[Decklist] Aggro-Combo: Another progressive step for T1

[mtg_player_2004]

This is my T1 Ravager deck, and although not the first of it's design nor the last, I hope we can get a lot of discussion going on Aggro-Combo, since FCG and Darwin Elves has become popular amongst budget players, I think it's time the well-funded expierence aggro-combo too..  Basically, it aims to win by 2nd to 3rd turn with either a huge ravager or, more likely, damage from a disciple.  Instead of using disruption maindeck, it instead has a fall back plan to go aggro, and this is why.

AggroCombo vs AggroControl can genuily win in this case because the ravager beatdown is as big as most beefy creatures, which is AggroControls biggest problem since the counters will be matching my drawing.

AggroCombo vs Combo is a tough matchup, but this decks reliability means even if key cards are countered, it should have an aggroish build to it, which puts the clock on the combo player.

AggroCombo vs Control means if you counter one of my plans, I will just fall back on another.

Usually this deck is pretty succesfull, although I would like to add red for maybe Goblin Welders and Wheel of Fortune, but haven't found the mana for it.

Creatures (16)
4 Myr Moonvessel - AKA free skullclamp target.
4 Disciple of the Vault - Normal win card.
4 Arcbound Ravager - Seconday win card/synergy.
3 Arcbound Worker - This is where the welders would go, had I a better mana base.  As it is, I can't think of anything else to put in this spot, though.

Utility (19)
4 Helm of Awakening - I play free.
4 Thoughtcast - Cheaper than Meditate in most cases, and better if I fall back to aggro.
4 Skullclamp - Great draw engine.
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Memory Jar
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Windfall
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Mana (11)
4 Dark Ritual
5 Mox
1 Grim Monolith
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus

Land (12)
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Underground Sea
2 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Vault of Whispers - Originally a LoA, possibly a potential Polluted Delta though.

Sideboard (15)
4 Duress (I'd like to MD these if I had room)
3 Defense Grid
3 Coffin Purge
3 Smother
2 Hurkyl's Recall

[firebird365]

The Helms don't fit in this deck, and in my opinion, neither do the workshops. This deck doesn't need to power out lots of artifacts first turn, it needs mana for activated abilities. Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors would work better in this case, for Skullclamp activations. Also, you need more creatures.

[factorx]

Couple things missing:

Why only one artifact land??  The reason that the deck is called ravager affinity is you play affinity for artifact dudes for virtually free, then beat the crap out of the sad looking opponent.  Frogmites and Myr Enforcers NEED to be in here, as well as some seat of the synods.

What is this decks' answer to an opponents turn one looking like "land, sol ring, null rod, go"?  If you're playin T1 at least run mana leak and/or force of will, because every smart T1 player that isnt running an artifact based deck will have at least 2 null rod in the board, and a deck like this DESPERATELY needs an answer to that.

A rather overlooked card that goes by the name of chromatic sphere is amazing in this deck.

Things I like:
The current creatures you have is good, I wouldnt remove any of them.
In your utility section, I like everything except the helms and maybe even the yawg will.  This deck will win so fast that yawg will may just slow it down more by being a card in your hand that you dont want/need.

Your mana section is nice.

In the lands, firebird is right, the workshops arent really needed here, and unless you own 4 workshops, its really a waste of proxies.  You would be amazed at what more artifact lands, and 2 more glimmervoids could do.

[Fuzzedball]

[card]Genesis Chamber[/card] and [card]Arcbound Crusher[/card] both are great in this sort of deck. Using power your Crushers come down fast and Chambers give them lots of fuel and Skullclamp food as well. With Crushers and Ravagers you run two threats that can easily get to 10/10 or bigger (EDIT: and throw their +1/+1 counters onto another creature in the event that they are killed). Hell, in my budget version (no power and with [card]Culling the Weak[/card]) i had an attacking 13/13 Crusher on turn three.

I agree that workshops don't really fit.

[Dozer]

If you're playin T1 at least run mana leak and/or force of will, because every smart T1 player that isnt running an artifact based deck will have at least 2 null rod in the board, and a deck like this DESPERATELY needs an answer to that.

