Moxen or Moxes

[Matt]

As has been discussed before, it's not us who make that mistake. Our country is simply called 'Nederland', which translates as 'Netherland' in English, which for some unfathomable reason became 'THE NetherlandS'. It's not like there's more of us, yo.

On a semi-related note, does anyone know exactly when we started referring to the USA as a singular? We used to say "The Unites States are at war with the Barbary Coast" but now we say "The United States is at war with Iraq."

I think it was around the Civil War but I'm not sure.

[Jacob Orlove]

On a semi-related note, does anyone know exactly when we started referring to the USA as a singular? We used to say "The Unites States are at war with the Barbary Coast" but now we say "The United States is at war with Iraq."

I think it was around the Civil War but I'm not sure.

Yeah, it switched at the end of the Civil War.

[Joel Rojo]

In spanish the translation to Netherlands is "Paises Bajos", which means pretty much that. I won't speak for the english language, but for what I know about mine, and it since the literal translation is Paises Bajos = Netherlands I make a guess that it applies anyway.

So, Paises Bajos means lower lands (which is obv, the intended meaning of Netherlands), lower in the sense that a huge portion of dutchieland is below sea level, the plural of it meaning that Paises Bajos is formed (was?) by more than one country (the literal translation of Paises would be countries), even so, we use Paises Bajos and Holanda (Holland) in the same way you refer to the United Kingdom and England.

If so, the use of Netherlands would be rather inaccurate, more than wrong, as it is used often to refer to a single country, rather than a group of countries that form a society or kingdom or whatever it is/was, the same way  that a group of countries, including England, make the United Kingdom.

[TracerBullet]

I think of the Netherlands much like I think of the nether regions...


Henceforth, all Dutchie lands shall be known as ass-lands, and all Dutchies shall be known as assies.

[dandan]

Oxford and Cambridge English books both disagree with you about
'He is taller than me'
Personally 'English Grammar' by Murphy is my 'bible' and that also allows it. It is no more wrong than 'Me too', saying 'I too' would make you sound like an idiot however gramatically correct.

I await the word of our resident language god Azhrei.

Strunk and White's "The Elements of Style" disagrees with your english books. That means your books are wrong.

First off, my books talk about the English language with a capital 'E'. This gives them a clear head start. Second there are a huge number of excellent English books that are out of date, their time 'hath cometh'. What was once correct is now merely gramatically correct but has been replaced by what is logically incorrect but is what is actually used. Would you teach someone to say 'I, too'? rather than 'Me, too'? (for the record I used to teach students that 'He is taller than I' is gramatically correct but rarely used and that 'normal' English uses 'He is taller than me', anally-retentive students were allowed to use 'He is taller than I am')

Have a look in those English books of yours under 'Shall'? Does that look like the language you are using? Listen to Homeward Bound. You don't actually need an English language related reason to do this but in fact you have one. Listen to see (isn't English a great and logical language?) if they say (sing) "I wish I were..." or "I wish I was...". Now listen again. Now watch Star Trek. Again no additional reason is needed but you have one. Yes, 'To boldly go' presumably into uncharted grammatical regions. Frankly Strunk and White have less impact on spoken English than Captain Kirk and Simon and Garfunkel.

Regarding the good old US of A, there are a number of collective nouns that could be used as singular or plurals (the army for example) and I think you need to use context and common sense to decide if you are talking about a number of States or a single country ('The United States of America include Hawai' 'The USA is the richest country in the world').

Just for the record King Canute got wet to show that progress cannot be stopped, not because he was convinced that he was all powerful. He was damned right. 50 years from now people will be taught 'Did you see that film?' in English classes (I suspect many will be taught 'Did you see that film yet?'). Like Betamax vs VHS, being correct is not the be all and end all, being used is.

[Matt]

Regarding the good old US of A, there are a number of collective nouns that could be used as singular or plurals (the army for example) and I think you need to use context and common sense to decide if you are talking about a number of States or a single country ('The United States of America include Hawai' 'The USA is the richest country in the world').

The question was in light of the fact that it used to ALWAYS be referred to in the plural.

I started reading that Made In America book. It's hilarious, especially the parts about how many of the first settlers died.

[Bram]

I started reading that Made In America book. It's hilarious, especially the parts about how many of the first settlers died.

Glad to see my word counts for something Yeah, that bit is kinda good. In the first few chapters you sometimes need to struggle through (especially the 'lists of examples' can be somewhat boring when he doesn't really explore the reasoning behind the words) but it gets better in terms of anecdotes in later chapters.

[dandan]

Is Made in America available online? Much as I like good old paper I suspect that the local library and bookshops haven't got it (I also strongly suspect that a Slovak translation of it would be a waste of time).

Re-reading some of the above posts, someone who isn't used to me might assume I am 100% serious about English grammar despite the liberal sprinkling of jokes about altitude-challenged people (I am referring to countries that either don't have sarcasm or don't recognise it - people who don't understand why that great example of Anglo-French cooperation the London-Paris rail link ends at Waterloo). I have been known to provoke in the past and I do find the idea of an American defending the 'correct' use of English mildly amusing.

