centroles
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« on: November 21, 2003, 09:29:56 pm » |
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It seems that there is a great deal of strain on budget players trying to compete in an almost degenerate environment where the fundamental turn is a mere two. So until the DCI wises up and decides to either errata the solomoxen to read legendary artifact or restricts Mishra's Workshop and Worldgorger Dragon effectively slowing down the format, I felt that this frustration could in part be relieved by posting a comprehensive listing with an explanation of all competitive budget decks I've run across on the mana drain forums. There is a budget version included of every major and viable archetype found in vintage with the sole exceptions of Nether Void and Illusionary Mask. These decks were excluded because they inherently rely on cards that are well beyond the reach of most budget players. The decks listed utilize new tools such as Chrome Mox, Spoils of the Vault, Chalice of the Void and Isochron’s Spectar that provide budget decks with the much needed boost to remain viable.
If you have a revision to a decklist I posted, or even if you have any modifications you would like to suggest to a decklist on here that's not yours, please feel free to chime in and I'll make any changes deemed necessary. In addition, if there are any viable competitive budget decks that you feel I left off, please feel free to post a decklist. And please help me keep this thread up to date with the latest tech to the posted decks based on newer releases, changes due to changes in the banned and restricted lists and any new decks and variants that may pop up. I am perfectly open to editing in any changes you request so that the original post will always remain an up to date reference.
And lastly, one disclaimer; if you're the author of a decklist that I chose to use on this thread, please be aware that I will regularly be modifying and updating the lists according to the feedback I receive. As a result, the decklist you originally posted will probably not be identical to the decklist listed on this thread. For this, I apologize. If you're not comfortable with me using one of the decklists you posted on this forum, please contact me and I'll remove it immediately.
Now onto the decklists...
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Aggro
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Mono Blue Gay Fish
Critters 4 Flying Men or Manta Riders 4 Cloud of Faeries 4 Thalakos Seer or Rootwater Thief or Spiketail Hatchling 4 Voidmage Prodigy or Lord of Atlantis or Serendib Efreet
Draw 4 Curiosity 4 Standstill
Disruption 4 Force of Will 2 Misdirection 4 Stifle or Daze 3 Null Rod
Mana 1 Chrome Mox 1 Strip Mine 4 Wasteland 4 Mishra's Factory 4 Faerie Conclave 9 Island
Sideboard 4 Energy Flux 3 Maze of Ith 3 Blue Elemental Blast 3 Tormod's Crypt 2 Hurkyl's Recall
This is a fairly standard monoblue build of one of the most viable budget decks in the format. The deck is designed to lay down some creatures with evasion while disrupting any answers your opponents may have. When metagamed properly, this is one of the few decks that can keep up with and have a chance against fully powered decks. Other sideboard possibilities include Chalice of the Void, Daze, Disrupt, Psionic Blast, Back to Basics, Annul, Chill, Hoodwink, Boomerang, Suq'Ata Firewalker and Arcane Labratory.
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Red Blue Gay Fish
Critters 4 Grim Lavamancer 4 Cloud of Faeries 4 Spiketail Hatchling 3 Voidmage Prodigy
Draw 4 Curiosity 4 Standstill
Disruption 4 Force of Will 2 Misdirection 4 Stifle or Daze 3 Null Rod
Mana 1 Chrome Mox 1 Strip Mine 4 Wasteland 4 Mishra's Factory 4 Faerie Conclave 4 Polluted Delta 4 Volcanic Island 2 Island
Sideboard 3 Tormod's Crypt 2 Blue Elemental Blast 2 Red Elemental Blast 2 Rack and Ruin 2 Energy Flux 2 Maze of Ith 2 Fire/Ice
This is a fairly standard build of Red/Blue Gay Fish, one of the strongest decks in the current meta. The deck is similar to Mono Blue Gay Fish except that it sacrifices it's airtight mana base in order to be able to play Grim Lavamancer and use it synergetically with Voidmage Prodigy. Red also adds a great deal in terms of sideboard tools.
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Zherbus's Chalice Black
Mana 13 Swamp 4 Dark Ritual 1 Lotus Petal 1 Chrome Mox 1 Sol Ring
Draw/Tutor 1 Demonic Consultation 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Necropotence
Disruption 4 Duress 4 Hymn to Tourach or Unmask 4 Chalice of the Void 4 Sphere of Resistance 4 Sinkhole 4 Wasteland 1 Stripmine
Critters 4 Phyrexian Negator 3 Mishra's Factory 3 Nantuko Shade 2 Withered Wretch
Sideboard 4 Carrion Beetles 2 Maze of Ith 2 Contagion 1 Null Rod 1 Diabolic Edict 1 Nevynrall's Disk 1 Masticore 1 Chains of Mephistopheles 1 Powder Keg 1 Yawgmoth’s Will
This deck is the latest evolution of suicide black. It plays more disruption in order to buy time for a slower kill. There are quite a few variations on the build. Unmask is used in some builds to get rid of dead cards after an early Chalice for one. Yawgmoth's Will often proves too slow in this deck due it's dissynergy with Sphere. It's difficult to generate enough mana to recur more than one card with a Will, as Sphere makes everything more expensive and one drops are often shut out by Chalice.
My personal build includes an unorthodox choice, Wretched Anurid. I've never been a big fan of Lotus Petal or Withered Wretch anyways. This is probably because I play in a relatively light Dragon and Workshop environment. In a Workshop heavy environment, a red splash for sideboard cards like Rack and Ruin, Red Elemental Blast, Gorilla Shaman, and Blood Moon is virtually a necessity.
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Bebe's Druid Reanimator
Mana 1 Chrome Mox 1 Sol Ring 1 Lotus Petal 2 City of Brass 2 Gemstone Mine 4 Bayou 3 Llanower Wastes 4 Fetchlands 4 Dark Ritual 4 Elvish Spirit Guide
Utility 4 Hermit Druid 4 Reanimate 2 Sutured Ghoul 2 Exhume 1 Spiritmonger 1 Krosan Cloudscraper 1 Verdant Force 1 Krosan Reclamation 1 Dragon Breath
Tutor 4 Worldly Tutor 3 Buried Alive 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Entomb
Disruption 4 Duress 2 Cabal Therapy 1 Xantid Swarm
Sideboard 3 Xantid Swarm 3 Sylvan Safekeeper 1 Plated Slagwurm 4 Chalice of the Void 4 Pernicious Deed
This deck just sleeps. No one really plays it a lot but it has consistently performed well when brought it out of hiding. Steve designed a version with all the power that was not as consistent as this and really no faster.
The likelihood of a good opening hand that will combo out by turn three is very high. Note as well that the engine can be used succesfully with Dragon as well - Dicemanx and I fooled around with it. The deck functions well because it has the needed redundancy and disruption to make it potent even if the graveyard is removed.
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Crater Hellion's Budget Tog
Critters 3 Psychatog
Disruption 3 Duress 4 Counterspell 2 Mana Leak 4 Force of Will
Draw/Tutor 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 4 Accumulated Knowledge 4 Brainstorm 2 Intuition
Utility 3 Isochron Scepter 3 Cunning Wish 1 Fire/Ice
Mana 1 Sol Ring 1 Chrome Mox 4 Polluted Delta 1 Flooded Strand 4 Underground Sea 3 Volcanic Island 1 Strip Mine 2 Wasteland 8 Island
Sideboard 1 Fling 3 Chalice of the Void 1 Skeletal Scrying 3 Null Rod 2 Energy Flux 1 Chain of Vapor 4 Red Elemental Blast
This is a budget version of the Psychatog decks (both Hulk and Growatog) that ravaged type one a few months ago. Anyone who has played any format within the past year should already know how Psychatog decks operate. A Chrome Mox and Chalice of the Void probably also warrant consideration. This build utilizes a red splash but a green splash utilizing Tropical Island, Quirion Dryad, Berserk and Artifact Mutation is also certainly viable.
