[Deck] Charbelcher Combo 2004

[Shades]

YOU DON'T NEED DISRUPTION VERSUS CONTROL !!!

Your disruption is your speed. They HAVE to mull into a force, otherwise they simply loose.

Welders are there, because they are belcher no 5-7.


I only lost one lonely game during the hole tourney, due to mulligan to four, and then only playing Sapphire, BS, and then dying to the opponents Shattering pulse.

I've played versus Control once and once versus TriniStax.

Against Trinistax, he played 2nd turn Platinum Angel and I crashed him the turn with belching his Angel and belching him, too. (After Necroing for 8, double Draw-7 and Will)

The second game, he mulls to 4, playing emerald, sol ring (trinipshere on his hand) but dying before his 2nd turn.


Against Control (Ur Phid with 4 FoW's, 4 Drains, 4 Counterspells, 4 Mana Leaks)it's the same, he has to mull into a force, and if he's not a good player, don't doing that, he's going to lose anyway.

1st game, he had the force for my twister, but not for my 2nd turn tinker, 3rd turn he was dead.

2nd game, saw me goldfishing on turn two, because he was not a good player mulliganing into a force.

The other matchups were WW(Channel is sooo good versus Aura of Silence ), 2 Suicides, 1 Vengeur Masque with white and Arcbound.dec (Thats such a great idea, it beats every other aggro deck like a mad man and its also good versus
control, but it looses horribly to combo )

Last week, I won Minden with Belcher.dec too, only loosing one game versus Carsten Kötter (mon) with B2B Hulk with Duress main and one game versus Hanno Terbuyken with Keeper (two teammembers ).

This deck hurst the format, it is better than the old Long, because it recovers better and it isn't that effected by Sphere of Resistance and CotV like Long was. Simply because of the fact, that you don't have to play 10 spells to win, you only have to pay 7 Mana to win and thats fairly easy with ESG's, Rituals and Tinder Walls(!).

The only problem is 1st turn Trinisphere and also only if he begins.

[carlossb]

The only problem is 1st turn Trinisphere and also only if he begins.

That´s ONLY true if opponent  wins the dice roll. I think this is one of the most important things in the TriniMud vs. Belcher match-up:
TO WIN THE DICE ROLL

I played with the Dülmen version allll night (I´m from Europe), and it´s nearly as fast as old-long, and easier to play.

[Shades]

The only problem is 1st turn Trinisphere and also only if he begins.

That´s ONLY true if opponent  wins the dice roll. I think this is one of the most important things in the TriniMud vs. Belcher match-up:
TO WIN THE DICE ROLL

I played with the Dülmen version allll night (I´m from Europe), and it´s nearly as fast as old-long, and easier to play.

My opponent won the die roll and began the 2nd game too. But you are right, the die roll is very important

[Toad]

Maybe he was not an expert with the deck or familiar with the matchup. I have tested $T4KS a lot against experimented Combo players and this deck dies to Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void (for 1), Sphere of Resistance (not a sudden death, but It's hard to recover from that) and Damping Matrix. I have a really good record with $T4KS against 'Belcher. Speed is not enough. Disruption is good.

[bebe]

Maybe he was not an expert with the deck or familiar with the matchup.

I'm entirely in agreement with Toad. I've added four Duress to my build in the hopes of going first and snaring the Chalice, Trinisphere or Null Rod. I'm quite sure I would have won a few match ups I lost if a bit of disruption was in the build. I used Xantid Swarms when I should have had Duress but I will not make that mistake twice.

[carlossb]

So, this deck goes in the direction of winning against 'all' the field with its pure speed (and luck with rolls...), and loose all the games against trini-mud?
(Of course I´m exagerating...)

why not to focus on winning the rest of the matches, and let the sideboard deal with trinimud (with artifact hate, or a transformational sideboard)??

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Do you guys think I can push through the disruption as I don't see how I can win if my first belcher is forced or duressed.

The deck is regularly able to present a lethal threat on turn 1 and turn 2. Duress alone regularly won't stop you, FoW is better (making you waste Mana). If the opponent can't counter twice till turn three he's almost always dead.

I just don't see how the Dulmen decks beat, say, fish. Fish has FOW + Stifle + maybe Daze followed up by Null Rod.

Winning the die-roll (they can't always mulligan into FoW). Still Fish probably is the decks worst matchup because it has FoW AND Null Rod. But who plays fish anyway ?

Regular control is pretty much a toss up. In my experience they can counter two threats till turn 3 about 50% of the time. i

From Dülmen:
I played vs Hulk (good player) and Keeper (see T8):
vs Hulk:
2:0
Game 1: I win on turn 3 through 3 counters on his side.
Game 2: He mulls to 5 (because of mana issues) so he didn't have a FoW. 1st turn Channel.

Keeper:
1:2
Game 1: He mulls to 4. I mull to 3 though
Game 2: I win on turn 1 or 2 because he couldn't find FoW.
Game 3: I mull to 5, he has 3 FoW and 3 Mana Drain by turn 5.

Again the die-roll is incredibly important, as is the randomization of the deck. If they don't have 1st turn counter and you win the roll, they might as well scoop at that moment. If they win the roll, turn 2 + 3 counter might be enough. This deck is about as good vs control as Long was.

Maybe he was not an expert with the deck or familiar with the matchup. I have tested $T4KS a lot against experimented Combo players and this deck dies to Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void (for 1), Sphere of Resistance (not a sudden death, but It's hard to recover from that) and Damping Matrix. I have a really good record with $T4KS against 'Belcher. Speed is not enough. Disruption is good.

I tested this matchup, too, and what you say is very different from my experience (we exchanged decks in the middle of it to get correct stats). There are two ways things happen:

Belcher wins the die roll.
You drop all your mana turn one and don't care for any lock-part they might throw at you aside from Chalice 4 (in case you couldn't drop the belcher turn1) or, in rare cases Tangle wire. I lost like 5% or less against Stax going first simply because I couldn't mulligan into a good hand. Both Spheres are shitty if Belcher had the first turn.

