ask because I have tested it a bit and found not as consistent as the regular one. Maybe its just me but thats what ive found .
Luis
P.S. i apologize if this post dosent belong here.

Consistent as in goldfishing turn 1, or in matchups versus the current "tier 1" field?

Goldfishing, the percentages are exactly as stated in Rico's Neo-Long thread - something like 80% turn one kills are possible with the deck.  I don't see how that is less consistent.  The deck also has the maindecked tools to combat hate such as Null Rod, Chalice, Arcane Lab/Rule of Law, etc., and greater speed than Long, which improves it's consistency as well

I suggest you re-read the thread - the list has actually gone through quite a bit of playtesting, and I would venture to say that it is pre-restriction optimal.

[Thug]

Quote I suggest you re-read the thread - the list has actually gone through quite a bit of playtesting, and I would venture to say that it is pre-restriction optimal.

Wow, what is this?

Don't forget to mention that the version with Chrome Mox/Spoils/FoW has a harder matchup against control. LED and FoW just don't coöperate.

And while the Deck might be good in goldfishing (which I can't agree with either) I have seen no results of the deck, and in my testing it just proved very suboptimal.

I don't think adding FoW to battle chalice is the way to go, there are much better options, and it is yet to be seen how much chalices will actually see play.

Koen\n\n

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Thug @ Oct. 13 2003,11:02)Don't forget to mention that the version with Chrome Mox/Spoils/FoW has a harder matchup against control. LED and FoW just don't coöperate.

And while the Deck might be good in goldfishing (which I can't agree with either) I have seen no results of the deck, and in my testing it just proved very suboptimal.

I don't think adding FoW to battle chalice is the way to go, there are much better options, and it is yet to be seen how much chalices will actually see play.

Koen

Neo-Long (forgive me if the name isn't kosher, Brad) has just as many anti-control cards pre-SB as Long, and the deck has 4 x Pyroblast and 4 x Xantid Swarm post sideboarding, so how is that a harder control matchup than the original Long?

People said the same about Long.dec at first.  Admittedly, you have the experience with Long to lend this statement some credence, but I have also tested both, and still concur with Rico.  I also ask of you (so I can better address your concerns), less consistent how?

FoW isn't just to battle Chalice - Long is susceptible to tons of different hate, and it also guards against such things as first turn Null Rod, Sphere of Resistance, etc.  I was toying with sideboarded Gorilla Shaman, but Rico's solution is much tidier.

[Thug]

My main problem with the Neo-Long (or whatever you like to call it, just don't call it improved  ) versus control are the FoW's.

They just have zero synergy with LED's and they force you to hold back blue cards (good cards!) to have a realistic change at using them.

Duresses just fit into the deck a lot better, in you want to play with FoW's your better off building some triple-neo Academy with more blue cards to support it and less cards that make FoW suck.

If you really want Long to perform better against Rods etc, play more lands!. You're doomed with only five lands, no wonder you're so worried about atifact mana hosers.

And even then I think that, if you want to deal with Sphere and Chalices, Chain/H. Recall or any other form of bounce is the way to go.

Koen

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Thug @ Oct. 13 2003,11:50)If you really want Long to perform better against Rods etc, play more lands!. You're doomed with only five lands, no wonder you're so worried about atifact mana hosers.

Number of lands is not the issue, because Long is just as screwed by Null Rod/Chalice packing 11 versus Neo-Long's 5.

As for FoW, it is better than Duress in that it costs 0 and is reactive, which negates topdecks and first turn plays.

[Windfall]

I have been playing Long for awhile now and have finally gotten pretty good at it.  It did take awhile to get to know the deck, and I still have much to learn.  What I love about it is that I have to sit and think so long on turn 1.  It's fun to plan out a turn 1 or 2 win perfectly and witness it go.

I am worried that LED will hit the restricted list, though I am hoping Chalice will keep it legal.  I have never played a Combo deck so consistant and fun as Long, and I would hate to have it destroyed by losing LED.  I am equally worried about Chalice suddenly seeing play in all of my friend's decks (to beat me and to beat many other decks).  If this happens, I may have little chance of winning.  Chain of Vapor is a great card to knock out an early Chalice and win the same turn.  Perhaps more than 1 would be useful maindeck?

As for Mirrodin cards, Spoils of the Vault looks promising, as you can find LED, Ritual, Wish, Duress, and Chain of Vapor (if you use more than 1) quickly.  I am considering Chrome Mox, but I don't think I would replace all of the Cities with it.  I am wondering if the 2 Underground Seas can be replaced with Chrome Moxes.  What about Glimmervoid over CoB?

