What impact will Crucible of Worlds have on the metagame?

[Purple Hat]

It seems that Crucible of Worlds is just awful in T2/Block, but is truly the premere T1 Card from Mirroden Block. It is the poster boy of T1 from the Mirroden Block. End Edit)

What about Sundering Titan?  It seems much more like the "poster boy" for the set in type one.  And it's not likely to destroy the metagame either.

[Marton]

I don't think the card will be restricted. There are a few cards that I would give the nod over crucible if I were to find restriction targets. I believe the card is comparable to chalice of the void. While chalice cannot be put into any deck the same way that crucible can, both are distorting. I recall tournaments banning chalice of the void when it came out so much that people hated it. Decks have adapted (this was the final blow to sligh), and today it's just another good card. I believe the same will happen to crucible, considering the many possible strategies that exists to avoid the crucible lock. Of course, what I am saying is that it is format distorting, but then again the `format-distorting-ness` of a card shouldn't guide restrictions. Just look at mana drain. Every *other* deck has to consider avoiding big spells just because of mana drains. Chalice has a bit of a similar effect but to a much lesser extent.

[goober]

Just look at mana drain. Every *other* deck has to consider avoiding big spells just because of mana drains.

That is doable, Crucible requires everyone to avoid playing lands, which isn't.  Chalice is also not comparable, because it isn't nearly as useful.  It is a far weaker card than Crucible, and doesn't allow for random wins as often.  It requires your deck to be at least somewhat based around it, where Crucible + 5 Strips is 8-9 cards that can (and are almost required to) go in every deck.  Mana Drain also has a huge restriction on the deck using it.  It needs to be a control deck capable of getting UU online early.  The only playable card able to get it online first turn is Sapphire.  Then the deck also needs sinks available.  The color restriction shapes the deck required for it, where Crucible is all colorless, even the lands it is used with.

I vote for restriction.

[Marton]

Well there's many possible answers.

-1/2 basic lands and 3+ fetchlands.
-graveyard hate
-blood moon
-artifact removal
-re-adjusting the mana curve of your deck (at the cost of making you more vulnerable to chalice of the void)
-darksteel citadel
-annul
-chain of vapor + force (ok thats not viable in every deck)
-crucible
-crop rotation (both good with crucible and against it. Use it to save one land or fetch a darksteel citadel/fetchland (wow, fetch a fetchland lol))

-karmic justice/sacred ground (unfortunately they almost require you to play with moxes to play them)

[SpencerForHire]

Crucible is effectively a win for two reasons: it completely guards your manabase until it's destroyed.  (And combined with fetches it's even worse.)  And destroys your opponents base with strips.  The ability of it to single handedly tip the scale completely over and on to it's side has to mean something.  The good thing is the one land per turn makes it mean more in control matches then in combo matches in such.  Sure it can affect any, but it is more likely to really mean the difference in a game with two control decks.

The most recent example I can give is actually far sadder.
I was playing against suicide.
I was playing FCG.
I didn't get the combo like I had hoped (1 piece off) and so I started aggroing him and was doing a fair job.  Then a crucible dropped and I had no lands and 1 emerald which was null rod'd slightly afterwords.  All in all the creatures I had been reduced to thanks to manlands made me rather, unhappy and I rolled over and died.

On the other side of the spectrum.. It's nothing that requires restriction, the card itself is nothing huge and only when combined with the other "right cards" can it truly mean the end in any matchup.  If you can't beat it join it.  But I find that all decks that would join to beat it already should have a copy in their deck because it improves the strength significantly.

Vote: yes

[Covetous]

I certainly agree that the crucible is extremely powerful, from fetchland recursion to negating land D to strip recursion to silly fastbond combos.  However, I also think that it's less likely to get the axe than wasteland.  How good would crucible be if decks could only pack one waste and one strip???  Even with a crop rotation that's only 3 strips.  I will not be shocked if wasteland gets restricted soon, at least before crucible.  It's already a very good card and strip is already restricted--waste is almost as strong as strip.  Workshop could be restricted again, but I sure hope not--it's not used in the most offensive crucible decks.  Crucible could possibly put a damper on Fish's plans for world domination, but then again, Fish could simply run more MD answers to crucible (annul anyone?).  Sacred Ground/Karmic Justice might make their way into keeper/4cC SB's as one or two-of's, but I would say that crucible itself is, as JP suggested, the best answer to crucible.