Belcher looses the die-roll.
If there is not Trinisphere, or 2 lock-parts including one sphere of Resistance and either another Sphere or a Chlice (1 or 0) on the table when Belcher gets its turn, Stax looses. A very few games have been won by a first turn Sphere of Resistance followed by Chalice/Tangle Wire on turn 2 and Smokestack turn 3. Maybe I'm just bad at shuffling, but I wasn't able to mulligan into a hand that could do this more than 80% of the time.
IMO this makes the matchup into something like 40-60 in Belchers favor.

I'm entirely in agreement with Toad. I've added four Duress to my build in the hopes of going first and snaring the Chalice, Trinisphere or Null Rod. I'm quite sure I would have won a few match ups I lost if a bit of disruption was in the build. I used Xantid Swarms when I should have had Duress but I will not make that mistake twice.

If you go first, you don't need disruption against anything but Null Rod and FoW, so Duress is pretty useless there. FoW would be the thing the deck needs, but there is no room for enough blue cards.

To end this, I want to talk a little about the effectiveness of mentioned hate cards:

Null Rod: This is by far the best card vs the deck. It cuts most permanent mana sources (making it harder to soulte fast) and the primary kill.

Trinisphere: Trinisphere is usually a minor anoyance if you go first (your mana is already on the table and your kill costs 4 anyway) slowing your kill by about a turn. Dropped on you turn 1 if they go first, you might as well scoop.
Sphere of Resistance: A single one slows you down by 1 to two turns (0-1 if you go first, 1-2 if you go second). For two Spheres turn 1 (loosing the die-roll) and any other business following, see Trinisphere on turn 1. Double Sphere is far better than Trinisphere if Belcher went first, though.

Chalice: If set to 0, it usually doesn't do much (if not joined by a Sphere of Res, at that point it's great). If set to 1, it usually slows the kill down by 1 turn.  

Damping Matrix: I really can't say, as I didn't test much vs it, but it should be by far easier to handle than Null Rod. It costs more (making it less reliable) and doesn't affect your mana. It's big advantage is, that it's usually found in decks that also play FoW.
 
Root Maze: This slows you down by 2 turns (Mana enters play tapped and Belcher does, too). That would be great if it wouldn't usually slow the other player down by one turn, too. Therefor it's not very effective.

[Jhaggs]

First off, I just want to reiterate Bebe's sentiments in regards to the Charbelcher.  It really is an amazing win condition.  I think it has legitmate promise inside a top level meta game.

I have been running a charbelcher build exclusively over the past two weekends.  I have had roughly 50 games matches with it against an actual opponent.  Here are some thoughts and questions that I have amassed thus far:

1.  Duress and/or Xantid Swarm is a must.  I have tried versions of this type of deck that favored more speed over disruption/control.  Without a mechanic to enable a sucessful "combo-ing" of the belcher, this deck is far too susceptable to a mutitude of cards that are being currently played.

2.  Mindslaver is a huge concern.  If a mindslaver is resolved or welded into play, you are in a lot of trouble.  I think that if blecher.dec is too become a legitmate combo deck, it must address this matchup.

3.  I am growing skeptical of Goblin Welders in the build.  Too many times I have just not used them when I needed to win.  I think 4 Blechers are plenty.  I have cut them from my test version for right now and haven't looked back.  

4.  Currently I think Burning Wish and/or Death wish is a preferred choice over Living Wish.  Burning wish can grab a win condition (tendrils), grab artifact removal (Hull Breech/Deconstruct), grad draw spells (Dimishing returns), or even other great soceries (Balance).  If you still want creatures and lands in the Sb, then go with Death Wish.  I am still running with Buring and/or Death Wish over Living wish so it is a "test in progress".  However, I do like the results thus far.

5. From Bebe's build on page two of the thread, I have incorporated Eladamri's Vineyard.  I really like this card in this deck.  It can helpout against a resolved trinisphere or sphere of resistance.  I realize that the vinyards can improve artifact.dec's ability to cast more artifacts and that some will suggest boarding them out, however I am am testing with them MD in this matchup to see if the extra mana benifits me more.

Also, I feel that the mana it gives you is much more benifical than the mana it will give your opponent in other matchups.  It simply allows you to win quicker.  This maybe a card that I cut if it really starts to backfire, but so far it has been a tremendous push.

6.  Brainstorm's can't be cut from the build.  I'm convinced that there needs to be 4 of them in the build.  Brainstorm facilitates too much to be reduced.

7.  I have gone to 3 lands instead of 2.  My extra land in Taiga.  Since mountains can double the damage and since I have a couple of MD red spells, I think blecher can get away with its inclusion.

8.  A MD Tendrils is fantastic.  Props to whoever posted about this first.

[frimble]

I had taken a B/G version of the deck that was posted during the temporary forums by JPMeyer (Ruinn created) and added blue to it going to 2 lands.  Michael took my list and put in the tendrils and living wishes. So, maindeck Tendrils would be Michael from Cincinnati (Lucentspirit).  He then took it to the Columbus tourney Feb. 7th and was in first place after the Swiss rounds.  

He and I have done a lot of playtesting and building via phone and internet.  Since neither Cinci nor Indianapolis have many quality type 1 players for live testing, we must rely on statistical analysis.  But it is a combo deck so statistics is about all it needs

Travis

[Dozer]

I am going to chime in here without direct quotations, because there are a lot of issues I am refering to and quoting all these unnecessary clutters this this reply.

First, let me introduce myself - I am the Keeper player that Mon lost against in the final round of the last Dülmen, placing me in 5th place after a 6-1 finish. I am also a member of Team CAB and have witnessed the Minden (where I placed second) and Dülmen wins of Kim Kluck w/ Belcher (Shades here on the board, whom I owe a lot of testing experience - so thanks a lot, Kim).

