Considering that...A.) Magic is expanding faster than eve...

[jazzy kat]

Quote (Loci @ Nov. 21 2003,05:12)Six of the power nine are fast mana cards. Certain things might become a lot easier if it was decided to allow just three or four fast mana cards in a deck.
I mean having all the moxen would still be an advantage but not a neccesity. Prices would be the same, the gap between powered and non powered would be much smaller, 5 proxy could still be five proxy, no reprints needed and it would do something about the speed in the game as well.

Now that is an interesting idea. Although, I think it would partially inhibit the full effect of 4 and 5 color decks, which is part of what I love being able to play in T1. The more I hear about reprinting the less I like it, but wouldn't it be cool if we made it so owning the full set(I know it isn't already) was not nescessary to make a specific deck, and all this off color moxen playing would almost cease, then just maybe the format may slow down a turn as well (something I am definitely for).

[Gradek]

As a long time player who recently sold his power/type 1 at extremely inflated prices to Europeans (gotta love the Euro/Dollar exchange rate) I just had to chime in on a few issues.  First, WOTC can reprint without fear of a lawsuit and all they would have to do is make an announcement removing the reserved list a few months before announcing any reprints to completely protect themselves.  They are not just going to reprint cards and say "surprise"! I wanted to make this clear because I cannot stand the "I will sue" arguments.  Also, filing lawsuits costs money and requires you to hire a lawyer, which will cost you much more than your power is worth.  Second, while I would favor a gold-bordered tournament legal reprint set that included may high price cards (power, but also 4xdrains, masks, shops, etc.) so that all players have access to equal equipment to play the game if you will, it will not happen as long as the game (type2 and limited) remain popular.  Finally, the only way reprints would be practical would be in a huge all inclusive set or else one would have the same pricing problems that spur these debates with other cards (think of duals or force of willor wastelands) and create a never ending cycle that would lead to everyone playing with gold-bordered proxy reprints.

[Azhrei]

I think they should reprint the GenCon t8 decks in a fully t1 legal collector's set so I can get back in to playing for 10 bucks.

[Traveler]

Clearly most people who post here have no idea how civil courts work, and this forum isn't introduction to law 101.  The 'I will sue you' arguement is very real, and is THE reason playable reserved cards will never be reprinted.  You can come up with whatever great ideas you want, and there have been some good ones in this forum, but realize it will never happen.

[Gradek]

@traveler:

Of course one can sue, people sue all the time.  The real questions are what can you so for and can you win.  I guarantee you will not prevent these cards from being reprinted if WOTC chose to.  Also, I imagine you would have to prove that you lost money (and not paper profits as we have learned from all the stock market bubble lawsuits) due to the reprints.  If someone bought a mox in 1999 for $100 and reprints caused the current value to be $125, what would you sue for, the lost increase?  You would not win.  

I agree with you that WOTC will not make reprints, not because they fear lawsuits, but because it would ruin their credibility with the people who purchase their product.

I also guarantee that power prices will fall again, it is all a matter of time.  Who are you gonna sue then.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Quote (Traveler @ Nov. 21 2003,07:09)Clearly most people who post here have no idea how civil courts work, and this forum isn't introduction to law 101.  The 'I will sue you' arguement is very real, and is THE reason playable reserved cards will never be reprinted.  You can come up with whatever great ideas you want, and there have been some good ones in this forum, but realize it will never happen.

Yeah, but you can sue for anything, so it doesn't matter because no matter what WOTC did, people would try to sue.  I sincerely doubt anything would happen, though.  It's their policy; they can edit it or rescind it as they see fit.

"Never happen," eh?  So you're guaranteeing that 25 years from now there will be no reprint power in existance?  Funny, because a year ago I would have guaranteed that Wizards would never reprint Underworld Dreams.  Or change the card face.  Or print something like Platinum Angel.  Or Phage.  Or do another artifact set.   Isn't it funny how expectations change?


As to power prices falling, I'd have to see it to believe it.  They've been rising for the last few years, and I don't see them dropping until they top out at a lot more than they're at now.

