I have been sitting on this decklist for some time, but u...

[Phantom Tape Worm]

I have been sitting on this decklist for some time, but up until today it has all just been theory and playtesting.  But because i was able to attend a good sized (30 man) high powered tourney today, and it so happened that i WON (actually we split the prize) that tourney, i can now put my official stamp of approval on the deck and share it with all of you.

I present to you:

Gay Red
4 grim lavamancer
4 cloud of faerie
4 spiketail hatchling
3 voidmage prodigy

4 force of will
1 misdirection
3 daze
4 standstill
4 curiosity
3 null rod
1 ancestral
1 time walk

4 mishra's factory
2 faerie conclave
1 strip mine
4 wasteland
1 library of alexandria
1 mox sapphire
2 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
2 island
4 volcanic island


This deck is extremely good.  Is it better than mono-u gay fish??  Hard to say, but i'm leaning toward a yes.  The combined synergy of the cards in this deck is just mindblowing, incorporating all of the original "combos" but adding in new tricks that allow for increased control of the game.

Grim lavamancer is the best fish card EVAR.  He opens up a completely new dimension for this deck and solves so many problems that the original mono-u build simply could not handle.

Right now, I can't even go into all the faggoty goodness that this deck packs.  Suffice to say though, this deck is a total sex pot and if you can't see that just by looking at it, you need to seriously re-evaluate your sexual orientation.

[the Luke]

Yay! Go the gay men.

I've been playing Voidmage Prodigy in Fish for the past 6 months or so, and really like it. I also love the Grim Lavamancer in R/G Taiga. A few questions:

Has the Prodigy worked well for you?

How many times have you sacrificed Grim Lavamancer to counter a spell with Prodigy's ability?

Have you thought of playing Flying Men instead of Spiketail Hatchling? Is the Force Spike ability that good?

I'm also interested in your sideboard. Can you show it off, with maybe a few comments? I'm sure REB makes an appearance.

Thanks,

-Luke

[Soulfly]

More questions:

Im playing MD Stifle, and it is working great in the combo matchups, how are you doing without?

How is Daze working, and is it worth playing in the Mono U version? (i am playing that until i get the cards i need for this one)

1 Misdirection is not alot, have you considered changing it for a Psionic Blast or Merchant Scroll, sometimes you just need Psionic Blast to win, and a single Misdirection seems very random.

But it seems like a nice build i will look forward to try it out!

-Soulfly

[wollblad]

The deck looks interesting, but I have some concerns:

1) You have a lot of creatures that have a saccrifice ability. Isn't then 4 curiosity one too much since it also is a card you won't play unless you are certain not to loose the target creature?

2) Spiketail Hatchling is a bit questionable. Along with Daze it might work, but isn't it better to have something for one mana only, for example Flying Men since you don't need it to be a Merfolk anymore?

3) Why not play Black Lotus? It can give some amazing starts. I have seen it being played in U/w Fish and it was far better than I thought it would be.

[Mellow D]

@the Luke:  
I imagine that the Lavamancers replace Flying Men AS the 1-drop in Fish.  

@PTW:
What does the Lavamancer/Prodigy configuration yield as a bonus over the Lord/Rider or Flying Men/Hatchling versions?  Were there a lot of aggro decks in the tourney that necessitated the usage of the Lavamancers?  It seems that you're losing eight guys that can fly or islandwalk because of them.  I just want to know what the advantages are over the original blue build, which can still support Psionic Blast in a pinch.\n\n

[Klep]

For those questioning the Lavamancer, it would seem to me that a one-drop that has synergy with the Voidmage Prodigy, lets you Shock the opponent repeatedly, and allows you to trade one-for-one with TNT's fatties would be a welcome addition to a deck that used to get run over by them.

@wollbad
4 Curiosity is still good because the sac abilities in the deck help protect the Curiositied creatures, letting you feel safer doubling-up if need be.  You also want to see Curiosity early, so having several is important.  Finally, if Curiosity resolves, you're drawing several cards a turn anyway and you should be able to deal with whatever your opponent throws at your curious faeries.

-David 'Klep' Kleppinger, Raving Lunatic

[Chaos Blade]

Do you think Rootwater is obsolete? And in regular Fish are u considering of dropping Lord

[Caelestis]

Is the 2x Conclave any inconvience in this? Also, does the Prodigy do much of anything?