First issue: Vineyards. I do not think Vineyard has a place in the deck, because it is not necessary (as the Dülmen win proves well enough, I think) and accelerates the two cards that really pose a problem for Belcher: Trinisphere and/or Damping Matrix. If you do not win on turn one but play a Vineyard, chances increase that your opponent will be able to cast either one, and you'll be in more serious trouble than the Vinexard mana is worth.

Second issue: Disruption (of any kind). I have seen the deck in action enough times to be convinced that it does not need disruption. As has been said before, about the only things that can stop this deck are 1st turn Trinisphere or Force of Will (barring the rare 1st turn Damping Matrix, which I will discuss later).
Now, what are the options that a fast combo deck has against FoW? Usually, players turn to Duress. This might possibly work, but slows the deck down quite a deal, since casting Duress requires a black mana which is spent and done after casting. Every other card in the deck either replaces itself, makes more mana than was spent to play it, or wins (Belcher, and Welder turning into Belcher). Time is key here. If they have the 1st turn Force, Duress will help, but only at the cost of giving them another turn to draw into either another Force, a Drain (because they will have two mana at that point), or a Damping Matrix. By slowing the deck that way, you are giving your opponent wielding the control deck more options than he had before.

Every turn your opponent gets decreases your chances of winning, especially when going second because your opponent can charge up to Drain-Mana more easily before your second turn. In my experience, if control can survive the second turn, it will usually win. And that is also how my T8 match against Mon played out. In the first game, he kept a 3-card hand that did just not hold enough pressure to win by turn 2, so I won. The second game was the exact opposite, since I held a hand without force but Drain Mana for my second turn, which was too slow because he naturally went first and killed me in his second turn. The third game saw me going first and holding a hand against which he would have had a hard time winning, even with Duress. I had Land, Sapphire, Drain, Drain, Mind Twist (+ 2 other cards) and was able to topdeck more counters. Had I not ripped double Force, Wasteland, Damping Matrix off the top, I STILL would have lost after I drained his first turn Belcher and Mind Twisted him for four.

Belcher has an enourmous potential of coming back, because the only thing they have to do is either resolve a Belcher, resolve a SB'ed Negator, or even an ESG to go into Beatdown mode. When you spent resources dealing with the beatdown, whoops, there comes another Belcher.
However, I digress. Belcher's lategame is utter crap, and it practically starts after the second turn. That is why disruption that makes the Deck a whole turn slower (which is what even a single Duress can do) is worse than just putting the pressure on again after a 1st turn Force.

This is also the reason why Damping Matrix is so good against Belcher. It gives you time. Belcher must get rid of the Matrix or enter the beatdown mode, and Living Wish is the tool to do both (via Uktabi resp. Negator). But Wishing for a solution is time-consuming. Damping Matrix gives a control deck enough time to attack Belcher's mana basis and/or to put it on a clock with Soldiers or Angels, be it Token Angels or Exalted Angels (my new favourite MD win condition).

A first turn Trinisphere is the other problem. But Duress is worthless here. I'll elaborate. If you go first, Mon described it correctly: Drop your mana base, maybe even win 1st turn, and win, albeit slower. Duress is no help here - you won't want to cast it 1st turn because you usually won't have the mana for that trick, and Draw-7's can also take care of any 3Spheres in an opening hand (in fact, of any opening hand). If you go second, why on earth would you want to cast a Duress if a Trinisphere is already on the board? And even if Duress should ever help you first turn, would you play a card that is only good when you win the die roll in a deck?

Which brings us to the next point: The rattling of the dice. Against Belcher, If you have no Null Rod, Damping Matrix, Trinisphere (Nether Void does the same) or Force of Will in your deck, you lose. Period. If you have either one, you need to be able to play it on your first turn if you are not already dead. Force has the advantage of being playable on your opponent's turn as well, so it is the only card of the small arragement of hate that replaces the die roll as the deciding factor. In all other cases, the die roll is decisive. If Belcher wins the die roll, it will usually win. If Belcher loses the die roll, I estimate the chances at 50/50 if (and only if) you have first turn disruption.
Randy Buehler once said at MTG.com that the DCI does not want decks that make the game dependent on the die roll. Belcher is one of those decks.

Because this post is getting long, I reiterate: Belcher is so fast that its own disruption would slow it down too much, and leave it at this for now.

Dozer


P.S.:
Props to Team C.A.B. for placing 100% of members present in last Dülmen's T8 (at 1st, 5th, 7th and 8th) and going a combined 23-4-1, and to Andreas Klaes for T8'ing with his Arcbound.dec.

P.P.S.:
In regard to the Slavery-matchup: I have not tested this, but the main concern for Belcher should be the FoW, not the Mindslaver itself. A second turn Mindslaver is far less likely than Belcher comboing out in that turn.

[Lucentspirit]

About the many incarnations of belcher and it's origins...... like Frimble has already stated the first one land B/G build we saw was posted in the temp forums by JPMeyer (although he gives credit to Ruinn for the deck). You can see the original thread here:

http://zherbus.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=T1&num=1072972537&action=display&start=0

Frimble was the first to run a blue splash with draw sevens and 2 land. Many people still prefer the 1 land B/G version and I can't argue with them. It's a good deck. Anyway, I had already been working on my own B/R/G version with workshops, welders, and wishes when Frimble showed me what he had been working on (I wasn't a manadrain member at the time which is why I never posted). I combined Frimble's decklist with my own (adding in the blue) and came up with the deck I played in Columbus.

