Suggested by Myself, and asked by quite a few. I have Dec...

[BreathWeapon]

@ Baron

You can't swap Sphere of Reisistance for Mindslaver, your average CC would be far too high to cope with. Sphere of Resistance isn't a bad card, its just lost some of its "Must Be Included No Matter What" qualities. I can't think of a better card to use in that slot. If you are using Sphere of Resistance, than you can play the Mana Denial game hardcore with Chalice=0 turn 1, and thats a weapon in and of itself. I'm not saying we should remove Sphere of Resistance from our decks, i'm saying that we CAN if we want to.

That said, i'm not a fan of 1xCards in wMUD, so i'm not sure if Mindslaver has a place in the deck. I'm running your list -1 Karn + 1 Grim Monolith and i'm more than happy with it. Nevertheless, if you want to add an additional kill condition to supplement Loadstone Myr, then 1xMindslaver is just that vs a lot of decks. I haven't felt the need to use any kill condition other than Loadstone Myr tho', and unless your deck is in a unique position to abuse Mindslaver, Tinker , don't. Alternate locks and kill conditions can be left in the SB, IMO. Afterall, 4 Rack and Ruind, 4 REB and 4 Tormod's Crypt are the best cards you can run for your SB, that still leaves 3 slots for random Mindslavers, Karns and Smokestacks.

@ Vegeta

I like including Gilded Lotus in any deck that can effectively run Tinker. Its definately some good I hear. Artifact Lands? Where is Smmene finding the room for this stuff, lol? I worry about using Bloodmoon as a lock come Jan 1st. Scepter based control is going to replace Chalice Keeper, and Tog is still hiding under a rock IRL. So, what decks are we trying to target with Bloodmoon other than B/U/g Dragon? What if Dragon simply chooses to use its Mono-B Spoils variant? Madness would be a sweet target, but its dead. Considering people are already planning on using BM against Workshop, how much sense does it make to MD it ourselves? A U/r Scepter deck gunning for Workshop and Dragon is going to be a reality very soon, and since Slavery.dec seems to be geared for an environment without Long, this is something to ponder.

@ Shadowspawn

I don't think anyone would be bold enough to run a manabase for 3 color TnT. 5 Strip/Waste is too important in the new environment and Bloodmoon is a potent weapon once again.

Eh, i'm going to concentrate on building a Workshop deck that uses 4 City of Brass and 4 Glimmervoid to good effect. That Manabase is too promising to ignore.\n\n

[Vegeta2711]

I think he doesn't run Glimmer, he may run Volc, but I have no clue. All I know is I saw them in his build and for the 1.5 conversion I made sure to fit 8 artifact lands in there. I think you need like 4-6 just to always have Welder bait. Gilded Lotus is a lot better than people gave it credit for, basically anytime you plan on having a mid/late game it's some good.

Obviously if Blood Moon becomes overly played out you run other cards in there, personally I wouldn't run MD Blood Moon unless I was expecting a lot of control. I mentioned this specfically because I began to remember a bit more about the builds I've played against.\n\n

[shadowspawn]

BreathWeapon, your forecast of the meta looks right, and I like it quite a bit, but Dragon, Keeper, Tog and some random things like enchantress etc. are gonna get hit with Blood Moon. I don't really like it in the WelderMud MD, but I can see it in the Slaver.dec MD basically because it's a lock that hurts alot, and you aren't hurt THAT much by it anyways.

Concerning Welder Mud, Duplicant looks very promising although there seems to be a few problems with it at first glance. I'll make an Analysis of what this does for Welder Mud and you can add whatever you want

Pros
-Spot Removal, instant spot removal with welder, a house vs Dargon, also a 2nd Win Mechanic(yay!)
Cons
-Cost is high, if the ability is good for the cost(which I'm not sure about)then it should deserve a spot. A bit too Clunky/Random in Welder Mud? I'm not really sure if this is true or not, Karn is a 2-of and it's the primary win condition, so is Duplicant really more Clunky/Random then Karn?

