Suggested by Myself, and asked by quite a few. I have Dec...

[shadowspawn]

Suggested by Myself, and asked by quite a few. I have Decided to start this thread containing the viability of each Workshop deck and Maybe even making one. Anyways, I would like to list a few options for Workshop Decks Today and comments on each

1-Welder Mud/Mud- I'm not quite sure if either adding red for Goblin Welder and the strong SB cards is better then the strong mana base, consistency and faster start.

Creatures:
x2 Karn, Silver Golem
x2 Triskelion
x4 Goblin Welder
x4 MetalWorker

LockDown:
x4 Chalice of the void
x4 Smokestack
x4 Tangle Wire
x4 Sphere Of Resistance

The Draw:
x3 Mind's Eye
x1 Wheel Of Fortune
x1 Memory Jar

Mana:
x1 Ancient Tomb
x1 Black Lotus
x1 Sol ring
x5 Moxen
x7 Mountain
x4 Wasteland
x1 Strip Mine
x4 Mishra's Workshop
x1 Tolarian Academy
x1 Mana Vault
x1 Mana Crypt

2-TnT-The amount of colors this deck should run is a question that I've been wondering, 2 colors is pretty much obvious, but more then that is really up in the air at the moment, not to mention the bad mana base, the lack of knowing the best creatures for it, and the lack of a lock component which IMO is a very important things these days.

1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Juggernaut
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

1 Phyrexian Colossus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sol Ring
3 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Tangle Wire

1 Triskelion
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Anger
4 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wheel of Fortune

Lands:

3 Forest
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

SB:

3 Artifact Mutation
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Flametongue Kavu
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Xantid Swarm

3-Stacker-I really liked this deck when Stax was around because it was more consistent then that of TnT and had good lock Components but maybe not enough. This deck reallys needs to be looked over and worked on, but the deck in a whole looks promising as an Aggro deck

  8 Mountain
       4 Mishra's Workshop
       4 Wasteland
       1 Strip Mine
       1 Tolarian Academy
       1 Mana Vault
       1 Black Lotus
       1 Sol Ring
       1 Mox Sapphire
       1 Mox Emerald
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Mox Pearl
       1 Mox Ruby
// Guns. Lots of guns.
       3 Shrapnel Blast
       1 Black Vise
// Other Stuff
       2 Mind's Eye (Currently being tested!)
// Lockies
       4 Pyrostatic Pillar
       4 Ankh of Mishra
       3 Chalice of the Void
       3 Blood Moon
// Critters
       4 Goblin Welder
       4 Su-Chi
       4 Juggernaut
       2 Triskelion / Myr Enforcer (Depends if you see aggro)
// Sideboard
SB:  4 Rack and Ruin
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Damping Matrix / Tormod's Crypt
SB:  2 Fire/Ice
SB:  1 Chalice of the Void
SB:  1 Blood Moon

*4-Stax/Crazy Stax-This deck is really open to subject of being thought as playable compared to other decks, however running FoW these days is some good I hear,along with a lock and a decent kill it could be good, but I have neither a Decklist Nor the experience against it to know its viability.

*NO DECKLIST AVAILABLE

5-Affinity-I'm not sure if this should even be considered however it looks alot like Stacker because of the Aggro aspect, however it runs more draw instead of a lock, whether this is good or bad is still a question

      3 Chalice of the Void
      4 Frogmite
      2 Lightning Greaves
      4 Myr Enforcer
// Black:
      1 Demonic Tutor
      3 Duress
      1 Yawgmoth's Will
// Blue:
      1 Ancestral Recall
      3 Broodstar
      4 Force of Will
      4 Thirst for Knowledge
      4 Thoughtcast
      1 Time Walk
// Red:
      3 Atog
// Mana Sources:
      1 Black Lotus
      3 Chrome Mox
      3 Great Furnace
      1 Mox Jet
      1 Mox Ruby
      1 Mox Sapphire
      4 Seat of the Synod
      1 Sol Ring
      3 Talisman of Dominance
      4 Vault of Whispers
SB:  3 Fire/Ice
SB:  3 Rack and Ruin
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Smother
SB:  3 Tormod's Crypt

6-DeadBolt-This too feels like Stacker, I could almost consider it as the new Stacker because of the lock and using creatures to win

 //NAME: Deadbolt v.3.0
// Type: Artifact Aggro-Prison
// Author: Sutra & Wuzzyman
// Format: Vintage
// Screws
     7 Mountain
     4 Mishra's Workshop
     1 Tolarian Academy
     4 Wasteland
     1 Strip Mine
     1 Sol Ring
     1 Mox Sapphire
     1 Mox Ruby
     1 Mox Pearl
     1 Mox Jet
     1 Mox Emerald
     1 Black Lotus
     1 Mana Crypt
     1 Mana Vault
// Keys
     4 Metalworker
     4 Goblin Welder
     4 Lodestone Myr
     1 Karn, Silver Golem
// Bolts
     4 Sphere of Resistance
     4 Tangle Wire
     4 Static Orb
     4 Chalice of the Void
// Doorknobs
     3 Mind's Eye
     1 Wheel of Fortune
     1 Memory Jar

SB: 4 Rack and Ruin
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Null Brooch
SB: 2 Jester's Cap
// Cards worth considering: Mogg Salvage, a replacement for Null Brooch, feels clunky

7-Slaver.dec-This is a real broken deck, playing against it is like playing solitaire but you can only lose, The Lack of decklists is for one reason, if it's not publicly known then no hate can  be used against it   (Smmenen is the new SuperMan)