Columbus was that version's first real tournament although I had been playtesting it for a month prior. At that point Frimble had given up on the deck as a lost cause and I wasn't expecting much from it. To my surprise it came in 3rd losing only to Frimble playing Super Gro and Kevin Cron playing Trinistax in the semi finals. I didn't play a single tog match up that day, but, I did play 3 seperate stax decks. You can see those tournament results and that deck list here:

 http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=94

You can probably see it's only a few cards different from the dulmen build. I can only assume they picked it up from that posting.

Since columbus I've changed a few of the cards in the deck (After all, columbus was it's first tourny). I feel that the SB still holds much potential to improve Belcher's "bad" match ups. Negator's were a nice touch and I think some kind of man land conversion deserves looking into.

 Here is what I currently run:

    1  Bayou
    1  Tropical Island
    4  Land Grant
    1  Chrome Mox
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Sol Ring
    2  Cabal Ritual
    4  Dark Ritual

    4  Chromatic Sphere
    2  Mana Cylix

    4  Elvish Spirit Guide
    4  Tinder Wall
    2  Goblin Welder

    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Tinker
    1  Mystical Tutor
    2  Living Wish

    2  Brainstorm
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Timetwister
    1  Wheel of Fortune
    1  Memory Jar

    1  Tendrils of Agony
    4  Goblin Charbelcher

    1  Necropotence
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Channel


SB:
    2 Goblin Welder
    2 Oxidize
    2 Xantid Swarm
    1 Artifact Mutation
    1 Mishra's Workshop
    1 Uktabi Orangutan
    1 Taiga
    3 Duress
    1 Gemstone Mine
    1 Scavenger Folk

Just to add...... Frimble still hate's the living wishes with a passion, but plays with them anyway. Also, welders are key during any control match and I wouldn't dare trade them out. I'm still not sure if necro or bargain is better, but, necro gets cast MUCH more oftan and is usually game just as oftan as bargain is.
   I did a huge amount of playtesting on this and I like 6 color converters best. It's hard to beat chromatic sphere, but, mana cylix plays very well with both tinker and the welders. There is nothing worse then being color screwed with a 1 or 2 turn kill in hand.
   As a final note, I really have to agree with dozer that the fact this deck can make the win/loss of a match about a dice roll really takes away the fun of magic. Although I hate to lose to them I'm glad for cards like workshop and force of will because they keep decks like belcher from running completely amok and making magic no fun for anybody.

[frimble]

I don't know that "hate with a passion" is quite the way I'd have put it about the Living Wishes, but I haven't found a better replacement (death wish is too hard to cast).

Right now my SB looks like the one Lucentspirit postedbut instead of the duresses I have negators.  I imagine they would do well against control.

[theorigamist]

A couple of people mentioned Vineyards.  But Vineyards are very, very suboptimal in this deck's powered form.  Essentially, since the opponent gets the mana first, it is very important to keep in mind that almost all of the hate (Chalice, Null Rod, Trinisphere, Spheres...) that hurts this deck the most, or even absolutely nullifies it, are artifacts.  I used to think that giving the opponent green mana would limit their options, but in reality they don't need any other color.  Vineyards have been jumping in and out of my budget list, since, without power, they really are a powerful accelerator.  But in a powered version their is no excuse to run such a risky card.

Quick question: Has anybody tested Enlightened Tutor?  I did a little bit with it in a budget version, but not yet in a powered version.  It only gets Charbelchers (or, rather, that's it's only important function; if you're going for anything besides Charbelcher, it means you already have a Charbelcher, which means you should just win and not waste your time with Tutors), but I found that, by the same reasoning that your speed is like disruption against control (in that they don't see many cards by the time you win), you also don't see many cards.  It's worth testing, I think.

I agree with Dozer about disruption.  At one point I ran Xantids.  I then added Duress or Unmask (I can't remember which), because the Xantids slowed the deck down and gave the opponent enough extra time that I needed the extra disruption.  Basically, if you add disruption you need to dedicate a significant number of slots to it and be prepared for your FT to drop to 3-4.  I'd rather hope for speed game one and have Xantids waiting in the sideboard.

[Mathman07]

@ Jhaggs

#2

First, which version of mindslaver do you mean: control or workshop.

Against control slaver:
Mindslaver costs 10 mana to play and activate.  This means that the earliest it can come on line is turn 3 (turn 1 welder turn 2 TfK, weld, turn 3 activate).  IMO if the control deck even survives to turn 3 then they probably have won the game.  The only time you would have trouble against control slaver would be if you had too much disruption and had a FT of 3.5 instead of 2.5.

Against workshop slaver:
Again, slaver won't be activated until turn 3.  This isn't fast enough to stop a charbelcher win on turn 2.

#3

Welders are essential against control because they return charbelchers.

#4

Death wish is too hard to cast.

#5

Vineyard gives opponents with little acceleration but hate (Dmatrix, Null rod) a chance to play their hate quickly.  If you want to win quicker then cut some disruption.

#6

Brainstorms have been reduced with lots of success in other builds.  Basically, you don't want to draw 2 brainstorms in a game because you will have trouble casting them - they slow you down in multiples.

[Shades]

First, let me introduce myself - I am the Keeper player that Mon lost against in the final round of the last Dülmen, placing me in 5th place after a 6-1 finish. I am also a member of Team CAB and have witnessed the Minden (where I placed second) and Dülmen wins of Kim Kluck w/ Belcher (Shades here on the board, whom I owe a lot of testing experience - so thanks a lot, Kim).

Second issue: Disruption (of any kind). I have seen the deck in action enough times to be convinced that it does not need disruption. As has been said before, about the only things that can stop this deck are 1st turn Trinisphere or Force of Will (barring the rare 1st turn Damping Matrix, which I will discuss later).
Now, what are the options that a fast combo deck has against FoW? Usually, players turn to Duress. This might possibly work, but slows the deck down quite a deal, since casting Duress requires a black mana which is spent and done after casting. Every other card in the deck either replaces itself, makes more mana than was spent to play it, or wins (Belcher, and Welder turning into Belcher). Time is key here. If they have the 1st turn Force, Duress will help, but only at the cost of giving them another turn to draw into either another Force, a Drain (because they will have two mana at that point), or a Damping Matrix. By slowing the deck that way, you are giving your opponent wielding the control deck more options than he had before.

