Worse Than Fish.dec

[Jacob Orlove]

This isn't really a report, I just wanted to put up my decklist with some commentary, since people were asking.

This is the list I played on Saturday:
Worse Than Fish.dec
4 River Boa
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
2 Suq'Ata Firewalker

4 Force of Will
2 Stifle

4 Standstill
4 Curiosity
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

3 Null Rod
3 Root Maze

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Yavimaya Coast
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Island

Sideboard:
3 Naturalize
2 Hidden Guerrillas
2 Drop of Honey
1 Stifle
2 Annul
1 Suq'Ata Firewalker
2 Magus of the Unseen
2 Tormod's Crypt

The weird mana base was to accomodate Root Maze, which is strong against GAT, Dragon, and non-beatdown workshop decks (it slows down a first turn Trinisphere by 2 turns). I'm not sure if I want to keep running it, though, because it's so bad going second.

River Boa is an amazing creature, because he can hold off problematic stuff (like Goblin Piledriver or Psychatog), and he's completely unblockable against control. Curious boas are even better.

The Firewalkers are AMAZING. Mad props to PTW for reminding me that they exist (in some mono-U fish thread).

As far as the SB goes, it was awesome. Annuls didn't end up doing much, mostly because I never drew them. Not even once. Everything else was great, though. Magus of the Unseen taps Trinisphere, which is tech.

In terms of games, I lost to Madness, although not decisively. I also lost to a 4-color Tog deck due to some bad draws (one of the drawbacks of the Maze), and to Ultima's GAT in the top 8. I beat two TnT decks, losing game 1 each time, and then coming back with my SB. I also beat a goblin sligh deck (Boa and Firewalker were incredible), and AndyStok's Dragon.

[FishyGuy]

Ok i gotta know - what is up with the suq-ata firewalkers?

Why are they so amazing?
They are 0/'1s
They cost three
Their only ability is poking
They aren't pro red.

So you are saying - 3 to get a 0/1 that tims stuff and can't be burned is good?

[wuaffiliate]

jacob, have you tried dryads in this? it seems liek you have enough to make them a serious threat.

[Jacob Orlove]

jacob, have you tried dryads in this? it seems liek you have enough to make them a serious threat.

Dryad + Standstill is almost as bad as the B2B + manlands suggestion I got on IRC. There's too much anti-synergy there. Plus, all my blue spells are expensive, and River Boa has evasion and regeneration. Boa just makes this deck so much better. Dryad would make it into bad Gro.

On the Firewalker, he's a house with Curiosity, he removes Welders, and he's immune to the removal spells I fear most (Fire, Firestorm). Seriously, just having the single point of damage that can hit creatures is so much better than like Gaea's Skyfolk or something. And removing welders is uber-important in today's meta. When I Force of Will a Triskelion or a Gilded Lotus, I want that Force to count.

[theorigamist]

FishyGuy, it's kinda pro red.  They are great against Sligh/FCG.  You can kill their creatures with that 1 usually, or at least the most important ones.  Firewalker can't be burned away.  What's not to like?

[Dr. Sylvan]

Jacob, I don't know why you were worried about these card choices messing up my stats; the only ones that weren't already in for the month are the Suck-it-down, Yavimaya Coast, Hidden Guerrillas, Drop of Honey, and Magus of the Unseen.

All those are fine cards. I've been waiting for someone to abuse Guerrillas for forever! :)

[Lord of Water]

I love Magus of the Unseen as tech. He's great in Workshop matchups, beatdown or not. Firewalkers, on the other hand, I don't like too much. I perfer maindeck Fire/Ice.

[Jacob Orlove]

I love Magus of the Unseen as tech. He's great in Workshop matchups, beatdown or not. Firewalkers, on the other hand, I don't like too much. I perfer maindeck Fire/Ice.

Tropical Island taps for red mana now?

[HuntedWumpus]

Suq'Ata Firewalker is the bomb maindeck. LOL never thought i would say that. This dude is a house. He is amazing in the mirror match, aswell as crule beyond belief to welder, and sligh when it shows its face. The part that makes him so devistating in the untargetable by red text. Bolt is the only way most Workshop decks have to deal with this dude and he just shruggs. Not to mention the fact that he says tap to draw when curiosity is on him. Wow Broken.

@ Jacob: Do you hunger for another mainboard stifle. It seems like you would benifit from one less hatchling and another stifle. Also, did you give any consideration to Nimble Mongoose. One of my personal favorates, he seems like he may have a home hear, all though i will admit boa is far better in the build

[Smash]

Most workshop decks play some combination of trisk and masticore...

3 mana tims for life!  

[Kowal]

Most workshop decks pack one of those cards, as a one-of.

Of course, most workshop decks pack goblin welder, which this three mana Tim is pretty good at killing.  The counters are to keep those one-of massive threats away.  Tim keeps them from coming back.  Considering Masticore/Trike are dangerous as hell to not just the Firewalkers, it makes sense you'd want a strong method of killing the welders to save the rest of your board.