// Critters
       2 Platinum Angel
       4 Metalworker
       4 Goblin Welder
// Broken Shit
       4 Mindslaver
       1 Memory Jar
// Protection
       4 Tangle Wire
       4 Chalice of the Void
       4 Force of Will
// Draw and stuff
       4 Thirst for Knowledge
       1 Timetwister
       1 Tinker
       1 Time Walk
       1 Ancestral Recall
// Mana
       1 Mana Vault
       1 Sol Ring
       1 Black Lotus
       1 Mana Crypt
       1 Mox Sapphire
       1 Mox Ruby
       1 Mox Pearl
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Mox Emerald
       1 Lotus Petal
       4 Mishra's Workshop
       4 Ancient Tomb
       4 Volcanic Island
       3 Glimmervoid

8-Bosh Senior/Casual version-This is a bit like Slaver.dec with a reanimator twist, I think it should be incorporated as a slaver deck or if the Casual Version wants to be made better, I would love to help

//NAME: Wall of Fat
// Mana
      1 Tolarian Academy
      2 Ancient Tomb
      1 Mana Crypt
      1 Mana Vault
      1 Mox Sapphire
      1 Mox Ruby
      1 Mox Pearl
      1 Mox Jet
      1 Mox Emerald
      1 Sol Ring
      1 Black Lotus
      1 Gilded Lotus
      4 Mishra's Workshop
      2 Polluted Delta
      4 Volcanic Island
// Fat
      1 Karn, Silver Golem
      1 Bosh, Iron Golem
      1 Platinum Angel
      1 Pentavus
      1 Clockwork Dragon
      3 Triskelion
// Card Drawing
      1 Tower of Fortunes
      4 Thirst for Knowledge
      1 Wheel of Fortune
      1 Ancestral Recall
      1 Time Walk
      1 Timetwister
      1 Tinker
      1 Memory Jar
// Tricks
      1 Voltaic Key
      2 Candelabra of Tawnos
      3 Lightning Greaves
      4 Sculpting Steel
      4 Metalworker
      4 Goblin Welder
// No sideboard

If there are any other decks(which I seriously hope not) Let them be noted and taken into account. Help on this would greatly appreciated by all of you playing Workshops, those wanting to, or those just trying to have fun.Thank you greatly in advance.

EDIT:Decklists Added

[BaronSengir]

Since this a good thread, you can check the discusssion in my signature (the link "deadbolt")

Iam also writing a primer for Deadbolt, and its probably going to be released around the next couple weeks. We still need to test, but SB, MD, and other issues are basically worked out.

tweaking of list:
-1 Fetch
+1 Wheel of Fortune

[shadowspawn]

Sutra, I'd like to ask you for your personal opinion on Deadbolt, its matchups and why it's better then other Workshop decks, mainly Stacker as I see it closely that.

[BaronSengir]

Quote why it's better then other Workshop decks

I would say the main, selling reason is that is that its a hybrid aggro-prison. At any time, you instantly switch from one way to another, and it lets you deal with threats that normal artifact prison can't do

I can't really compare lock components, as the most artifact prisons keep people locked down them use smokestack, but my build kind of differs - it instead throws done a one drop, one way statis with recurring wires, and keeps them from doing anything with spheres and chalice.

most answers will be posted in the primer, so look on starcitygames (hopefully it gets accepted)

it also leans a little toward the prison side than stacker, as stacker leans more towards the aggro side. Both have their own pros and cons, but deadbolt is good (as i see it) because it can be aggro-prison and still have sickening dumps with metalworker, etc.

[Vegeta2711]

Because the listing hasn't been updated in forever and for a proper discussion you need decent builds.

//NAME: Stacker 3
// Mana
        8 Mountain
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
// Guns. Lots of guns.
        3 Shrapnel Blast
        1 Black Vise
// Other Stuff
        2 Mind's Eye (Currently being tested!)
// Lockies
        4 Pyrostatic Pillar
        4 Ankh of Mishra
        3 Chalice of the Void
        3 Blood Moon
// Critters
        4 Goblin Welder
        4 Su-Chi
        4 Juggernaut
        2 Triskelion / Myr Enforcer (Depends if you see aggro)
// Sideboard
SB:  4 Rack and Ruin
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Damping Matrix / Tormod's Crypt
SB:  2 Fire/Ice
SB:  1 Chalice of the Void
SB:  1 Blood Moon

This is a version being worked on for the Post Jan. metagame that Koen gave me some advice for. (He just got 2nd in Eindhoven with a S3 build. ) Note though if you take Long into account (If you run Sphere of Resistance or not) you should be fine with running this pre-ban. Ankh's are back because of Dragon and control coming into force again. Blood Moon returns as your not worried about dying on turn 1/2 anymore. Oh and one other plus is the loss of LED in Madness. It should slow Madness down enough to where we should win more games. ^_^

Remember people: Tweak the deck to your meta.

I think you should post builds either from yourself or taken from other people/tournies for general reference.\n\n

[BreathWeapon]

Its good to see that Workshop players are questioning Sphere of Resistance in their builds. While it was an automatic inclusion in the Long environment, it now definately deserves to be reconsidered in many builds. Nice to see Vegeta pre-emptively returning Ankh to Stacker  I'm not too sure about MD Blood Moons tho', I like my workshops producing 3 colorless, not 1 Red

Now, if people constantly insist on making references to Slavery.dec in tournament reports and win statistics can we please get a rough list for it? We know, Mindslaver, Thoughtcast and Goblin Welder ... that leaves a lot out. I'm sure Steve will release one when he is ready, but impatience is tech

[Vegeta2711]

Basically if you resolve Blood Moon your inconvienced, where as your opponent is crippled.  