Every turn your opponent gets decreases your chances of winning, especially when going second because your opponent can charge up to Drain-Mana more easily before your second turn. In my experience, if control can survive the second turn, it will usually win. And that is also how my T8 match against Mon played out. In the first game, he kept a 3-card hand that did just not hold enough pressure to win by turn 2, so I won. The second game was the exact opposite, since I held a hand without force but Drain Mana for my second turn, which was too slow because he naturally went first and killed me in his second turn. The third game saw me going first and holding a hand against which he would have had a hard time winning, even with Duress. I had Land, Sapphire, Drain, Drain, Mind Twist (+ 2 other cards) and was able to topdeck more counters. Had I not ripped double Force, Wasteland, Damping Matrix off the top, I STILL would have lost after I drained his first turn Belcher and Mind Twisted him for four.

Yeah, it has great potential of coming back, even after having no cards in hand and only having one land in play. I saw the game Mon vs. Dozer and Dozer had a god hand. 1st turn drain on the Mons Belcher then mind twisting him for four. mon draws and played sol ring. Dozer draws another force. mon plays ancest->drain. Dozer draws another FoW. mon plays Timetwister->foW. andit went so on. Mon drawing thread after thread and dozer drawing 6 counters and 2 wastelands and finally the damping matrix.

Another example: My opponent goes first, i draw and play mana->time twister, he fow's, I BS. He draws and plays another island. I do nothing. In his endstep I play ancest, he drains. In my turn I tinker my belcher into play and simply won.

I simply want to say, that your deck has so incredibly many threats, that your oppnent can't counter everything, and the 1st draw 7 or Belcher means in 90% of the time, game.

Have I already said, that I've only lost 3 games in 12 rounds of swiss . 4 control matchusp and one stax, 4 suicides with maindeck null rods.

Maybe Fish is the worst matchup, but I didn't face it until now.

Belcher has an enourmous potential of coming back, because the only thing they have to do is either resolve a Belcher, resolve a SB'ed Negator, or even an ESG to go into Beatdown mode. When you spent resources dealing with the beatdown, whoops, there comes another Belcher.
However, I digress. Belcher's lategame is utter crap, and it practically starts after the second turn. That is why disruption that makes the Deck a whole turn slower (which is what even a single Duress can do) is worse than just putting the pressure on again after a 1st turn Force.

This is also the reason why Damping Matrix is so good against Belcher. It gives you time. Belcher must get rid of the Matrix or enter the beatdown mode, and Living Wish is the tool to do both (via Uktabi resp. Negator). But Wishing for a solution is time-consuming. Damping Matrix gives a control deck enough time to attack Belcher's mana basis and/or to put it on a clock with Soldiers or Angels, be it Token Angels or Exalted Angels (my new favourite MD win condition).

A first turn Trinisphere is the other problem. But Duress is worthless here. I'll elaborate. If you go first, Mon described it correctly: Drop your mana base, maybe even win 1st turn, and win, albeit slower. Duress is no help here - you won't want to cast it 1st turn because you usually won't have the mana for that trick, and Draw-7's can also take care of any 3Spheres in an opening hand (in fact, of any opening hand). If you go second, why on earth would you want to cast a Duress if a Trinisphere is already on the board? And even if Duress should ever help you first turn, would you play a card that is only good when you win the die roll in a deck?

Which brings us to the next point: The rattling of the dice. Against Belcher, If you have no Null Rod, Damping Matrix, Trinisphere (Nether Void does the same) or Force of Will in your deck, you lose. Period. If you have either one, you need to be able to play it on your first turn if you are not already dead. Force has the advantage of being playable on your opponent's turn as well, so it is the only card of the small arragement of hate that replaces the die roll as the deciding factor. In all other cases, the die roll is decisive. If Belcher wins the die roll, it will usually win. If Belcher loses the die roll, I estimate the chances at 50/50 if (and only if) you have first turn disruption.
Randy Buehler once said at MTG.com that the DCI does not want decks that make the game dependent on the die roll. Belcher is one of those decks.
.

For everyone who wants to know: I only won 2 out of 7 dice rolls .
And both versus the suicide decks, if i remember correctly (my notes aren't clear in this point)

[Jhaggs]

Dozer, Lucentspirit, and Frimble, thanks for the notes on the orgins of the deck.  The links were a great read  This entire thread has been incredible helpful and I think this combo deck is showing great promise.

I have read through this entire thread once more in an attempt to consolidate some of the many ideas that are floating around.  I think I counted up to 6 variations of what people have been running.  It is exciting to see that many people are starting to jump on board the charbelcher bandwagon as I have.  This thread has been a great source to try out new ideas but it is starting to become overwhelming.   I realize that this is a very new style of a combo deck and that there just hasn't been enough testing done.  However, I will be running a fully powered build of a charbelcher deck this weekend in a group tournament and I would like to see if we can start organizing some of the tech being thrown around.  Here are some issues that I would liked to be resolved (if possible) in order to see if we can formulate a more conhesive direction towards an optimal build:

Issue 1.  What is the perferred number of lands to be maindecked?  Most builds in this thread MB Bayou and Tropical Island only.  I have had alot of sucess throwing in Tagia since its a mountain that works well with Belcher.  Can/should this deck run a third land?  How often has only two lands hurt an explosive start?  In a control matchup, are opponents starting to counter land grant?

Issue 2.  Is living wish a stable in the build?  Most players seem to be running this wish but I prefer the options that burning wish gives you.  I have tried the Death Wish several times, but as Mathman07 pointed out, it can be a burden sometimes.  Weighing the pro and cons for each wish, can we conclude on one that serves the deck best?