You might want to reconsider this statement after browsing through the tournament results on this site. Typically, Null Rod is seen in decks like O. Stompy or Suicide as an additional means of disruption. It is not a card that "every smart T1 player" runs. Also, if you should happen to encounter Null Rods, your answer should be your sideboard. Unless you play in an environment where everybody and his brother plays Null Rods, don't maindeck an answer to a problem that is not there all the time. And don't dilute an aggro-deck like this one by incorporating counters which take away resources from your primary goal, the very one is named winning by more aggressive threats than your opponent can deal with.
This is especially true when playing with Arcbounds, which are hard to deal with by themselves.

Why only one artifact land?? The reason that the deck is called ravager affinity is you play affinity for artifact dudes for virtually free, then beat the crap out of the sad looking opponent. Frogmites and Myr Enforcers NEED to be in here, as well as some seat of the synods.

This is not an Affinity deck, it is an Arcbound-Deck. You need to realize the difference. This deck is not relying on the Affinity mechanic to crank out guys like crazy, it relies on the power of Workshops and artifact mana to do the same.

Concerning the deck, finding the Mana for Red should be easy, as you can go up to four Glimmervoids and play a mix of Volcanics and Underground Seas in the remaining slots. 4 Workshop, 4 Glimmervoid, 1 Academy should be a given, and beyond that, you can chose freely from your choice of Duals. I would also recommend Mishra's Factories (or Blinkmoth Nexus if you feel you need a flyer), since the Modular-counters can go on them and stay there, making them immune to creature kill most of the time. In case of a Wasteland, activate the Mishra and put the counters somewhere else.

The Welders are essential, IMO, since they let you make Modular counters for free. Weld an Arcbound out, distribute the counter(s), weld it back in, and back is the counter! That is too juicy an interaction to let it slip from the deck. However, you should not cut Arcbounds to fit them in, but rather the Moonvessel or the Ritual, for which I see no need, actually, since you are already massively accelerated with Workshops and artifact mana (of which I consider the Monolith too slow, btw), and commit yourself to Black where you rather should be playing Welders. I think that consistency, a Welder's prime, is more important here than additional speed.

Also, as has been suggested, the Helms do nothing but help your opponent. Lose them, and try to capitalize on the Arcbounds instead; Arcbound Crusher is great for the reason that he tramples and thus has the evasion that Ravager lacks, but he is missing from your deck. Crusher would also change the order of your win conditions; attacking with Arcbounds gets as high priority as sac'ing to Disciples. Most decks do have enourmous problems with creatures that removal does not help against, but to move the counters around and to always have a target once a modular dies, you need more creatures in the deck than you have currently.

Lastyl, I'd advise you to check out the recent tournament results on morphling.de for the Ravager-deck of Andreas Klaes, who has recently been posting good results and from which I have taken most of my suggestions, since I have seen the deck in action and believe that is very close to the optimum. However, don't let this detain you from your own thorough testing, which remains the most valid source for knowledge about your own deck.

[edit] Why the hell are you people above convinced that Workshops, of all things, do not belong in this deck? It is the best acceleration that any artifact based deck can ever play, so why not play it and substitute it with suboptimal cards like Ancient Tomb? You still have at least 8 other lands and 10 artifact mana sources to move your Skullclamp around, which should be enough by a long stretch. Look, 18 mana sources to clamp around with is even more than Standard Ravager Affinity has! Don't you think that should be sufficient? I'd advise you not to cut the Workshops. In my eyes, that would really be a stupid move. [/edit][/b]

Dozer

[Brutha]

How fast is your deck? In which turn does it kill (if the oppenent has blockers)?
I play a similar deck with ~ Turn 3,5 kill.

// Lands
    4 Glimmervoid
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    1 Tolarian Academy
    4 City of Brass
    1 Strip Mine
    1 Wasteland

// Creatures
    4 Arcbound Crusher
    4 Arcbound Ravager
    4 Arcbound Worker
    4 Disciple of the Vault
    4 Goblin Welder
    1 Gorilla Shaman

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    4 Genesis Chamber
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    4 Skullclamp
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Timetwister
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Mox Diamond
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Tinker
    1 Memory Jar

The Crusher Genesis Chamber Engine can also work if a Null Road is in play. This can kill aggro decks with a Null Road in play.