[Vegeta2711]

The most recent example I can give is actually far sadder.
I was playing against suicide.
I was playing FCG.
I didn't get the combo like I had hoped (1 piece off) and so I started aggroing him and was doing a fair job. Then a crucible dropped and I had no lands and 1 emerald which was null rod'd slightly afterwords. All in all the creatures I had been reduced to thanks to manlands made me rather, unhappy and I rolled over and died.

So wait, your pissed becuase you decided to lose for not fetching basics?

In all seriousness though, you guys dealt with Titan + 3sphere thus far and Blood Moon based decks. Just throw in one more two/three card set-up that creates a near impossible to win board state and deal.

[SpencerForHire]

So wait, your pissed becuase you decided to lose for not fetching basics?

Nonono, don't get me wrong, I know what I am doing for the most point.
In all actuality it was a game where I started with Emerald, Taiga, and some other goodies, when he plops down a first turn [card]Stripmine[/card] there isn't much I can do.
Second turn went something like: dark ritual, crucible, go.

[rozetta]

I voted for yes, it is distorting, for the same reasons as Smmenen. It's something that will shake up the metagame, but it requires rather simple measures to avoid. Like chalice, the hype will likely die away, but people will have the card in mind when building a deck from now on.

I also agree that if something needs the axe because of Crucible, it should be wasteland. After all, random wins almost always come from the person who drew the most wastes, crucible or not.

Hmmm. Remember Type 2 and Zuran Orb?

[Marton]

I for one don't think that restricting wasteland would be a good idea. The problem would be that tolarian academy, workshop and bazaar would be even better than they are now.

EDIT:
As someone else pointed out, it would also make library of alexandria and man-lands very, very hard to deal with.

[lilmidget]

I for one don't think that restricting wasteland would be a good idea. The problem would be that tolarian academy, workshop and bazaar would be even better than they are now.

I agree, if something had to be restricted, Crucible would probably be the best choice. Other than Workshop builds, most other decks only play 1 anyway.

[Sagath]

Workshop and Bazaar are beatable without 5 strip effects. Dragon is pritty much hated on hardcore, and hasnt seen alot of success lately. Workshops have been a problem lately, but are still beatable.  I for one would personally rather restrict Wasteland and open the game up. It is that or leave cruicble with 5 strip effects, and shut out or change 6+ decks in the format. Whats better for the game? Easy decision if you ask me.
Too many games in T1 have I seen decided by one guy drawing 3 out of 5 strip effects on lucky topdecks. Crucible just makes this that much worse.

OTOH, maybe the future meta (by that I mean future sets released) is finally warranting (and I hate to suggest it) the consideration of the restriction of Workshop?  I hope not, but if WOTC keeps making dumb Workshop cards....

Temporary solution would be to restrict COW, and keep the meta open, but I seriously think they should put Workshop on the watch list.


Vote: yes.
Restrict: Yes.


Actualy speaking of the watch list, what the hell ever happened to the it? They had it years back, but I havnt seen it in...forever.

[Jacob Orlove]

I for one would personally rather restrict Wasteland and open the game up. It is that or leave cruicble with 5 strip effects, and shut out or change 6+ decks in the format. Whats better for the game? Easy decision if you ask me.

Actually, that IS an easy decision. Those 6+ decks will have to adapt or die. That's how magic works. Crucible is letting decks win games against unprepared opponents. That's what every good card and deck in T1 has done in its first few weeks and months. Everything appears much stronger than it really is before people adapt and deal with it--just look at Workshops, Dragon, Rector, and so on. Each time a new deck or card starts doing well, people immediately call for restrictions, instead of just PLAYTESTING and learning to beat it.

[Shock Wave]

I for one would personally rather restrict Wasteland and open the game up. It is that or leave cruicble with 5 strip effects, and shut out or change 6+ decks in the format. Whats better for the game? Easy decision if you ask me.

Actually, that IS an easy decision. Those 6+ decks will have to adapt or die. That's how magic works. Crucible is letting decks win games against unprepared opponents. That's what every good card and deck in T1 has done in its first few weeks and months. Everything appears much stronger than it really is before people adapt and deal with it--just look at Workshops, Dragon, Rector, and so on. Each time a new deck or card starts doing well, people immediately call for restrictions, instead of just PLAYTESTING and learning to beat it.