Issue 3. Can Goblin Welders be cut?  I maybe the only one suggesting this and if I am coming from way out of left field please show me why.  I think that if you are running 4 Belchers, the welder maynot be needed.  Even in a control matchup, I think the deck maybe better served if you used these slots for something like Swarm or Duress.  Is the Welder an absolute MD card?

Issue 4.  Duress or Xantid Swarm or none at all?  Which has proven to be the most effective?  I ran swarms this past weekend knowing that I would see BBS and GAT.  They proved to be incredibly effective as they shut down the obvisous control spells including stifle which is prevelent in my test group.  Is duress a preferred spell since it can punch a hole for combo-ing out sooner than Swarm?  Or is the deck better served with a balls out approach.  SHould the belcher run speed over disruption and/or control?

Issue 5.  Should Eldarmi's Vineyard be cut entirely?  Theorigamist made some compelling arguments against its use and I have seen less and less players opting for it.  Can we just eliminate it from further discussion or is there a valid argument for it?  My previous reasons for running it were that it can give you some extra mana to still cast spells against Sphere and Trinisphere.  Some have argued that it hurts too much because it allows your opponent to cast hate faster.  However in many of my matches, my opponent was going to be able to cast hate arifacts regardless of a Vineyard or not.  So why not just still maindeck them?  Is this logic just incredibly flawed?  I know that I will see this type of hate in my meta, how should I prepare.

Issue 6.  I mentioned the mindslaver issue previously.  I should have been more clear that it was Control SLaver that I was having problems with.  I'm not sure if others have been noticing this, but it seems that more and more players are going the mana drain route with mindslaver.  I'm still think that Control Slaver is a problem matchup.  Maybe if the Duress/Swarm is settled I can prepare better for this matchup.  My problem is that my COntrol SLaver opponent is getting to turn three.  Perhaps this opinion is skewed because my slaver opponent runs stifle in the MD in addition to FOW and Drain.  Maybe if there was a more optimal build to work from I could address this matchup better.  Is anyone else having troubles with this matchup?

Issue 7.  What is the preferred Brainstorm count?  I have never hated to see a brainstorm in my hand.  I have an extreme bias towards always running 4 of them in the MD and they are always castable for me.  Is the concensus that they can be reduced?

I realize that others have addressed additional issues so I don't mean to dominate attention away from them.  These are personal issues that I would like to see addressed for some upcoming matches.  My opponents this weekend will most likely be GAT, Hulk, Control SLaver, Trinistax, Oshawa Stompy, B/G Sui, and another Blecher variant.  Thanks in advance!!!!

EDIT:  Apologies for another itemized post....I'm doing my taxes and I'm in that mode.

[Dozer]

Issue 1.  What is the perferred number of lands to be maindecked?  Most builds in this thread MB Bayou and Tropical Island only.  I have had alot of sucess throwing in Tagia since its a mountain that works well with Belcher.  Can/should this deck run a third land?  How often has only two lands hurt an explosive start?  In a control matchup, are opponents starting to counter land grant?

I don't have much time on my hands now, and I have already given my opinon on some of the points, but to this I say: If control players did not counter Land Grants to this day, they will now. It is a clear-cut answer. Land Grants were a prime target for counterspells in the heydays of 9-land-Stompy and still are. The real problem is that sometimes you'd like to counter the Land Grant against Belcher, but you just can't, because they have enough other mana sources and a Belcher in hand, so you must spare the counter for the kill card and cannot go into disruption as fast as you'd like to.

Remember that you will see their hand before deciding to counter the Land Grant. If they only have a Mox as a second source, go ahead and counter it unless they have Mox Jet + Ritual, at which point you will have to let them play. Then, counter the Draw-7 or the Belcher.

As for the Taiga, that seems to be ok but appears to be a two-edged sword. I know that if Belcher's one land is wasted after surviving the first turn, the disruption kicks in severely, and Taiga could help out in that area. However, the problem is that once you have three lands, chances rise a lot that you will not kill your opponent with one Belcher activation, not even with a revealed mountain. I have played one or two test games where I could not stop the Belcher and he got stuck on the Tropical to give me enough time to lay Damping Matrix. If you go the 3-land-route, I would like it best if at leat two of the lands were Mountains. That's very hard due to color issues, though: A Bayou/Tropical/Taiga-configuration should be ok because you can Land Grant out every one of these. A Bayou/Tropical/Volcanic-configuration makes Belching less risky but also requires you to rely on even more luck because you cannot remove every land in your deck with Land Grant.

Personally, I would advise two land. You will not resolve 3 Land Grants most of the time, mostly because you will not draw that many. That means that Belching becomes a game of chance instead of a secure hit, because the third land stays in your library unless you are lucky and draw it. This might delay your kill for one turn, and we already have discussed the importance of time for playing and winning with this deck.

Also, Mana Cylix is a nice little card I have not even known to exist until reading it here, and it can also solve any color issues so that the third land would not be necessary. If the amount of mana is a problem, you might try Cabal Ritual, which is the next likely replacement if Dark Ritual gets restricted anyway.

Dozer

[frimble]

Replying to Jhaggs issues:

#1 (MD lands) I have run 2 since I first started playing the deck.  I often bring in a 3rd (Taiga) when going up against blue control.  I do this to be able to have enough mana avalable to cast multiple threats on the same turn.  Since we run so many "must-counters", I figure if I can cast multiple per turn within the first 3 turns then I will eventually get one through and ride it to the win.  Often I will lead with the Belcher...followed by a draw 7...then end up killing using the Welder -- as he can typically  be cast the same turn as a Wheel or Twister.