[BreathWeapon]

A card I REALLY like in wMUD as a solid 2x is Solemn Simulacrum. Think about it, the card nets you Basic Lands so you should always have Red Mana sources for Goblin Welder and Wheel of Fortune. It allows you to cut Grim Monolith and a Mountain for 2 Ancient Tombs, and the free Land Drop will make the deck more resistant to Wasteland. It has awesome synergy with Goblin Welder, netting you not only an artifact from the GY but an additional card to boot. It has a nice 2/2 body vs Goblin Lackey and is well priced at 4 cc. I think its worth adding to our "Mystery 2x wMUD" list, agreed?

As far as my perception of the meta goes, only time will really tell. It will be very important to watch the environments reaction to the incursion of Bloodmoon and the rising popularity of Stifle. If I had to sumarize my predictions,

Long&Madness RIP Jan 1st 2004.

U/r Scepter decks will explode onto the format after Jan 1st, main decking atleast 2-3 Blood Moons and 3-4 Stifles as an additional LD element vs Keeper, a bullet vs DoJ and a BOMB vs Dragon. My build is currently posted in the Members Lounge.

Chalice Keeper decks will fade from the lime light in favor of Scepter Keeper builds. The uses for Chalice are limited in the absence of Long and Scepter will provide much needed protection vs Bloodmoon come Jan 1st.

Tog based control will continue to hibernate in the presence of Neo-Prison decks and Bloodmoons for now, unless serious innovation follows the new year.

Stubborn GAT players will continue to think that their deck has a place in the format, and will be promptly owned by the presence of increased LD elements via Stifle and the presence of Bloodmoon. The rise in creature hate, STP, on account of Dragon/Mask and the viability of Scepter based control does not bode well for this deck.

Dragon will be forced to change significantly. With the incursion of Bloodmoon, Dragon will be forced to leave its B/U/g deck list behind in favor of Mono-B builds. This transformation will weaken it vs Prison and Control, its Sideboard options are greatly diminished. As Dragon players realize that their extended game plan of Squee/Bazaar is challenged by the new environments aggressive use of Strip/Wastes and Bloodmoon, it will be pushed towards the 4 Spoils variant that promises consistant turn 2 wins. In return, Chalice for 1 will be an incredibly potent weapon vs Jan 1st Spoils-Dragon.

Spoils-Mask will be a considerable threat in the new format, its concentration on brake neck speed will not chane while other decks relax their tempo. Mask will be the reason Control players will still Side Board Chalice. Stifle may prove itself useful here by delaying 12/12 beats for a turn, w00t.

TPS players will hit the scene, hoping that the metagame shift towards Dragon and Mask will open up a hole for it to brake the format. TPS' success will be largely based on the popularity of Stifle, on a Stick its pretty damn amusing vs TPS.

B/G Nethervoid will creep its way back into the meta as a promising deck. Nethervoid should be a useful weapon vs Isochron Scepter and Pernicious Deed can wreck Workshop. Void will probably MD 3-4 Withered Wretches as well.

B/R Suicide will be a very powerful and popular metagame weapon if it packs MD Bloodmoons, Withered Wretches and Null Rods. I'm lookin forward to seeing this deck in the hands of budget players.

Chalice Black will lose popularity in the absence of Long for B/R Suicide, which is better suited towards the future meta.

Fish will not enjoy the presence of Bloodmoon, and will probably lose some popularity as budget players migrate to U/W Landstill, which is better suited for the meta.

Goblins are goblins, what else do you need to know?

As for Workshop decks, I think its safe to assume that in the absence of Long, Prison players will be afforded more flexiblity in their lock pieces and Aggro Workshop variants will have a chance to shine with the environments decreased focus on break neck tempo.

Did I miss anything?