What I don't like about Chrome Mox is that it takes away lands and then I lose Mox Diamond.  I also don't like the fact that it does not work well if your opponent decides to bounce back a Chain of Vapor (targeting your Chrome Mox).  I don't know how good the Mox will be yet because I don't own them and I don't value them at $20 (I guess this is what they're worth, which is ridiculous), so it's hard to get them.  It seems that they could be very good, but I don't know if I would want more than 1 in my hand at any time.  Opening with 2 may warrant a mulligan.

I might have to agree that FoW is dangerous in this deck.  Most of the time, you'll want 2 in your hand so you can use one to pay for the other (you don't want to lose your other Blue cards because they will help you go off).  Duress backed up with Chain of Vapor is a good way to go.

When I get my 4 Spoils of the Vault I am going to test them in Smmenen's Long build.  Perhaps they will give me the tutoring power to just win turn 1-2 much more frequently.  It's probably better than Mystical Tutor in this deck and possibly Vampiric as well.  Since I never thought Time Walk was a solid choice I can replace one of those too.  3 Spoils seems like the best number.

So what do we do if LED is restricted?  Maybe we can take Neo-Academy to the old drawing board and change into a Tendrils deck.  I think it would be very good, as FoW will work well in that deck.  Then there is the fear that Chrome Mox and Spoils of the Vault will also be restricted early.  If this happens, Neo-Long is dead anyway.

     ~Mark

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote I am worried that LED will hit the restricted list, though I am hoping Chalice will keep it legal.  I have never played a Combo deck so consistant and fun as Long, and I would hate to have it destroyed by losing LED.  I am equally worried about Chalice suddenly seeing play in all of my friend's decks (to beat me and to beat many other decks).  If this happens, I may have little chance of winning.  Chain of Vapor is a great card to knock out an early Chalice and win the same turn.  Perhaps more than 1 would be useful maindeck?

It's just a hunch, but I think Chalice will be what keeps LED off the restricted list.  With Force of Will and Chalice to keep it in check, LED is hardly format distorting.

What would you cut for those extra Chain of Vapors?  The card definitely has its uses as an anti-hate card and the occasional storm-ramper/mana trick provider, but with the ample tutoring of this deck, it really isn't that hard to find.

Quote As for Mirrodin cards, Spoils of the Vault looks promising, as you can find LED, Ritual, Wish, Duress, and Chain of Vapor (if you use more than 1) quickly.  I am considering Chrome Mox, but I don't think I would replace all of the Cities with it.  I am wondering if the 2 Underground Seas can be replaced with Chrome Moxes.  What about Glimmervoid over CoB?

I'd really hate to have to work the math, but so far it seems to me that you average around a life loss of 7 to find an unrestricted card turn 1 with Spoils, and the less cards you have in your deck, the more consistent it becomes.  It really is a natural fit, and should probably be a staple in regular Long as long as Burning Wish is unrestricted.

Chrome Mox and Spoils will be restricted, of this I am sure.  In fact, I already have a list compiled utilizing a lone Chrome Mox and Spoils.

Glimmervoid is unnecessary for 2 reasons - City of Brass is still strictly superior due to it not having an auto-destruct mechanism (even with it being slightly asynergistic with Spoils and Necro), and why play lands that are susceptible (by proxy) to artifact hate as well as nonbasic hate?  Other than that, it works quite well in the deck, since you will never be without a turn 1 artifact drop.

Quote What I don't like about Chrome Mox is that it takes away lands and then I lose Mox Diamond.  I also don't like the fact that it does not work well if your opponent decides to bounce back a Chain of Vapor (targeting your Chrome Mox).  I don't know how good the Mox will be yet because I don't own them and I don't value them at $20 (I guess this is what they're worth, which is ridiculous), so it's hard to get them.  It seems that they could be very good, but I don't know if I would want more than 1 in my hand at any time.  Opening with 2 may warrant a mulligan.

Imprint isn't mandatory, for one thing, and unlike Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox is almost always imprintable barring pure artifact hands.  If someone counters Mox Diamond, you are out 2 cards, if they counter Chrome Mox, you only lose 1 card (and 2 is added to the Storm tally).  With this deck, you generally have extra cards you can do nothing with at the moment anyways.

That aside, being able to play will 9 moxen will definitely be short-lived.