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Vegeta's Goblin Chains
Mana 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Vault 1 Lotus Petal 2 Mountain 4 Ancient Tomb 4 Karplusan Forest 4 Taiga 4 Wooded Foothills 1 Chrome Mox 2 Elvish Spirit Guide
Utility 4 Food Chain
Critters 1 Siege-Gang Commander 1 Goblin Sharpshooter 2 Goblin Matron 4 Goblin Ringleader 4 Goblin Warchief 4 Goblin Recruiter 4 Goblin Piledriver 4 Skirk Prospector 4 Goblin Vandal 4 Goblin Lackey
Sideboard 4 Chalice of the Void 4 Tormod's Crypt 4 Naturalize 3 Crash
This is perhaps one of the fastest aggro decks ever created. It uses extremely synergetic goblins and goblin abilities in order to abuse Food Chain and obtain turn three kills.
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Eric Kerzinger's Stomp
Critters 4 Basking Rootwalla 4 Savannah Lions 4 River Boa 4 Rogue Elephant 3 Hidden Guerillas 3 Hidden Gibbons 3 Quirion Ranger
Utility 4 Wax/Wane 4 Rancor 3 Giant Growth 3 Swords to Plowshares
Mana 4 Elvish Spirit Guide 4 Land Grant 4 Forest 4 Savannah 4 Windswept Heath
Sideboard 1 Absolute Grace 3 Absolute Law 2 Choke 1 Circle of Protection: Black 1 Enlightened Tutor 2 Null Rod 2 Serenity 1 Swords to Plowshares 1 Tsabo's Web
This is the European take on Stompy. The white splash helps it survive inspite of the ominpresence of Chalice and Workshop decks. It's surprisingly competitive.
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Corvel's Standard Sligh
Mana 19 Mountain 1 Strip Mine
Critters 4 Goblin Cadets 4 Gorilla Shaman 4 Jackal Pup 4 Mogg Fanatic 3 Mogg Flunkies
Utility 4 Incinerate 4 Lightning Bolt 4 Chain Lightning 4 Reckless Charge or Pyrostatic Pillar 3 Fireblast 1 Fork 1 Black Vise
Sideboard 3 Wasteland 4 Blood Moon 4 Rack and Ruin 4 Null Rod
This is a slightly tweaked (different sideboard) version of Corvel's sligh deck. It's virtually unchanged from pre-Mirrodian versions of sligh and dies to a Chalice of the Void outright. But never the less, it's about as fast as sligh gets and the new sideboard is incredible against the current metagame. Besides, more and more decks are taking out Chalice now that long is dead. Thus this deck still deserves mention.
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Crater Hellion's Dryad Sligh
Critters 4 Quirion Dryad 4 Jackal Pup 4 Goblin Cadets 4 Kird Ape 3 Gorilla Shaman
Utility 3 Isochron Scepter 2 Naturalize 4 Price of Progress 4 Lightning Bolt 4 Chain Lightning
Mana 1 Sol Ring 1 Chrome Mox 1 Lotus Petal 4 Wooded Foothills 2 Bloodstained Mire 4 Taiga 4 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 6 Mountain
Sideboard 2 Naturalize 2 Crash 4 Tormod's Crypt 4 Red Elemental Blast 3 Chalice of the Void
This is classic sligh with a twist. Instead of playing a plethora of super efficient one casting cost spells, the deck instead plays with representatives from all parts of the early game’s mana curve. This in turn makes the deck far more resilient in dealing with Chalice of the Void.
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Control/Prison
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Shannon O'Meara's Slax
Mana 3 Ancient Tomb 4 City of Traitors 1 Grim Monolith 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mana Vault 9 Mountain 1 Sol Ring 1 Strip Mine 1 Tolarian Academy 4 Wasteland
Utility 4 Chalice of the Void 4 Mind's Eye or Sharpnel Blast 1 Memory Jar 4 Pyrostatic Pillar 4 Sphere of Resistance 1 Wheel of Fortune 3 Winter Orb 1 Black Vise
Critters 4 Goblin Welder 4 Juggernaut 4 Myr Enforcer
Sideboard 3 Blood Moon 3 Duplicant 2 Pyroclasm 4 Rack and Ruin 3 Tormod's Crypt
The deck is closely related to Stacker 3, an aggro-control Workshop deck that uses soft-lock pieces to slow its opponents down, while big artifact creatures beatdown and win the game.
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Shannon O'Meara's Vineyard TnT
Mana 1 Mana Vault 1 Grim Monolith 1 Sol Ring 3 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 4 City of Traitors 4 Eladamri's Vineyard 3 Forest 4 Wooded Foothills 4 Taiga
Utility 2 Sylvan Library 4 Survival of the Fittest 1 Memory Jar 2 Blood Moon 4 Chalice of the Void
Critters 1 Phyrexian Colossus 1 Karn, Silver Golem 3 Squee, Goblin Nabob 2 Triskelion 4 Myr Enforcer 4 Juggernaut 4 Goblin Welder 2 Anger
Sideboard 2 Sphere of Resistance 2 Blood Moon 3 Rack and Ruin 2 Duplicant 3 Tormod's Crypt 3 Naturalize
This deck plays identically to Benjamin Rott's Tools 'n Tubbies deck, with the exception of using City of Traitors and Eladamri's Vineyard to replace Mishra's Workshop and Moxes. Unfortunately, the deck suffers from the same weaknesses as normal TnT, that is, a serious lack of speed. The maindecked Chalices alleviate this problem somewhat, but it's still plagued by a weak Combo matchup.
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Ifflejink's Aggro Slax
Mana 1 Mana Vault 1 Sol Ring 1 Strip Mine 4 Wasteland 3 Metalworker 2 City of Traitors 2 Ancient Tomb 1 Tolarian Academy 4 Great Furnace 9 Mountain
Critters 4 Goblin Welder 4 Juggernaut 4 Su-chi
Utility 4 Shrapnel Blast 4 Sphere of Resistance 4 Tangle Wire 4 Goblin Charbelcher or Metal Worker 1 Memory Jar 3 Chalice of the Void
Sideboard 1 Winter Orb 1 Ensnaring Bridge 1 Gorilla Shaman 2 Bottle Gnomes 2 Blood Moon 2 Tormod’s Crypt 3 Rack and Ruin 3 Red Elemental Blast
This is a more aggressive Workshop variant. It's only real goal is to slow you down with disruption and kill you as fast as possible.
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Crater Hellion's Welder Mud
Disruption 4 Smokestacks 4 Tangle Wire 4 Sphere of Resistence 4 Chalice of the Void 3 Winter Orb 1 Stripmine 4 Wasteland
Utility 4 Goblin Welder 3 Grafted Skullcap 1 Memory Jar 1 Wheel of Fortune
Critters 2 Karn, Silver Golem
Mana 3 City of Traitors 1 Tolarian Academy 5 Mountain 4 Great Furnace 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mana Vault 1 Grim Monolith 1 Lotus Petal 4 Metalworker 3 Ancient Tomb
Sideboard 1 Winter Orb 1 Ensnaring Bridge 1 Gorilla Shaman 2 Bottle Gnomes 2 Blood Moon 2 Tormod’s Crypt 3 Rack and Ruin 3 Red Elemental Blast
This deck is the strongest proof that even after Mishra’s Workshop is restricted, artifact prison decks will still be alive and kicking. Even without utilizing any of the Mox, Black Lotus or a single copy of Mishra’s Workshop, the raw power of the Welder Mud archetype still pulls through on a fairly consistent basis. The interaction between the cards is essentially identical to that of Slax. While the deck isn’t nearly as fast as fully powered Welder Mud or some of the decks listed above, the permanent advantage it possesses, the incredible amount of synergy that exists between the cards, and the capacity for playing a first turn Sphere of Resistance and Chalice of the Void followed up with a second turn Tangle Wire remains largely undisturbed.