P.S. I apologise for the use of the words America/Americans in this and in any of my other posts that refer to people from the US. I understand that it must annoy Canadians but Yanks is not very polite and might offend people from parts of the USA who used to shoot at Yanks because of a civil war rather than the current sitaution where it is unnecessary to have a civil war (how many gun-related deaths do you non-Canadian Americans have a year?).

Special prize for English clarity - English public schools (private schools)
(it would be Bombay Duck if anyone knew what it was/were)

Edit - spelling is tech

[Bram]

I don't believe it's available as an e-book, no.

If the library has other books available by the same author, I would suggest all of them. Bill Bryson is an American who has moved to England with his wife after being captured by the charm of Europe. He's lived there for some twenty odd years now which, combined with his singular wit, provides for an interesting perspective on the two cultures. He moslty writes about his travels, but sometimes (as it the case with 'Made In America') he analyses linguistics. Other highly recommended reads by the same author:

- 'The Mother Tongue' (on the evolution of the English language in the UK)

- 'Neither Here Nor There: Travels in Europe' (by far the funniest travel account I have ever read, and ranking high in my personal 'funniest books evar' list).

[EDIT] the PalmOne store has some e-books by his hand over here.

Amongst others the classic 'Bryson's Dictionary of Troublesome Words'.
From the review:

As usual Bill Bryson says it best: "English is a dazzlingly idiosyncratic tongue, full of quirks and irregularities that often seem willfully at odds with logic and common sense. This is a language where 'cleave' can mean to cut in half or to hold two halves together; where the simple word 'set' has 126 different meanings as a verb, 58 as a noun, and 10 as a participial adjective; where if you can run fast you are moving swiftly, but if you are stuck fast you are not moving at all; [and] where 'colonel,' 'freight,' 'once,' and 'ache' are strikingly at odds with their spellings." (...) this precise, prescriptive, and—because it is written by Bill Bryson—often witty book belongs on the desk of every person who cares enough about the language not to maul or misuse or distort it.

[dandan]

I can't see what is wrong with the spelling of ache, it has a logical strongly-pronounced 'a' because of the 'e'ending and a 'ch' sound that is one of the acceptable variants (scottish 'ch' as in loch, coincidently the Slovak pronunciation of 'ch' except Slovak treats 'ch' as a separate letter and puts it between H and I). I think that 95% of English words are actually pronounced as written assuming you know a few simple rules of English pronunciation. People get so hung up on the exceptions that they ignore the majority. In addition, there are so many accents that even if you do mispronounce something it will probably sound correct to someone.

Thank your lucky stars that there was never a Welsh Empire!!

[leviat]

But the word 'ache' should be spelled ake or we should probably pronounce the word 'achieve' similarly so this language makes some sense.

[Bram]

That's exaclty wat mr. Bryson meant. Thank you for that bit of common sense :)

I agree with DanDan on the 'me too' / 'I too' bit however. English is not a dead language like Latin with a fixed set of rules. It is possibly one of the most vibrant languages on the world so archaic notions of what is and what is not correct do not really apply in the long term. Sure, 'I too' may be the only corect way to do it now, bit in a couple of decades all this may have changed.

'You is / Ye are' became 'You is / You are' became 'You are / You are'. Note that ALL of these were correct grammar at some point.

[Matt]

P.S. I apologise for the use of the words America/Americans in this and in any of my other posts that refer to people from the US. I understand that it must annoy Canadians but Yanks is not very polite and might offend people from parts of the USA who used to shoot at Yanks because of a civil war rather than the current sitaution where it is unnecessary to have a civil war (how many gun-related deaths do you non-Canadian Americans have a year?).

Interestingly enough, according to that book, the term 'American' was originally used to refer to people from South America only.

Also, I remember borrowing The Mother Tongue book from one of my high school teachers like six years ago...weird!

[Cuandoman]

"He is taller than I am" ---> "He is taller than I"

It's really just an abbreviation of sorts.

If the word getting used in common practice changes the language, what about "ain't" and "ya'll" ?

Just because its understandable doesn't mean it's correct, no matter how long it gets used. For example, "He be talluh den me"

Just some stuff to chew on.

[Ric_Flair]

Strunk and White's "The Elements of Style" disagrees with your english books. That means your books are wrong.

Strunk and White trump everyone, even GOD.

[Matt]

If the word getting used in common practice changes the language, what about "ain't" and "ya'll" ?

According (again) to Made In America, there was a time when such contractions would have become the norm (it was in a passage about why the contraction of 'will not' is 'won't') but for one reason or another they didn't. It was during a period when modern English was still breaking from the middle/old English (I forget which).

[dandan]

"He is taller than I am" ---> "He is taller than I"

It's really just an abbreviation of sorts.

If the word getting used in common practice changes the language, what about "ain't" and "ya'll" ?