Quote I might have to agree that FoW is dangerous in this deck.  Most of the time, you'll want 2 in your hand so you can use one to pay for the other (you don't want to lose your other Blue cards because they will help you go off).  Duress backed up with Chain of Vapor is a good way to go.

I must aggree, for the most part - except for the fact that losing those blue cards is often better than losing the game.

Quote When I get my 4 Spoils of the Vault I am going to test them in Smmenen's Long build.  Perhaps they will give me the tutoring power to just win turn 1-2 much more frequently.  It's probably better than Mystical Tutor in this deck and possibly Vampiric as well.  Since I never thought Time Walk was a solid choice I can replace one of those too.  3 Spoils seems like the best number.

I'm sure you will find that you can often use Spoils twice and sometimes even more quite safely.  It really is quite good in the deck.  The believe the cards Brad cut for Spoils are:

Frantic Search (pure suck with 5 lands, in any case)
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Necro (something I simply won't ever take out of the deck - I'd rather only play 3 x Spoils or drop a costed mana slot to play with 30 sources instead of 31, which is what I am currently doing)
1 x Land

Quote So what do we do if LED is restricted?  Maybe we can take Neo-Academy to the old drawing board and change into a Tendrils deck.  I think it would be very good, as FoW will work well in that deck.  Then there is the fear that Chrome Mox and Spoils of the Vault will also be restricted early.  If this happens, Neo-Long is dead anyway.

Worry about that more when the time comes - Dutch Tendrils or The Perfect Storm is what many people call that deck, in any case.\n\n

[Thug]

Quote Number of lands is not the issue, because Long is just as screwed by Null Rod/Chalice packing 11 versus Neo-Long's 5.

BS,

With only five lands in your deck, and a null rod/chalice on the table you will never get to two mana before you get killed. With 11 lands you don't autoscoop to such cards, just because you have answers, and can side in more that you can actually pay for...

Quote As for FoW, it is better than Duress in that it costs 0 and is reactive, which negates topdecks and first turn plays.

As for Duress,

-it's better than FoW because FoW always will cost you two cards, since you have to hold back another card

-at B, it's always castable, and doesn't sit dead in your hand about 50% of the time because you're lacking a blue card.

-it's gives you more information about your opponent's deck/hand so that you can plan your actions better

-it ups your storm count easier than FoW does

-it doesn't collide with LED, a key card in the deck

Do I need to say more??

I you want to play a deck with FoW try this, I have been working on it sometime, and it looks a lot better than Long with FoW's. It might not be as explosive but it's a lot more solid. It's basicly an updated version of TPS, so all props to the Eindhoven-crew

Quote Lands: (11)

4 Polluted Delta
4 underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts: (15)

7 Solomox
4 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Memory Jar

Blue: (19)

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Diminishing Returns
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Mind's Desire
1 Tinker

Black: (15)

4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

Red: (1)

Wheel of Fortune

Koen

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote With only five lands in your deck, and a null rod/chalice on the table you will never get to two mana before you get killed. With 11 lands you don't autoscoop to such cards, just because you have answers, and can side in more that you can actually pay for...

You are operating in a fantasy world if you think the decks packing Chalice won't have Waste/Strip or counterspells - so yes, Long is just as dead, even though you will hypothetically get to your two lands, fetch Primitive Justice with Burning Wish, cast Primitive Justice, and come back and win the game after your opponent has had 2-3 free turns to rape your precious few usable permanents.

Quote As for Duress,

-it's better than FoW because FoW always will cost you two cards, since you have to hold back another card

Again, -2 cards and -1 life is worth not losing first turn.

Quote -at B, it's always castable, and doesn't sit dead in your hand about 50% of the time because you're lacking a blue card.

Indeed it is nigh-always castable, but it doesn't do jack about topdecks, Brainstorm, going second, and multiple opposing FoW with 3 blue cards in hand.

Quote -it's gives you more information about your opponent's deck/hand so that you can plan your actions better

By this you mean scouting when you can safely pitch your hand to LED.  Well, Duress isn't a rock solid answer, either.  When playing against someone without opposing Force, though, who cares what they have in their hand?

Quote -it ups your storm count easier than FoW does

And if your opponent attempts a counter on your turn, Storm goes up 2 by responding with FoW.  I don't really see the point of this particular argument, since Duress's main function is to pick off opposing counters.

In a deck designed to kill first turn, FoW is strictly better than Duress, since your black mana can be used for better things, while performing the same function of stopping opposing FoW.  First turn mana is often too tight to be casting spells that don't draw, tutor, or provide more mana.