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Crater Hellion's Gay Control
Utility 4 Isochron Scepter 3 Fire/Ice 1 Morphling
Draw/Tutor 4 Accumulated Knowledge 4 Brainstorm 1 Intuition 3 Cunning Wish 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Merchant Scroll
Disruption 4 Counterspell 4 Mana Leak 4 Force of Will
Mana 1 Sol Ring 1 Chrome Mox 1 Strip Mine 4 Wasteland 4 Flooded Strand 1 Polluted Delta 4 Volcanic Island 10 Island
Sideboard 3 Blood Moon 3 Energy Flux 1 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Masticore 4 Red Elemental Blast 3 Chalice of the Void
This deck originally started as a post Mirrodian version of Red/Blue fish. Once the critters were eliminated for more utility spells such as Isochron’s Spectar, the deck evolved into the version you see. It’s a fairly simple control deck, counter any significant spells your opponent casts and hope to survive long enough to gain control of the board.
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Crater Hellion's Cherry Parfait
Disruption 3 Chalice of the Void 3 Swords to Plowshares 3 Abeyance 2 Orim's Chant 2 Powder Keg 2 Disenchant 1 Blood Moon 1 Humility 1 Balance 1 Tormod's Crypt
Utility 4 Scroll Rack 3 Land Tax 2 Tithe 3 Isochron Scepter 1 Goblin Charbelcher 1 Raise the Alarm 1 Eternal Dragon 2 Argivian Find 1 Zuran Orb
Tutor 1 Enlightened Tutor
Mana 1 Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond 1 Sol Ring 1 Lotus Petal 2 Mountain 4 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 14 Plains
Sideboard 2 Tormod's Crypt 3 Ivory Tower 1 Disenchant 1 Swords to Plowshares 3 Red Elemental Blast 2 Story Circle 2 Blood Moon 1 Orim's Chant
This deck can be viewed as the budget player’s keeper deck. While keeper has more utility spells at its disposal, this deck attempts to compensate for the drop off in utility and in power with a more consistent mana base. The play style however remains largely unchanged. One card that is notably absent from the sideboard though it undoubtedly deserves multiple slots is Rack and Ruin.
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Abeyance's Cherry Parfait
Mana 14 Plains 2 Mountain 1 Plateau 1 Wasteland 1 Sol Ring 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox 1 Strip Mine
Utility 4 Land Tax 4 Scroll Rack 4 Isochron Scepter 1 Tithe 3 Goblin Charbelcher 1 Balance 1 Enlightened Tutor 3 Blood Moon 2 Zuran Orb 4 Orims Chant 4 Swords to Plowshares 3 Argivian Find 2 Humility 2 Disenchant
Sideboard 3 Tormod's Crypt 4 Red Elemental Blast 3 Chalice of the Void 2 Abeyance 3 Abolish
This is a more streamlined build of parfait than what most are used it. It's more consistent but packs less utility.
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Combo
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Crater Hellion's Budget Dragon
Critters 4 Worldgorger Dragon 2 Verdant Force 2 Squee, Goblin Nabob 1 Ambassador Laquatious 1 Sliver Queen
Utility 3 Dance of the Dead 3 Necromancy 3 Animate Dead
Draw 4 Bazaar of Baghdad
Disruption 4 Duress 3 Unmask
Tutor 4 Buried Alive 1 Entomb 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 2 Metagame Slots
Mana 4 Dark Ritual 1 Polluted Delta 4 Bloodstained Mire 5 Swamp 3 Ancient Tomb 1 Chrome Mox 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Vault 1 Mana Crypt 1 Lotus Petal
Sideboard 4 Metagame Choices 3 Chalice of the Void 3 Tornod's Crypt 3 Reanimate 1 Verdent Force 1 Defense Grid
The infamous Worldgorger Dragon deck, this is easily one of the most powerful decks in this article. The kill revolves around placing the Worldgorger Dragon in a graveyard and reanimating it. This starts an infinite loop that allows one to generate an infinite amount of mana and deal an infinite amount of damage! Possible considerations for the metagame slots include Demonic Consultation, Cabal Therapy, Defense Grid, Spoils of the Vault, Tainted Pact, or additional Squee, Goblin Nabob.
While this is a relatively cheap deck, the inclusion of Bazaar of Bagdad may put it out of the budget range for some. But a Bazaar of Bagdad/Squee free version of Dragon is certainly viable if it opts to play four copies of Spoils of the Vault, some Jalum Tome or possibly splashes blue for Brainstorm, Compulsion, Frantic Search, Read the Runes and the Intuition/Accumilated Knowledge combo.
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Vikram Vaka's Rector Trix
Utility 4 Academy Rector 3 Illusions of Grandeur 2 Donate 1 Yawgmoth's Bargain 1 Necropotence 1 Rushing River
Disruption 4 Duress 4 Cabal Therapy 4 Force of Will
Draw/Tutor 4 Brainstorm 1 Impulse 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Lim-Dul's Vault 1 Yawgmoth's Will
Mana 4 Dark Ritual 3 Elvish Spirit Guide 1 Chrome Mox 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mana Vault 1 Sol Ring 1 Tolarian Academy 4 Polluted Delta 4 Underground Sea 3 Scrubland 3 Gemstone Mine
Sideboard 1 Balance 1 Mind Twist 1 Abeyance 2 Seal of Cleansing 3 Blue Elemental Blast 3 Coffin Purge or Carrion Beetles 1 Island 1 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Meddling Mage 1 Phyrexian Negator
This is a particularly interesting deck to play. The combo revolves around playing an Academy Rector and subsequently sacrificing it to Cabal Therapy in order to directly put Yawgmoth’s Bargain into play. Once this is achieved, it becomes a relatively simple matter to draw into Illusions of Grandeur, draw into sufficient mana sources to play it, draw into sufficient mana sources to Donate it, and then draw into sufficient mana to bounce the Illusions of Grandeur back to your hand, usually killing the player. Carrion Beetles is absolutely incredible against TnT, Dragon, and mirror matches.
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Breath Weapon's Budget Trix
Disruption 4xForce of Will 4xDuress
Draw/Tutor 4 Brainstorm 4 Spoils of the Vault 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Demonic Consultation 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Necropotence 1 Yawgmoth's Will
Utility 4 Illusions of Grandeur 4 Donate 2 Rushing River
Mana 1 Chrome Mox 1 Mana Vault 1 Mana Crypt 1 Sol Ring 1 Lotus Petal 4 Dark Ritual 4 Fetchland 4 Underground Sea 5 Island 5 Swamp
Sideboard 1 Mind Twist 1 Island 1 Hurkyl's Recall 2 Coffin Purge 2 Withered Wretch or Carrion Beetles 2 Energy Flux 3 Blue Elemental Blast 3 Phyrexian Negator
This deck also revolves around targeting your Illusions of Grandeur with a Donate for the kill. But instead of facilitating this by using Academy Rector to put Yawgmoth’s Bargain into play, this deck simply tutors up the cards it needs with a Spoils of the Vault. This is currently one of the only viable Combo decks that doesn't use the graveyard. Avoiding Hate is an important point to make when considering why you would want to play U/B Spoils Trix over Rector versions.