[mtg_player_2004]

After some more playtesting and reading your advice, I think the deck has taken a major developing step.  Here are the changes I made:

Creatures  -  I added more creatures and more utility creatures.  This deck is now more aggroish, but that's okay, it also has more skullclamp targets.

Utility  -  With red, Wheel of Fortune was added, which is a great card in this deck.  I also dropped the helms.


Mana / Land  -  Changed to fit in 4 Glimmervoids and accomadate red.

Sideboard  -  Changed to accomate red.

Now, before the decklist, I'd like to post some answers to your questions.

"The Helms don't fit in this deck, and in my opinion, neither do the workshops. This deck doesn't need to power out lots of artifacts first turn, it needs mana for activated abilities. Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors would work better in this case, for Skullclamp activations. Also, you need more creatures."

I have been extensivly testing the helms, and if I don't run the workshops I will put the helms back in.  Without the helms, it costs more to play skullclamp targets than it does to target them, so that is just sort of an akward comment.  I also added more creatures now.  Thanks!

"Why only one artifact land?? The reason that the deck is called ravager affinity is you play affinity for artifact dudes for virtually free, then beat the crap out of the sad looking opponent. Frogmites and Myr Enforcers NEED to be in here, as well as some seat of the synods. "

I dropped all artifact land in the current build, basically it's just too much of a target in T1.  By ravager affinity I didn't mean anything to do with affininty actually, in fact other than Thoughtcast, nothing in here has affininty.  Sorry about the misunderstanding.

"What is this decks' answer to an opponents turn one looking like "land, sol ring, null rod, go"? If you're playin T1 at least run mana leak and/or force of will, because every smart T1 player that isnt running an artifact based deck will have at least 2 null rod in the board, and a deck like this DESPERATELY needs an answer to that. "

The only decks that run null rod maindeck are fish and suicide black, one is a dead archetype and the other is overwhelmed by beatdown, after sideboard I have some answers.  I don't think this needs counters, as mentioned in the first post, my answer to the combo failing is to go aggro instead of disruption or control.

"A rather overlooked card that goes by the name of chromatic sphere is amazing in this deck. "

I actually sort of like this and tested it in the spot of Genesis chamber.  If I get a skullclamp, than this card is basically useless, it's just a cycling card better off as something else in most cases.  Without a clamp, though, it's either a good card or I wish it would turn up to be a crusher.  In the end I couldn't find room for it but I will test it in the genesis's place and crusher's place some more.  Thanks!

"Genesis Chamber and Arcbound Crusher both are great in this sort of deck. Using power your Crushers come down fast and Chambers give them lots of fuel and Skullclamp food as well. With Crushers and Ravagers you run two threats that can easily get to 10/10 or bigger (EDIT: and throw their +1/+1 counters onto another creature in the event that they are killed). Hell, in my budget version (no power and with Culling the Weak) i had an attacking 13/13 Crusher on turn three. "

I now run these, but you'd have to hold a gun to my head for me to run a Culling the Weak, even in a budget build.  Thanks!

"All of Dozer's advice"

Thanks, I appreciate that and got a lot from it, it's pretty big so I didn't want to post all of it.

"Anyone saying workshops don't belong"

I don't see how they don't, especially without helms, they are a key component in this deck and I can't find any reason to drop them.

"How fast is your deck? In which turn does it kill (if the oppenent has blockers)?"

It just depends.  If I don't get disrupted and draw a clamp early enough, I usually win by 2nd turn, although the genesis chambers sort of slow me down.  If I fall back on aggro it can take up to about 12th turn (i.e. I get no clamp or disciples out).  If I have a ravager and disciple out, it usually just takes 1-2 more turns after they're out to win.

And now, for the updated decklist...

Creatures (17)
4 Goblin Welder
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
3 Arcbound Crusher
2 Myr Moonvessel

Utility (18)
4 Thoughtcast
4 Skullclamp
3 Genesis Chamber
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Memory Jar
1 Time Walk
1 Windfall
1 Ancestral Recall

Mana (9)
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

Land (16)
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Glimmervoid
3 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard (15)
4 Duress
3 Coffin Purge
3 Smother
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

[mtg_player_2004]

Some of the stranger card choices I am considering and why:

[card]Phyrexian Processor[/card] - Remember this bad boy?  He disapeared rather quickly, never living up to his true value, but with the workshop acceleration and some quick life loss or beatdown, a 15/15 can easily speed this up quicker than a Phyrexian crusher, and since they cost the same I am starting to test replacing this (-2 crusher, +2 processor).  I'll let you know how it goes.

