[Discussion] Adapting Tog to win in this metagame.

[Fominian]

You have a very low chance of winning the Slaver match without 4 Red Elemental Blast in the SB.

That goes without saying - you can however over come that with the other colors (as I already mentioned).

I have seen Slaver loose a many a time to decks that do not run any red at all - for the simple reason they made the best of the colors they ran.  And with blue, green, and black you have a wide variety of utility to pull on.

[effang]

You have a very low chance of winning the Slaver match without 4 Red Elemental Blast in the SB.

That goes without saying - you can however over come that with the other colors (as I already mentioned).

I have seen Slaver loose a many a time to decks that do not run any red at all - for the simple reason they made the best of the colors they ran.  And with blue, green, and black you have a wide variety of utility to pull on.

I feel more inclined to believe smemmen.
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[mainmanmazz]

Well Smmenen what is the most optimal sideboard in Tog with green and red or with one or the other?

[Karn, Mox Golem]

First off, the best sideboard would obvoiusly be both as it allows the greatest range of utility.  But of course the land would then be more non-basic and thus very MWSAggro unfreindly.

I peronsally have to agree with Smmenen, while you have the ability to win past slaver without red, if you lack the blasts a skillled CS player will probably wreck you due to your inability to race their threats with counters.

[Smmenen]

Well Smmenen what is the most optimal sideboard in Tog with green and red or with one or the other?

The first rule is to have 2 Artifact Mutations.  That way you can SB in one and Wish for the other against Workshops, as if you had 4.  Secondly, I would run 4 REBs for decks like the mirror and Control Slaver and Goth Slaver.  Berserk is obviously needed.  I think running less than 3 Old Man is folly.  Old Man is good against ALL manner of Null Rod decks: Fish variants and aggro rod decks.  

1 Berserk
2 Mutation
4 Reb
3-4 Old Man

Then I'd run 1 Firestorm for general utility.  It is good against lots of stuff from FCG to Affinity and even MeanDeath and Belcher.  I'd use the Firestorm as the all purpose Welder killer.  

1 Firestorm
2 Ground Seal

Ground Seal comes in against Dragon and Welder decks.  

The final two cards depend upon what you have in the maindeck.  I use Cunning Wishes to retreive removed bombs with Tog a bit, like a regrowth.  But if you don't have Gush or Fact in the maindeck, then put that in your board.  If you have both maindeck, then put a Scrying or a Vamp, or both in the SB.  

Finally, I'd try to squeeze one Rack and Ruin in, although it's not completely necessary - it would be there almost entirely becuase of Affinity.

[effang]

two words.
goblin bombardment...

that is some serious tech.

and if not, you could always use the 1 sac, gain some life.

[mainmanmazz]

Firestorm kills SoTN. I have had pretty much 50/50 against oath, I was thinking of including Diabloic edict in the board.

[Jacob Orlove]

effang: don't double post, especially with such short posts. Also, wasting a card to sac spirit tokens against oath is really bad, since they'll just outcounter and outdraw you.

mazz: How are you getting the 5 targets to kill SotN with Firestorm? That seems implausible.

[mainmanmazz]

hmmmm I guess I'd either kill tokens or roll over and die......... Other than that I can't often out counter them BUT I have had games where I play a tog, that resolves, with an Oath in play. Than time walked for the win.

[effang]

two words.
goblin bombardment...

that is some serious tech.

and if not, you could always use the 1 sac, gain some life.

I don't see how it is that bad considering that I have seen goblin bombard in multiple IE 2-3 top 8 finishers.  Albeit they were running it for different decks, such as CS slaver, and maybe one tog, but why is it not a viable way to stop oath?  This negates oath of druids, and forbidden orchard, and makes it that you don't have to worry so much about out countering them.  Also, it is an enchantment, and as we know, oath doesn't run any MB bounce or removal.

If bombard is not good, what would you suggest? Bombard also deals damage...

But I can see your argument.  Once you play it, it will be pretty much a dead card since they won't ever orchard.  Not sure...