[centroles]

there are two very different aspects to magic.

its a collectable, there are many people out there who collect magic cards and have been doing so for sometime even though they rarely if ever play the game.

and it's a game, here are many people out there who go out scrounge together however much they can and only buy the cards they need for there decks. They rarely buy boxes or  even packs since they have no interest in collecting magic cards. They simply want to get the cards and only the cards that they need to play the game and do it well. These people don't rarely have power cards.

The amount of power out there is sooo low and it's value is so high that right now it's primarily in the hands of collectors and yet still very few collectors even have any power cards. There are far more people trying to complete their set of all the alpha cards than there are alpha cards out there.

This is exactly why reprints, especially if they look significantly different from the originals will not devalue the originals.

Because though magic is made up of both players and collectors, there are far FAR more collectors out there than there are power cards.

[centroles]

and it's not really about how dedicated you are to the game. no matter how dedicated a player you are,you may simply not have enough to be able to take care of your basic needs and responsibilites to drop a few hundred on a piece of cardboard.

and no matter how badly you want power, there are probably atleast a hundred times as many dedicated, talented magic players who want to get their hands on power as there are power cards themselves. it's a numbers issue, there simply aren't enough cards to go around.

if you really think you wouldn't feel the same playing with a cheap reprint as you would working and saving to get your hands on the originals, if it would take too much away from the experience for you, then who the hell is forcing you to go out and get the reprints anyways? you are still welcome to engage in your quest to get the originals. they won't be any easier to come by.

if you are a collector, you have nothing to worry about. there are so many collectors out there looking for the original power cards and so few power cards to go around that they'll still be just as expensive.

and if you're a gamer, you should welcome finally being able to play on a level playing field. you should welcome being able to play against other people with power cards too. you should welcome knowing that whether you win or lose is based on your skill and experience rather than how much money you had to spend on the game. and you should certainly welcome the balloning of interest in competitive vintage, the swarm that will happen of people who only played vintage casually playing it compettively as well. and you should welcome the ever rising skill level that will undoubtedly come from playing in an environment where decks are more competitive and every decision counts that much more.

and if you are wizards, you should welcome the oppurtunity to make a $hit load of money from selling these vintage legal only reprints, perhaps one set per box. you should welcome the number of people who only played magic casually and rarely bought sets being lured back into the competitive seen, paying money to participate in tournaments, and buy new sets like mirrodian go get their hands on the latest game breaking spells. and more importantly, you should acknowledge that vintage players are among the most loyal players you can hope for. they are the ones that have been and will continue to play for years and years where as most type 2 players quit after 2 years. they are the ones that constantly tell people about the game and recruit new players into the game. you shouldn't allow such a loyal, dedicated and beneficial community wither and implode on itself from the balloning value and decreasing availability (as more and more collectors begin to hoard power cards) of the cards that are absolutely neccisatated now more than ever to be able to compete and play on a level playing field.

[iccarus]

Quote (centroles @ Nov. 21 2003,09:12)you should acknowledge that vintage players are among the most loyal players you can hope for. they are the ones that have been and will continue to play for years and years where as most type 2 players quit after 2 years. they are the ones that constantly tell people about the game and recruit new players into the game. you shouldn't allow such a loyal, dedicated and beneficial community wither and implode on itself from the balloning value and decreasing availability (as more and more collectors begin to hoard power cards) of the cards that are absolutely neccisatated now more than ever to be able to compete and play on a level playing field.

There is a reason why vintage players are so dedicated...many of us have too much money invested in the game not to continue playing.  We have taken the time to invest the money because we enjoy the game and like to play in a format that attracts more mature players and is more fun than just throwing a bunch of "4x good card" sets together, as is usually the case in standard.

You make power readily available, and those same vintage players will probably stop coming to tournaments because the Saturday morning T1 tourney will be overpopulated with little Timmy and his long.dec that he doesn't know how to play.  I play T1 because after round one I usually don't have to worry about random scrub decks.  I like the challenge and I like the strategy.  You sit me down across from a 12-year-old every round and I'll go crazy.  Just having the cards available doesn't mean the format will grow and be healthy.  It just means there will be a greater number of crap players joining in because vintage is broken or whatever.