[Chaos Blade]

Also it seems in this deck that Spiketail isnt as effective with Daze maybe? Which one is also better do u think Daze or Stifle

[Klep]

I have the same concerns as Chaos Blade regarding Daze.  Its not as bad as most people think it is, but it doesn't seem like its an optimal card either.  I'd be interested to know if anything else has been tested in Daze's slot and if so, why Daze was selected instead.

-David 'Klep' Kleppinger, Raving Lunatic

[Cobra Commander]

On Daze:
Including Daze along with the Spiketail Hatchlings is not a bad idea.  For example, your opponent can see the Spiketail in play and may compensate by leaving the extra mana open to get the spell past the Hatchling.  Does the Fish player have the Daze?  This puts the opponent in a nice bind.  A timely Daze can be very handy for Fish, but even the threat of Daze can be helpful as well.  Having both Daze and Hatchling in the deck shouldn't diminish the effectiveness of either card.

Daze is effective and a great bluffing card, but may not be the best choice in certain environments.

The addition of Spiketail Hatchling (and for that matter Voidmage Prodigy) gives Fish some flexibility and efficiency that it was lacking in its creatures.  Even without Daze, Spiketail is still a very solid choice for Fish.  

On Faerie Conclave:
Having fewer Faerie Conclaves in the deck probably does not cause any inconvenience.  They fly, yes, but they also cost 1U to activate, making them less effective in multiples than Mishra's Factory.  With all the draw power of Fish, shrinking the Conclave count won't significantly reduce the man-land angle of attack.

That said, as I have no experience with U/r Fish it would be very nice to hear more from PTW.

[bebe]

I don't know if you remember but I mentioned to you that a gay fish deck with grims cleaned my clock ( I was playing rector/trix) at the last TO tournament I attended. Your deck is close to what I played against.
A few questions ...
I hate Daze. Yes, I know what its for. Would not an extra Misd and two Stifles be better. - I know this has been asked ...you know I've advocated Stifles since the day they came out.
When I play red I usually have a Shaman or two main deck. Does it disrupt your tempo too much to include them?
What is your sideboard? Rack & Ruin or Energy Flux? Fire/Ice? Arcanes? Mazes?

last ...
Shouldn't that be


Those Bloody Gay Fishmen  \n\n

[Caelestis]

By inconvience I am talking more about the fact that they CIP tapped, the 1U to activate hurts too, but slightly less. It is quite bad to tempo to play this outside of first turn most of the time, and the multiple color angle to this just makes the prospect worse.

I agree with Bebe with the Stifles, well, I plain love Stifles...they are never really a dead card in your hand. Daze has a better function in that it can act as a one turn sphere, but Stifle can net you more than that most of the time.

[Phanto]

PTW, the father of Gay Fish .


The one misdirection seems far too wanton and random for me to approve of. I also dislike the Prodigy, as it seems to expensive and weldy to play well.

I also love the stifle's, but it seems as if they should be religated to the SB, as Daze works on everything.

What effect have the prodigys had on the games you played, and do you think they're worth it?

[Phantom Tape Worm]

Ok, where to begin...

I opted for the splash in this deck because I am operating under the assumption that non-basic hate is becoming more infrequent. I chose red as the splash color because it grants a couple of very strong sideboard options, but the real strength of red is that it gives the best fish creature ever: grim lavamancer.

Lavamancer is so much better than manta rider in almost every conceivable way.  He is a wrecking ball against a plethora of decks and still has the requisite evasion to make him a fine curiosity target.  He also single-handedly shores up some of the weaknesses that the loss of lord of atlantis creates.  Problematic creatures like hippie, welder and most of the time even shapeshifter are now not problems at all.

In sligh lavamancer runs out of fuel too often, but not in fish.  The silly card draw and longer game plan make him a perfect fit.  I really can't say enough good things about him, he's just wow.


Spiketail hatchling is solid, it's as simple as that.  The force spike ability is VERY relevant to a deck that runs 5 strips, 3 null rods, and 3 daze.  Saccing him once he's curious isn't a huge concern since by the time you do sac him curiosity will have already replaced itself.


Cloud of faeries needs no explanation.


Voidmage prodigy is a house.  His ability is amazing.  Once he's in play he's very hard to play around and he has great synergy with the lavamancers.  If manta rider's spot got filled by the grim, lord's spot got filled by kai.  The UU casting cost keeps him a 3 of.