[rozetta]

I did some more playtesting yesterday and came up with a new build which I think starts to iron out some of the old problems. I basically added a little extra land, replacing the not as useful Grim Monolith and Voltaic Key. I also replaced a couple of the draw-7s with a card which appears to be a whole lot better for this deck - Future Sight. With 4 Lotuses, I can easily play this out and amass several permanents on the board as early as turn 2.

As far as the fact that I cut the artifact land and glimmervoid for fetches - I do understand that people are running a lot of stifles right now and that I should be worried about losing a fetch, but I'm a lot more worried about null rod, which completely shuts down artifact lands. I might give the deck a try in testing with 8 artifact lands, but in a tournament situation with multiple gay fish and suicide players packing maindeck null rod, I'd run the duals and fetches.

I'm now running Karn and Triskelion main and no Bosh. I miss Bosh in that it has trample and can easily get past creatures, but I like the fact that Karn can destroy chalices, re-enabling some of your spells. Triskelion is, imo a must in this deck to take out opposing welders, and sometimes mox monkeys (which are only a problem if you want to create a chalice). Basically, they're both there for utility, but can double as win conditions. Bosh is a win now card. I might put him in the sideboard, since he's good in the mirror match, for instance.

My current list is 61 cards, since I'm trying a 4th chalice maindeck. I'm actually wondering if a land could be cut, but I'm going to test it a little more at 61 cards to figure that out.

As for the lightning greaves, I've tried the deck both with and without them and it works so much better with them, even if they might not be a card you want to see in your opening hand. They're really only to allow you to immediately activate welders and metalworkers, but you will need that ability when going off to prevent you from stalling. As an added bonus, you can haste and attacking creature and protect a key welder from creature removal. I know they look bad, and I'm constantly debating running them, but as soon as I test the deck without them, it just doesn't run as smoothly.

//Lock: 12
4 Mindslaver
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Goblin Welder

//Misc: 4
1 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Lightning Greaves

//Draw: 13
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Future Sight

//Mana: 32
4 Metalworker
3 Gilded Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Black lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Island

Btw, for Mindslaver play of the day: I slavered my opponent and during the turn I was taking for him, I cast my own Fact or Fiction and chose my "opponent" to make a pile of 5 and a pile of 0. I took the pile of 5. Sweet.\n\n

[BreathWeapon]

Rozetta, I think its time you made a significant division of your deck from Slavery. I really don't think adding in a few "random" beats makes this significantly different than other Slavery lists. Multiple Guilded Lotus also seems like a bit much to me, how good have you found them to be? Future Sight, oh my. I'm gonna have to try that out for myself.

Concerning Lightning Greaves, I think its the smart money to reconsider these things in T1. Creature removal, STP, will soon be at an all time high on account of Dragon/Mask and renewed interest in TnT.

A deck I have been considering is a Neo-Tubbies deck with a single Mindslaver as a secondary win condition. What do you think about this idea?

I figure for a good start,

4xJuggernaut
4xSu-Chi
1xMasticore/Duplicant
1xKarn, Silver Golemn
2xTriskelion
1xPlatinum Angel/Bosh

4xThirst for Knowledge
1xTinker
1xTimewalk
1xAncestral Recall
1xDemonic Tutor

4xGoblin Welder
1xMindslaver
1xMemory Jar

4xChalice of the Void
2xLightning Greaves

Followed by the manabase I previously suggested and currently endorse.

Thoughts anyone?