Here's my horrid rough list of Slaver. The sad part is it still does well. Go randomness! Anyways I lack MD Blood Moon or such tech, I also run Ancient Tomb's MD. You asked, so here ya go.

//NAME: Stuff
// Critters
        2 Platinum Angel
        4 Metalworker
        4 Goblin Welder
// Broken Shit
        4 Mindslaver
        1 Memory Jar
// Protection
        4 Tangle Wire
        4 Chalice of the Void
        4 Force of Will
// Draw and stuff
        4 Thirst for Knowledge
        1 Timetwister
        1 Tinker
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
// Mana
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Lotus Petal
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        4 Ancient Tomb
        4 Volcanic Island
        3 Glimmervoid

[shadowspawn]

Well, Veg has a point here, so I'll post my Welder-Mud Build along with anything Else I can Dig up:


Welder-Mud:Discussion of this deck was happening in my other thread but it wll be moved here,along with the updated build below.

Creatures:
x2 Karn, Silver Golem
x2 Triskelion
x4 Goblin Welder
x4 MetalWorker

LockDown:
x4 Chalice of the void
x4 Smokestack
x4 Tangle Wire
x4 Sphere Of Resistance

The Draw:
x3 Mind's Eye
x1 Wheel Of Fortune
x1 Memory Jar

Mana:
x1 Ancient Tomb
x1 Black Lotus
x1 Sol ring
x5 Moxen
x7 Mountain
x4 Wasteland
x1 Strip Mine
x4 Mishra's Workshop
x1 Tolarian Academy
x1 Mana Vault
x1 Mana Crypt

Deadbolt is Below, but I think the Decklist needs to be updated with a few maindeck changes that I believe to be obvious:

       4 Mishra's Workshop
       1 Tolarian Academy
       6 Mountain
       1 Bloodstained Mire
       1 City of Traitors
       4 Wasteland
       1 Strip Mine
       1 Sol Ring
       1 Mox Sapphire
       1 Mox Ruby
       1 Mox Pearl
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Mox Emerald
       1 Black Lotus
       1 Mana Crypt
       1 Mana Vault
// Keys
       4 Metalworker
       4 Goblin Welder
       4 Lodestone Myr
       1 Karn, Silver Golem
// Bolts
       4 Sphere of Resistance
       4 Tangle Wire
       4 Static Orb
       4 Chalice of the Void
// Doorknobs
       3 Mind's Eye
       1 Memory Jar

TnT, This is Zherb's list in the Vintage Forum

TnT - Daniel Huszár, 2nd Dulmen

1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Juggernaut
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

1 Phyrexian Colossus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sol Ring
3 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Tangle Wire

1 Triskelion
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Anger
4 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wheel of Fortune

Lands:

3 Forest
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

SB:

3 Artifact Mutation
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Flametongue Kavu
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Xantid Swarm

Affinity- this is Nameless' build, I find it the most tuned out of all those I've seen so I'll post it,

//NAME: T1 Affinity
// Artifact:
       3 Chalice of the Void
       4 Frogmite
       2 Lightning Greaves
       4 Myr Enforcer
// Black:
       1 Demonic Tutor
       3 Duress
       1 Yawgmoth's Will
// Blue:
       1 Ancestral Recall
       3 Broodstar
       4 Force of Will
       4 Thirst for Knowledge
       4 Thoughtcast
       1 Time Walk
// Red:
       3 Atog
// Mana Sources:
       1 Black Lotus
       3 Chrome Mox
       3 Great Furnace
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Mox Ruby
       1 Mox Sapphire
       4 Seat of the Synod
       1 Sol Ring
       3 Talisman of Dominance
       4 Vault of Whispers
SB:  3 Fire/Ice
SB:  3 Rack and Ruin
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Smother
SB:  3 Tormod's Crypt

This is Rozetta's Casual Build, As I see the other to look un-focused, if he wants to post the newest build, it could prove helpful,

//NAME: Wall of Fat
// Mana
       1 Tolarian Academy
       2 Ancient Tomb
       1 Mana Crypt
       1 Mana Vault
       1 Mox Sapphire
       1 Mox Ruby
       1 Mox Pearl
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Mox Emerald
       1 Sol Ring
       1 Black Lotus
       1 Gilded Lotus
       4 Mishra's Workshop
       2 Polluted Delta
       4 Volcanic Island
// Fat
       1 Karn, Silver Golem
       1 Bosh, Iron Golem
       1 Platinum Angel
       1 Pentavus
       1 Clockwork Dragon
       3 Triskelion
// Card Drawing
       1 Tower of Fortunes
       4 Thirst for Knowledge
       1 Wheel of Fortune
       1 Ancestral Recall
       1 Time Walk
       1 Timetwister
       1 Tinker
       1 Memory Jar
// Tricks
       1 Voltaic Key
       2 Candelabra of Tawnos
       3 Lightning Greaves
       4 Sculpting Steel
       4 Metalworker
       4 Goblin Welder
// No sideboard


I haven't found Decklist's to the rest As they are lacking, however if someone would post them , I would be grateful and would appreciate anyone's help with this.

[BaronSengir]

Well, I think I'll move my thread decklist over here too, unless I'll be posting the primer on that thread and this when its released.