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Crater Hellion's High Tide
Utility 4 High Tide 4 Palinchron 2 Brain Freeze 1 Braingeyser 1 Fastbond 1 Regrowth 1 Time Spiral
Disruption 4 Force of Will 3 Counterspell
Draw/Tutor 4 Brainstorm 4 Meditate 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Merchant Scroll 1 Frantic Search 3 Cunning Wish
Mana 1 Sol Ring 1 Chrome Mox 4 Flooded Strand 4 Tropical Island 15 Island
Sideboard 3 Energy Flux 2 Chain of Vapor 1 Stroke of Genius 3 Back to Basics 1 Snap 1 Brain Freeze 2 Maze of Ith 2 Misdirection
This is a casual deck that probably won't fare well in a highly competitive metagame. The core combo revolves around playing both High Tide and Palinchron in order to generate infinite mana and force your opponent to draw an infinite number of cards.
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Many decks are definately more viable with long now gone. But now more than ever, Workshop variants, Dragon, and to a lesser degree Mask based combo decks will make up a large part of the meta any where where people actually own power and play competitively. And these decks are so synergetic that the only way in which other decks can have a chance with them is by packing their sideboards with the appropriate hate. Thus the only decks that are even remotely viable in a competitive environment are those that pack said hate. This isn't a problem regarding Dragon and Mask as essentially every color has easy to cast cards that significantly hurt both decks. But while Mishra's Workshop unduly shuts out a lot of strategies that just don't have the brokenness to race the locks, through no fault of their own, there really isn't any way to effectively hate it out without a blue or red splash.
Until wizards decides to print artifact hate cards for all the colors or decides to restrict the permenant version of black lotus, the only viable noncombo decks are those that splash a significant amount of either blue or red. While this may not seem apparent, anyone who has played against a good workshop deck can attest to incredible amounts of mana the deck can generate in the first few turns, the raw synegetic power of the cards to be able to totally shut you out by turn two, or the futility of trying to trade with the key cards one for one.
Trading for land one for one with cards such as Wasteland or Sinkhole rarely works as there are far too many mana accelerators to be dealt with effectively, and by the time the mana denial can actually hit play, Workshop variants often had already had the key turn one or two needed to lock you out. Trading one for one with threats or by utilizing discard is often just as futile as no deck could match it's hate with the number of threats found in the deck. Current artifact based artifact hosers such as Null Rod and Chalice of the Void deal with far too few threats, and almost always deal with them too late and very poorly at that. Graveyard hard proves just as difficult as the graveyard is typically only a very minor component of the combo. The original MUD builds did very well and never once bothered to utilize their graveyards.
Even after combining all these forms of hate to make up a third of the main deck and almost all of the sideboard, the incredible challenge that decks like Chalice Black face against workshop based decks proves unconditionally just how futile the above measures are. Currently, the only cards with which workshop variants can truly be crippled and hated out are cards that can deal with multiple key artifact threats at once. These consist of Energy Flux, Artifact Mutation, and Rack and Ruin. Hurkyll's Recall and Blood Moon are also effective provided you only need to stall them temporarily. These and only these cards deal with enough threats at once to have any chance to make up for the raw synergy and power found in Workshop variants. And considering that all five cards require a red or blue splash, it becomes quite apparent why so many decks and archetypes are made unplayable by the unresticted presence of Workshop variants. And it also becomes apparent why workshop decks consistently manage to take 4 or 5 slots on almost every top 8 list even while being such a new deck, even with long around and with workshops being so rare. Four copies of a permanent black lotus is afterall no small advantage.
So if the DCI remains firm on it's refusal to restrict Mishra's Workshop, Wizards should at the very least ensure that cheap and effective artifact hate is made accessible to all the colors in the next set whether in the form of individual cards or with more effective artifact based artifact hosers. Afterall, it's not just vintage that's being deformed by artifact decks, extended suffers from the same problem and I predict standard will soon as well.
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Crater Hellion
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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2003, 10:01:20 pm » |
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A lot of those decks are not worth testing against, especially my artifact prison In addition, bebe's list is just my (much older) list with some bad cards thrown in, but whatever go for it if you want to test against that.
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Chaos Blade
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« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2003, 10:32:02 pm » |
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Thats for putting my fish list. I think the Disrupts might be Dazes, it depends. Im working on a updated list to be released but right now my main deck is my underpowered Gay Red.
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centroles
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2003, 11:35:15 pm » |
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I'm desperately looking for more up to date teched out playtested versions of the decks I've posted. If any one has more recent builds, please post them and I'll edit them into the original post. I'm also looking for more recent budget versions of Rector Trix, Suicide Black, Blue/Black Dragon utilizing the Squee engine, Sligh designed for Chalice, Enchantress, Mask, WW, FEB, EBA, Rose, Stasis (if it's still even viable), Oath and any other newer versions of decks I've already posted.
And please remember to keep this thread bumped till someone decides to make it a sticky.
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Chaos Blade
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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2003, 11:38:46 pm » |
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Well a short modification is to remove the Disrupts for Dazes. The SB doesnt really matter.
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thefram
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2003, 11:45:17 pm » |
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I like this compilation, however, some of the lists seem kinda outdated.
Regardless, unless a budget deck is really prevalent in a given area its not too usefull to playtest against them. It is however useful to playtests with them against the powered gauntlet.
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wuaffiliate
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2003, 12:00:25 am » |
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its great you put the time into this, its good for some to read. the Gw stompy build is european not really tony's deck  .
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Sytupal
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2003, 12:18:57 am » |
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Some of the decks seem a bit outdated. One that I have noticed (suprise suprise) is the monoblack. Hyppies are outdated and slow. i take offense to the tier 4 listing with monoblack in it... it hurts.. right here............ ...
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centroles
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2003, 12:24:55 am » |
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As I posted in the original post, I welcome revisions and making modifications as requested. I already implimented all the requests for modifications that have been posted so far. I would certainly appreciate an up to date post Mirrodian listing for Sui Black or any other deck for that matter. Such a deck would easily classify as Tier Two atleast. As I already pointed out, all the decks taken from Bebe's thread are out dated and in need of new tech before they can be deemed viable and thus belong in a higher tier.
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Bastian
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2003, 12:48:28 am » |
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I remember the european g/w stompy quite well and if I'm not mistaken it used 3 Hidden Guerillas and not Gibbons.
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centroles
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2003, 12:52:27 am » |
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Thank you for all the corrections, I've implimented them.
Also, as already posted, I'm desperately looking for more up to date teched out playtested versions of the decks I've posted. If any one has more recent builds, please post them and I'll edit them into the original post. I'm also looking for more recent budget versions of Rector Trix, Suicide Black, Blue/Black Dragon utilizing the Squee engine, Sligh designed for Chalice, Enchantress, Mask, WW, FEB, EBA, Stasis, Rose, Oath and any other newer versions of decks I've already posted.
Almost all of the decks included above have several cards such as Chrome Mox that they could utilize. I would also welcome any criticisms of how I ranked the decked in terms of viability.
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wuaffiliate
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2003, 07:08:13 am » |
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Quote (Bastian @ Nov. 22 2003,00:48)I remember the european g/w stompy quite well and if I'm not mistaken it used 3 Hidden Guerillas and not Gibbons. im pretty sure a 1 card difference does not make it a different deck, look at the SB its nearly the same.
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Crater Hellion
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2003, 08:37:17 am » |
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Anyway, why would a budget player's gauntlet be any different? Just because they are on a budget does not mean everyone they play against will be.. I don't understand the point of this.