The fact that creatures in this deck can stop spells from resolving gives me a warm fuzzy.


ALL of these creatures pulled their weight on sunday, sometimes grim was MVP, sometimes hatchling was, sometimes it was voidmage.  At no point in any of my games did i wish i had a lord, nor manta riders, nor rootwater thief.  If i had played with mono-u's creature base, i would have lost some games that Gay red won.

The creature base is exactly as it needs to be.


The spells:

Daze is amazing in this deck.  Combined with 5 strip effects, nulls and hatchlings, daze is a beast-hoss.  And yes, the bluffing factor makes it that much better, no one wants to be the sucker that walked into daze.  The thing is, it's a losing proposition, if the opponent tries to play around it they lose tempo which is great for the tempo deck

Would i consider daze in the mono-u build?  after playing it in gay red, i'd still say no (though not a resounding no, mind you) because mono-u doesn't run the hatchling and has more conclaves to power.


Just 1 misdirection.  Yes just 1, this is not random nor ill conceived.  Misd needs to be in the decklist as a threat.  Without it, the opponent can play his targetted spells without fear.  The opponent must constantly be second guessing himself and tricked into misplays.



No psionic blasts which is a shame, but lavamancer does most everything they did anyway, so no worries.



You'll notice the mana base is absolutely terrible, this was unavoidable.  However i will say this much, the thinning effect of the fetchlands is extremely noticable to anyone who has played mono-u and then moved to this.  This is both a good thing and a bad thing, mana comes less often so there are times where you'd like to go aggressive with the man lands and you just don't have the mana to do it AND play spells that turn.  It's a fair trade though since you are more likely to run into spells.



My board on sunday was comprised of:
2 pyroclasm (for gob's and stompy)
2 maze of ith
2 fire/ice
1 REB
1 BEB
1 arcane lab
1 null rod
3 top secret uber card of sex
2 rack and ruin


I am very impressed with this deck.  Like the original gay fish, it is much stronger than it appears.

[Soulfly]

After i saw your build yesterday i created a mono U version with flying men instead of mancers, and it worked great. I had 3 Stifle maindeck aswell and no MisD. And what can i say, it worked great! Stifle is a house against staks and almost never dead. Im having some problems against goblin sligh and suicide though, guess i better get those mancers in a hurry.....

-Soulfly

[Dante]

Quote (Phantom Tape Worm @ Sep. 16 2003,02:23)You'll notice the mana base is absolutely terrible, this was unavoidable.  However i will say this much, the thinning effect of the fetchlands is extremely noticable to anyone who has played mono-u and then moved to this.  This is both a good thing and a bad thing, mana comes less often so there are times where you'd like to go aggressive with the man lands and you just don't have the mana to do it AND play spells that turn.  It's a fair trade though since you are more likely to run into spells.

Did some testing last night, 10 games vs welder MUD (trike version) - in several of the longer games, I had gotten to a point where I had fetched/drawn all 6 islands and was still drawing fetches...maybe consider testing cutting down to 4 fetch and add another island.

Dante

[Phantom Tape Worm]

Quote (Dante @ Sep. 16 2003,08:31)

Quote (Phantom Tape Worm @ Sep. 16 2003,02:23)You'll notice the mana base is absolutely terrible, this was unavoidable.  However i will say this much, the thinning effect of the fetchlands is extremely noticable to anyone who has played mono-u and then moved to this.  This is both a good thing and a bad thing, mana comes less often so there are times where you'd like to go aggressive with the man lands and you just don't have the mana to do it AND play spells that turn.  It's a fair trade though since you are more likely to run into spells.

Did some testing last night, 10 games vs welder MUD (trike version) - in several of the longer games, I had gotten to a point where I had fetched/drawn all 6 islands and was still drawing fetches...maybe consider testing cutting down to 4 fetch and add another island.

Dante

It's very much a balancing act.  The more fetchies you cut the worse lavamancer (and other red board cads) becomes.  The mana base is IMO where it needs to be.  Yes, sometimes you are going to run out of islands, and yes, nonbasic hate is very good against you.  It's a weakness you simply have to accept if you are going to splash red.  This is one of the reasons i am not willing to come out and say definitively that this deck is better than the mono-u build.

The deck is essentially playing 3 colors in this order: Blue, colorless, and red.