SB: (Preliminary)
4 R&R (kills evil artifacts)
4 REB (counter-control)
3 Tormod's (handle's dragon)
2 Null Brooch (counter-control, but it seems clunky to me)
2 Jester's Cap (grab wins, but may not be necessary because you already have tormods to handle dragon)
-> Possible addition: Mogg Salvage. Purely for handling Keeper, G@Y Fish, Gay/r, etc, with pesky artifacts like scepter, null rod, and evil stuff like that

a notable change:
-1 Bloodstained
+1 Wheel of Fortune

I've seen wheel of fortune included in Stax builds and MUD builds with R-splash for welder and other tricks.

Iam also wondering about the single City of Traitors? Should I cut for a tomb? Or cut it for a 7th mountain?

[shadowspawn]

I think 7 mountains is the bare minimum for Deadbolt and Welder Mud, I have problems as it is with 7, 6 shouldn't even be a question. Wheel is very strong sometimes screwing your opponents hand and making yours better, I like it alot with metalworker+welder because you end up with tons of mana to pull of neat tricks and stuff. Also if you run Wheel, 7 mountains is a necessity because you A) Have another Red spell and B)Mountains might end up getting discarded from both Wheel and Jar.

I'm Wondering If I should Edit The Decklists into the First Post, any suggestions guys?

[BreathWeapon]

I'm thinking you should cut the lone Karn to up your City of Traitors count to 2. Also, why are you using City of Traitors over Ancient Tomb? The damage it inflicts is negligible and you don't have Smokestack to off set the City's disadvantages.

Thanks for the Slaver list Vegeta, thats what was similar to my sneaking suspicisions for the deck ... tho' Black and White is a plus.

I think Rhozetta's Red and Blue Aggro style workshop seems promising enough to compete with TnT and Stacker. Huge FAT is tech

[Tasmaniac]

Regarding Slaver - I haven't tested this as extensively as other the other variants, but I've repeatedly found the Welders to be nowhere near as borken as they are in other decks.  With 4x Mindslaver and Memory Jar the only things I find myself recurring, are there other cards that can fill some of the slots more effectively?

I know the key to these decks is redundancy but once Slaver gets active it shouldn't need to be recurring turns THAT long to set up a win.

Shadowspawn:  An edit into the first post would be nice so we can see the lists together.  Your call.

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (Vegeta2711 @ Dec. 02 2003,21:33)Basically if you resolve Blood Moon your inconvienced, where as your opponent is crippled.  

Here's my horrid rough list of Slaver. The sad part is it still does well. Go randomness! Anyways I lack MD Blood Moon or such tech, I also run Ancient Tomb's MD. You asked, so here ya go.

//NAME: Stuff
// Critters
        2 Platinum Angel
        4 Metalworker
        4 Goblin Welder
// Broken Shit
        4 Mindslaver
        1 Memory Jar
// Protection
        4 Tangle Wire
        4 Chalice of the Void
        4 Force of Will
// Draw and stuff
        4 Thirst for Knowledge
        1 Timetwister
        1 Tinker
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
// Mana
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Lotus Petal
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        4 Ancient Tomb
        4 Volcanic Island
        3 Glimmervoid

Ancient Tomb is probably the sixth best colorless land in T1. I'm testing 4 in Welder Mud, and four works well here.

I don't want to give away tech, but Platinum Angel is really unnecessary. If you really want a kill card, Karn can eat any enemy Chalices set to 1. Or you can just rely on their deck being able to basically kill itself (eg Dragon, Tog, Mud). Generally, good players will scoop to the slaver lock, but if you're worried, put in a kill card. You don't need two, though.

Metalworker and Tangle Wire are also subpar. There's better stuff out there. Test things that look janky--if it feeds the Slaver, it can be strong. You're missing some possible draw-7s and acceleration, for example.

Of course, things may have changed since Steve's rough build of a few weeks ago. Test this stuff for yourself.

[Sytupal]

why not artifact land goodness in the mindslaver deck? just to MAKESURE you have the goodness to weld or tinker to.  Yes, no ,maybe?

EDIT: especially good with those budget players out there who can't almost count on the mox being in play to weld with.

[Vegeta2711]

Bleh this is just my fun version. I fully plan to let Steve and Max finish it. Running the PA's are just for fun. Besides killing them unless they are Sligh or combo takes me a while. =(

Artifact lands are really good, again I didn't care to screw with a manabase. The Ancient Tomb comment was made because so few people have even attempted using the card outside of budget decks in T1.

Metalworker is actually subpar? I'm amazed, tapping for 10 on turn 2 was good I thought. Wire is certainly shit other than vs. aggro. Windfall is ASS.

Personally I have no intrest in testing this deck, if I ever see it in public I'll test against it, but I get enough Mindslaver Tinker goodness in 1.x.    It's just noone will post ANYTHING on it and if people are going to make stupid references to it, people need to associate it with something. ^^

[Jacob Orlove]

Metalworker is fine if people aren't prepared to kill it. Unfortunately, ~99% of T1 decks pack Force and/or other answers. You can run it, but I found some other stuff to be better.

I would totally post a list, but it's not my tech. I can't just give out something given to me in confidence. Most of the build is obvious, though, as you've shown. I think Hadley has a version that's close to the meandeck one--you could try asking them for their tech.

[BreathWeapon]

Thanks for the points of directions with Slavery Jacob. An interesting thought, and my original presumption, was that you guys would use the Funker base with 4xMindslaver. I may have to test that for myself.

If we are going to dump Tangle Wire and Metalworker, are we really playing a deck that should even use Workshops? I think Tangle Wire is still pretty damn useful vs Aggro and Control, what is your justification in stating that it is sub par? As far as Metalworker, I agree it should be cut for additional Draw 7's and the like.