[BaronSengir]

I think a U/R list for Slavery is the best form that this deck can take. Try, instead of Karn or Trisk for a win condition, that old card that could take off and put on those 1/1 counter thingees. (sleepy, can't think right). Also, have you tried running FoW? if you can find room, its really nice to have in your build. Possibly thoughtcast if you can get it in, maybe 2x or something. But slavery.dec isn't really my thing

@breathweapon: about karn, I think i'll stick with him. Although grim may be good mana accel, you can't deny Karn's utility to hose Moxen (deprive tempo) act as a 4/4 beatstick, block as a 0/8 wall, and make your own little army.

about your metagame forecast. it looks great. But how bought Neo-Academy decks, Egg academy, the "Perfect Storm", and the "Coming Global Superstorm"? They are actually hardly affeected by Long's killing restrictions, and in the absense of "psssssh, longs dead, combos dead" they might make comebacks. We should still take combo as a threat.

school bell rang... haha gotta run

[rozetta]

Okay, so I'll test 4 Smokestack in place of the Karn, Trisk and 2 Greaves, which maybe gives me a way of dealing with Null Rod. I'll also test 2 of each of the blue and red artifact lands in place of the 1 island and 3 fetches, which ups my artifact count to 33, which is probably okay for metalworker.

The win condition is then a fine tightrope walk of being able to whittle away my opponent's permanents with the smokestack/mindslaver lock and finally beat with metalworkers and welders, which, while not exactly fast, is possible. Also, a lot of people scoop if they're sufficiently locked under either multiple chalices, smokestack lock, or mindslaver lock, so having a "real" win condition is maybe not essential. Not to mention you can often kill someone with their own deck.

I tested a version with 4 of each artifact land against fish, and although explosive, if fish resolved a null rod, that was an instant scoop, since I have no way to get coloured mana after that. Hence the need for the 4 Volcanics, so that post-sideboard you can at least cast an artifact removal spell on a turn after the null rod hits (and card drawing to find it).

The Future Sights are honestly exactly what this deck has been looking for to get that little bit of extra kick. They're vastly superior to the other draw-7 spells I cut. In fact, with these in the deck, the amount of permanents you can play per turn is quite ridiculous and it should be pretty easy to play out a number of quick smokestacks and ramp up the soot counters until your opponent is out of permanents. There are also a number of decks which can pretty much scoop to a turn 1 smokestack + chalice for 0, which makes adding the stacks a big plus. The manabase is much more to my liking now, and doesn't stall out nearly as much. I'd say that if I were to cut a card right now to bring it to 60 cards, it might be Fact or Fiction, but I'm still not sure.

This thing is getting to be what I might consider close to ideal. One more list, just for reference:

//Lock: 12
4 Mindslaver
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Goblin Welder
4 Smokestack

//Draw: 13
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Future Sight

//Mana: 32
4 Metalworker
3 Gilded Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Black lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Volcanic Island
2 Seat of Synod
2 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy

P.S. Does anyone feel like trying this build so we can get a second perspective on things?

[BreathWeapon]

@Baron, I made a brief mention of TPS, The Perfect Storm, Dutch Tendrils, Neo-Academy whatever you want to call it, after my statement on Dragon. I'd like to expand my analyssis on the archetype but I need to wait until something materializes for it. I have other things to playtest as well.

FoW is currently rubbing me the wrong way in Slavery.dec and Krazy Stax. I have never used it ONCE vs Dragon or Mask. I swear to F!ng God it either gets Duressed or Unmasked every game. I don't think its worth running anymore.

However, one card I have been thinking about is Cunning Wish for Slavery.dec. It has a REAL problem vs Null Rod and a C.Wish Rack and Ruin is tech. Workshop with a Wishboard,  

Concerning Deadbolt, your going to need to watch out for Null Rod. It REALLY hoses Deadbolt. I would put in some testing vs B/R Suicide and gauge the extent of the problem for yourself.