[card]Dark Ritual[/card] - I know I dropped this earlier, but I am beggining to draw too many lands, however I don't think I'll make this change.  If [card]Fastbond[/card] weren't green.. oh well, it still would be a dead card too much.

I also +1 Underground Sea -1 Volcanic Sea with the loss of Wheel of Fortune.

[card]Gorilla Shaman[/card] - Still gonna playtest, but the more I play this card the less I like it.  If anything, it can be a sloppy replacement for Moonvessel, but I doubt it.

Well, the main new card I like is Phyrexian Processer.  I've never had much trouble against aggro, so it's not a key factor there.  VS combo it's basically an automatic win, and almost so against control.  I want to up it to 3-4 and I think I will drop crushers and 1 gen chamber for it.

I also dropped Wheel of Fortune for Timetwister, red mana is scarce and needed to be left open after SB.

BTW, anyone who wants to watch this deck get updated with card tags can see it at EM's site, the link is http://www.essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=247864 , it basically just shows an easy way to look at the deck.

[jpmeyer]

Shaman is more of a board card to fight Goblin Welder decks with.

Ravager Affinity has a lot of the cards pretty much pre-chosen for you.  You don't need to go very far outside of Mirrodin block with the deck.

[Dozer]

And now, for the updated decklist...

Creatures (17)
4 Goblin Welder
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
3 Arcbound Crusher
2 Myr Moonvessel

Utility (18)
4 Thoughtcast
4 Skullclamp
3 Genesis Chamber
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Memory Jar
1 Time Walk
1 Windfall
1 Ancestral Recall

Mana (9)
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

Land (16)
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Glimmervoid
3 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard (15)
4 Duress
3 Coffin Purge
3 Smother
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

I have two questions about this build. Why have you ditched the Arcbound Workers? I imagine they have more merit than the Moonvessel. I know that free Clamping feels good, but you still have to invest one mana to clamp in the first place. Actually, given the aggressive nature of the deck, the Arcbound Workers add more punch. What do others think? I'm split between both, but I tend to like Workers more than the Vessel.

Also, how much do you use the Thoughtcasts? As this is definitely most uncomfortable to run into a Mana Drain with, it might speed up the deck to make two of these another two Arcbound Workers. Of course, that would mean relying on Skullclamp a little more, but given that you have accomodated Wheel of Fortune, you effectively lose one draw spell for a lot of extra punch.

Ravager Affinity has a lot of the cards pretty much pre-chosen for you.

Correct, but this is still no Affinity deck. If we keep calling it "Affinity", there'll be a lot of misconceptions about it. It's Arcbounds, dammit!

Dozer

[mogote]

Some of the stranger card choices I am considering and why:

[card]Phyrexian Processor[/card] - Remember this bad boy?  He disapeared rather quickly, never living up to his true value, but with the workshop acceleration and some quick life loss or beatdown, a 15/15 can easily speed this up quicker than a Phyrexian crusher, and since they cost the same I am starting to test replacing this (-2 crusher, +2 processor).  I'll let you know how it goes.

Phyrexian Processor was a staple in pre-Mirrodin Tinker decks in Extended. The increasing popularity of Tinker post-Mirrodin made the Processor obsolete because there was the danger of opposing Stax/ Manabelcher/ Tinker builds normally playing at least 1 copy of Mindslaver.
This era ended with the massive bannings of last december but it's an indication for T1. The rise of Slavery in T1 should be reason enough not to play Phyrexian Processor imo.

[Meddling Mike]

I'm really not sure splashing for red is a good idea with this deck, you're already stretching the mana base in ways it shouldn't be, and what's the welder really gonna do for you? Sure, it'll recur your creatures, help you mess around with other decks with welder, but splashing red for that guy and wheel? For the same reason tinker's not so broken in your deck, what are you going to tinker for exactly that's going to make it totally worhtwile? You've already got a more than adequate number of draw sevens between windfall, jar and timetwister (btw, why no timetwister?) so I really don't think wheel is a must. I also think gutting this whole skullclamp engine would be a good idea, right now it's just not looking so good, yeah, it's a fine engine, but you're contributing too many slots to it.