Grr, this leads me to even more questions about the deck than before, heh. Its like Krazy Stax, but (-) Smokestacks and Spheres of Resistance with Thirst for Knowledge replacing Meditate as the draw Engine. All in all, the absence of Smokestack and Sphere of Resistance is a significant departure from current prison decks ... and undoubtably the right decision now that Long is dead. It would seem as tho' the new environment will be incredibly healthy for this sort of Prison deck in the near future.

A few direct questions towards the deck's over all scheme, shouldn't it be packing a full set of Waste/Strips to help combat Dragon in place of the Ancient Tombs, or is the acceleration they provide invaluable to the decks success in the face of the opponents Strip/Wastes? Also, what do you think about a 8 City of Brass/Glimmervoid Manabase? It would allow some truely Krazy sh!t like Xantid Swarms in the SB  

Well, taking all of my own suggestions into account, i'll work up my own deck list and post it in a half hour or so. I need coffee and time to let these revelations set in.

Edit: Back and full of caffeine.

BreathWeapon's, "Its Not My Tech.dec"

Disruption (12)
4xForce of Will
4xTangle Wire
4xChalice of the Void

Lock (8)
4xMindslaver
4xGoblin Welder

Kill/Utility (2)
1xKarn, Silver Golem
1xMemory Jar

Search/Manipulation (9)
4xThirst for Knowledge
1xTinker
1xTimetwister
1xTimewalk
1xAncestral Recall
1xDemonic Tutor

Removal (2)
2xFire/Ice

Manabase (27)
1xStrip Mine
4xWasteland
1xTolarian Academy
4xMishra's Workshop
4xCity of Brass
4xGlimmervoid
1xManavault
1xManacrypt
7xSoLoMoxen

Sideboard

4xRack and Ruin
4xXantid Swarms
4-6xDragon Hate
A-Tormod's Crypt
B-Coughin Purge
C-Stifle
D-Swords to Plowshares
2xFire/Ice
1xBalance


After some deliberation, here is the version I have settled on. The City of Brass/Glimmervoid Manabase seems to be holding up better than I had hoped for, testing is still limited.

The 2 Fire/Ice are a personal choice, and I haven't been dissapointed with them yet. Removing; Gorilla Shaman, opposing Goblin Welders, Metalworkers and Withered Wretch is HUGE. They also feed FoW or Cycle+Tap at their worst. I was going to use Mystical Tutor and Windfall in their place, but I feel both are rather sub par in this deck.

Wheel of Fortune didn't make the cut for multiple reasons. I don't want to rely on Draw Sevens too much in a future Metagame of Dragon. The Wheel doesn't pitch to FoW, and Demonic Tutor is more flexible.

I decided to include 1xKarn as a Kill Condition and Mox/Chalice hoser. The idea of a 20 Turn clock with Goblin Welder does not impress me.

Concerning the Side Board, Xantid Swarms are a HOUSE vs Control. I am currently dedicating 4-6 slots vs Dragon, and the proper combination of Hate cards is anyone's best guess. I would include atleast 2-3 Tormod's Crypt followed by more utilitarian hate such as Stifle and STP. 2 extra Fire/Ice for shitz and grinz, and Balance because who the hell expects it from Workshop

The deck is incredibly fun to play, from my dozen or so games while sitting at Starbucks. Killing my opponent with his own Fire/Ice on a Scepter was F!ng priceless.

Thoughts, Criticims, Death Threats?\n\n

[rozetta]

Since people have been posting their slavery builds on here, I'll post my latest version which I tested yesterday.

I'm not completely happy with this nor any of the builds I've tried. The deck changes from day to day depending on what I tweak and experiment with.

It seems to make very little difference how fast the deck goes off depending on whether the slots used by voltaic key, grim monolith and gilded lotus are actually replaced with artifact lands. However, the gilded lotii allow you to bring in Blood Moon.

The problem with this deck is that there's very little disruption (no spheres, tangle wires, FoW etc.) We've also tested versions with lock components and it seems apparent that there's also little difference in the matchups (speed versus disruption, since Mindslaver is essentially disruption itself). Those versions with lock components spend more turns playing out spheres and tangle wires while waiting to set up mindslaver (which they normally don't run 4 of).

I've not been a big fan of running FoW, since there are barely enough blue cards to support it and those are cards you don't normally want to pitch anyway. The FoWs dilute the deck, show up at random times when you don't need them, are barely castable early game and certainly don't help with Metalworker.

Which also brings me to Metalworker. I really feel it belongs in this particular build for the explosiveness it creates. An ideal play for this deck is the first turn Metalworker - hence the Ancient Tombs. Although it doesn't generate the sort of mana it could in wMUD due to the decreased number of artifacts, it is still better in the deck than not, giving you, on average, 6 mana when used. However, the deck can run into problems if the early Metalworker is countered or killed in some cases, since you may be banking on playing some higher cost cards turn 2 and not have sufficient land to play out of it.

Assuming you aren't hit by too much disruption yourself (i.e. counter magic, stifle), this build should allow you to fairly often take your opponent's second turn. The things that really need ironing out are a) the mana base, which is quite vulnerable to heavy wastelanding, b) it's vulnerability to null rod, c) matchup versus control.

The sideboard I've listed is quite random. The deck runs fine under sphere which is a good choice if you expect combo in the form of long.dec. I haven't included it in this sideboard. The overloads are primarily to kill null rods and chalices which is all you really need worry about. REBs are for Energy Flux and other annoying blue crap. Triskelion for welders. Cap, Blood Moon, Crypts versus dragon, etc.

With the number of Null Rods, Wastelands and Stifles around, I'm trying to figure out how to improve those above problems without losing any of the speed of the current build.