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bebe
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2003, 10:09:21 am » |
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Other than Dragon all my lists are pre-mirrodin and need some overhauling. The monoblue is a prime example of a deck that could benefit with a few Isos and Chalices. Really this is a compilation of budget decks from a number of outdated threads although some can compete to an extent. My belief is that Food Chain Goblins and Red Rock are probably the easiest decks to put together that have a decent chance. If I wwere more adventurous i would look to budget Gro and EBA in this environment.
Crater - Please lets not get into whose deck it is again. The version posted has been play tested and tournament proven a number of times and was designed with Dicemanx's help - although he also questioned some choices. Your builds are geared a little differently from mine but really both have their place depending on your meta. The problem is that Bazaars keep going up so it is difficult now to build either of our decks on a real budget. I would hesitate to go out and buy Bazaars now until the December B+R list comes out.
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centroles
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2003, 10:18:27 am » |
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as i already said, this thread gives a pretty good idea of what you might face in an environment where power isn't very common. that's waht a lot of environments are like.
the lists include unpowered versions of pretty much all of the powered tier one decks as well. So even if you face off a few powered players, you'll still have a pretty good idea of what their deck is designed to do and how you can beat it.
but even more importantly, this thread more than anything is here to give people without power a sense of hope that there are still some decks out there open to them that might still be viable. I noticed that in the past month or two since the environment really sped up, very few players without power are even trying to compete in tourneys with many powered decks. this gives them some ideas to try out and try to keep up instead.
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centroles
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2003, 10:39:30 am » |
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Every deck classified as either Tier One or Tier Two uses the latest Mirrodian tech. And of the remaining decks, I specifically mentioned which cards warrant consideration post Mirrodian.
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sWoRdFiSh`
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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2003, 11:32:34 am » |
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my bad.. my bad... i'm so sorry for not including sol ring in my budget long.dec list. obviously it's just a typo (and some coffee overload), but thanks for pointing it out anyway. for the record, it was supposed to be:
-1 scrubland +1 sol ring
anyway, the second BIG vintage tournament of my country is set tomorrow. i expect both hardcore keeper players rakso and glenchuy to be there. also, since i'll be expecting a lot of sligh tomorrow, i'll be dropping one spoils of the vault (please be very wary that this is an extreme metagame call). my extensive playtesting have also shown that contrary to my expectation of getting *just* the right amount of lands in my opening hands, my tech of dropping chromatic spheres and replacing 'em with more duals actually mana flooded me. mana flooded in the "long.dec extreme brokeness" sense. rebuild was still great, but most of the times it was just slow. but hey, if i expect brutal keeper players to be there, it *must* stay in. without further ado, i give to you my latest, completely up to date (also a tad metagamed - cutting 1 spoils) budget long.dec list:
Mana (28) 2 Underground Sea 1 Badlands 1 Tolarian Academy 4 City of Brass 4 Gemstone Mine 1 Lotus Petal 1 Sol Ring 1 Mox Diamond 1 Mana Vault 1 Mana Crypt 1 Grim monolith 4 Lion's Eye Diamond 2 Chromatic Sphere 4 Dark Ritual
Disruption / Kill (10) 4 Duress 4 Cabal Therapy 1 Tendrils of Agony 1 Rebuild
Draw 7's / Broken Stuff (6) 1 Memory Jar 1 Wheel of Fortune 1 Windfall 1 Mind's Desire 1 Necropotence 1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
Card drawers / Tutors (16) 3 Brainstorm 4 Burning Wish 4 Academy Rector 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Demonic Consultation 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Spoils of the Vault 1 Mystical Tutor
SB (15) 1 Diminishing Returns 1 Rebuild 1 Hull Breach 1 Primitive Justice 1 Form of the Dragon 1 Balance 2 Seal Of Cleansing 4 Xantid Swarm 1 Diabolic Intent 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Tendrils of Agony
Some points i want to clarify:
fastbond does not belong in the deck. - this deck tries to makes use of as little "real" lands as possible. other than the fact that you'll seldom see that much of lands in your hand, you'll take too muh pain bargaining and fastboning at the same time - the only situation when you expect to get yourself mana flooded. in this deck, it's an iffy card.
don' ever make the mistake of dropping duress; run at least 3. - against control, especially neo-keeper, this is your only tool to ever get the chance of going off together with:
rebuild - as iv'e mentioned earlier, this is a metagame call. i've been in situations where multiple chalice's are on the other side of the table. chain of vapor makes a good and cheaper candidate in this slot too.
future sight is too costy for a budget version of long.dec - it may seem good on paper and may actually do well in real games, however, why bother with this card if you have both necropotence and bargain at your disposal? rector ALWAYS fetches bargain. first turn necros are nearly equally good. the problem is, the UUU in FS' casting cost and its high casting cost itself and it being subpar to both bargain and necro in both areas makes this an iffy card at best.
tinker is iffy, memory jar is OK - i've tried running both and believe me, tinker is not worth it. memory jar is an OK card but without tinker, it's too costy to make way for an early game explosiveness. it's still the next best draw 7 nevertheless so i highly suggest the use of it.
chrome mox is an OK card - in great contrast to its real mox counterparts, the card disadvantage inherent to the new mox is often not worth it. most of the times i mulligan so discarding one more spell to my new opening hand to feed this card is not productive. the only time i enjoy playing this card is when i'm already baragining to victory; that is, when i have too much cards in my hand. run no more that 2 copies if you wish, but also take note this *could* be better than mox diamond in a deck as land-light as this.
4 city of brass and 4 gemstone mines are necessary - what a lot of players often fail to realize is that at least 50% of the games you'll play in a particular tournament are gonna be played with SBs in. 4 xantid swarms and 2 seals of cleansing are what i'm particularly talking about. XS are off color and seals belong to the lightest color. if you want, make sure you run at least 3 chromatic spheres main and replace some duals with glimmervoids for greater flexibilty but at a cost.
winds of change spurr within me a feeling of having great potential but since i haven't playtested enough with it, i think i won't be using 'em tomorrow. if ever i'll be using 'em, perhaps i'll substitue 'em either for rebuild or memory jar slot(s). i'll post my tournament report here or in another thread some time in the future for greater analysis. btw, thanks centroles or this thread, i agree with the notion that most tournaments out there would be mostly composed of the above mentioned decks and power may only be seldom seen. furtheremore, this appeals to the budget players out there to go forth, step forward and show their builds and not be ashamed that they don't have power. some of these budget decks actually has great potential and often times they're just wasted because an intelligent discussion for it never took place. in the very least, there would be more type 1 players.
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centroles
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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2003, 01:38:36 pm » |
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Thanks for the update to the decklist and for the nice compliments.
I have a few questions though.
Isn't Tinker a cheaper way to get out another draw 7 (Memory Jar) more consistently? How could it not be worth it if Memory Jar is worth it. If you're going after draw 7s, you're about to go off that turn anyways right? So wouldn't tinker, memory jar, lions eye diamond, double sac be one of the most synergetic plays in the deck?
Also, are you sure it's wise to cut a brainstorm. In the budget version, hand smoothing seems more important than ever.
If one were to find themselves mana light and wished to add in a couple of Chrome Mox, where would they fit in most ideally?
what would you say is your fundamental turn typically? how often does it go off on turn one, turn two, turn three, turn four and how often does it just crap out and never goes off in a real game situation?
let me know how winds of change works out when you get to playtesting it and let me know how the tournament works out, I'm sure everyone is very curious to know.