[jazzy kat]

@iccarus: I can't believe you have that attitude about new people in magic. We were all timmy's once. Didn't you ever dance for joy after you cast your craw wurm and got to attack with it? Everyone has to learn to play magic sometimes, and that includes the little timmy's. Besides you should be happy about timmy's, you can trade them prenumbra wurms and big kavus for pernicous deed and you are both happier.

[BuboniC]

It's been said several times people!
"If WotC made proxys- many T2 players would switch too T1. This is bad buisness. Wizards doesnt make money from stroes selling moxen, they make money from stores  selling boxes. T1 players buy about 3/10 of the boxes sold, and T1 never changes beside the new set, it doesnt cycle out, T2 does- so they have too get all the new cards, all the new packs, T-Shirts lunchboxes  whatever mechandise. This is how wizards makes money- and thats why they edge you into T2- by setting up all the tournaments T2. T2 players cant afford the moxen- thats why they play it, and if they suddenly could then vintage would be overpopular and WotC would go down the drain.

[jpmeyer]

If Type 1 ever became more popular than Limited and Standard, It would soon die.  What would happen is that Type 1 would eventually become a completely explored format.  At this point, it would become extremely difficult for any new cards to enter the Type 1 cardpool.  The format would then stagnate and die because it would be almost impossible to have any change.  And then everyone would go back to playing Limited and Standard.

[Smmenen]

I don't think that's true.  In the first place, its very hard to completely explore type one.  Until Super Computers come in and find all the broken card interactions we have missed, its very hard to exlpore type one.  I think Extended is under-explored as well - just think about the teams that were exploring 1.x.  How many of them found Twiddle Desire?  How many of them saw Osterberg's deck?  Humans are notoriously bad at being comprehensive.  Watching Kasporav v. the Super Computers on ESPN it was interesting to see how bad we are at games.  

The other problem is the question about whether there can be an objectively best deck in type one.  I'm not sure there can - and if there is - if there is a deck you play no matter what the metagame is, then it is probably too good and needs restricting becuase it will dominate.  Otherwise, metagames are really important and thus metagames will always shift and magic will not stagnate but change even more.  Finally, new sets will always change the game. Not just the objective power of the new cards themselves, but how they interact with the increasingly large amounts of cards that have already been printed.

Steve

[BuboniC]

Steve has a point- with so many cards/decks/combo's I too dont think its possible too have a dominent deck. But there is a problem: If I had said this when GAT/Gro was still alive i would be shot. Maybe its possible, but theres all was a bigger fish- or maybe not bigger- but exactly what the deck would lose too. There are simply too many percentages of decks that win vs. other decks, and there are decks that beat decks, cards that beat decks(  Energy Flux)

-Mat

[iccarus]

Quote (jazzy kat @ Nov. 21 2003,12:10)@iccarus: I can't believe you have that attitude about new people in magic. We were all timmy's once. Didn't you ever dance for joy after you cast your craw wurm and got to attack with it? Everyone has to learn to play magic sometimes, and that includes the little timmy's. Besides you should be happy about timmy's, you can trade them prenumbra wurms and big kavus for pernicous deed and you are both happier.

yeah, I figured I would come across as arrogant there.  That's not totally want I meant.  The point I was trying to make is that T1 is not something you try to jump into.  Most players ease into the vintage formats after being introduced to the T2 environment and expanding what they know about the card pool.  Playing T1 requires a period of learning that is helped by people taking the time to understand the many cards and their interactions.  That's why the average vintage player has more than 2 years experience with the game before diving into T1.

Giving people the tools to play powered T1 without teaching them what they need to know first would be like turning a monkey lose with a hammer and nails and expecting him to build a house without any instruction.  They might try to do it, but chances are you're going to get a pile of wood and poop that don't resemble what you were looking for.

[jazzy kat]

@ iccarus: That is a much better explanation. No hard feelings.

Personally, I am one of the worst about having patience teaching people but I still try and help people build good decks, and pass on technology. I would never be able to sit and teach someone magic for too long though.