The amount of blue and colorless sources in the deck remains the same, however the thinning effect of the fetchlands means that over the course of the game you are less likely to draw as much colored mana.  I would love to just wave a magic wand and solve all the mana issues, but in order for the deck to do everything it needs to do (play under standstill, cast/activate lavamancer in the early game, daze, have a high threat density) i see no other way.

The mana base IS necessarily bad...the question is can you live with that.

[superscrub]

PTW - I had the same issue with U/W Fish.   The man/strips wreck the deck.
To fix this mana base I would do the following
-1 library of alexandria (How much abuse are you getting out of Rich's POS libarary?)
-1 Mishra's Factory;  5 man lands worked great in U/W Fish (I started with 6 and tried 4; 6 proved too much, 4 proved too little)
+2 Island smooths over the mana base.

- 1 Wasteland; 4 strips proved great in U/W Fish but with all one cost counter magic floating around might not be worth the cut
+1 U/x Sac Land.

[Chunky]

I've been reading much about Fish and so I built myself a mono-U version with the merfolks. It was pretty fun to play but I think the U/r version is better, without the fish.
This is the decklist I want to play with:

Creatures:
4x Cloud of Fairies
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Spiketail Hatchling
3x Flying Men

Draw:
4x Standstill
4x Curiosity

Spells:
4x Force of Will
2x Misdirection
2x Psionic Blast
3x Fire/Ice
2x Null Rod
1x Black Vise

Land:
6x Island
3x Mountain
4x Volcanic Island
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Fairie Conclave
2x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Maze of Ith

Sideboard:
Changes every week.

I live in a pretty high powered meta, but there are also many newbie creature decks around. That's why the extra Fire/Ice and Psionic Blast are and the Maze MD.

I'm a huge fan of the Black Vise because it can easily deal 3-5 damage the first few turns if you get it on the table.

I don't like the Voidmage Prodigy because I'm usually tapped out because of casting spells and attacking with the Manlands, so I can't counter with paying UU.

Please give some good comment so I can make it better  
And no, I don't have P9  

And thanks PTW for all the information about the decktypes

[rmn]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm surprised not to see Blood Moon mentioned anywhere.  Seems like it would go really well.

[Mellow D]

You must be missing the fact that PTW's list runs only two Islands and a Sapphire for pure blue mana, and everything else is non-basic.  In addition to only four maindeck red cards, you can't support Blood Moon like that.

[James, Wizard Naive]

I am still most uncertain of Voidmage Prodigy being included in the deck.  PTW says it "is a house", but how often do you want to keep available the UU to pay for the counter ability?  What spells are there to utilize this open mana if you don't use his abilty?  I thought the "Gay" strategy was to play lots of cards, tap out each turn, and use zero-cost counters.  Doesn't Voidmage Prodigy work against this plan?

[Chunky]

Quote (James, Wizard Naive @ Sep. 16 2003,11:17)I am still most uncertain of Voidmage Prodigy being included in the deck.  PTW says it "is a house", but how often do you want to keep available the UU to pay for the counter ability?  What spells are there to utilize this open mana if you don't use his abilty?  I thought the "Gay" strategy was to play lots of cards, tap out each turn, and use zero-cost counters.  Doesn't Voidmage Prodigy work against this plan?

I totally agree. That's the reason I don't want to run the Voidmage Prodigy. If I got spare mana after my first main phase I want to use it for my Manlands or Instants like Fire/Ice and Psionic Blast.

[rmn]

Quote (Mellow D @ Sep. 16 2003,10:56)You must be missing the fact that PTW's list runs only two Islands and a Sapphire for pure blue mana, and everything else is non-basic.  In addition to only four maindeck red cards, you can't support Blood Moon like that.

Actually, I was missing the fact that there are manlands.  Derr...

[Luskan]

PTW:  Any chance you'll be writing up a tourney report?  It would be interesting to see your matchups and how they played out.

[Caelestis]

I quite agree with some others about Voidmage, it is too reactive a card. You cannot keep UU open consistantly to keep it as a threat, and if it is not a counter threat, it is just a 2/1. To fuel Lavamancer there are other options, Prodigy just appears to be somewhat iffy for me. It runs in contray with the rest of the deck's strategy

[Phantom Tape Worm]

Quote (Luskan @ Sep. 16 2003,12:08)PTW:  Any chance you'll be writing up a tourney report?  It would be interesting to see your matchups and how they played out.