4 Mindslaver
3 Chalice of the Void

1 Bosh, Iron Golem
1 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
*2 Lightning Greaves
*3 Gilded Lotus
*1 Voltaic Key

4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
*1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Spiral

1 Sol Ring
1 Black lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
*1 Grim Monolith
4 Volcanic Island
1 Glimmervoid
1 Great Furnace
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy

//Sideboard: 15
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Overload
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blood Moon
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Triskelion
1 Jester's Cap

* denotes what I consider to be perhaps suboptimal cards currently and slots which are constantly being changed.

[zenit]

Has anyone tried mindslaver in TNT builds maybe one or two is all you need as an additional threat.

[BreathWeapon]

I'm not sure whether or not FoW is even necessary now that Long is dead, my build is obviously Jan 1 oriented. I suppose it will completely depend on the need for speed vs Spoils decks, Mask and Dragon. I really don't buy the, "Your going to pitch cards you would rather cast" argument tho'. Ofcourse your going to pitch cards you'd rather cast, its a question of necessity ... not conveniance.\n\n

[Corwin_of_Amber]

FYI:  I've been running 2x Mindslavers in place of 2x Powder Kegs in my WelderMUD Build for a while now, and found them quite useful.  There are times I want to move to 4x, to increase the frequency of drawing them, but they do work VERY well in WelderMUD... especially with active Smokestacks on the table... "I'll Slave you... make you sac everything *I* want you to sac"

I agree that Null Brooch is klunky, and I hate having it on my board, but I can't find a good replacement for it, as Blood Moon still doesn't make sense.

But as for Jester's Cap, I still swear by them, as a properly resolved Cap can just neuter so many decks.... Cap away Keeper's Morphlings/Decrees, Hulk's Togs, Long's Wishes, Fish's Counters/Null Rod's, Dragon's Animate Targets, etc. etc. etc.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

But back to the original discussion of the different Workshop-based decks, I have been playing Stax, MUD, and WelderMUD for the past few months, and have settled on WelderMUD, as what I find the best-of-both-worlds deck.  

Stax was always problematic for me with it's very janky mana base.  Getting the consistant coloured mana was always a big issue, and while the game-breaking spells were nice, too often the Draw-7 helped my opponent more than it helped me.

MUD was the most consistant, mana-wise, and a bit more explosive than WelderMUD, but man I missed the Welding trix!  The ability to weld in-and-out always seemed so much better to me, especially as a way to keep the Tangle Wires going.  

WelderMUD seemed the best middle-of-the-road.  It give the annoying power of the Welders, and the power of Rack & Ruin on the board (or even Mox Monkeys maindeck - which I ran recently for an expected artifact & powered-heavy tournament, and they worked well), for a slight reduction in the mana constantsy, but I believe it's worth it.  There's nothing like reccurring Tangle Wires so that I tap 3 permanents (including hte Wire), and my opponent taps 7 permanents each upkeep!

Eventually it all boils down to playstyles and pet cards.  I have consistantly run 1x Time Vault on my SB, as it is a pet card, I have a MINT Beta Vault, and I missed the Meditate effect from Stax.  Has it won me many games?  Not really... maybe only 3 or 4 games, but it amuses me    

2 vs. 3 vs. 4x Karn vs. Slavers vs. Kegs vs. God-only-knows-what-else is the key to personalizing the deck.  There are 54-58 fixed cards (depending on who you ask), so those last 2-6 cards + SB are the key to making the deck flow the way that you like best.

--

[rant] For those who keep screaming for Workshop's restriction, try playing a Workshop Deck.  You will see that Workshop truely has a very significant drawback.  I can't count the number of times I have tried to tap my Workshop to pay for the Mind's Eye, or Karn's Mox-Munching, or many other mana needs.  Workshop decks consitantly make Top 8, but how many are actually WINNING the tournaments?  Not many.  It is a fun deck to play, but if I wanted to walk into a Tournament to WIN, I'd play Hulk, or Fish, or even Dragon... not a Workshop Deck.  Does Workshop promote some explosive Turn 2's?  Yes.  Is it 3 mana from one land? Yes.  Is it broken?  No... not really.  It has a balanced drawback, and it is quite vulnerable to the same Non-Basic hate that so many other cards are.   Compare that to Mana Drain, or Force of Will.  Is it fair that you can outright counter my spell with no permanents?  No.  Is that the way of the game?  The mere existanct of FoW in the environment balances Workshop.  Can I drop a turn-1 Metalworker?  Yes... can you FoW it too, in response?  Yes.... equation is equal.  So stop griping, build some damn decks, and let's see what the metagame does! [/rant].

[BuboniC]

I think Slaver MUD has ALOT of overlooked potential. I am going too start tweaking mine, please- don't fall into the sea of many who say "CHALICE MD 4 EVERYWHERE", expecaily with Long being dead beyond recognition. I think that the kill may be Slaver and Karn(Welder slaver in until they lose/ tap anything or sac anything you want) I use 2 slavers in my MUD, and I have done alot of beautiful things with them(Balance when they had 3 mages in play=beautiful) I use 3 Karn due too meta game changes, and 2 Slaver. Slaver cures the weakness of MUD, which is choices. If you have 2 kill conditions, ust like in Deadbolt, then it makes your deck able too suddenly change course and kill a different way. But Slaver gets hurt a ton by graveyard hate, so you use Karn. Also, I don't think Deadbolt can compete until tweaked, but I would like too be proved wrong- I'd like too see it win a tourney for power. The strongest of all workshop decks is MUD. But why are people saying it isnt even tier 1 anymore? Here is a chart:

Blood Moon>Keeper
Powder Keg, Chalice>Fish
Tormod's Crypt, Wasteland>Dragon
Rack and Ruin,Tormod's Crypt,Wasteland,Welder>Mirror

Also, here is my MUD list:
4 Metal Worker
4 Goblin Welder
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
4 Grafted skullcap(or 3 mind's eye and 1 wheel of fortune, whatever suits you)
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Mindslaver
1 Memory Jar

Mana:
10 Mountain
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault

I have yet to decide the Skullcap vs. Mind's Eye, but I think it would weaken the deck even more too Fish, it's hardest matchup.