[Dr. Sylvan]

@jpmeyer: I don't think that there's even a remote concern about significant reductions in the Standard/Limited player base--Vintage will never exceed them. Extended is only marginally less accessible than Standard, but no one is concerned that FNMs will suddenly shift to it. It doesn't even matter why; the point is that there's already a format three times as large as Standard cardpool-wise, in many ways as broken or more than Vintage, and it's ignored at a local level--not even close to threatening to the bl$ng formats. Even with reprints, Vintage is still less accessible than Extended, which is less accessible than Standard. T2 players will still have their FNMs, States and whatnot, and they'll all still feed WotC cash for packs. No risk of losing profit.

As for breaking the format, whether this is done sooner or later, I've already said my bit about how they can deal with the Type 1 capacity for absolutely broken critical mass problems. More players or fewer, the format wouldn't just die; they would adapt it with bannings or some other solution that's been discussed to death elsewhere. This shouldn't be a concern of reprints.

@Smmenen: WotC reacts to the word "proxies" a lot like the American public reacts to the word "abortion" or perhaps "vouchers". They will never change their opinion on "proxies", but "reprints" aren't nearly so volatile. However, I do like the idea of Vintage World Championship decks, kinda like the ones for the Premiere-level Worlds. Another argument for this kind of reprint strategy is that it makes the choice of what to reprint less arbitrary--no one would have to decide what the essential cards were, because obviously if it's essential to winning, it would appear in one of those decks. This also introduces a 'metagame lag' into the card supply, so that current cardholders can profit from rising demand in between the event and the decks' printing. (Limiting the number of gold-bordered cards per deck could also be a viable strategy for lessening secondary market impact, but I don't think Wizards likes solutions of that kind.)

Quote The point I was trying to make is that T1 is not something you try to jump into.  Most players ease into the vintage formats after being introduced to the T2 environment and expanding what they know about the card pool.  Playing T1 requires a period of learning that is helped by people taking the time to understand the many cards and their interactions.  That's why the average vintage player has more than 2 years experience with the game before diving into T1.

Giving people the tools to play powered T1 without teaching them what they need to know first would be like turning a monkey lose with a hammer and nails and expecting him to build a house without any instruction.  They might try to do it, but chances are you're going to get a pile of wood and poop that don't resemble what you were looking for.

As I said above: even with reprints, Vintage $ > Extended $ > Standard $ > Block $ > Casual $. People still progress through stages of collection maturity. I can't imagine anyone who's been playing for less than a couple of years delving into any duals-legal format competitively unless they were under strong peer influence from other experienced players, which would compensate for any weaknesses of not being a player for the same length of time. In addition to this there is the counterpoint that by throwing scrubs into a more competitive cardpool, they are forced to hone their skills against stronger decks, making it easier for them to advance. No one can become skilled in hardcore competitive Vintage if the local card supply dictates that the metagame is randomMonocolored.dec.

[centroles]

there's a lot of really nice discussion here. lets keep it up.

and honestly, i think that sanctioned proxies is a lot less likely than just reprinting a set of vintage legal only cards just including those cards deemed as almost a neccesity to competitive vintage play but of which there simply aren't enough copies of to go around.

[BuboniC]

I think this is too soon. People still buy power right? Well once power is onely available too the rich people of MTG, then it will be a problem for us, but not for WotC. It doesnt care at all about T1 im telling you, it doesnt make money of selling a pioece of power, the shop owner does. sure maybe they made a couple of bucks way back in the day, but if one cells it doesnt matter too them. Stores get T2 cards by opening up like5-10 boxes. And wizards sells those boxes too the owners. I think proxies is so far the best solution,  but wizards wont let that happen, cause wizards wants the solution too be play T2. Also: if ll the cardshops around went on "strike" and didnt play any sanctioned tourneys besides proxy and stuf, and didnt sell stuff from wizards(ruff i know) maybe they would have too let us. who knows- but i think this is very apprehensive. Also: If you play long enough then eventually you will somehow cross by a good deal, and get power somewhere. its all about patience. overall though- I think it should be much more "tech" and playskill over $$$, so T1 should be equalized, how- I dunno, but wizards arent gonna do it- players need too stand up eventually.

[mtgmooner]

I honestly dont think it is neccessary to find a way to "level" the Type One playing field.  There is still more than a fair chance for a budget deck to win, but the core issue in the current Type One metagame is play skill.  The request for all of these tournaments to start allowing sanctioned proxies and such is so that players who just get outplayed in this very intricate environment THINK they are getting the playing ground evened.  Its a can of worms that does not need to be opened up.  