Quote -it doesn't collide with LED, a key card in the deck

By far the only valid argument you have, Thug.  That one situation does not warrant making a clear-cut decision of Duress over Force of Will, though.  Force of Will is the only way to deal with decks packing 4 x Chalice - and it stupid to just lose to a deck because they have 1 card you can do nothing about.

edit

To summarize, FoW is to provide a solution to the rampant hate that is going to be directed at Long and it's derivatives.  The opposing counters you fear so much when pitching your hand to LED is what Xantid Swarm is for.\n\n

[Rico Suave]

The idea behind Force over Duress is that if you have the opportunity to play Duress, it is better to simply go off and not bother wasting mana/time on it.  If you don't go first, Force stops their hate, whereas Duress would not.

The exception is against control decks.  Still, that is not a bad match even before sideboarding, and it only gets better after it.

Quote And even then I think that, if you want to deal with Sphere and Chalices, Chain/H. Recall or any other form of bounce is the way to go.

I'd like to emphasize how I included Chain of Vapor in the list I posted.

Even then, your "way to go" is the third option down on my list.  I prefer to either win before they get a turn, or to Force it if I lose the coinflip.  Only if those fail does Chain of Vapor come into play.\n\n

[Thug]

Quote You are operating in a fantasy world if you think the decks packing Chalice won't have Waste/Strip or counterspells - so yes, Long is just as dead, even though you will hypothetically get to your two lands, fetch Primitive Justice with Burning Wish, cast Primitive Justice, and come back and win the game after your opponent has had 2-3 free turns to rape your precious few usable permanents.

You're the one that's living in a fantasy world.

You're the one trying to argue that if you can't rely on your artifacts and want to cast a 1cc or 2cc spell playing 5 or playing 11 lands doesn't make a difference.

Off course decks packing Chalice can have acces to Strips/Counters. That's why you want more land to counter their destruction and that's why you want mana to cast Duress/Swarm/Pyroblast.

You look at all from Neo-longs point of view, I really wonder I you have ever seriously played with Long.

Quote Again, -2 cards and -1 life is worth not losing first turn.

Sheesh, yo do not auto-lose to a first turn Chalice!!!
Well, with Neo-long you do...

But Long can still easily compete,
You're talking about your opponent getting three free turns etc, but Seal really only is 2 mana, chain only is one.
So they either get one or two turns, if you got your answer handy

And you're opponent is likely to hold a bad hand if it includes Chalice, or he will have mulliganned down into a Chalice, really the Chalice costs you a turn or two, but the same often counts for your opponent.

Quote By this you mean scouting when you can safely pitch your hand to LED.  Well, Duress isn't a rock solid answer, either.  When playing against someone without opposing Force, though, who cares what they have in their hand?

Another not really thought out argument.
If they don't run FoW's, how could they be a threat in your turn? Not, so you just spended 1 mana to make sure you can just cast that Timetwister, and you won't be holding it back so that you might FoW something on your opponents turn.

Also with the Duress you're most likely to secure another turn, so I really don't see the problem? any deck not packing FoW's still loses it's possible threts to your Duress, all they can do is topdeck.

I'm not saying Duress is a better card than FoW, I'm saying Duress is a bettter card in this deck. Get over it, and agree.

Quote In a deck designed to kill first turn, FoW is strictly better than Duress, since your black mana can be used for better things, while performing the same function of stopping opposing FoW.  First turn mana is often too tight to be casting spells that don't draw, tutor, or provide more mana.

It's a lot tougher to lose another one of your cards, than 1 measy mana. So maybe you have to pass the turn once so that you can cast your Duress to clear the coast, so be it. A second turn kill is still fast enough.

Quote To summarize, FoW is to provide a solution to the rampant hate that is going to be directed at Long and it's derivatives.  The opposing counters you fear so much when pitching your hand to LED is what Xantid Swarm is for.

Yeah, but you can't claim that you often can drop Swarm with that deck can you?

And you don't always draw it;
and it can get killed;
and you don't have acces to it before sideboarding...

And your saying I am describing a narrow situation??

Quote Even then, your "way to go" is the third option down on my list.  I prefer to either win before they get a turn, or to Force it if I lose the coinflip.  Only if those fail does Chain of Vapor come into play.

Lol, off course you try to win before they get the change to drop their Chalice. I ment dealing with them after they hitted play, the inclusion of Chain seems like a step in the right direction to me.

Koen\n\n