Also, he does play with both Null Rod and Root Maze, making the Firewalker fast enough for the task.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Jacob,

Congrats on the T8.

I'm kind of curious what got you started splashing green into the gay engine.  Back in December/January, I looked at something like this (Kowal might remember one late evening filled with Mad Dog, iLL Dawg, and playtesting).  I actually went with a 3/3 split with Dryads (in place of root maze) and Boas.  I also had thiefs in place of suquata's, but this was before workshop made a big comeback.  Besides that the decks were identical.

I'm curious why you think Dryad is so bad in this deck.  You play pro-actively, and the lack of synergy with dryad and standstill doesn't make him any smaller than any other creature in your deck.  Often times the standstill won't resolve, or there will be a big counter-war over it.  I think it would be great to have a dryad on the table for that.  The deck certainly doesn't optimize him like GAT, but I think he's a better alternative than others.

How good was root maze?  You said it sucked going second, perhaps should it be in the sideboard?

Regarding the sideboard, would you really rather have magus than, say, Energy Flux?  What would you bring Drop of Honey in against?

[Fuzzedball]

It may just be my personal preference, but I dont like to run Spiketail Hatchlings without Daze. Would Gaea's Skyfolk fit a little better or do you believe the potential Time Walk is better than a bigger body?

[Tijnie]

Spiketails are good enough on their own. Even without daze (making then like a walking FoW and go for daze as the removed card) your opponent still needs to pay that 1 mana extra not knowing if you're even planning to counter it afterall. Thos gives you speed (or slows down your opponent) making it easier to go for a quik standstill, Firewalker and stuf like that.

and don't forget, paying one mana extra with Rods, maze's, Strips and maybe even stifle a fetch.. that one mana may be hard to find for some decks.

Don't go cut any Spiketail here plz, Cutting a creature wouldn't be smart right now anyway You'll be playing only 14 creature's then, If you lose 1 (maybe 2) there will be nothing left to drop Curiosity on making you weak and feel stupid   .

like you said, going second really sucks. Fish always hate's to go second, and this deck makes that only worse   . Wil this be the new fish?? No I don't think so, But it can be a nice Fish deck for some funny Meta's.

Good Job, Hope to hear more about this thing.

[SpencerForHire]

Aright I may be missing something but.. why is [card]Hidden Gibbons[/card] not in over [card]Hidden Guerillas[/card]??? I understand they each have a certain 'waking' trigger but the gibbons are just so good.

[Jacob Orlove]

If I miss anything, ask me again. This is kinda in reverse order, because that's how the topic review window works.

The Guerrillas are in there over the Gibbons because I'm much more worried about artifact based-decks, and because the Guerrillas are ridiculously strong in that matchup, whereas Gibbons is only a 4/4 several turns later. Tog can win without casting a single instant until after my final attack step, whereas artifact decks can't afford to hold back at all. Also, Guerrillas makes an additional answer to a turn 1 trinisphere if I'm on the play.

Spiketail does indeed have synergy with the mana denial in the deck; I tested Skyfolk in here, and they just weren't all that spectacular.

Going anywhere below 14 creatures would mean cutting a Curiosity, and I'm not interested in doing that.

Nothing really prompted this deck; I was just thinking about Root Maze and Fish, and then I remembered Boa. Aside from the Firewalkers, it all came together there.

The real problem with Dryad is that all my blue spells are 2-3cc creatures, and that I want to spend all my mana on manlands anyway. Also, it has anti-synergy, not just with Standstill, but also with Cloud of Faeries. Both want to be the first creature I play on turn 2. Not to mention, it has no evasion, which, combined with my lack of removal, makes it a poor curiosity target. Finally, I really like all my other creatures more, and I don't really have room for 3 more green creatures.

Root Maze may indeed make it to the SB, but at that point, I really have to look and see if I have better stuff to run for those matchups. It's something I'm still working on.

Personally, I like Magus more than Flux, because it's better against decks like TnT and control slavery, while not losing much against workshop slavery or welder mud. It also has more synergy with Null Rod, which is nice, and it can come down turn 1 off a mox. I'm not going to say that it's necessarily the right choice, and anyone who runs energy flux should probably stick with it. Magus just works for me.

Drop of Honey comes in against decks like TnT, Madness, FCG, and sometimes against stuff with welders. It's the only really good answer in green or blue to multiple creatures.

Nimble Mongoose actually wouldn't be that great, because I can't put Curiosity on him (not that I'd really want to). Despite the appearances, green mana isn't that easy to get in this deck, so anything more than boas and mazes MD is tough. Plus, I already have occasional trouble playing Forces.

Another MD Stifle would be nice, but so would Daze, Mis-D, Naturalize, and some others. I just don't see any room, though.

And as to the meta this is for, well, if you see a lot of workshops and Islands, this may be the fish deck for you.

[Pern]

I've never really gotten the Magus.
What do you use it for?
You can sac their Smokestack, tap their Tangle Wire,
and Juggy doesn't attack.
You can borrow their mana, or blow a Lotus.
You might get Mindslaver if they can't pay to activate it.
It dies to any removal whatsoever.
There must be more than that.
What am I missing?