I wont dissagree that power helps a deck is ways that budget cards cannot, but power alone does not sure up a victory for the player that owns them.  But, with a firm understanding of the environment, a thorough desire and follo-wthrough in playtesting against POWERED decks, a budget player who is sound in skill, can do just as well for him/herself.

There isnt anything wrong the way Vintage is set-up...people need to concentrate on deck-building skills (especially SB constrcution for their meta-game), as well as looking at WHAT hands will win against what decks.  Knowledge is far more important than drawing a proxy onto a card because you think it evens the field...

[BrokenDeck]

@mtgmooner: if power is not needed to win, how come the price for a mox goes up every day? You yourself admit that a powered deck has an advantage.  It is true that budget players can win with skill alone, but a budget deck against a powered deck means the budget player needs to be much more skillful than the powered player.  It's like saying an elf deck can beat tinker: while that may be true, the player with the tinker deck needs to have a lot less skill to win.

[Sytupal]

How is that a bad thing?  Yes, having skill is one of the biggest things in magic.  Playing a budget deck and winning because you know you outplayed the opponent is so much more rewarding than winning because your deck almost plays itself.  I don't understand why people keep asking for power reprints.  I don't like the thought.  I'm into Magic for the long haul.  Type 1 or 2 - this is not economically good for Wizards or Magic.  I'm against this entire concept. (reprints)  There's no way reprints can be made without severe changes to the magic community.

[Puschkin]

Quote I think it should be much more "tech" and playskill over $$$

Hm, usually you do require tech and playskill first and then decide to spend money on power. That way most powered players do have both playskill and tech.

If you reprinted all of the expensive cards, the format would be flooded with scrubs who think they can beat everybody if they put every restricted card into one deck. And they have a considerably smaller chance to find out what they are doing wrong because they enter the game with zero knowledge but the biggest and most powerful card pool there is.
Compare it to the average game you play via apprentice with a "random scrub" you picked from a chatroom or something. You can call you lucky if he even knows which cards are restricted.

[Dr. Sylvan]

@Puschkin: There's a difference between Apprentice, where anyone can have anything after downloading a couple of megabytes, and cards that still cost something. Most random kids and totally new players aren't going to acquire $20-30 cards all that easily, and certainly not a whole deck full of them. Think how many random $10-15 cards are in winning decklists (duals, fetches, FoWs, Cunning Wish, Decree, etc, etc). Even if all of the really expensive cards dropped into this range, most of the random n00bs still won't have it. I've been playing for over six years and I'm not even halfway to owning a full set of duals (I've been making a serious effort since about halfway through high school).

Reprints take the barrier to entry and remove it for the players who have already made a significant investment of time and money, but leave it in place for some Standard-playing random kid who knows jack about Vintage. There's a difference between a low barrier and no barrier.

[Puschkin]

The Apprentice analogy was only a comparison and of course exaggerated.

And we are talking about a whole set of reprints. For sure, this set will not consist of nothing but the P9 and Legend Rares. There will be anything from Sinkhole to Duallands and even Lightning Bolts to make a set that really contains stuff you need in Type I. And that boosters will cost the same money like normal boosters.

And since almost every single card you open will be tremendously useful, the cards will NOT be worth something like 15-20 dollars, since for that money I could buy about 5 boosters.

This in turn means that it is even more unlikely that they will ever reprint such a power set. Especially if the players buy like crazy (and they would). WotC would produce a set that maybe contains many power cards but also crap. As always when you want to drive sales up. Why sell one power set if you could make 3 sets out of them that would sell as well?
Then again, you reprinted about any old card there ever was and you pissed off collecters since many cards are only valuably because of their rarity, not by play value.

[mtgmooner]

Im not saying that power cards are in themselves unnecessary or impractical in an environment that supports them...it is ludicrous to presume from my comments that I am saying a powered deck doesnt have an advantage...but what I AM saying that it is NOT neccessary to alter the enviroment by sanctioning proxies and that sort of thing.  