[onelovemachine]

The first problem I have with Smennen's ideal tog board is the choice of two mutations.  While I realize that mutation is the best possible card to play against shop, it requires having red and green mana in play against a deck that plays five strip effects and a ridiculous amount of crucibles.  It seems that your mana base will work against you, at least playing vs stacks, if your sideboard plan is to play a red/green card with nonbasics only.  Wishing for mutation is kind of slow against a deck that wants to play powerful threats like trinishphere backed up by land destruction and smokestacks and tanglewires all of which make it difficult to get off that mutation bomb.  Secondly, 3-4 old man seems out of place at least currently.  Where's fish been lately that you're so scared of it?  Metagaming for a deck at the bottom of the food chain seems like a terrible call.  Groundseal is a great card but it again depends on a manabase where green is easily accessible.  Fortunately slaver and dragon don't kill your mana with anything but sundering titans.  As far as squeazing in rack and ruin, it seems like rack and ruin is the best card for all your shop matchups because it requires one colored mana to cast and two for ones.  I think some form of draw should always be included.  All tog cares about is drawing cards; not being able to wish for draw seems like a weakness.  With tog being good against control decks to start, four red blasts might be overkill.  Not that red blast isn't necessary for those matchups, but with only fifteen cards to work with absorbing four for a good matchup might be unnecessary.

[Smmenen]

You are free to play whatever Tog sb you want, however, I have good reasons for what I suggested:

* Although Fish is no longer the monster it was, you can certainly expect it ot be there - particularly in 5 proxy events.   Not playing with Old man is like having sex without a condom.  

* Ground Seal is great - my suggested mana base has 10 green mana sources.  2 Tros, 6 Fetch, 1 Lotus, 1 Emerald - that's enough.

* You need to realize that Artifact Mutation isn't disruption, it's a win condition.  I would likely sb down to 2 and possibly even 1 Tog against Stax.  As such, you will not break your fetches or you will not find Trop and Volc until you are ready to cast Artifact Mutation.  

Against Stax, you should try win the first game through goodness, and then mull to FoW in game two.  FoW the first threat, drop a Mox and Braintorm, and then even if they do something sick, you'll be in a position to survive the game and possibly win.  

What are you talking about not having to wish for draw?  Did you see that my SB has a draw spell or vamp depending on your maindeck.  I like to Wish for Gush, Fact or Scrying.

Red Blasts are for Control Slaver.

[effang]

What would you take out against CS Slaver?

I'm always wondering just how many togs I can take out and still survive with.  Also, another card that I usually take out against slaver are my DA's as well as slower card draw (FOF most likely).  This gives me enough to board in 3-4 REB, and hopefully survive and hold off his draw long enough to smash.

[Grand Inquisitor]

You need to realize that Artifact Mutation isn't disruption, it's a win condition. I would likely sb down to 2 and possibly even 1 Tog against Stax. As such, you will not break your fetches or you will not find Trop and Volc until you are ready to cast Artifact Mutation

JP's line had always been that Hulk just has to resolve tog against stax to win.  Do you guys have different opinions on this, or did he change his mind in light of new testing?  I'm pretty sure this was said with him being aware of artifact mutation, but I could be wrong.

[Ultima]

What would you take out against CS Slaver?

I'm always wondering just how many togs I can take out and still survive with.  Also, another card that I usually take out against slaver are my DA's as well as slower card draw (FOF most likely).  This gives me enough to board in 3-4 REB, and hopefully survive and hold off his draw long enough to smash.

I think you need to do alot more testing against Slaver just based on this statement.  Why would you side out deep analysis since 90% of slaver builds now are running ak as well.  If you side out aks, you no draw left in the deck because your opponent will draw off yours meaning that you have to hold yours back, while he still has TFK to keep his game going.  Remember, DA was put in Tog for the AK mirror, NOT just the Tog mirror.

[jpmeyer]

You need to realize that Artifact Mutation isn't disruption, it's a win condition. I would likely sb down to 2 and possibly even 1 Tog against Stax. As such, you will not break your fetches or you will not find Trop and Volc until you are ready to cast Artifact Mutation

JP's line had always been that Hulk just has to resolve tog against stax to win.  Do you guys have different opinions on this, or did he change his mind in light of new testing?  I'm pretty sure this was said with him being aware of artifact mutation, but I could be wrong.

