Powerless Chalice Black// Disruption - 294 Hypnotic Spect...

[Sytupal]

This takes care of what Null rod and Cursed totem does, but doesn't that not help against metalworker?  IT's an interesting choice but should it be played?

[Methuselahn]

here is a deck for comparison.

So how does black use Chalice best? Some say with Spheres of Resistance. Well, I believe if you follow that route with Spheres, you will end up adding complimentary artifacts and the deck will evolve into a Workshop deck. Personally, I just don't like Spheres with any type of mono black deck, but that is my biased opinion. My belief is to use black spells that work around chalice. Utility lands, uncounterable spells, cycling, and my personal favorite, 'pitch' spells are fine examples of mechanics that have beautiful symmetry with Chalice. My next step was to find a deck with all these mechanics that worked well together even without Chalice. The philosophy is to use very narrow but terribly effective pitch spells and Chains.

Quote
"Unholy Grail"
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Duress
3 Unmask
3 Contagion
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Nantuko Shade
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Hypnotic Specter

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
6 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou

SB: 4 Null Rod
SB: 3 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Naturalize
SB: 3 Coughin' Purge
SB: 3 Withering Wisps

Hymn and Sink are just not needed or wanted.  Hymn may nab cards your opponent can't cast.  Sinkhole prevents your opponent from playing spells that will get countered anyway (in theory).

With this build, you want to throw down disruption and chalice asap. Tho it still depends on the specific matchup on how you want to chalice. Unmask+Chains+Contagion really makes a nice little trifecta with chalice.  Dead cards are never really dead cards anymore. Cards like unmask and contagion still let you play your deck with chalices out.  

Factories are the best creatures in this deck.  The creature mix is great CC wise.  Shades work well with Chalice.  Like the cup, shade also works for a longer game.  Wretches are not needed.  They are stronger against Tog than the other grave hate, but not needed due to the other tog hating cards md.  Coffin Purge is far better, it can be tossed to Unmask or a Chains to be used later.  

Withering Wisps is tech suggested from waSP.  It's fun, It has also been the source of a number of scoopings.  Oh, it works sweet with factories.

Mind Twist didn't make it in the MD. The card is so good with a chalice black deck, I just don't have enough accelleration in the deck.  Diabolic edicts are also a nice complement to the Contagions and should be considered.

Warning:  I'm not claiming this deck to be Tier 1 at all, but I think it is more in theme with "Chalice Black v2" than the chalice/sphere build with a few cards switched.

[Sytupal]

why is everyone making a chalice black build so complicated?   A 1 cc card can be cast BEFORE casting the chalice for one.  the moxes can be dropped before dropping the chalice for zero.  IT's not that difficult.  IF there are different deck ideas why aren't they in separate threads?  A simple and effective chalice black build should just be a slightly modified sui build with 4 chalice maindeck.  I don't know. i may get crap for this, i may get warned whatever, but i don't see how complicated you can make monoblack before it doesn't work anymore.  mishra's is a waste fodder and simply awful in a black build.

[Methuselahn]

Quote why is everyone making a chalice black build so complicated?

Complicated is a non issue.  This is a big boy game.

Quote A 1 cc card can be cast BEFORE casting the chalice for one.  the moxes can be dropped before dropping the chalice for zero.  IT's not that difficult.

Of course one can play spells first, but what happens when you go into topdeck mode turn 2-3 like sui normally does?  Do you want to be able to do things with all of these chalices out?

Quote IF there are different deck ideas why aren't they in separate threads?  A simple and effective chalice black build should just be a slightly modified sui build with 4 chalice maindeck.  I don't know. i may get crap for this, i may get warned whatever, but i don't see how complicated you can make monoblack before it doesn't work anymore.

Personally, I don't think there needs to be several mono-black based deck threads.  Simply 'modifying' sui by adding chalice/sphere/etc. isn't really tweaking/'modifying' it. The deck really is trying to drive in a different direction. Saying it looks complicated and thus wont work anymore is really a weak arguement.

Quote mishra's is a waste fodder and simply awful in a black build.

 this is the best one yet.  Notice the lack of many BB in the build I presented.  Plus, factory is better with unmask as you can drop him turn 1 and still disrupt.  Factories also make great therapy victims.  Turn 1 duress, and 2 therapies turn 2 is huge.  Factories give the finger to Chalice of the Void.  I read somewhere that Factories were good in Nether Void decks too.  Oh, they are abyss proof, and are useful vs. goblins, fish, landstill.\n\n

[Sytupal]

I'm not going to get into an argument with you about this, it is not worth it, however, complication is the issue. the build you suggested is no longer the simple build.  The greatness of monoblack is it's simplicity and effectiveness.  You having a compeltely new build idea is great, fantastic, i enjoy reading new builds.  The way you're acting is childish.  