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Necrologia
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« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2003, 03:20:23 pm » |
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Wow, someone actually noticed my deck list. *blushes*
That's actually a rather old and experimental build. I've since acquired a few pieces of power and haven't touched the deck in a while, but I'll be playing Magic all this evening. I'll make sure to break out long again and tell you what I come up with.
I really like this thread. Even if it's not so much a gauntlet for budget players, it's a great compilation of viable budget decks. Congrats, you must have done some serious forum scrounging to get that list together.
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BuboniC
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« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2003, 03:52:22 pm » |
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Most of these decks seem very, very suboptimal and ancient. 3 Lim-duals vault is horrible in long/rector. If vampiric tutor is "slow" than this is a butcher orgg of alliances. I would suggest putting only strong budget decks, but show them without powerfull cards(like MUD without workshop) and then show the decklist with it. Here would probably be the best budget decks:
Chalice Black MUD Stax Dragon(mono B for more budget) Fish Rectal Agony Madness(with bazaar)
Now: on instead of just copying and pasting decklists, perfect them too there maximum potential. I mean god that Dragon is pittiful, if you think by posting lists like these you are helping budget players, youre wrong. Although I will say that There were a few acceptable lists, that still need work. I will be making lists of all of these(that I think have potential) playtest them, write cardchoices, and get back too you in probably about a week or two ill be done. - no hard feelings
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Necrologia
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« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2003, 04:29:00 pm » |
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Quote Most of these decks seem very, very suboptimal and ancient. 3 Lim-duals vault is horrible in long/rector. If vampiric tutor is "slow" than this is a butcher orgg of alliances. That might be going a bit far. Stacking your deck is a powerful effect, especially for only 2 mana. At the time I was just trying to find some additional blue cards to play Force of Will, and Lim Dul's vault was one of the things I tried. I eventually retired it as it was sometimes difficult to generate the 2 color casting cost first turn, and would occasionally cost me enough life to interfere with spoils and Bargain. It's too bad, I really prefer Vault.dec to Long/Longer/Longest.dec Quote I would suggest putting only strong budget decks, but show them without powerfull cards(like MUD without workshop) and then show the decklist with it. That I disagree with. This is a budget thread, so showing yet another fully powered MUD list isn't going to get much accomplished. If a person really wants to see a powered deck list, they just need to look around in the Extreme Vintage forums. Then again, I suppose I'm seeing this thread as less of a playtesting guantlet, and more of a listing of playable decks. Quote Now: on instead of just copying and pasting decklists, perfect them too there maximum potential. In his introduction he says he's more than willing to change the lists. That's exactly why I'm going to be tinkering around with long this evening.
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centroles
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« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2003, 08:37:23 pm » |
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I'm well aware that not every deck on here is optimal. And I'm completely open to making changes to the lists posted above.
If you seee a decklist on here that you feel is suboptimal, please feel free to post exactly what card changes you suggest and please explain even if very briefly your reasons for doing so.
I am of the opinion that every single deck list posted here has the capacity to be extremely powerful once optimized. I am also of the opinion that there are SEVERAL other budget decks out there that people have ideas for or are tinkering with that definately need to be included up here.
But I'm only one person with only limited experience with most decks. So I'm in no position to optimize every list up there by myself or make an optimal decklist for every viable budget deck that I left off. So any help you can provide by posting new decklists on here for me to add on to the original post, or by posting specific modifications to the decks I've already posted would be most appreciated.
Thank you for all the compliments I've recieved thus far.
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Crater Hellion
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« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2003, 09:09:42 pm » |
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Do not bring the tier structure to TMD, as it is complete ass. Mana 4 Lion’s Eye Diamond 4 Tropical Island 4 Taiga 4 Forest 4 Wooded Foothills 2 Mountain 1 Windswept Heath 1 Lotus Petal
Critters 4 Wild Mongrel 4 Basking Rootwalla 4 Arrogant Wurm 4 Roar of the Wurm
Utility 3 Fiery Temper 3 Anger 2 Wonder 2 Manabond
Draw 4 Careful Study 4 Deep Analysis 1 Windfall 1 Wheel of Fortune
Sideboard 4 Pyrostatic Pillar/Tormod’s Crypt 4 Red Elemental Blast 3 Rack and Ruin 2 Rebuild 2 Xantid Swarm
I'm not going to mess with this- it seems OK.
Budget Rector Long
2 Underground Sea 1 Badlands 1 Tolarian Academy 4 City of Brass 4 Gemstone Mine 1 Lotus Petal 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Vault 1 Mana Crypt 1 Grim monolith 4 Lion's Eye Diamond 3 Chromatic Sphere 4 Dark Ritual 4 Duress 4 Cabal Therapy 1 Tendrils of Agony 1 Tinker 1 Memory Jar 1 Wheel of Fortune 1 Windfall 1 Mind's Desire 1 Necropotence 1 Yawgmoth's Bargain 4 Brainstorm 4 Burning Wish 4 Academy Rector 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Demonic Consultation 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Mystical Tutor Sideboard 1 Diminishing Returns 1 Rebuild 1 Hull Breach 1 Primitive Justice 1 Form of the Dragon 1 Balance 2 Seal Of Cleansing 4 Xantid Swarm 1 Diabolic Intent 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Tendrils of Agony
CRATER HELLION'S GOOD budget dragon
4 Worldgorger Dragon 2 Verdant Force 2 Squee, Goblin Nabob 1 Ambassador Laquatious 1 Sliver Queen 4 Dance of the Dead 3 Necromancy 2 Animate Dead 4 Bazaar of Baghdad 4 Duress 3 Unmask 4 Buried Alive 1 Entomb 2 Defense Grid (essentially metagame slots) 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 4 Dark Ritual 1 Polluted Delta 4 Bloodstained Mire 5 Swamp 2 Ancient Tomb 2 Chrome Mox (I've actually never used these, as I own a Jet. Probably worth testing at least) 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Vault 1 Mana Crypt 1 Lotus Petal Sideboard 3 Chalice of the Void 1 Defense Grid 1 Verdant Force 3 Reanimate 3 Tormod's Crypt 4 Metagame slots
my deck kicks ass. zorz.
Mana 8 Mountain 4 Great Furnace 1 Tolarian Academy 4 City of Traitors (might want to split with some ancient tombs, or add crucible of words which makes this card about 8 times better) 4 Metalworker 1 Strip Mine 4 Wasteland 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Vault 1 Mana Crypt 1 Lotus Petal 4 Tangle Wire 4 Sphere of Resistance 4 Chalice of the Void 3 Winter Orb 3 Grafted Skullcap 1 Wheel of Fortune 1 Memory Jar 2 Karn, Silver Golem 4 Goblin Welder My shot at a fair budget mud deck.
Vegeta's Deck Mana 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Vault 1 Lotus Petal 2 Mountain 3 Ancient Tomb 4 Karplusan Forest 4 Taiga 4 Wooded Foothills 4 Chrome Mox
Utility 4 Food Chain
Critters 1 Siege-Gang Commander 1 Goblin Sharpshooter 2 Goblin Matron 4 Goblin Ringleader 4 Goblin Warchief 4 Goblin Recruiter 4 Goblin Piledriver 4 Skirk Prospector 4 Goblin Vandal 4 Goblin Lackey
Sideboard 4 Chalice of the Void 4 Tormod's Crypt 4 Naturalize 3 Crash
he seems to know what he's doing, so I'll leave it like it is.