I personally never side out Togs against Workshop decks, but I still bring in a few Artifact Mutations.  I do often side down to one or two Togs against Control Slaver to decrease the chance of getting randomly Slaved and dying from the Mind Twist.

[Dante]

What would you take out against CS Slaver?

I'm always wondering just how many togs I can take out and still survive with.  Also, another card that I usually take out against slaver are my DA's as well as slower card draw (FOF most likely).  This gives me enough to board in 3-4 REB, and hopefully survive and hold off his draw long enough to smash.

I think you need to do alot more testing against Slaver just based on this statement.  Why would you side out deep analysis since 90% of slaver builds now are running ak as well.  If you side out aks, you no draw left in the deck because your opponent will draw off yours meaning that you have to hold yours back, while he still has TFK to keep his game going.  Remember, DA was put in Tog for the AK mirror, NOT just the Tog mirror.

Exactly, against decks running AK, when I played Tog, one SB strategy that worked well in a lot of situations early on is to side out 2-3 AKs since you're really focusing more on DA as your primary draw spell in those matchups, while it allows you to both Cunning Wish and/or DT for an AK if you need it.

[Razvan]

* Although Fish is no longer the monster it was, you can certainly expect it ot be there - particularly in 5 proxy events.   Not playing with Old man is like having sex without a condom.

It becomes a rock-paper-scissors game cycle, except rock beats both. Oath smokes Fish, which hurts Tog. Oath really hurts Tog as well, since they got just about the same draw engine/disruption, but Oath is far faster most of the time, and doesn't need to give Tog the traditional opening it needs (Mana Drain up).

Anyhow, point is, the threat that Fish is could completely auto-correct itself in the metagame. It's mostly only geared to fight workshop now (more than anything else), and Oath probably makes sure it's not at the top tables anyhow. If you find yourself in the drudgery of 2-2 or 3-2 tables, then maybe you will find lots of them, but not at the X-1 or X-0 tables, for X > 2. This might be only in some metagames, but I don't think that you need to fear fish that much.

* You need to realize that Artifact Mutation isn't disruption, it's a win condition.  I would likely sb down to 2 and possibly even 1 Tog against Stax.  As such, you will not break your fetches or you will not find Trop and Volc until you are ready to cast Artifact Mutation.

Sad as it is, I have seen Fish players side out most of their early creatures, and settle with winning by Artifact Mutation. It is sad.

[effang]

Yes, I've seen CS slaver lists with AK intuition, but i thought there was a consensus that those builds were weak.  I thought that people agreed that they would rather have duress in slaver, than to force through more draw just for the sake of draw.
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[onelovemachine]

Hulk just has to resolve tog against stax to win.

I feel that my chances of winning against stax drastically increase if tog hits the board.  I remember Brian Demars, the guy I test with, saying something to the effect of: when you resolve psychatog I have problems, psychatog tends to just kill me.  Most of the time simply getting to a point where tog can both hit the table and do more than like ten damage is the problem.  Turns 1-3 of stax playing disruption make it impossible for you to play the guy:trinisphere and crucible, attack with the guy: tanglewire, or keep the guy in play: smokestack, without doing something else advantageous like rack and ruin or even better mutation.  I consider mutation a win condition only so far as resolving it makes you win, but not actually kill your opponent.  Dr. teeth usually comes in for the win  in the games I play, but that could be because I don't side them out.  The mutation guys are busy being sacrificed and tapped.

[Smmenen]

JP hasn't actually played Tog v. Stax since March and he is talking about old stax lists.

I would side down to 2 and possibly 1 tog and bring in AM.

[Moxlotus]

What would your opinion be of [card] sarcatog [/card]

It surprised the hell out of me when I saw it in that Italian T8.  I even had to look up what it was.  However, it may be worth a slot for testing.