If I were building a list, it would look something like this:

Creatures
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Juggernaut

Random Goodness
4 Cunning Wish
4 Lightning Greaves
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk

Drawing engine
1 Timetwister
4Thoughtcast
1 Windfall
4 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral
1 Memory Jar

Mana Sources
10 SoLoMoxen Crypt Vault Monolith
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers

[mtg_player_2004]

This isn't aggro, in fact I rarely go aggro with it, I consider it more of a combo since I almost always either just win by disciple damage or 10 disciple damage and a 10/10 ravager, or a processor swinging with ravager back up.  I think as long as I run welders, and I'm able to go off soon enough, I should be safe against slaver, or processor should at least.  That card is just too cool to cut.

And as far as worker/moonvessel, I prefer moonvessel by a lot, because keeping the clamp engine going is more important than adding a few counters along the way, and I don't want to tap colored mana to spend on clamping so I'll have it to play with once I draw.

[Meddling Mike]

This isn't aggro, in fact I rarely go aggro with it, I consider it more of a combo since I almost always either just win by disciple damage or 10 disciple damage and a 10/10 ravager, or a processor swinging with ravager back up. I think as long as I run welders, and I'm able to go off soon enough, I should be safe against slaver, or processor should at least. That card is just too cool to cut.

And as far as worker/moonvessel, I prefer moonvessel by a lot, because keeping the clamp engine going is more important than adding a few counters along the way, and I don't want to tap colored mana to spend on clamping so I'll have it to play with once I draw.

Well, this may not have quite occured to you just yet as you have not played vs anything with it yet, but a 10/10 ravager can be chump blocked by their gorilla shaman. I really think if you want to build a deck of this nature, it would be better to have it be aggro, and then have the combo to finish the job, take some chunks out of his life total with an early juggernaut/myr enforcer, than drop disciple/ravager and sac everything to finish the job. Also, by cutting red your mana base becomes alot less janky while driving up your artifact count. I also managed to add some nice utility cards like cunning wish.

[Fuzzedball]

Dont forget you can throw the ten power elsewhere.

[Meddling Mike]

Dont forget you can throw the ten power elsewhere.

Yes, I'd noticed that as well, but you'll also notice that his deck only runs guys that can bear the ten power, two of which aren't designed to stay on the board for very long. It's also not unreasonable to think that your opponent can come up with 1 way to deal with a creature, so if you do try and move the counters to get the damage through, a well placed swords to plowshares, shattering pulse, oxidize or rack and ruin will wreck the investment you've made into your ravager.

[snachos]

Personally I disagree with how Meddling Mage built his version.  I don't believe Cunning Wish and Lightning Greaves deserve spots in this deck.  I took mtg_player_2004's decklist and:

    -2 Myr Moonvessel
    -4 Goblin Welder
    -1 Wheel of fortune

    +4 Arcbound Worker
    +1 Vampiric Tutor
    +1 Timetwister
    +1 Arcbound Crusher

And I adjusted the mana base accordingly to get:

4 arcbound ravager
4 disciple of the vault
4 arcbound crusher
4 skullclamp
4 thoughtcast
4 arcbound worker
3 genesis chamber
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Windfall
1 Ancestral Recall
1 memory jar
7 Solomoxen
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
4 mishra's workshop
4 glimmerviod
3 polluted delta
4 underground sea
1 tolarian academy

I took out the welders because in testing they weren't that amazing.  I didn't have Thirst for Knowledge in the deck, nor am I TNT running Survival to get things in the grave so they could not be used as acceleration.  Granted, you can do some neat tricks with them but I don't think they are necesary.  Since the welders went it only made sense to take out the Wheel of Fortune because it is the only red card left.  Timetwister replaces Wheel quite nicely.  Myr Moonvessel came out for Arcbound Workers because the extra counters are worth it.

[mtg_player_2004]

My answer to StPs: sacrifice the creature or weld it.

Yes, I have played this against other decks.

What do you think of Tendrils of Agony in this deck?