Unfortunately I didn't take notes during the tourney.  BUT...a quick synopsis of how things went:

gay red vs 5 color black based control (fully powered, totally unfocused) 2-1   <--he got a 1st turn bloodmoon to resolve against me game 2, i conceded and moved to game 3
Lavamancer was big here to shoot down hippies.

gay red vs updated academy (no LEDs) 2-0
spiketail hatchling was amazing here

gay red vs ninja mask 2-1
Lavamancer owned

gay red vs GAT 0-0 <----Draw into top 8

gay red vs long.dec 2-0
Voidmage was MVP

gay red vs GAT 2-0
all of the creatures pulled their weight.  At one point he was so desperate to get a deed through the counter wall that he forced a spiketail only to get his force misd'd

gay red vs long.dec 0-0 <-----split prize



Basically the games usually came down to this:
-I disrupt mana base through early wastelands/null rod
-I drop creatures/have spells in hand that allow me to time walk
-I draw lots of cards
-repeat


I was really hoping to get paired up against hulk because all the testing i've done shows that hulk is an extremely favorable matchup.

Quote

Quote Quote (James, Wizard Naive @ Sep. 16 2003,11:17)
I am still most uncertain of Voidmage Prodigy being included in the deck.  PTW says it "is a house", but how often do you want to keep available the UU to pay for the counter ability?  What spells are there to utilize this open mana if you don't use his abilty?  I thought the "Gay" strategy was to play lots of cards, tap out each turn, and use zero-cost counters.  Doesn't Voidmage Prodigy work against this plan?

I totally agree. That's the reason I don't want to run the Voidmage Prodigy. If I got spare mana after my first main phase I want to use it for my Manlands or Instants like Fire/Ice and Psionic Blast.

There are times when nothing but another hard counter will do.  And you're right, his ability doesn't always come into use, sometimes you'd rather just tap out and lay beats.  In that case though he's a fairly efficient bear, and then once you've got board position on your side, he's a timewalk.  I think he's great; he was key against long.dec.

Also, keep in mind, rootwater thief's ability cost the same amount, the only difference being that it was on your turn rather than your opponents.  I know it will seem strange at first not tapping out all the time, but i got used to it (lavamancer is better to use at opponent's endstep anyway).

[Webster]

Quote superscrub Posted on Sep. 16 2003,10:31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PTW - I had the same issue with U/W Fish.   The man/strips wreck the deck.
To fix this mana base I would do the following
-1 library of alexandria (How much abuse are you getting out of Rich's POS libarary?)
-1 Mishra's Factory;  5 man lands worked great in U/W Fish (I started with 6 and tried 4; 6 proved too much, 4 proved too little)
+2 Island smooths over the mana base.

- 1 Wasteland; 4 strips proved great in U/W Fish but with all one cost counter magic floating around might not be worth the cut
+1 U/x Sac Land.

@ superscrub: Until you play with LOA in fish, you truely have no idea of how good this card is. I will draw at least 4 cards from this every game that I get it into play.

Four mishra's factory is a must. You really need as many manlands as you can squeeze into the deck. You need threat density. Quite a few games are won by swinging with manlands for the win after a must-counter spell resolves and clears the board.

Cutting strip effects isn't an option. The deck wins with tempo and wasteland is one of the pure embodiments of tempo itself. I would run more strip effects if I could but dust bowl is just horrible.

[superscrub]

@webster:
Fish with LOA is amazing but LOA is a win more card.  It has been proven in Type 1.5 that LOA is not need; just extra goodness packed in the deck.   The  U/R has moved away from the massive card advantage that wins with to a more tempo based stragety.  LOA robs you of tempo by reducing you to one spell a turn.
My main question to PTW was did you see a massive card gain from the library?
From what playtesting I have seen (and yes Webster, I knew about this deck before he posted it here.  The Lavanmancer in his deck where mine at one point)
is he never got to abuse the hell of LOA.  
The man lands are a key spell but not as vital as having the right colors.  I learned this the hard way playing U/W Fish.  For that deck I need island by turn 1 more then a man land.   It becomes even more important in R/U Fish.

The wasteland cut I am on the fence about.   Wasteland is good in this deck because of the Synery with Daze and Mr. Spiketail.  That combo gives you the massive tempo gains not just plain old wasteland.     Wasteland before Sac Lands was a HUGE tempo maker, with Sac Lands not as much anymore.