[BreathWeapon]

Now that the necessity for Sphere of Resistance has dwindled off the map, and Smokestack is frequently sided out, I imagine you could cut 4 Smokestack and 4 Sphere of Resistance for 4 Mindslaver and still have 6 slots left to play with. Its hard to sayh how well this will work out, I have never got a Slaver down and activated before turn 3. Its atleast a thought tho'. I imagine there are multiple skeletons that can support a Mindslaver lock, the best of which is relative to the meta.

I'm interested to hear what people think about the 8 City/Glimmer manabase for Workshop decks. I think it opens up a world of possibilities with minimal weakness'. Hell, it might be better in Stax on account of Stifle alone. Thoughts?

[shadowspawn]

Lots of posting done since I've been at school, so my time to reply. Rozetta your build looks strong but unfocused, Lightning Greaves are good and all, they probably speed the deck up too, but is it really better then running say blood moon or something? Also Bosh looks strong as a win, but a tad on the expensive side, when I play your Big Fat Wall deck, I tend to rely on metalworker alot, I find this a bad thing because its an easy target for all the removal people are playing these days, with Lightning Greaves they can do something at least. Also concerning your creature base, Clockwork Dragon is a huge creature, but I think the rest needs work, Karn is really good if you're running 4 Mindslaver, because you can just win with it sometimes .

Corwin, I feel the same way you do about the differences between Stax, Mud and WelderMud. Stax couldn't really just start off with a bomb like in Welder Mud, If Stax got the lock down however, it would hold, there was no stopping it due to the amount of card draw through Meditate and the Draw 7's

Bubonic, I like how you think Mindslaver can change the strategy of Welder mud with minimal effect, like in Deadbolt, I'll have to try this obviously.

BreathWeapon, I'm not too sure about your mana base, however it does look strong, Glimmervoid usually never gets saced(Hurkyl's would still be an ass though) and CoB doesn't have that big of a drawback(although Tangle Wiring CoB is fun ).

I would like to know everyone's thoughts on the 'Lock', should it really be changed for the new meta, or is nothing really better? And if running MindSlaver, Ankh of Mishra, Pyro Pillar, and Smokestack can set up a huge lock. I would also like to know your thoughts on Blood Moon, I would love to fit in the deck, maindeck or not, it's becoming the bomb it should be.

[BreathWeapon]

I don't think I would be bold enough to Main Deck Bloodmoon, but the Sideboard is always an option. It PWNZ U/B/g Dragon straight to hell.

That said, I don't think its "necessary" to change our Workshop locks, but we now have the option to. With Long dead, Sphere of Resistance simply isn't necessary anymore ... like at all. I think Smokestack has been pissing a lot of people off lately, which is undoubtably what prompted Smmenen to create Slavery.dec and attracted me to Deadbolt in its infancey. Smokestack does nothing vs Spoils Combo decks like Mask.dec and Turn 2 Dragon.dec, isn't fast enough to deal with random Aggro like Fish and its questionable vs Keeper on account of DoJ and Goblin Trenches. Arguably, the farther Prison decks can remove themselves from symmetrical lock components, the more powerful they stand to become. I think this statement is what validates Mindslaver and Loadstone Myr/Static Orb as the "optimum" Prison locks.

Ofcourse, thats not to say that Symmetrical Lock components don't have their place. Tangle Wire and Chalice of the Void aren't going anywhere, Ankh/Pillar is a HOUSE in Stacker and Bloodmoon ownz this format. Nevertheless, if its possible to replace a symmetrical lock component with one that only effects your opponent, we should obviously try and do so.

[BaronSengir]

Well, I'll probably cut the City of Traitors for an Ancient Tomb, but ancient tomb is dubious. Assuming you use it every turn, it puts you onto a 10 turn time clock. Which is not very good. Iam probably either going to convert that slot to a Mountain or keep it as a City

BTW, about running more red sources, Iam actually running 8. Lotus (can be considered, because its easily recurred), Mox, and 6 Mountains. I'll probably up it to 7 mountains though, from the decklists Ive seen, they need less of the "more than 1 mana per tap" (ancient tomb, workshop, etc etc)

about running mindslaver, do you think it fits as a slot in this deck? Perhaps running a couple MD can be a good choice. It really helps, probably, when I want to swing for a kill, and I can tap all of his creatures and force him to null himself for my next turn 20/20 trampling Myr. The thing about Mindslaver is, its still a 6cc, not matter what. Even with Metalworker and everything else, running high costing cards might stretch you thin. This card could get 2-3 slots in Artifact Prison, but shouldn't get all 4, unless you run Slavery.dec. Its more of a "win NOW" card.