@Rozetta

I think Artifact Lands are going to be a bad move come Jan 1st. Null Rod is bad, very bad. B/R Suicide is looking like a very finely tuned weapon vs Neo-Prison, as odd as that sounds

I think running 1 Karn as a dedicated Win Condition and Mox/Chalice hoser is a smart move in Slavery. People are dicks, and they will make you play the game out even if they are under a Slaver lock to burn time on the clock etc etc. I originaly thought that Scepter decks didn't need a dedicated win condition when it had an Imprinted Fire/Ice, I was very wrong. 20 turns with a Metalworker or Goblin Welder is a long time, too much random sh!t can happen with a clock that long.\n\n

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Another count against Artifact Lands is Pernicious Deed.  There are some odd B/G decks out there, and let me tell you, Deed WRECKS Mud!!!  Plus with Null Rod in Fish, and in other SB's, Null Rod makes the game hard enough without shutting down your lands.  Null Rod + Artifact Lands = Scoop Phase.

I've toyed with Great Furnaces, but cannot justify them with the Artifact Hate as it is, and only expected to grow come Jan 1.

I have also, personally, settled on Mind's Eye over Skullcaps.  Yes it's 1 more to cast + 1 to activate, but I can draw more cards over time with them, and I always hated the discard part of the Skullcap.  Although, it weakens the idea of having Ensnaring Bridge in the board.  But against most of the Blue Decks, it makes them think twice about playing card-drawing, as you can follow them.... plus once you drop 2x Mind's Eye... I have had more card drawing with Mind's Eye WelderMUD than I ever did with STAX.

Just my $0.02.

Corwin

[Comrade Seraph]

What do you guys think about the following list, modified off rozetta's, as a budgetized Slavery? I recently picked up some goblin welders and am just trying my hand at the archetype, so the list is quite rough, but I'd appreciate advice/criticisms.

Disruption/Combo: 16
4 Mindslaver
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tanglewire

Enablers: 9
4 Goblin Welder
3 Metalworker
2 Lightning Greaves

Kill: 2
1 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem

Draw: 10
2 Mind's Eye
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Fact or Fiction

Mana: 23 (26w/Metalworkers)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Grim Monolith
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Volcanic Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountains
1 Strip Mine

Problems I've noted in (brief) testing:
- If its first few threats are countered/destroyed, the deck has a tendency to sit with a lot of mana and not much else and let the lock slide away - this is the reason for the mind's eyes, as well as low land count. The dependency of the deck on welders explains the lightning greaves, as protection/combo accelerators, as well as inclusion of a full set of chalices as additional counter-drawers. FoWs were not included as the blue spell count cannot support it.
- The mana base is fragile. A correctly timed waste can cut off all colored mana, which depending on draws can really suck.
- It's a bit slow- on an academy or crypt fueled draw it can run with the best of them, but not having real workshops and moxes hurts. It's still good enough to take on my unpowered control decks, but I don't know that it could handle real power.

I'm really enjoying this deck style and I'd like to make this deck somewhat viable, if it can be done. On a strong draw, even budget slaver can go off turn 2 - that's nuts.

[rozetta]

In testing, the gilded lotus + future sight has been so good. I recommend trying it, since a lot of times I get the lotus in play either with tinker or welder anyway, meaning you can get an easy turn 2 or 3 Future Sight. However, I can imagine that without moxes, you're going to stall more frequently when it's running, but it's still maybe worth a shot in testing.

I run 32 mana sources if you include workers and gilded lotii, but with correct mulliganing (into a hand with enough mana, some must-counter threats (chalice, welder, worker, etc.) and a card draw spell), you'll be okay. I've been testing with 4 artifact land and honestly, mox monkey and the like are just too slow to even worry. The acceleration you get off Metalworker is worth it, since you might not even want to play then, except to recur another artifact. You might try testing Time Spiral or Frantic Search as budget alternatives if you run the gilded lotus plan.

A friend of mine runs the 4 sphere and 4 tangle wire plan, but I've tested just running 4 smokestack instead and it actually does work. The thing I don't like about the sphere/wire plan is that they sometimes cost you time (if the opponent wastes 2 or 3 turns in a row early game) and are ineffective later, meaning dead draws. With the smokestack plan, every one draw is golden, since it helps improve the lock. Taking just one of their turns allows you to cast spells into the void and sac useful permanents to smokestack such that you will be enough ahead to ride the smokestack to victory (a better version of meditate, if you will). If you can recur via welder, you can even keep the smokestacks at relatively conservative numbers of counters and just blast away at their stuff. During this time, dig for all your creatures and put them into play. After this, attacking with multiple welders and workers makes the game last only a few more turns.