Why completely change the build, offer it as a suggestion, and then mock people who reply to the thread saying something otherwise.  I understand why most changes don't require a new thread, but your build is not anything near the original deck idea.  The only thing the starter of this thread said was "what do you think?"  this doesn't mean "Here have this deck because I THINK yours is bad!"  Come on now, act presentable.

~And wasteland gives the finger to mishra's in the mirror match..

[Methuselahn]

I disagree, I think my build is not at all complicated AND the goal of the deck is exactly the same.  Disrupt, drop a fattie, disrupt is still the drive of the deck.  With minimal playing it is easy to see the decks 'effectiveness', or lack there of, regardless.  

I apologize, I don't try and mock people.  I'm firmly against it.  However, mocking what people say I have no problem doing.  

I tried commenting on the fact that the decklists posted before still contained Chalice, Sphere, and Hymns.  I think a better sui build can be built (or at least attempted) without including so many of the same cards that were presented by Zherbus primarily as an example and starting point.  I was hoping to generate some more innovation.  All I'm seeing is number switching.

[EVAxKPx@!]

Quote (Sytupal @ Nov. 25 2003,11:22)~And wasteland gives the finger to mishra's in the mirror match..

Yes, you are so right. A wasteland will kick a factory's ass... but since we're talking about mirror match, your wasteland will ALSO kick their factory's ass. -.- Does that really mean much? Now if you're talking about non-mirror matches where your opponent has wastelands, it would probably be worth it for you to lose an attacker while they lose a viable mana source.

[g0dzillA]

Sytupal:

I have to agree with Methuselahn about playing around your own Chalices... you can play your 0 or 1 cc cards before you drop Chalice, but he's right - Chalice Black goes to topdeck mode as early as turn 2... and you are very likely to topdeck cards set at the number you Chaliced for. His suggestion that cards like Contagion and Unmask have great synergy with Chalice are dead-on. It's possible that 6 pitch cards might be too many, but in principle it's an idea with a lot of merit. It's not overcomplexity; it's synergy.

Furthermore, he did a lot more than say: "Your deck is bad, here's a better one!" He stated specific cards that he thought might not be the best choice, like Sphere, and explained why he thought this. He then presented an alternative. He wasn't rude about it - if anything he was informative and constructive.

Lastly, Chalice Black is not just Sui with 4 Chalices thrown it. Sui with 4 Chalices thrown in it is exactly that: Sui with 4 Chalices in it. You may have noticed that the title of this thread contained: "remix of Zherbus' Chalice Black". Zherbus' Chalice Black is defined by and set apart from Sui not only by Chalices, but by Sphere of Resistance and Mishra's Factory, and by the inherent synergy between these 3 cards. If anything, it is more akin to a Nether Void variant than Sui.

I'm not suggesting that Sui isn't a viable alternative, but if you're interested in discussing it, you might want to find and/or start a thread about it, because this isn't it. As an example, Factory sucks in Sui. It's essential in Chalice Black. If you don't know why, it means you've never played Chalice Black, and are assuming that any mono black deck is automatically a Sui variant, which is simply not the case.

[Arvid]

@Chalice:

The "Top deck mode" argument does not convince me! For example let's say you face Sligh. You put a Chalice for 1 into play let's say turn 1 or 2. You have some dead cards, like Duress (bad card against Sligh anyway), Dark Ritual, which will make your Will pretty useless. This is a good deal keeping in mind that 75% of your opponents deck is made useless! In game 2 I will side out Duress for Contagion ...

@Sytupal:

The fact that Damping Matrix doesn't take care of mana abilities, such as Metalworker, is a fair trade for me since it's a 2-for-1-card. Although when facing, let's say Isochron Scepter Keeper, you would want to use the Null Rod "part" of the Matrix but you're unfortunately going to stop your own Shades and Wretches from using their activated abilities, and thats ... not good ...

[Luk5000]

@ Methuselahn(chris):

I am personally surprised that you chose a build like that knowing our meta.  I think that the chains are great, but better used in the SB.  If you insist on them in the MD I suggest 1.  Also about the hippies... I think you could really get a big advantage if they were Wretches instead.  The rods in the board are huge and I kinda like the green splash flavour for the Deeds and Naturalize.  How have those worked for you?

I just want to say that I think that Chalice Black is strong and could contend, but It gets pwned by any type of combo.  Would anyone seriously bring this deck to a tourney?  I would and will in the future because I want to give it a try, but does anyone think this is at all competitive?

I want to hear what peeps have to say,

Luke

[centroles]

chalice black can do great against combo. a first turn duress of hymn is virtually guarenteed. often times, you get to use both early on. chalice can shut out key combo cards. sphere makes it that much harder to combo out.

if anything, chalice black is the ultimate anticombo deck. that doesn't mean combo can't over power it. but it's the one of the decks best equipped to fight off combo

aggro is mostly dead but whatever is left is shut out by chalice.

chalice black does great against control as well.

it's only real weakness is workshop based decks that do what you do but simply do it faster and better. but workshop based decks don't pack any disruption and are thus that much more likely to be overwhelmed by combo.