There's an edit button for a reason. Use it and do NOT double post in the future.

-Vegeta2711

[Dozer]

What do you think of Tendrils of Agony in this deck?

Not worth it. You are not going to get ten spells so early that it is going to matter. If this were Affinity, maybe. Alas, even with the Skullclamps going off, you still will not be able to generate ten spells faster than you can beat down with Ravager or go for a Disciple kill, so Tendrils is taking up a lot of space which is unwarranted for an unlikely effect. If you Tendrils your opponent, you want him to die. If you already have them down to 12 or 10 or something, instead of investing double black (which can be a strain), just attack him once more. I think the deck does not need an "extra" layer of combo. It should be fast enough as it is...

...unless you build it the way Meddling Mage proposes, with which I have major issues. Setting aside the fact that it is rude (in my opinion) to disrupt another player's thread with such a different decklist (*), I will comment  on it and Meddling Mage's later comments anyway before getting back to mtg_player_2004's decklist.

but a 10/10 ravager can be chump blocked by their gorilla shaman.

An Arcbound Crusher, however, cannot. That is the major reason for the trampling Arcbound to be in most lists, but you omit it and even substitute it with Juggernaut, which is wrong, in my opinion. Juggernaut may have a place in this deck, fulfilling the old TnT-role of an early, fast attacker. Despite this quality, though, it displays an extreme lack of synergy with the rest of the deck aside from being an artifact, which on its own is not a qualifying feature. If you can fit it in after making room for all three Arcbounds (Ravager, Crusher, Worker), kudos to you. But you don't.

Also, the decklist shows some utility which is definitely misplaced. Neither Lightning Greaves nor Cunning Wish add anything to the deck that it needs. Lightning Greaves in particular is overrated in any fast deck like this one. For the Greaves to have an impact, they have to come down early, because obviously they are supposed to protect your first onslaught. Alas, by spending two mana early for this, you usually lose a whole turn because you have spent your mana without applying any pressure. Sure, if a creature on the offense gets removed, you also lose some speed. But remember that a clever opponent will do so even with Greaves in play, simply by targeting your creature with removal in response to your activation of Equip. So, you will not only have lost a creature, but also spent resources you could otherwise have used to rebuild and commence your offence.

For the midgame, this deck does not need Greaves, since it plans not to go there anyway. Disciples don't need protection since you can sac artifacts at instant speed with the Ravager, triggering the Disciple every time and making the life-loss go an the stack oblivious to any removal.

Likewise, Cunning Wish is a bad choice, especially since Meddling Mage does not provide a sideboard, which would have given us faithful readers an insight on how he had intended to use said Wishes. I for one cannot imagine anything that helps an offense short of Berserk, which he most probably did not have in mind. Utility is worthless if you have a deck that does not need this utility to achieve its goal. Control decks like Keeper need it for flexibility, Hulk needs it for controlling specific situations and plain out winning. Ravager on the other hand gets no benefit for their speed game from the inevitably clumsy and slow Cunning Wish.

I also think gutting this whole skullclamp engine would be a good idea, right now it's just not looking so good, yeah, it's a fine engine, but you're contributing too many slots to it.

Have you ever played with Skullclamp yet? I mean, I see why it has no merit in your deck, because you have no targets for it. Once you combine it with creatures that generate a benefit when going to the graveyard (or simply are small enough to get Clamped to good avail, both of which are none in your build), Skullclamp becomes an insane draw engine any opponent has to deal with. This is the most effective tool to turn a midgame back into a full pressure attack situation, since you should be drawing at least two cards a turn. Devoting four slots to it is fair enough. The creatures to be clamped I don't count towards those slots, since they also have an aggro role to fill. Genesis Chamber may count as an additional three slots for the engine, since generating Clamp fodder is its main use, but as the Myr tokens can also be sac'ed to the Ravager, effectively making every Ravager a 2/2 for 2, I go along with it. Also, drawing two cards a turn for one mana without actually using a creature you spent resources on (other than the inital Genesis Chamber investment) is gravy. If Skullclamp's merits are not appearent yet, I can't help it either...