Just because its understandable doesn't mean it's correct, no matter how long it gets used. For example, "He be talluh den me"

Just some stuff to chew on.

I suspect that the sort of people who use these expressions don't actually write a lot (possibly due to excessive amounts of fingers from inbreeding or acceptance in universities based on basketball skills) and so it is irrelevant to discuss their written form. The Geordie version of English is also poorly documented, probably due to frostbite from wearing shorts and a Newcastle T-shirt outside in January whilst drinking a Newcastle Brown.

You should understand and accept that more people speak English as a second language than as a mother language and so certain 'modifications' will inevitably appear, the decline of Present Perfect (especially in the USA) is a good example. My viewpoint is that of someone who has tried to teach the language to people who want to use it to communicate, I suspect that some people lose sight of why we have languages and concentrate on using to words to show how clever they are (ditto for deck construction). I too am guilty of this, being a fanatic used of the words 'whilst' and 'amongst'. I also see a lot of archaic English language books (the Commies pretty much banned foreign languages apart from Russian) and trust me, the language has changed a lot over the last 100 years or so.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Oh man, I tried to read Moby Dick (mid-1800s), and my brain asploded because the language was so awkward. (Then I gave up because it was still boooooring 150 pages in, but that's a separate issue.) I just wonder if the internet is going to finally make language more consistent and lower the mutation rate, or just the opposite.

[Bram]

1. Moby Dick is an awesome book, you culture barbarian :-)

2.

Also, I remember borrowing The Mother Tongue book from one of my high school teachers like six years ago...weird!

This is just more proof that, really, we're the same person.

3.

Just because its understandable doesn't mean it's correct, no matter how long it gets used. For example, "He be talluh den me"

That's just not true. While it's obviously true that it's grammatically incorrect NOW, you don't really know about the long term. Like my example illustrated, several things which were 'right' in the past are 'wrong' now and the other way around. Why asssume that the English lanuage stopped evolvong by the time you were born? Every generation believes itself to be the culmination of history, and every generation is wrong.

3.

I too am guilty of this, being a fanatic used of the words 'whilst' and 'amongst'

Truly, as am I, muthafuckah.

[Matt]

Every generation believes itself to be the culmination of history, and every generations is wrong.

But not as wrong as that sentence. ;D

[Bram]

eh? What's wrong with it except the -s in the second 'generations' then?

[Matt]

Well, nothing. But the 's' makes it wrong.

[dandan]

Correcting a non-native English speaker's grammar is a bit mean. The clog-wearers can't even get the plural right in the Netherlands and spell the 'th' with a d so it is harsh to expect them to write well in English, especially advanced concepts like the second 'o' in American 'loose' meaning 'lose'.

[TracerBullet]

Yah, we really gots da skillz...

[Bram]

Bleh. That was a plain and simple typo. I was hoping Matt's comment would actually be educational :-P

As it stands, I still believe my command of the English language is right up there with most native English-speakers on the site (and strictly better than some o' thems as well ;-)

[dandan]

It depends on whether or not you count the Yanks as native speakers...

[Dozer]

Oh man, I tried to read Moby Dick (mid-1800s), and my brain asploded because the language was so awkward. (Then I gave up because it was still boooooring 150 pages in, but that's a separate issue.)

Moby Dick is exquisite and mightily good on yer language skill! Seriously, I love the book on so many levels: a) the language, b) it is a contemporary account of knowledge on whaling, c) the mixture between the story and the science, d) the clear-cut characters and their presentation, e) the mixture of writing styles and f) because it has a gripping story (albeit not told as one would do today).

"Albeit", now there's a word... oh wait, "asplode"?

Anyway, it's Holland all the way. And what do we care if the Holländers always confuse "Meer" and "See"? (Do they even have an "ä"? Do you, Bräm?) I would expect such confusion among the people from the monarchy where an extra color is added to the flag on royal occasions... Thank the higher being, whichever it may be, that we god rid of our last Emperor. In case you did not know, he went to exile in Holland, honed his madness further and died. Welcome to the land that is below sea-level all the way.

Dozer


(Thank god the Dutchies don't know that I have Dutch ancestors, was born in Ostfriesland and my godfather emigrated to Holland a long time ago...)

[dandan]

Hell is a place where you rely on Germans for humour

[Bram]

It's humor, you wannabe Briton :-)

Do they even have an "ä"?

Nope. We the Dutch infinitely prefer two large balls on our person to two tiny ones on our vowels.

Thank the higher being, whichever it may be, that we god rid of our last Emperor.

I seem to recall the Allied forces and the Russian army getting rid of your last Emperor :-P

[dandan]

It is actually 'humour' in the English language. The fact that a few ex-colonials are all 'me me me' and don't care about 'u' doesn't mean I should start polluting the internet with poor spelling (alas there are far more able souls out there).

Since when has Kaervek been spelt B-R-A-M?

WWII joke of the week - the Dutch are a bunch of Fokkers