And price goes up on demand dude...part od the problem with power pricing is that there is always some idiot on ebay with too much money...and it only takes one auction to end at a stupid price before anyone else selling power gets greedy and wants the same...the marketplace is drastically altered by the actions of a few people.  Since I have played magic (with the expception of when lotus was $15 and i thought that was pricey), power has always seen the same ballpark for value, and fluctuates up and down.  Magic (particularly Vintage) is seeing a good surge of popularity right now, so it is logical to assume the prices will inflate as demand for the older cards increases.  But whose to say that one month from now pending new banning and restricted decisions from WotC (hypothetical of course ), that Vintage players dont get pissed off and quit...that of course may cause an influx of power cards in the market, and drive the price down.  Valuing the playablity of a card on price alone is asinine...but I guess everyone has there own thoughts on things.

For real though, the operations of the environment do NOT tinkering...leave what is a sucessful formula (for now) alone...

[Martyr]

I believe an article was written about this a year or two ago, and the author had some VERY valid points for both options, but eventually decided that that sort of a reprint policy would be the death knell of Magic: the Gathering as a Collectible Card Game.

While it's true that reprinting cards has made their original values actually INcrease (think about AN City of Brass and Unlimited/Revised Icy Manipulators), this only works for one reason.

It increases demand for that specific card. If you reprint City of Brass, people want it for Extended and Standard, and there are the inevitable collector/players that immediately want a set of TD Ball Lightnings.

It's like...I mean, think of the singles market if everyone only needed ONE of a card for a deck; if every card were restricted in Standard, and the sets remained the same size and retained their rarites? It'd be pretty bad, right?

So, if you reprinted cards that were legal in Standard and used in Vintage, you'd increase the value of the originals. People are fascinated and enamoured by rarity, which is one reason I think that people are against the "de-rarifying" of their P9.

I hate to say it, but that is EXTREMELY selfish. "I worked hard so I could have an advantage, so why can't you?" seems logical at first, but that kind of intrudes on Magic in what it's supposed to be: a game of the mind.

Games between decks should NOT be decided by the budgets used to create these decks, they should be decided by the talent and focus of their players.

While you can argue that it's obviously a part of the game, it really isn't. It's an unfortunate effect; brother to the cause of "things aren't free in a capitalist society". The company wants to make money, so it introduces rarity and power based on rarity. Simple.

However, because the cards you want to be re-printed and distributed are NOT going to be available for Standard play, you really can't assume that the value of the originals won't take a hit. Sure, some people will lose some business. Sure some people will lose money, some will lose faith in the game. But really, how bad is that?

Wizards is also not making any money off these old cards, other than what demand new "Vintage-focus" cards create, like Chalice of the Void.

I don't want to step on people, but the fact remains that the most competitive decks; the decks that involve the most skill and the most experience and the most intellect to successfully (and rather satisfyingly, might I say)play,  require an insane cash investment. It's hard to get the cards, true. But hard to get and impossible are two different standards. Those of us that are attracted to Vintage because of the intense intellectual appeal are turned off (extremely) by the fact that to play those games with a significant level of satisfaction one must spend inoordinate amounts of time, money, or both.

The price to play a game? Thousands of dollars or insane amounts of effort "trading up" in an environment (due to the explosion of popularity) that is very hostile to this? I think that's ridiculous.

While some of you have spent that time willingly or at least with a certain amount of pride, I have no desire to do so. I really don't care (forgive my callousness) for your obession to this shallow aspect of the game. I want to play, I want to have a chance, and most of all, I want to challenge you. It's not all that possible to do so without a certain level of equality.

I can't just buy packs to finish my Vintage decks. If I were the scrubby eight year old and you were the schnazzy high schooler that usually wins or ties for FNM, that'd be different. I just buy the packs, play in the tournamesnts; work my way up to your level.

But the fact is, I have to spend a significant portion of my adult life getting there, not six months of immersion; spending every weekend at the game store learning and trading for cards that people actually have extras of. I equal (or at least, some of you) or surpass you in skill, but there is little my stompy deck can do in terms of explosive starts when I am limited to "forest, ditch spirit guide, 2x skyshroud elite" against your combo Long, or Stax, or WelderMUD, or Keeper. The decks that are available afford me no interaction, the element I am searching for when I turn away from Standard and towards Vintage.