[shadowspawn]

Well, I got back from school and looked at the thread, read all the posts and sleeved up Rozetta's most recent Decklist, The only Problem I see with it is the lack of a kill, I know Slaver usually is a kill, but still..I would like to ask what the better card would be for the kill, I really like ClockWork Dragon, And I'm starting to love Duplicant too. If anyone has a suggestion for the kill I'd really like to know. I'm thinking the artifact lands look a bit bad, so I put Fetchies in place of them. I'm actually wondering if Chalice's are all that good come Jan.1, I know they still have there strengths but a win condition seems more important.

[Comrade Seraph]

Chalice for 2 is a house vs. scepter keeper or scepter phid... shuts down new scepters, and all their best scepter targets (impulse, AK, Fire/Ice). That + being a powerful weapon vs. random scrub aggro is keeping them in for me, for now.

I'll experiment with your suggestions, rozetta... unfortunately part of the current deck list is determined by the cards I happen to have, as even using as many of them as possible the deck is still approximately 40% proxies =).

I'll try the stacks but I'm concerned that they're unlikely to go online before T3 without moxes/shops, which is just horribly slow and gives control time to wish for rack & ruin. Wire/sphere are much faster, but I've noticed the tendency of the lock to slide late game, and sacking permanents of your choice is devilish... so perhaps stack should be a 2-3 of.

Sight without power seems sloowwww, but worth testing I guess.

Should probably essay a Mox diamond too.

[BreathWeapon]

@Shadowspawn, Karn for the Slavery kill is about everything you could want for the deck. A 5 Turn clock and Chalice/Mox hoser should be pretty strong.

@Rozetta, i'm going to try out Guilded Lotus for myself over Metalworker. I want to know just how broken that can get.


@Anybody, has anybody tried resurrecting Funker lately with the addition of Thirst of Knowledge, New FAT and Mindslaver? Something about Welding out a Clockwork Dragon awoke the Timmy in me

How is Tangle Wire holding up in your builds? Are they still an early Aggro Hoser and a detterent against Control?

[BuboniC]

@Breathweapon:
Tangle Wire is the final edge vs. Aggro, it loses them speed, and you can just tap moxen/useless stuff, then out-speed them. I honestly don't think sphere should die with Long, expecaily in MUD, I find that their are so many combinations of locks, and Sphere+5 strip effects is one of them, a small one, but it does factor in a surprising amount of games. I am also using -2 Keg(due too the vast of different casting costs in the deck) and +2 Shaman. I've tested this and it seems very strong, I've heard someone else does it, and he did it before me- so anonymous get's props  . The deck's only bad matchup I've seen is vs. Fish, but I still SB Keg, and MD 4 Chalice. I think the # too play chalice for is 2 vs it, and as long as you do that ASAP you win.

[BreathWeapon]

Sphere of Resistance does indeed still have a place in the metagame, and it does belong in wMUD. I know the power of first turn Mox+Mountain+Chalice=0+Sphere all too well. However, in more liberal Prison builds like Slavery.dec, its more fun to look at other options now that Sphere isn't flat necessary anymore. Thats the major point i'm trying to get across on Sphere.

As far as Smokestack goes, I just don't like it anymore. I'd rather play Deadbolt until I find a reason why wMUD is better. Krazy Stax doesn't make much sense either in the wake of Slavery.dec.