[Jacob Orlove]

Magus is really strong against workshop decks of all kinds, because it deals with all the cards Null Rod doesn't.

Edit: since people are asking, I'll probably have a report + updated decklist for my 2nd place showing at the double lotus event up soon.

[SpencerForHire]

Have you considered running any green buffs?  An example is [card]Ancestral Mask[/card].  Its gives +2/+2 for each curiosity, your current standstill, (and my friend runs Coastal Piracy).. What do you think?

[Hanzalot]

IMO Ancestral Mask looks terrible, it's cc3 for what, +4/+4 if you're lucky and then it's card disadvantage if the target creature gets plowed or bolted in reponse (or just blocked by a juggy). Rancor would be better but I still wouldn't play that. It is just not worth it to cut down on creatures (= curiosity targets) in order to play rather weak enchant creature spells.

[jpmeyer]

Wild Mongrel?

[Jacob Orlove]

Ancestral Mask is horrible. The only creature enchantment in T1 that's remotely playable in the maindeck is Curiosity. And Sword of Fire and Ice is better in the board.

Mongrel is cute, but Boa just works better with everything else in the deck. An evasive 2/1 regenerator is huge enough for fish anyway.

Remember, Fish doesn't play good cards, it plays synergistic cards.

[kirdape3]

Well, our idea was to cut the bad fish creatures for good U/G Madness ones.  Therefore, Mongrel's really good since it powers up Arrogant Wurm.

[Kowal]

Check the discussion Rico started.  I think it was summarized nicely there that Fish is only good because the card selection is very versatile.  Putting madness guys in Fish turns it in to really bad Big O, and Big O isn't very good as it is.

[SpencerForHire]

@Orlove:  Thanks for the input on Ancestral Mask.  I only asked because it seemed potent with curiosity and such, my friends deck actually runs two MD piracy's which I view he should remove but with the mask could be quite powerful, the idea of card disadvantage is dually noted.  Have you thought of removing the conclave for treetop village, it produces green and does more damage, it's penalty is of course the lack of true evasion, and it may be an unfetchable, overabundant source of green when all green is in for is splash, but it seems like a very potent power for this deck.
How did you like the [card]oxidize[/card] at CT?  I view'd them as weaker then null rod and one case scenarios, I don't find they work well with the general theme of fish, getting utility creatures (say [card]elvish scrapper[/card]) down instead.. However you may have a good reason for oxidize, what that inspiration is I'm not sure.

I'm starting to think what the Black splash in fish would look like, I almost have a good idea... I'll begin looking into that.

[megamanx]

great job Jacob on winning second place in the tournament, i just wanted to tell you that you where a great and very fun opponent and i didn't know where else to post it.

You could always send me a PM. Thanks, though.
-Jacob

[RoadTrippin]

Gimbles- I've been testing this a little since Saturday, and I think everyone can agree that the Oxidize slots are a little shaky. My very first inclination was to replace them with 2 Ground Seals since I feel that the slaver-dominated metagame more than merits this choice- just wanted to post that for discussion.

[Meddling Mike]

What would you play in the suggested black splash? The typical cards that get splashed for are Demonic Tutor, Yawg Will and Mind Twist. I don't think any of these is particularly powerful in the context of fish. There's nothing terribly powerful to tutor for, no powerful cards coming from the graveyard with will and mind twist just doesn't fit the deck at all. Perhaps Dark Ritual and negator? Turn one ritual followed by turn two standstill would only work to make the negator even more broken in that situation. Perhaps Hippie would fit in nicely, making him curious turns his evasion damage into a double whammy. Sinkhole could contribute to the mana denial already present in Fish. Maybe even a psychatog deserves a place in here somewhere, he would benefit from standstill as well as from fish's typical strenght of card advantage. But at this point you're basically smashing two budget decks together and hoping it creates some sort of uber-deck, which in my experience rarely pans out. Let me know what you've come up with Roadtrippin' and Gimbles

[rvs]

FishyGuy, it's kinda pro red.  They are great against Sligh/FCG.  You can kill their creatures with that 1 usually, or at least the most important ones.  Firewalker can't be burned away.  What's not to like?

I disagree, since their most important creature is Goblin Warchief.

[TheRock]

Congrats on your finish and WOW, what fun this deck is to play.  

I have played with this a little bit and I haven't liked Root Maze all that much because, as you have already said, it's so bad when going second.  Instead of running the third Stifle sideboard and the third Root Maze maindeck, I've switched the two.  Still, I can't help but wonder:  would Misdirection or Naturalize be a better overall pick than the 3rd Stifle?

Other than that, the only thing I've done was give a sideboard slot to Blue Elemental Blast for now because I've lost to Fire/Ice and REB too many times and I'm really starting to dislike playing in a mirror match where I have no answer to Landstill's and Gay Red's sideboard threats and I'm quickly in a losing proposition unless I have Boa.