LOL... and how, oh wise one, would you suggest beating it? Running white and Sacred Ground? Playing basics? Playing basics might be a remotely plausible idea in T1 if decks with basics were capable of winning a game in T1, nevermind a match. How can anyone dispute that this card is ruining the format? It is the *exact* same situation as Skullclamp was in T2. Every deck started running it, and the format degenerated into "play Clamp" or "hate Clamp". It was quite apparant that the card needed to go.
You say that every time a card does well people call for restrictions but you seem to imply that restriciting a card is unheard of and is never necessary. Clearly, there are situations where R&D makes a mistake and something slips into the card pool that should have never been printed. Crucible is definitely one of those cards.

This thread is pretty pointless as this argument is entirely subjective. Some people think it needs restriction, others don't. Let's allow the conclusion at Gencon to tell the story.

[Cuandoman]

CARD is a card so generally effective that many tournament players were willing to include it in their decks, regardless of what the deck's theme or purpose was-the damage it could potentially inflict if played on the first turn was too attractive to ignore. In some cases, players would keep their CARDs sideboarded out if they knew they weren't going first. Since all decks had to plan for them, they completely dominated the Type # tournament landscape.

Vise or CoW?

[AngryPheldagrif]

CARD is a card so generally effective that many tournament players were willing to include it in their decks, regardless of what the deck's theme or purpose was-the damage it could potentially inflict if played on the first turn was too attractive to ignore. In some cases, players would keep their CARDs sideboarded out if they knew they weren't going first. Since all decks had to plan for them, they completely dominated the Type # tournament landscape.

Vise or CoW?

Vise. Only Workshop or a very lucky Moxen draw lets decks play CoW first.


On a more relevant note: If it really means that much to everyone, play combo or aggro. Whenever my opponents go Workshop, Crucible I practically jump for joy (Workshop, 3Sphere makes me run away screaming, but that's a separate issue ).

CoW got you down? Play Oshawa Stompy. Not only do Wastelands sit dead against Forests, but Root Maze says that Crucible's cut down by at least a turn or 2.

-Dan

[Whatever Works]

Crucible is not a fair comparison to many cards, because it can just end games, and in many situations all these "possibly" answers dont work/matter. If you voted yes saying the card is distorting then you probably have seen the following unwinable situation that CoW causes that has nothing to do with playskill, but on pure luck of drawing (kinda like combo, accept without the gimicky long turns)

Turn 1: Opponent Plays Workshop ---> Trinishipere
You say: OH CRAP!! i dont have FoW... resolves  
Turn 2: Opponent plays Strip mine... Taps workshop... Casts CoW  :shock:

You Scoop knowing nomatter what you do... you will never have another turn. That is format distorting, and even though thats a very good hand IF not the best hand for workshop deck to have, it still can be pretty frequent, and lock can occur with any of several combinations.

This card took the fundemental concept of mana denial and gives it the middle finger.

[Vegeta2711]

the damage it could potentially inflict if played on the first turn was too attractive to ignore.

This has to do with CoW... how exactly? If you play CoW first turn it sits there and looks pretty. The damage CoW inflicts doesn't normally start till turn 3-4

In some cases, players would keep their CARDs sideboarded out if they knew they weren't going first

Vise meant you we're taking 3 damage for sure and then 1-3 usually depending on how many cards you could play. Going first with vise was VERY important. If you went second, not only we're you vunerable to opponent's vises, but your own we're highly ineffective.

Opposing CoW's means each sides strategy of mana denial is gone, a stalemate.

@Whatever Works

Turn 1: Opponent Plays Workshop ---> Trinishipere
You say: OH CRAP!! i dont have FoW... resolves  
Turn 2: Opponent plays Land...Taps workshop and land... Casts Smokestack

You scoop no matter what you do. Yeah this is such a new prospect!

[Hi-Val]

Seeing as the person won't be dropping a welder for two more turns and will have to deal with Stack for 1 for a little while, the situation you describe is far from unwinnable. Crucible with Strip and 3Sphere in play is troublesome, because it is answered by, um, Darksteel Citadel x3 and that's about it.