About tweaking the Deadbolt list, what do you think can be done to it? As of now, taking the mountain issue into reponse, I have cut. Also, Bosh, or Karn? Karn probably fits better in this deck, but when it becomes a 0/8 wall, its hard to aggro. Bosh is OK, but its 8 to cast, even though its a huge 6/7 beatstick. But using Bosh means that I'll need more red sources, which Iam running kind of thin on right now. It also requires mana to "fling"

About converting Sphere of Resistance, I think that its still an incredible lock card. It still stalls Dragon, Keeper, and remnants of the hibernating GAT and Hulk as all these decks wish to maximize and utilitze as much of thier mana every turn. A single sphere disrupts that, making them lose tempo by actually paying for their mox and keeping their spells down

//NAME: Deadbolt v.3.0
// Type: Artifact Aggro-Prison
// Author: Sutra & Wuzzyman
// Format: Vintage
// Screws
       7 Mountain
       4 Mishra's Workshop
       1 Tolarian Academy
       4 Wasteland
       1 Strip Mine
       1 Sol Ring
       1 Mox Sapphire
       1 Mox Ruby
       1 Mox Pearl
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Mox Emerald
       1 Black Lotus
       1 Mana Crypt
       1 Mana Vault
// Keys
       4 Metalworker
       4 Goblin Welder
       4 Lodestone Myr
       1 Karn, Silver Golem
// Bolts
       4 Sphere of Resistance (Mindslaver?)
       4 Tangle Wire
       4 Static Orb
       4 Chalice of the Void
// Doorknobs
       3 Mind's Eye
       1 Wheel of Fortune
       1 Memory Jar

-1 City of Traitors
+1 Mountain

SB: (Preliminary)
4 R&R (kills evil artifacts)
4 REB (counter-control)
3 Tormod's (handle's dragon)
2 Null Brooch (Klunky, has anybody found a substitute for this yet?)
2 Jester's Cap (grab wins, but may not be necessary because you already have tormods to handle dragon)
-> Possible addition: Mogg Salvage Purely for handling Keeper, G@Y Fish, Gay/r, etc, with pesky artifacts like scepter, null rod, and evil stuff like that

@shadowspawn: By all means, edit the first post to include the decklist. Then we can delete decklists from our other posts, and PM you with our latest versions so you can change it accordingly. I think thats the most organised way

Also, I took your 7th mountain advice to heart, and I cut the City of Traitors.

@Breathweapon: About starting to evolve prison decks that are less reliant on having a set of symmetrical lockparts, I concur with that. A deck's versatility is somewhat defined of its ability of its stand alone cards, although Syngergy is definelty the most important factor. You want a deck that, in a given situation, can handle itself with a few selected cards, rather than a board of dead permanents (for example, having only one Smokestack on the table and nothing else)

Id say Deadbolt can do that, except for Static Orb. It either works with Tangle Wire or Myr (or both), and it starts being affective once an opponent has dropped 3 or more pernaments. Myr is obviously a beatstick and a lock piece as well, which is why its a integral part.

@Rozzeta: Keep the Gilded Lotus. Don't ask me why, but lets say I had a insiders peak. Also, try FoW, if you can find the room. Its really quite good. Also, try thoughcast. It could gain potential under the amount of artifacts that you run.


about the question about the Lock pieces, as shadowspawn and everybody else is asking, I think that it would be the most important to make a lock set that can work individually, BUT, once thrown on the board togethor, UTTERLY blows the opponent away. Kind of like (Iam not praising my deck, rather judging it like a outsider) Deadbolt, it can work individually (well not quite, needs a utility card out like Welder or a complementary card, but its close), and when dropped togethor (e.g. Wire/Orb/Myr + Welder) = Incredible Pain.

[shadowspawn]

Well I added the decklists to the first post, however I don't think any of the previous posts should be erased, due to the topic of the thread which is evolving Workshop decks.

Sutra, your Deadbolt list looks good, better then it was in the beginning. To answer your questions, MindSlaver shouldn't replace Sphere, I honestly don't think your lock should be changed at all, the only thing that I'm worried about with your deck is the damage Gorilla Shaman and opposing Goblin Welders can do to the deck. Karn is the best secondary Win You can get, Bosh is far too expensive, even for Mud.

Finding a one sided lock is hard, and I haven't thought of any better then those of Deadbolt and Mud. Mindslaver, and the original Stacker3 lock deserve some testing, i'm still trying my WelderMud build like it is and Trisk seems good. The only thing I'm worried about is Dreadnought(although after SB the matchup gets tons better), Reanimated Creatures like Force etc, those are things Trisk can't handle very well. Reading the TnT thread, I saw Duplicant, I saw it when looking through the Mirrodin Primer, but never really liked it, I mean 6 mana that is sometimes dead(vs Keeper and a few other deck) I also saw Elf Replica, I like it alot, I mean an artifact that kills enchantments, there's not much better, of course the only problem with this is the Green in the activation cost. I don't wanna add a secondary color to WelderMud, so the replica is kinda outta the question, but for TnT I consider it a must.

[BuboniC]

Im working on "top secret deck" of MUD, it will be released in the power tournament at The Gathering for a Mox Jet(5 proxy) just for a heads up, it will be 2 colored, but still the strong MUD base, but some wierd things will be happening, with I will right a long description of the deck, and why you should play it over every single artifact prison. I am not kidding, it is so far the most solid deck, and is better than MUD, and it still is imature. I will give you a view of it tommorow. Also: I played Trisk for awhile in my MUD and Mindslaver swaps its spot(they both get rid of welder-smokestack/Keg/something)

[Vegeta2711]

Oh yeah, just for anyone who wants to work with the Slaver deck more. I'm pretty sure 6-8 Artifact Lands, Gilded Lotus and Blood Moon are somewhere in the good build. Artifact lands obviously combo with Welder and Thirst, Lotus prevents BM lock and is effective 3 mana for the combo and BM just is good. ^^ Again lots of theory and rememberance.