So, getting the curve back to mtg_player_2004's list, this is actually why I prefer Arcbound Workers over Myr Moonvessels: The Workers don't lose you tempo. You play them, clamp them, and do not lose the 1 power they provide, which is different from Moonvessel. The Vessel does nothing but being a Clamp Target without any additional benefits.
The Vessel means 1 mana for two cards, the Workers mean 2 mana for two cards and one additional point of power. Given the amount of mana you play, the one-mana difference is negligible, the one power is not, since it means your other creature is becoming harder to block (which is important early). Both have their merits, and I can understand prefering Moonvessel to Worker, but I personally do not. (Both would be best...)

The Goblin Welder becomes important at this point as well. You do not play this deck in a vacuum, and and Arcbound.dec has plenty of the most fragile card type there is in Magic: Artifact Creatures. Welders are essential if your opponent manages to survive the early game. Much like Skullclamp, they are more of a mid-game card and help you to apply pressure continuosly. Also, they tie up resources your opponent would otherwise use differently; Welders almost always draw the most creature kill (and rightly so), thus doubly protecting your Arcbounds: First by being able to bring them back, and second by drawing creature kill that cannot disrupt your (hopefully) ongoing offensive anymore. Additionally they deal with pesky stuff like Damping Matrix, Mindslaver, Smokestack, Trinisphere and Platinum Angel, if necessary. They are a mid-game insurance. If you play in a meta where you are likely to beat a majority of the field before reaching that critical point where your offense is stalled, you can cut the Welders. That would be, IMO, in a field full of aggro and combo decks, as usually only control decks will be able to drag the game long.

Keep in mind, though, that Welders will also return Skulcllamp fodder and the Clamp itself, which is why I'd keep them in the deck against almost any given deck, maybe apart from pure combo. I must admit at this point that I know of no effort to thorougly test the deck without Welders, nor have I done so myself, so if you can provide better data, please do tell. In that vein, I like snachos' build, who seems to have valid arguments against Welders. I'd like to know, though, against which decks the Welders were "not necessary", since their usefulness will be dependent on the match-ups, as I indicated above. Maybe they are a possible sideboard choice?

This is getting longwinded, and I don't have proper testing results myself to present here, so I'm cutting it out for now. One quick word to cap this of: A three-color build, i.e. with Welders, is not a strain on the mana base, since Glimmervoids help enourmously with color issues, and the remaining lands can be any mix of U-Duals and respective fetchlands.

Also, has anyone considered Shrapnel Blast? This idea gets tossed back and forth in Team CAB's discussions, but remains undecided as yet. What do you think?

So long,

Dozer


(*) How to deal with such a situation: Take your differing decklist, and test both versions thorougly. Then, when you have valid data, that is more than only goldfish tests and at least a 10-games test against a proper gauntlet, post these results and explain why your version is better or whatever you may have found.

[Plainswalker]

Dozer actually hit upon everything I wanted to say, glad I read that before I started. I couldn't help, but say this though about the deck Meddling Mage posted: You have a deck with both blue, artifacts and Memory Jar, yet no Tinker, please explain?

Anyways JP is correct, I think a good thing a lot of people could do is go and make up a T2 Ravage Affinity deck and try playing it VS some major T1 decks. Find out what's good and whats bad (obviously rolling over to null rod) and then work from there. Instead of working from a T1 deck up, I believe we should try working from a T2 deck down...blasphemy I know  :shock:

[mrieff]

Decklist deleted. Please don't clog up threads like this.
-Jacob

 The only new additions are 3 Tangle Wire main, to provide some much needed disruption. They dont annoy you that much because of the high permanent count.

[InsaneScrub]

Decklist deleted. Please don't clog up threads like this.
-Jacob

[bebe]

Just to add to the Welder debate ... If you plan on playing against Slaver and other Workshop decks you had better include them. They benefit your deck and help control your opponent's deck. This is Ravanger's weakness and Welders are needed to shore it up.

[cssamerican]

bebe...I am not sure how the Goblin Welder will help in these match-ups at all. Against prison if they lay a Trinisphere before your turn your in trouble. I can't see how having Goblin Welder hitting play turn 3 is going to help you. And even if you go first and play a Welder your opponent still has to have an artifact in his graveyard for you to weld Trinisphere out of play with. And against Slaver...they weld in Mindslaver...in response you weld it out...in response they sacrifice it, take your turn, and probably wiping your board out. Trust me when I say this (I have been working on by own Ravager deck, so I feel I am talking with some experience) Goblin Welder is less than ideal for this type of deck. There are better answers to deal with the problems you are referring to.