Crucible is hardcore good. Good enough to be restricted I do not know, but very good, and format-warping.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Turn 1: Opponent Plays Workshop ---> Trinishipere
You say: OH CRAP!! i dont have FoW... resolves  
Turn 2: Opponent plays Strip mine... Taps workshop... Casts CoW  :shock:

You Scoop knowing nomatter what you do... you will never have another turn. That is format distorting

That's called a hard lock combo. And it involves 3 cards. And it depends on your opponent not going first (to play out moxen, etc). And it depends on them not being some ass with combo who can go land, ESG, ESG, Oxidize. And it depends on a pair of 3 CC artifacts. And it depends on them not grinning maniacally and Wasting your Workshop. And it depends on them not going Workshop, Crucible too. The list goes on and on.

From the ever-distorted standpoint of a guy whose deck has a consistent Turn 2 goldfish (with plenty of Turn 1's to boot) and packs a set of Forces of Will, I don't find this combo to be terribly threatening, let alone format-defining. Your argument also ignores the fact that Trinisphere is just as vital to the lock. Should that get the axe too?

-Dan

[dromar]

they completely dominated the Type # tournament landscape.

That hasn't happened yet. I think people are blowing this crucible thing all out of proportion. Is it distorting? Of course. All good cards are distorting. Is it too good? It's a close one right now, but I think a few things will decide this: 1) People will adapt, making it less powerful to play, 2)It can be hated, and 3) It's a permanent. Here's a few ways to stop this crucible lockdown:

Splinter (or any artifact destruction card really)
Sowing Salt (against wasteland)

they're kinda expensive though. Let's look a little lower:

Planar Void
Hidden Guerillas
ANY nonland source of mana
Oxidize
Annul
Force of Will
Daze
Darksteel Citadel
Tormod's Crypt

And of course, an opposing crucible works too. It seems like the talk (and examples) of this card being broken to the point of restriction always has the word "Trinisphere" in there somewhere. That's a two card combo, and you know what they say about those (Workshop makes it three). It could be restricted, but I think it'll settle down. I agree that it seems like something to throw into every (non-combo) deck, but that MAY change in the future. Maybe, maybe not. And yes, GenCon will be the deciding factor I think.

So chew on that for a while.

[JackPot76]

Turn 1: Opponent Plays Workshop ---> Trinishipere
You say: OH CRAP!! i dont have FoW... resolves  
Turn 2: Opponent plays Strip mine... Taps workshop... Casts CoW  :shock:

You Scoop knowing nomatter what you do... you will never have another turn. That is format distorting

That's called a hard lock combo. And it involves 3 cards. And it depends on your opponent not going first (to play out moxen, etc). And it depends on them not being some ass with combo who can go land, ESG, ESG, Oxidize. And it depends on a pair of 3 CC artifacts. And it depends on them not grinning maniacally and Wasting your Workshop. And it depends on them not going Workshop, Crucible too. The list goes on and on.

From the ever-distorted standpoint of a guy whose deck has a consistent Turn 2 goldfish (with plenty of Turn 1's to boot) and packs a set of Forces of Will, I don't find this combo to be terribly threatening, let alone format-defining. Your argument also ignores the fact that Trinisphere is just as vital to the lock. Should that get the axe too?

-Dan

The list doesn´t go on and on ... Here´s the list and it is short.

Force Of Will
Wasteland
Workshop

Are you serious ....combo who can go land, ESG, ESG, Oxidize. You play 4 cards and you take away his first threat without the lotus to back you up you probably can´t do nothing next turn anyway.

That's called a hard lock combo. And it involves 3 cards. Yes it´s true but it´s not a combination of 2 4ofs in the deck. About any card he resolves gives the same result. It´s not a big problem to accomplish a hard lock with all these lockcomponents.

Your argument also ignores the fact that Trinisphere is just as vital to the lock. Should that get the axe too? No neither Trinisphere nor Cow should get the axe the problem is Workshop who can fuel both these cards on turn1. Without the Workshop It´s a 3 card combo to resolve booth Trinisphere and Cow.

About turn one wins!! , StaX is probably the deck that accomplishes most turn one wins today. Not by lethal damage on turn one but it locks the opponent and says, sorry you can´t win ! Wan´t to scoop or shall we play some more turns just for fun.

Thank You!

[Vegeta2711]

Hi-Val: My main point of the example was, it's a similar scenario that will destroy your early game. I simply figured with any reasonable backing from that time on, is a game-winner.

I fully admit that it won't outright win the game as a Workshop,3Sphere, CoW, Strip Mine will, but I used a more realistic example. How often are you actually going to draw the single real Strip Mine with that set of cards?