[shadowspawn]

Well, I'd like to ask this, should the list of the first post be revised to include less decks? Also, why no talk on Affinity, or Stacker 3? One other thing I'd like to mention is if people think TnT is playable or not? I realy think it isn't, at least not in it's form today, without a necessary amoung of beats, which I belive shuold be 8(Su-Chi and Juggie) and a good draw engine, Sylvan Library seems worthless to me, along with the hurt that Wasteland can do to it, I truly believe TnT should stay dead. After all, Toast, our resident TnT expert said it wasn't could enough.

Also, Smokestack seems worthless alot these days, with the making of decks, they are all trying to get board control fast, and they can usually maneuver around Smokestack without a huge problem. But Smokestack, in a proper lock will seal the game for you. I don't think Smokestack can be replaced properly, if anyone would care to tell me how it could be, I'd like to know.

[BaronSengir]

spheres application is pretty much changing in lots of aritfact prison decks now that long is nearing death. Whereas sphere was a prime play against long and other such combo decks, it can now have a sort of questionable use.

However, sphere is still. It will disrupt -any- deck that needs to completely maximize their mana utilage every turn, like GAT, Combo decks, and the early parts for aggro, possibly keeper. In reality, if I had to drop a 4 of lock piece, I would personally cut Smokestack. Its just too slow to start being effective (albeit if you want to set one down under a wire/sphere lock, etc, but its very conditional), and there are far better choices.

about the wishboard for artifact prison, it kind of seems workable. However, most "set" artifact decks with a definite core (e.g. Stax, MUD) are pretty strung tight enough so that fitting in such new cards is hard to accomplish

about a kill for slavery, why not try Thopter Squadron? Easily castable, and makes millions of 1/1 flying mini-thopters using welders and stuff. It can also counteract being the target of welds, and can fizzle smokestacks by moving tokens on and off.

[shadowspawn]

I've been thinking alot about this today, and I was wondering. Maybe a 2 color build of aggro Workshop. For example, Blue/Red would have welders, Future sight(one of the main reasons I started to think about the idea), Cunning Wish perhaps, and some draw etc. For another Example, Black/Red with Welders, Duress, and other goodies( cant think tonight, nearing bedtime). I'd really like to know what people think of this cause it sounds pretty interesting(thinking of casting juggie after juggie after juggie all in one turn  )

I'm off to bed and won't be able to post anything til tomorrow night, which will include lots of playtesting and card searches for idea's on decks(I have no life  )

EDIT: Grammar(I'm tired...lol)

[Comrade Seraph]

BaronSengir - Pentavus >> Thopter Squadron if you want to go that road. Weld/tinkers in just as easily, +2/+2 and can make/drop pentavites as an instant, all for the low low cost of 2 more mana and no flying on the main guy.

[BreathWeapon]

Damnit, I lost a really long post on TnT so i'll summarize.

Despite being playable in the new environment I don't think it has anything to offer over Stacker other than inferior lock pieces vs Control and Dragon combined with a vulnerable Manabase. It has a pretty dubious match up vs The Chronic so far, needs more testing, which is the future of Keeper as far as I am concerned ... so why in the hell would should we play it?

At any rate, here is my list for it since we don't have one yet.

Engine
4xSurvival of the Fittest
1xSquee, Goblin Nabob
1xAnger
4xGoblin Welder

Disruption
4xTangle Wire
4xChalice of the Void

Tubbies
4xJuggernaut
4xSu-Chi
1xKarn, Silver Golemn
2xTriskelion
1xBosh (Alternate Win Condition via ICBM)

Tools
1xElf Replica
1xUktabi Orangatang

Mana
7xSoLoMoxen
1xTolarian Academy
4xMishra's Workshop
1xStrip Mine
4xWasteland
5xFetch Lands
4xTaiga
1xForest

If you can find any justification for playing this over Stacker, i'm all ears.