Critters 3 Grim Lavamancer 4 Cloud of Faeries 4 Spiketail Hatchling 3 Voidmage Prodigy 4 Mishra's Factory 2 Faerie Conclave
Disruption 4 Force of Will 2 Stifle 1 Misdirection 3 Null Rod 4 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 3 Chalice of the Void
Draw 4 Standstill 4 Curiosity
Mana 4 Flooded Strand 4 Volcanic Island 6 Island
Ian's Gobbo Combo
Critters 4 Goblin Cadets 4 Goblin Piledriver 4 Mogg Fanatic 4 Raging Goblin 3 Seige Gang Commander
Utility/Burn 2 Price of Progress 4 Lightning Bolts 4 Chain Lightning 4 Goblin Grenade 4 Reckless Charge
Mana 1 Lotus Petal 4 Barbarian Ring 4 Bloodstained Mire 6 Mountains 1 Volcaninc Island 4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard 4 Null Rod 4 Scald 4 Rack and Ruin 3 Blood Moon
I did my best to salvage the budget decks from this thread I thought were worth playing. I'm about to submit my first article to SCG, and it happens to be about budget in vintage. If it's accepeted, I promise there will be a bunch of good budget decks you can see there.
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centroles
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« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2003, 09:49:56 pm » |
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thanks for the modifications you suggested crater hellion. I incorporated the modified lists on the original post.
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bebe
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« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2003, 10:13:02 pm » |
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I will say this once again about budget Dragon for those who might be playing it ...
There is very good reason for every choice in the original list you posted. Its strange that you used a number of my decks that I have since overhauled and the one deck I'm happy with has been deleted. Not that i'm against your new choices. There are valid reasons for all the variants.
We have played the build in three real tournaments ( not online ones). The deck lost one match during all three tournaments - Phoenix beat it with Fish ( my deck was being played by someone who loaned it for the firsat time). Although a number of choices seem strange, the deck is actually quite synergistic. It was designed to side step the hate that is prevalent in our meta. Abominations might indeed seem starnge but they are used to smooth the mana primarily and as secondary bonus allow for a strong regenerating creature to be played as early as turn one or two. The two Squees are not random. But since the deck does not use blue two are the right number to use. Also note that the deck is really mono black game one. Green is a splash used only for the sideboard which allows Deeds and Swarms to brought in.
I applaud any effort to bring new budget builds to the forefront. I've done a fair bit of work on a number of builds. I'm not so shortsighted though to realize that different approaches exist for various arch types. I can only judge a deck's effectiveness by its performance at tournaments. This leads to different conclusions from other's at times as we all play in different metas. All the budget combo decks I build are predicated on winning very early or laying out a formidable threat early. Thus my Dragon is really a hybrid of Dragon/Reanimator.
I could probably respond in similar kind to the budget Fish posted. The Fish deck that made it to the finals here had a number of cards different from the posted build. For our meta these were very good decisions. Marc is the grandfather of modern Fish but I must add that the earliest builds were a collaboration of a number of BD regulars - Ray, Marc and myself being the primary boosters of the deck. I still play a fish deck that is different from Marc's. I really like Marc's deck though. I just feel a few changes are needed in my meta to optimize its success here.
Now the caveat ... Overall i think the deck lists are quite good and all our workable prototypes. As long as people are not thinking to simply net deck them without tweaking them to the meta, they all stand as pretty good examples.\n\n
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centroles
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« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2003, 02:16:32 am » |
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I agree with you bebe. Certainly there is no one optimal build for any deck. It varies from metagame to metagame. As long as the key components are in place, the mana base is consistent, and the kill cards are streamlined, the deck is quite good.
The purpose of this thread is by no means to help people netdeck budget decks. It's to help them appreciate the strategies open to them and help them adopt these strategies making adjustments specific for their metagame and play style. To give budget players hope that they can still have a fun time even in the current fundamental turn 2 metagame as long as not everyone has power.
By not including your list and by using one of the more variations, I'm by no means implying that your list is poor. It's probably the best version you can play for your specific metagame and playstyle.
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morphon
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« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2003, 07:01:28 am » |
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Well, nice list. I have been working on a mono-B dragon deck for some time, and here is the result. It is quite inexpensive, and because of the multiple win positions (not win conditions), it is very consistent. I don't own Bazaars, and I know a lot of people that are trying to enjoy some competition in Type1, but only wish to dabble in it prefering to stay Type2 or block. This build has the virtue of no single card costing more than $10. In fact, I think you could put it together from scratch for around $50 American.
Anyway, they say not to just post a decklist without giving some information on why its different and why we should care. Well, this list was made out of the desire to make a Dragon deck without the added cost of 4x Bazaar of Baghdad (not really a budget card anymore). It had to make up for the uncounterable 2 extra cards per turn (especially with the Squee engine) for 0 mana. I attempted to compensate for the lack of obscene drawing ability that the fully powered version has by increasing the number of ways the deck "goes off" - by making it more redundant. You have four ways to win:
1.Play Buried Alive to stock the graveyard, then just cast a reanimation enchantment. Can happen as early as turn 1.
2.Use the Tome to discard the Dragon, then cast a reanimation enchantment. Filter through your entire library until you dump the Ambassador, then just win. This usually turns out to be the most common way to win.
3.With a Dragon in your graveyard and Undead Gladiator either in your hand or in your graveyard, cast Necromancy during your upkeep. Use the cycling and return of the Gladiator to filter through your deck to find the Ambassador. Note that this cannot use Plan B, at least not directly, since you would have to break the infinite loop by changing the target of Necromancy to the Gladiator. When this happens, you cannot go off that turn unless you have a Triskelion in the board and Death Wish it out, somehow manage to put it into the graveyard or hard-cast it, then put three damage on the stack per usage. Is this possible? Yes, but not really recommended due to the intricate nature of such a setup. Fairly complex stacking would have to be employed for this to work. If you want to do this, practice it a bit first.
4. This has rarely happened in a game: If you have the Dragon in the graveyard, as well as a reanimation spell in hand, Death Wish can be used to grab the single copy of Scrying Glass in the SB. You can then go off and draw up your entire library, once you have enough mana, cycle away a Gladiator, then change targets on the enchantment, thus ending the loop. Then cast either Jalum Tome or Unmask yourself (don't worry, the card disadvantage doesn't matter when you are holding 40-odd cards) to get the Ambassador in the graveyard. Reanimate the Dragon, let both enchantments get legal targets until one of them counters on resolution due to no more creatures in the graveyard, cycle the other Gladiator to stop the last remaining loop, finally dump the mana into Laquatus and pass the turn. This situation has come up at least twice in playtesting. Just make sure there is only one Dragon in the graveyard, or otherwise you may find it difficult to pass the turn (or remove all of your permanents permanently), depending on how you stack it. Again, this one takes a bit of practice.
This redundancy makes it much easier to use the limited selection of tutors - and makes up for the fact that Jalum Tome is orders of magnitude slower than the Bazaar.
But does the loss of the Bazaar make it too slow? I played about twenty games against sligh tonight, and only lost one game (counting games where I mulliganed to 5). You might laugh about a combo deck posting good numbers against sligh, but many budget combo decks are not fast enough to do the job anymore (i.e. High Tides often can't win until turn 4-6), but a true budget deck that can win turn 2 quite a few times and even posted a single turn 1 win (lucky draw, but the capability is there) is nothing to be sneezed at. Plus, its disruption engine does a fantastic job, though not as nice as FoW that the B/U builds have. Anyway, I am curious as to everyone's reaction to this....