For Slaver Tormod's Crypt is awesome because it fights against the Mindslaver, and it adds to your artifact count if you are playing with affinity creatures (I highly recommend playing with some Affinity creatures). If that is not enough there are other options that you can use such as Coffin Purge.

Against other artifact decks [card]Emissary of Despair[/card] is quit a dangerous threat to side in. Who cares about welding out that Trinisphere when you can be doing what your supposed to be doing...Smashing his face in.

I am not going to post the list I have been working on because I don't want to Hijack the thread, or have a moderater bleed red on my post:) However, I do think most of the decks I have seen posted here on themanadrain are relying too much on what has been done in standard or in past Type 1 artifact decks. Standard is a different game, and this isn't like any other artifact deck. The closest cousin is a Madness deck on crack...at least that my opinion of it.

[mtg_player_2004]

I still like Moonvessels more than Arcbounds by a lot, simply because when I am going off, I need to keep my colored mana, and they let me do so.  I don't think there's any possible way I could fit both of them into the deck at once, though.  You're right, it is a tempo loss, and when I draw no creatures or drawing spells from it, I'm sort of screwed by it, but at least then I cycled through 2 meaningless cards.

Combo: This is where I need to work on the most, I think Planar Voids should be playtested some more, but the Tangle wires are great, but probably not MD worthy yet.
Aggro: This is an easy matchup and I'm not worried about it.
Control: I think I also did generally well, a lot better than I expected, in here too.  I probably need another sideboard card against null rods.

The updated decklist..

Creatures (16)
4 [card]Disciple of the Vault[/card]
4 [card]Arcbound Ravager[/card]
3 [card]Goblin Welder[/card]
3 [card]Myr Moonvessel[/card]
2 [card]Phyrexian Processor[/card]

Utility (18)
4 [card]Skullclamp[/card]
3 [card]Thoughtcast[/card]
3 [card]Genesis Chamber[/card]
1 [card]Timetwister[/card]
1 [card]Tinker[/card]
1 [card]Demonic Tutor[/card]
1 [card]Wheel of Fortune[/card]
1 [card]Memory Jar[/card]
1 [card]Time Walk[/card]
1 [card]Windfall[/card]
1 [card]Ancestral Recall[/card]

Artifact Mana (10)
1 [card]Mox Sapphire[/card]
1 [card]Mox Pearl[/card]
1 [card]Mox Jet[/card]
1 [card]Mox Emerald[/card]
1 [card]Mox Ruby[/card]
1 [card]Black Lotus[/card]
1 [card]Sol Ring[/card]
1 [card]Mana Vault[/card]
1 [card]Grim Monolith[/card]
1 [card]Mana Crypt[/card]

Land (16)
4 [card]Mishras Workshop[/card]
4 [card]Glimmervoid[/card]
3 [card]Underground Sea[/card]
2 [card]Volcanic Island[/card]
2 [card]Polluted Delta[/card]
1 [card]Tolarian Academy[/card]

Sideboard (15)
4 [card]Tangle Wire[/card]
3 [card]Coffin Purge[/card]
2 [card]Smother[/card]
2 [card]Shatter[/card]
2 [card]Red Elemental Blast[/card]
1 [card]Pyroblast[/card]
1 [card]Goblin Welder[/card]

Latest concerns for the deck:

Is Planar Void better than Coffin Purge?

Are 2 smothers enough?  I only now SB them vs welders, dryads, shamans or togs, vs aggro I don't need them, but not having 3 may hurt against dryad/tog decks.

Should Tangle Wire or Mindslaver be considered for maindeck?  It slows this down but helps against the decks I have trouble most against in some cases, but sort of hurts against the matches I already easily have (aggro and non-tog control), and significantly slows my combo down.

Are 3 welders enough MD?  So far I like  but there are a few cases where I like 4.  I almost always SB it in just to get away from artifact hate or hate on other artifacts, vs almost all decks.


On another note, next Saturday I'll be taking this to McClair's Card Shop (unlimited proxies), so I will let you know how it goes.