Otherwise if the lock pointed out included just a Wasteland, it's beaten by a set of fetches and a couple of basics in the deck. And even the original example is defeated by a Workshop, CoW of your opponents.

[JackPot76]

About Darksteel Citadel!!

Why play this shitty land when you can play a basicland instead.

The only threat is Stripmine and you can only have one!

Citadel is even affected by nonbasic hosers so why run a land that is worse than a basic land and only produces colorless mana and is affected by Blood Moon and others hosers.

Solution for Crucible Of The Worlds is Blood Moon, If we say that you play against 4c Control with 2 Crucible Of The Worlds and you resolve a Blood Moon. All his lands is mountains incl. his Wastlands/Stripmine. So just pack your decks with Blood Moon and your going to own all Crucible Decks.

[Marton]

You probably missed out that some decks are almost mono brown, like MUD. Also, darksteel citadel is great vs gorilla shaman and provides a cheap artifact for goblin welder.

[JackPot76]

You probably missed out that some decks are almost mono brown, like MUD. Also, darksteel citadel is great vs gorilla shaman and provides a cheap artifact for goblin welder.

Ok, probably the monobrown decks but in general.

Island Vs Gorilla shaman works as good.

cheap artifact for goblin welder.... Is there any place in the deck to put in a land that only produces 1 colorless. Don´t you rather play Ancient Tomb.

[lilmidget]

Darksteel Citadel is stopped by Null Rod, something I hear is very popular these days...

[Dozer]

(in response to Jacob)
LOL... and how, oh wise one, would you suggest beating it? Running white and Sacred Ground? Playing basics? Playing basics might be a remotely plausible idea in T1 if decks with basics were capable of winning a game in T1, nevermind a match. How can anyone dispute that this card is ruining the format? It is the *exact* same situation as Skullclamp was in T2. Every deck started running it, and the format degenerated into "play Clamp" or "hate Clamp".

Crucible is *not* Skullclamp. Skullclamp was unable to hate out because it drew cards. Once a player got 2 or 4 cards off the Clamp, he usually was so far ahead in the card advantage race that his opponent was unable to recover. Crucible is less effective: It needs a few turns to get really hurting (if not played 1st turn), and the solutions are actually already there:
- Coffin Purge/Planar Void/Withered Wretch
- Rack and Ruin/Shattering Pulse/Goblin Welder/Blood Moon
- Oxidize/Naturalize
- Disenchant/Sacred Ground/Karmic Justice
- counterspells
- Crucible itself
- and, yes, running basic lands.

If you can't pull any of these during the first four turns of any game, you are running the wrong deck. And: Not a single one of these cards is good only versus Crucible.
As for your aversion against basic lands, Control decks have not long ago regularly been running a basic Island for Blood Moon protection. When they squeeze in 2 Islands and can have permanent Drain mana open, wil the Crucible player really deny himself his only land drop a turn, seeing how he won't get to the basic resources? I know Strip Mine exists, but you should be able to deal with that (see above). It makes games harder to play, but by no means impossible.

I see that a 1st turn Crucible is a problem when accompanied by a Wasteland. So what? Then we'll have to play (or make) decks that are not affected. Goblins laugh about Wasteland, so does Stompy. Crucible might make mono-colored decks better. We might not like it, but it is no reason to call for a restriction.

If Crucible really proves too broken at GenCon (which I don't believe, because people will prepare), and all preparation is useless, then we can start about talking which card needs to get the sack -- maybe even banning Strip Mine? Restricting Wasteland, however, is the worst solution. If the DCI does that, they WILL have to restrict Workshop as well. But that's a far future and thus moot right now.

Dozer

[Marton]

Considering the fast response rate this thread has generated, I guess someone should make an article on crucible. Also, perhaps mention the part about restrictions suggestions (crucible, wasteland, workshop).

[Shock Wave]

I see that a 1st turn Crucible is a problem when accompanied by a Wasteland. So what? Then we'll have to play (or make) decks that are not affected. Goblins laugh about Wasteland, so does Stompy. Crucible might make mono-colored decks better. We might not like it, but it is no reason to call for a restriction.

You're kidding about Goblisnand Stompy, right? I certainly hope so. If not, feel free to play them in a powered metagame and get your ass handed to you.

Crucible *is* like Clamp in the sense that ANY DECK can run it and make it effective and it is showing up in almost EVERY deck. How can you  dispute that?