Infinite Engine 4x Worldgorger Dragon (infinite mana) 4x Jalum Tome (Infinite card-selection during main-phase) 3x Undead Gladiator (Infinite card-selection during upkeep) 1x Ambassador Laquatus (kill card)
Final Bits 4x Necromancy (instant-speed reanimation) 4x Animate Dead (sorcery-speed reanimation)
Tutors 4x Buried Alive (first part of the two-card combo) 1x Entomb (broken graveyard tutor) 1x Demonic Tutor (wow, this just makes you feel powerful) 1x Demonic Consultation (careful with this one) 1x Death Wish (plan B, 9th reanimation enchantment, more disruption, 8th card-selector) 1x Spoils of the Vault
Disruption Core 4x Duress (the black counterspell) 4x Unmask (the black Force of Will)
Mana Acceleration 4x Dark Ritual 1x Mana Vault 1x Mana Crypt 1x Lotus Petal 1x Sol Ring
Land 15x Swamp
SB: 1x Blackmail 1x Scrying Glass 1x Consume Spirit 2x Dance of the Dead 3x Defense Grid 3x Alternate Reanimation Targets (your choice, but I would recommend Verdant's, or if you can't afford them, the Mirrodin rare Living Hive - and I always have a Triskelion in the board) 4x Metagame hate card (your choice)
Comments?
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Crater Hellion
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« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2003, 08:55:42 am » |
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it's a decent concept, and I almost included my Bazaar-free list in my budget article, but it's really not as good as other decks you can play :/ But if you really want a taste of Dragon, then by all means play it- it's certainly enjoyable.
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centroles
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« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2003, 09:43:59 am » |
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thanks for posting the list morphan. i want to playtest around with it for a little bit but will probably end up including it in my original post if it proves as consistent as you claim.
another thing, on the original post, i posted a link to a thread that's dedicated to finding an optimal version of bazaar free budget dragon right below where i posted the decklist for bazaar dragon.
the reason i simply didn't post a decklist from that thread instead was because there are so many different approaches to make up for the lack of bazaars. some players play more ways to get out the combo, some splash blue for brainstorm, intuition and other draw spells/tutors, some play a hybrid dragon/reanimator thread, some opt for ever more disruption. And frankly, due to inexperience with bazaar free dragon, i have no idea which one yields the most success in today's meta. until one of these lists is accepted by multiple bazaar free dragon players as an optimized build, i hesistate to post a list of all the possible variations on the concept.
so what i'm saying is, i think it would serve the community well if you posted your decklist in the thread i linked to and offered your unique expertise on the matter to help determine the optimal build.
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sWoRdFiSh`
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« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2003, 11:30:52 am » |
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Quote (centroles @ Nov. 22 2003,10:38)Thanks for the update to the decklist and for the nice compliments.
I have a few questions though.
Isn't Tinker a cheaper way to get out another draw 7 (Memory Jar) more consistently? How could it not be worth it if Memory Jar is worth it. If you're going after draw 7s, you're about to go off that turn anyways right? So wouldn't tinker, memory jar, lions eye diamond, double sac be one of the most synergetic plays in the deck?
Also, are you sure it's wise to cut a brainstorm. In the budget version, hand smoothing seems more important than ever.
If one were to find themselves mana light and wished to add in a couple of Chrome Mox, where would they fit in most ideally?
what would you say is your fundamental turn typically? how often does it go off on turn one, turn two, turn three, turn four and how often does it just crap out and never goes off in a real game situation?
let me know how winds of change works out when you get to playtesting it and let me know how the tournament works out, I'm sure everyone is very curious to know. uhhh... the tinker thingy is a bit hard to explain... you see tinker could be a dead card, jar never would. you can always cast jar and draw seven away while tinker has the tendedncy to sit useless in your hand. it's something i learned and felt more in the battlefield. ideally, you don't need draw-7s to storm a tendrils of agony for 20 points of life. all you need is a tutor, lion's eye diamond, burning wish and some accelerant (what half this deck is made of). any real real long.dec player (ahem ) would tell you that the draw-7 way is actually the hardest and most risky path to victory especially when up against control. we don't want 'em to have new and improved hands after a massive duress-therapy play, do we? cutting the 4th brainstorm was a tough choice; however, without fetch lands and if not under a heavy discard meta, it's plausible to cut 1 to make room for more broken stuff. hmmmm... chrome mox... i really don't know...personally i don't favor running it. run at most 2 if you please, in place of chromatic spheres and/or mox diamond perhaps. i really believe they're better than mox diamond in this deck, but i can't justify that in a full-experience basis yet. the fundamental turn is still your second turn. i go off first (God hand) or second turn (average hand) all the time if i'm playing against a counterless and disruptless deck. when i'm up against control, this fundamental turn gets offset by a turn more or two, depending on how "controlish" the nature of your opponent's deck is. by the way, i just finished 3rd (going up against and losing to Glenson Lim a.k.a. glenchuy in the semis) on the recently concluded 2nd DCI Sanctioned BIG vintage tourney of our country. i think he'll be posting a tournament report somewhere but i'll be posting mine too. damn those rebuilds... where were they when i needed them? Rakso didn't do well, btw. He got sooo many game-draws which in the end caused him the entire tournamnet. anyway, here was the final version of the deck i ran and finished 3rd in a final record of 6-2 in rounds and 11-5 in games. Cyclops' Burning Rectal Agony a tribute to my good 'ol friend, CyclopsMana (28) 2 Underground Sea 1 Badlands 1 Tolarian Academy 4 Gemstone Mine 4 City of Brass 1 Mox Diamond 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mana Vault 1 Sol Ring 1 Grim Monolith 4 Lion's Eye Diamond 2 chromatic sphere 4 Dark Ritual Draw-7s / Broken Stuff (6) 1 Mind's Desire 1 Wheel of Fortune 1 Windfall 1 Memory Jar 1 Necropotence 1 Yawgmoth's Bargain Card Drawers / Tutors / Wishes (17) 3 Brainstorm 4 Burning Wish 4 Academy Rector 1 Tinker - yep, in the last moments, i stacked it in. 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Demonic Consultation 1 Spoils of the Vault - i'm starting to loose faith with this one 1 Mystical Tutor Disruption / Kill (9) 4 Duress 4 Cabal Therapy 1 Tendrils of Agony SB(15) 4 Xantid Swarm 1 Hull Breach 2 Seal of Cleansing 1 Balance 1 Form of the Dragon 1 Primitve Justice 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Diabolic Intent 1 Tendrils of Agony 1 Diminishing Returns 1 Rebuild i'll not go into further detail here because this thread is getting a little clunky so i guess i'll just post a full report and post a link here if that's alright with you centroles. a draft of the metagame could be: very few keeper and average amount of other blue-based control/combo, some BGx heavy-disruption decks, A LOT OF weenies, particularly sligh, stompy and WW, some suicide decks, mono-black chalice decks and some hardcore combo (including me!). some shocking revelations could be, and what i'd like to address right away are: I thought you said tinker was a waste of slot! You...yep, i did and tho i got a little happy with tinker today, i still don't recommend it 100 %. well, with chrome mox, perhaps it would shine more. problem is, this deck is a lot more artifact-light than its powered counterpart. Where the hell were your maindeck CotV hate?!i counted the neo-keeper players before the games started and counted only 2 - Glenchuy and Rakso . i dropped them hoping it would open a room for some more broken stuff and hence get the advantage in that sligh meta. i was wrong - a lot of mono-black chalice decks were around. tinker was effecient in lets see... err... 2 games nevertheless. yep, you heard me; 2 freaking games only. well, that's it for now. i guess i still happen to inspire a few budget players out there who want to experience the brokeness that is long.dec. i'll give extra consideration into playtesting winds of change (over spoils of the vault's slot maybe) even tho i'm still trying to master my extended deck set for next week's tourney which happens to be the formal kick-off the extended season in the country.
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