#2 (Wishes) I have not yet found a replacement for the Living Wishes as I rather enjoy being able to grab a Welder or an extra land from the board.  I used to have 4 Brainstorms, but at the time I also didn't have Mana Cylix to help on the mana conversion, so a green card was more consistant.  I like the idea that if a null rod or damping Matrix hit the table that I am not dead.  I don't like decks that "just die" to a single card resolving.  Against the Damping Matrix the Uktabi Orangutan would come in real handy.  Wen I don't encounter any hate, they do get in my way when trying to win, but they allow "utility" as a way of dealing with the suprises.

#3 (Welders) They are not leaving my build, at least.  They make every artifact in the deck a Belcher (after the first is counterd of course).  Also, an early one can really screw with the workshop decks  

# 4 (disruption) When I removed the 4 MD Duresses (at Lucentspirit's suggestion), I still was winning on turn 2.  Even against control.  By replacing them with other"must-counter" / potential-kill cards, the new ones acted the same way.  The only thing they don't stop are the opposing first turn Null Rods, etc.  So with the Wishes, we can now handle those opposing nasties.

#5 (Vineyards)  They simply give the opponent the extra mana to cast their hate too quickly.  I discovered this in 2 seperate occasions.  First, while I was playing against Nether Void.  If I were to drop a Vineyard turn 1, he was A LOT more likely to cast turn 1 Nether Void (very painful).  Second, when Lucentspirit and I were playing the Belcher mirror (very short games), I found myself brainstorming and putting the vineyards back, not wanting to give him the mana first.  I was still going off turn 2.  So we very quickly replaced them with Tinder Walls and put in 2 Welder's and the Wheel to be able to use the Red.  Now that we run Mana Cylix, colors are rarely a problem.

#6 (Slaver) No comment.  I don't have any experience on it yet.

#7 (Brainstorms) I don't take personal issue with 2-4 Brainstorms as they are a great card and there are quite a few reshufflers. I only run 2 now because I can only have 60 cards. I would like to hear other's testing results.  I really don't think more than 2 on needed, though.

My philosophy on building a combo deck is to go for consistancy.  I would prefer to have a deck that "always" goes off turn 2, than a deck that sometimes goes off on turn 1 but has trouble the other 50%.   (These were just representative figures).

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Issue 2. Is living wish a stable in the build? Most players seem to be running this wish but I prefer the options that burning wish gives you. I have tried the Death Wish several times, but as Mathman07 pointed out, it can be a burden sometimes. Weighing the pro and cons for each wish, can we conclude on one that serves the deck best?

green mana is easier to get for casting the removal, while getting red twice (once to cast Wish and once to cast your removal) is pretty tough. In addition you can only run one Burning Wish, making your solution-count really narrow. For now I'd say Living Wish is the better choice.

Issue 3. Can Goblin Welders be cut? I maybe the only one suggesting this and if I am coming from way out of left field please show me why. I think that if you are running 4 Belchers, the welder maynot be needed. Even in a control matchup, I think the deck maybe better served if you used these slots for something like Swarm or Duress. Is the Welder an absolute MD card?

Goblin Welder is the only disruption the deck runs. If you find 3 more single colored CC draw7s, I'll definitly cut them. Aside from that, other disruption would have to be better than the Welders. In 9 out of 10 metagames I'd guess Welders are better than Swarms.

Issue 4. Duress or Xantid Swarm or none at all? Which has proven to be the most effective? I ran swarms this past weekend knowing that I would see BBS and GAT. They proved to be incredibly effective as they shut down the obvisous control spells including stifle which is prevelent in my test group. Is duress a preferred spell since it can punch a hole for combo-ing out sooner than Swarm? Or is the deck better served with a balls out approach. SHould the belcher run speed over disruption and/or control?

The only slots used for disruption should be the 3 Welder Slots and the 2 Living Wish slots. A way to remove Atifacts is mandatory because of Null Rod and Matrix, IMO, so Wish can't turn into Swarms or Duress.
As for Welders, they allow you to disrupt control as well as Stax (once they've got any artifact in their yard, they've got a problem), which can't be said for Swarms. They also can act as combo-parts in themselves even if no Belcher was countered (generating mana or recurring a Belcher discarded to Wheel or LED).
Duress is simply worse than both cards.
In a metagame without any Stax I might probably play Swarms over Welders, as they also protect my Land Grants and Draw7s. In a mixed meta, Welder has my vote.

Issue 5. Should Eldarmi's Vineyard be cut entirely? Theorigamist made some compelling arguments against its use and I have seen less and less players opting for it. Can we just eliminate it from further discussion or is there a valid argument for it? My previous reasons for running it were that it can give you some extra mana to still cast spells against Sphere and Trinisphere. Some have argued that it hurts too much because it allows your opponent to cast hate faster. However in many of my matches, my opponent was going to be able to cast hate arifacts regardless of a Vineyard or not. So why not just still maindeck them? Is this logic just incredibly flawed? I know that I will see this type of hate in my meta, how should I prepare.

Vineyard is the sux0r. In my testing vs Stax their biggest problem was getting both three mana and the Trinisphere into their starting hand. If you're nice and allow them to have at least 3 mana turn 1, they'll win by far more often.  (just another example in addition to what frimble mentioned)

Issue 7. What is the preferred Brainstorm count? I have never hated to see a brainstorm in my hand. I have an extreme bias towards always running 4 of them in the MD and they are always castable for me. Is the concensus that they can be reduced?

After testing the version of the deck I brought to our testsession for Minden (which had 4 BS), we realized that the blue mana was often hard to get and black cards would do a lot better in those slots. A single BS per game was great, but once we drew a second one, it was usually dead. Because of that we replaced two of them with Demonic Consultation and Spoils and never looked back.