This was my first reply on this thread and Sarcatog got a lot of criticism (Hell-I would've given it criticism).  But now there are more Sarcatogs in the Top 8 of Italy.  The theory of it being a fluke is dead.  Should UBR Tog be playing with a Sarcatog?  Should the deck change its game plan from resolving C-Wish->Zerk to having the option to win the game with Sarcatog->Will back artifacts?

[Milton]

I modified my Tog deck to include the Tinker/Collosus kill.  It seems as though a deck with as much tutoring/searching/drawing as Tog can easily run Tinker, even more so that 4CC.

[JACO]

You need to realize that Artifact Mutation isn't disruption, it's a win condition. I would likely sb down to 2 and possibly even 1 Tog against Stax. As such, you will not break your fetches or you will not find Trop and Volc until you are ready to cast Artifact Mutation

JP's line had always been that Hulk just has to resolve tog against stax to win.  Do you guys have different opinions on this, or did he change his mind in light of new testing?  I'm pretty sure this was said with him being aware of artifact mutation, but I could be wrong.

This line was just that...a line. This might have been true about playing against versions of Workshop that don't play Smokestack, but against the ones that do (i.e. mostly in Europe; not the 5/3 builds you see in U.S.), resolving a Psychatog, Oath, or anything else does not guarantee any victory, nor does it even slide it in your favor, unless you are already winning the board advantage war.

The reason Artifact Mutation is so good is because it is another win condition, and helps you keep permanents on the board against good Workshop decks, which is imperative. IF you are brave enough to run a 4-color build (which I certainly wouldn't recommend if there are plenty of Workshops in your area), then 2-4 Artifact Mutations are a must. That being said, the 3-color UBR builds have nearly the same effect when you play 3-4 Rack and Ruins in your board, and provide better mana stability. As I alluded to earlier in this thread, going 1-for-1 with cards like Oxidize will not win you the matchup, as nearly everything they topdeck is a threat. You need to be gaining card advantage, and whether you use Rack and Ruin and/or Artifact Mutation, that should be your main path of combat against a competent Workshop player.

[Negator13]

I really think we Americans are not giving Italian T1T the attention it should deserve, it seems to have all the answers we are looking for in Hulk. A stable manabase, good mass removal, very good flexibility and an amazing anti-workshop sideboard.

[Osiris]

The Tog list that Ultima posted is very good, the only problem is that Smokestack is a pain to get aound, the deck needs a Deed maindeck or some type of destruction, not just for Trinistax, but for other potential threats against the deck. The basic lands I like because they keep the deck protected from Back to Basics and other land haters. Three Togs, in my opinion is the right number, because against Stax, you want to control them, and in the late game bust him out and win. One should be put in the sideboard for Aggro decks like people suggested. Duress is a good card, but I agree with Ultima, it doesn't need to go in the deck, because it leaves you vulnerable to stupid things that people might play in the early game while that slot can be used for a turn one mana leak.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

At my weekly T1 tourneys, there is always on gent who plays GUB Tog because he's so in love with Berserk and Pernicious Deed. Is he that far off? What does red have that can match the sheer power of the Deed?

[Ultima]

At my weekly T1 tourneys, there is always on gent who plays GUB Tog because he's so in love with Berserk and Pernicious Deed. Is he that far off? What does red have that can match the sheer power of the Deed?

T1 is a turn 1 format for Tog.  Tog needs to be able to either do something nuts or counter someting nuts on turn 1 to have a chance at winning since there are so many bad match-ups for it right now. Deed is not very good in general because its sorcery speed amd  its too mana intensive to both cast and execute well.  The arguement is that red supplements Tog better because its has better removal at a faster speed meaning that berserk is the only instant green is good for.  Most find that they don't even use berserk anymore and thus cut green for red.  Tog is more about control now than combo in this metagame.

[Smmenen]

What is boils down to is that Tog isn't viable without red, but it isn't playable without green.

[Conan_barberarn]

Has anyone tested fling instead of berserk? I know some Swedish players tried it out a few months ago but I haven't heard any results.

Fling has its downsides (they can block the tog) but it also has some advantages (it can be sacked eot if you're being slaved, it can kill welders etc) and it lets you remove green altogether which will give you a much better manabase.

/Gustav