[Vegeta2711]

As much as I hate to say it, if your entire meta is like 80-90% aggro TnT is superior to Stacker.    One thing it was always better than my deck at was smashing aggro throughly and quickly. (short of Mask and old Madness anyways)

[BaronSengir]

@shadowspawn: if you want an aggro-workshop, try playing a B/R Mask/Prison. I have a deck sitting around on my computer, I think I'll dig it up if you guys want to see it

@breathweapon: about including tangle wires, I still think sphere would be alot better. Survival and welder tricks that involve the Su-Chi (for hardcast, welder still gets around sphere anyways) completely negate its affect on your side anyways.

about affinity discussion, I think you should at the very least include 2 broodstars or something. They become powerful really quickly and easy to cast after you dropped 4-5 artifacts, which makes them only 3-4 mana to cast (if i remember, it costs 8?)

[BreathWeapon]

The problem with Broodstar has never been its casting cost, but its UU Req and lack of synergy with Workshop, Goblin Welder and Metalworker. I also think its a really bad idea to rely on it as a kill condition when we have a resurgence of STP to look forward to.

I don't see any reason to play Affinity outside of T2, maybe its viable in Extended with the recent bannings but thats it.

I don't think we should even be considered with Krazy Stax, that deck is horribly inconsistant and has an awful manabase to boot.

Slavery.dec keeps getting more and more interesting to play. Right now i'm running a version with - 1 Timetwister - 2 Fire/Ice +3 Cunning Wish and loving it. I'd like to MD Mindtwist and Balance but I just don't have the room

[rozetta]

Hmm, -2 Fire/Ice? Is there another list for Slavery posted somewhere? Sounds more like a control deck with Cunning Wish, Balance and Mindtwist - like Keeper with workshops?

[BreathWeapon]

Scroll back a few pages, I posted mine shortly under Vegeta's. Its still experimental and a little slower than i'd like, but its some fun.

[shadowspawn]

I Agree, that Affinity shouldn't be played outside of t2 but it was seeing a bit of interest earlier this month so I thought it should be brought up, that being said, should I remove it from the list? Sutra, I'd like to see your Aggro-Workshop build it could be interesting testing for DuplicantMud   . I was thinking alot about my Black/Red/Blue build. I think I've decided on blue as a main color with FS, Meditate, Thirst For Knowledge, FoW!! and the broken stuff. Add that with Juggies, etc and the deck should be fast enough, the only problem I see at the moment is finding place for both a lock and the aggro pieces, also should it be only blue? or should black be added etc. I'll make a very rough sketch after I read through the Forums etc. and post back here.

[shadowspawn]

Well guys, the deck isn't very good so I don't even feel like posting it*sigh*The only reason I wanted to play Blue was for the superior Draw Engine(FS), FoW, and the Bokeness like Twister, Ancestral, Tinker. Future Sight ended up being too hard to cast in the time you needed it, FoW made the deck worse(Yes, I'm Serious), and the brokeness usually got countered or didn't make a big enough Difference. The other problem was the lack of space fr a decent lock, decent Aggro, and Decent Protection.

I would like to know how Rozetta has been doing with FS, I haven't tried his build yet because of lack of time. Another thing, I'd like to talk about is when Splashing a color in Workshop is good, I don't say more then 1 color because anything higher then 3 colors without counters is bad.

Also, has anyone been testing Stacker 3?I'm gonna put together a Decklist tonight and test it. I wanna try Stacker 3 with Mind's Eye alot because I find Mind's Eye soo good these days, and Stacker's only real problems was the Draw Engine.

I have so little time to test all this that some of my arguments could be different then yours, greatly different even. I'm always up for criticism, so please post what you can

[centroles]

It's awesome that you guys are working on adapting the many workshop variants into budget decks.

Once you decide on a few budget version that are effective.  Could you please post them in here. I have some budget workshop variants included already but could use more, newer ones. I could also use your help in telling me which variations that I have up are NOT effective for the post Jan meta and thus should be removed. And I would greatly appreciate any help in tuning the budget workshop variants I already have posted, to be more efficent.