As for the number of lands, I belive 2 is the maximum you want in the (main)deck. With one land left, Belcher is usually lethal, with two it usually isn't. Arguing the third land would be a mountain isn't great, as you regularly won't cast more than 2 Land Grant at the most. If you always leave in the mountain-land you don't need an additional land.
Against decks with heavy mana denial, frimbles way of boarding an additional Taiga might be valuable, though, as it might be vs Stax that's going first. If you can reach 3 mana once under 3Sphere (with ESGs and Lands), you are often able to still win. And having that third land gives you another source of mana that works at that point. .

[bebe]

I've played the three land version and the version posted without Duress. My experiences were not as favorable as yours. There are a number of reasons for this.

1) In our meta Fish is probably one of the most popular decks run. They run both counters and Null Rods. A smart player will counter your Grants if appropriate and get a Null rod out quickly. At that point he has only to deal with wish targets or the wish itself. I have found without Duress this match up is too difficult.

2) I must be doing something wrong. Trinisphere just kills me and i have no easy answers to it. I do not find the match up favorable.

3) I have found that both control and aggro are very winnable matches so we will won't dissect these match ups over much.

4) Not surprisingly the deck can usually out run other combo decks.

5) I dropped Vineyards long ago. I loved the mana boost until I hit slaver.dec Here i'm in agreement.

6) I've never wanted the taiga and I would rather wish up a gemstone or academy. I think two lands are the optimum amount main deck.

[Jhaggs]

Thanks again for your responses.  They have been tremendous and have cleared up several issues for me (no one the vineyards & no on the 3rd land).  I was really hoping to see if I could get away with dropping the Welders but the arguments for them beg me to try them out again.  It will be interesting to see if there can be an agreed upon resolution for the remaining issues but I suspect that there just simply needs to be more time for more matches.  As for my build, it stands as follows:

MANA SOURCES 33
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Land Grant
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Chromatic Sphere

CREATURES 2
Goblin Welder

Disruption 4
Duress

SEARCH 6
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Burning Wish
2 Living Wish

DRAW 10
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will

KILL 5
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Goblin Charbelcher


SB:

1 Balance
1 Deconstruct
1 Hull Breech
1 Tendrils of Agony

2 Goblin Welder
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Scavenger Folk
1 Uktabi Orangutan

1 Taiga
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Gemstone Mine

2 Tormand's Crpyt

[frimble]

I see nothing I don't like about this build. I think at this point there are going to be some slight variences to our individual builds due to play-syle and local metagames.

I would expect the Burning Wish to be cumbersome/slow, and I hadn't even considered it.

You have:
4 Duress
1 Burning Wish
2 extra Brainstorm

where I have:
2 Mana Cylix (love the extra converters and Welder/Tinker targets)
2 Cabal Ritual (makes casting Necro easier to cast)
1 Mystical Tutor (Go get Tinker, and makes Chromatic Spheres even better)
1 Channel (not neccasary, but fun)
1 Chrome Mox (I've been trying to get this one out for a while)
I could see the Channel and the Chrome Mox turning into Brain Storms very easily.

Why do you have 2 Tormod's Crypts in the board?

[Jhaggs]

I think it'll be interesting to see where the slight variations in builds leads this style of deck.  I'll be testing my new changes out this week and will try to comment on whether or not the Duress's were effective and if I miss the extra mana sources that you have included in yours.  Also, it would be great to see if we can definitivly say that Charbelcher is better severed in maximizing its speed.  If speed does equal disruption, what a bold statement for the overall deck.

AS for the Tormands crypt, I suspect that I may see a madness deck and/or a rogue "Bazaar & Welder" build.  Running two Crypts probably just isn't enough and I may just cut them entirely for something else.  Maybe stifles?  Hurkyl's recall?  Diminishing Returns?  Some sideboard slots are still wide open for me at this point.

[carlossb]

@ Frimble:

1 Channel (not neccasary, but fun)

I don´t agree, Channel is very important in the deck, as you can very easily get 2 green mana (from ESG...), and help a lot, as you nearly always pay 19 life, to cast belcher, chromatic spheres......


@ bebe:

6) I've never wanted the taiga and I would rather wish up a gemstone or academy.

I don´t clearly understand under what circunstances would you wish for a gemstone, because you loose 1 mana, and wishing for Workshop or Academy gets you more mana

[Mathman07]

Tolarian Academy only produces blue mana, while Mishra's Workshop only produces colorless mana to play artifacts.  What if you need to play Wheel of Fortune?  Or Channel?  Or Dark Ritual? Or...

This deck is the reason why Channel should be restricted.

[frimble]

You guys are sounding like Lucentspirit.  He yells at me whenever I say I want to take out Channel.  I have yet to do so.

What are your thoughts on the Chrome Mox?

[Jhaggs]

I personally think Chrome mox is a bad mana source for this deck.  What spells do you really want to pitch to it?  I would rather keep Dark Ritual/ESG/Tinder Wall/ as they are all accelerators.  I want to keep my duress's as well as my welders.  All that is left are draw cards that I would much rather cast than remove.  Chrome mox is better served in a deck that is more redundant and where you wouldn't be pitching a critical spell.  If you look at Draw7.dec, chrome mox isn't ususally run because you can ill-afford to throw away a draw spell.  I feel the same principle applies in a belcher deck.

[carlossb]

I feel that nearly always the imprinted cards are a living wish, or a welder, or  a tutor, and functions 'only' as a monocoloured mana source to go off faster

@Mathman07
CHANNEL IS ALREADY RESTRICTED

I believe he simply meant, why it should STAY that way. Since the arguement comes up every so often.
-V

[bebe]

I don´t clearly understand under what circunstances would you wish for a gemstone

Often enough I need a source of mana I do not have on the table - usually red or black - so the gemstone becomes a 'fixit'. I have Wished/Gemstoned and double ritualed more than once. I've wished and tutored. I've wished and Wheeled or played my Welder. It is often useful.

[carlossb]

@bebe:
Why not use Mana Cylix (as sugested previously) as a mana fixer if you´re using enough times the Living Wish as such?