In conclusion, Vintage is growing beyond your investments. I am in favor of such a set not because I resent what you have, or want the easy way out, but because I want to play with you. Simple as that.

So, print the set, deal with the drop in prices (I find it hard to believe that many of you have staked your entire economic survival on your ownership of maybe fifty different cards. I also find it hard to believe that STORES stake their survival on the sale of such cards, not packs), and welcome the influx of new players. You complain about strategic ignorance? Well, here's your chance to revel in your superiority or teach new players and perhaps grow as a result.

I empathize, but I really think that this is the best way to do it. Just level the playing field. Any "upheavals" that happen as a result of this will be short-lived and really, a good thing. How many of the people that would quit Magic altogether if the P9 halved in value do you really want around? How much do they add to the community?

Just a few (wordy) thoughts.

Oh, and this is (I think) what the set should look like.

P9
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Bazaar of Baghdad

and a cool foil card; an oldie but goodie sort of thing, like Rukh Egg was for the 10th anniversary. If you need more Bazaars or Factories, you could get more sets. They could even put them in decks. Like, old decks from back in the day.

Sorry for being so windy. 'Hope it didn't sound rant-ey.

[Smash]

1x Mishra's factory? Why can't you buy a $1 card on your own?


On a serious note, this discussion goes nowhere. Some people want reprints, some do not. If reprints became tourney legal, I would personally quit. This is a CCG. Taking out the collection for people who complain is stupid.

To me vintage is not something everyone is "entitled" to play powered. I like to kick back ,relax, and go nuts with my entire collection. If you want balanced cards go play t2... but I bet you are the same kind of people who complain exalted angel cost too much?

In any case, WOTC will never reprint or allow proxies... so what do these discussions accomplish?

[Soujiro The Tenken]

i'm sure he meant mishra's workshop and not mishra's factory.

ok honestly is it really super hard to get power? i've been playing for 1 year (i'm only 14 years old) and i already have a black lotus and a mox jet. I'm on my way to make masknought and it hasn't really been that hard. you guys are complaining about how hard it is, but it isn't. Wotc will most llikely lose lots of cash because of the statement someone said earlier. Wotc gets their cash from t2 not t1. t1 is just more fun in my opinion. If reprints were to occur than everyone would switch to t1 and t2 would be left with nothing and wotc with no more money. Its as simple as that. I know many people have said this already, but i figure i would just say it one more time for everyone who doens't read the entire thread and just reads the last posts.      

[BrokenNut]

Yes, please dont get Mishra's Factory reprinted. It's tough enough for me to collect them all already. Now I have to get several more thousand, ugh!  

If power was reprinted, the value would not increase as with City of Brass and such other reprints. The reason being, it WONT be type 2 legal. That is an obvious. So there would be no huge tremendous need for everyone to go try and collect the orignals since they still would not be able to use them. All the people that were trying to get power though would now just not go and blow $200 on a mox and instead spend whatever the price is on a full set of the reprints and be done with it all. This makes the price go down since there is less demand.

Orginally the game was designed to be collectable. And having the power cards was built into the game to be a hard thing to do and if you did manage to collect them all, you were supposed to have an advantage. That is why they  were designed with such a high power level, if someone wanted to work to collect them all with how rare they orginally were, then they should be able to reap the benefits for that. It is still the same today, if you want to be able to enjoy a powered deck, you are going to have to work to get that powered deck, not have it handed to you.
Just to state, I'm not up for reprints merely because I paid $2000 for my power 9, and I would like to sell it back at a higher price later on. This does not make me a dealer by the way, as the earlier argument against them stated. Anyone would like to make money on something they paid for, dealer, collector, or player. So don't think it is only the dealers that are screwing up the ebay prices. I couldn't care less about a person across from me playing with the fake cards though, we have full proxy tournaments here all the time to try and make it a level playing field. You know what though, the people with real power, are the ones still winning despite unlimited proxies allowed, why? Because they are the ones that invest the time and effort to play and be competitive as well as the cash. Just because they reprinted power doesn't mean the game will suddenly open up to everyone and it will be all fair, there is still a huge time investment that goes into Magic, and vintage especially with the large card pool at your disposal.