[Discussion] Building a Better Hate Deck, or RG Tempo

[ShadyPhoenix]

Effective hate decks have been some of the more influential decks in t1. Earliest among these was probably Suicide Black, which preyed on the clunky devices control decks utilized and easily disrupted slow combo. In more recent times, we saw the rise and fall of the thriftymancer's best friend, Fish. Great meta shifts has caused these decks to fall in favor, but the general ideas they contained live on in budget hate decks: disrupt a pattern, destroy.

The current meta (as far as I know) consists of Stax, Slaver, Stax, Oath, Stax, DLong, Stax, Doomsday, Stacker, Oath, and Stax. With the abundance of artifacts running around, artifact destruction seems to spring to mind as a way to combat these elements. But, URG Fish already did this. The real problem with these decks is the power of CoW + Wastes versus non-basics. But what about combo? Combo will always be a bad matchup for aggro, but that doesn't mean we have to roll over and die to it. Oath is also going to be a problem for aggro decks, but with sufficient Enchantment destruction and/or tech, the matchup may not be a lost cause. In order to create a successful hate deck for this meta, we need a) an abundance of artifact hate, b) a stable manabase, c) an effective anti-combo fight, and d) be able to beat Oath-based control.

A return to RG Tempo, anyone?

Killing the Artifacts

Workshop has its ugly hands gripped tightly around the t1 metagame. There's just no denying the effectiveness of a MWS -> 3Sphere. Thankfully, the colors Red and Green are abundant in massive artifact hate. We get: Rack and Ruin, Artifact Mutation, Shattering Pulse, Viridian Shaman/Sex Monkeys, Viridian Zealot, Oxidize, Naturalize, and, of course, Mox Monkey. I've probably even forgotten some other good cards. But with this many good hate cards, the problem comes down to choosing the best ones for the job.

Immediately, we can eliminate Oxidize and Shattering Pulse. They're good, they just don't have much bang for their buck. You could say the same about Sex/Shaman, but at least they come with a 2/2 body.

Rack and Ruin is a fantastic card. It can be cast on turn 2 easily (even under 3Sphere with help from our friend ESG), taking out two of their most potent go-spells.

Artifact Mutation is equally awesome, since it not only takes out a random bad card, but creates more tokens for the win or additional Wire tap targets.

Naturalize is great because of its versaility. The Enchantment hate will come in handy against both Oath and occasionally TPS variants reliant on getting out Necro or Bargain, but we'll get into that later.

I love Gorilla Shaman so very much. Wiping out someone's manabase for 2 or 3 always fills me with a sense of sadistic glee. But you have to step back and really analyze its effectiveness. It doesn't do much against Workshop Aggro, nor does it do much against Stax once it gets going. I've thought about Viashino Heretic, but it's slow and clunky.

Viridian Zealot is just plain awesome. He's an efficient beater and can activate the turn he comes out. Tech? Yessir.

Artifact Mutation and RnR are probably the two best of this category, and Zealot performs double (triple sometimes) duty in the deck. Naturalize is also a fit.

What doesn't belong here? In my oh so humble opinion, Null Rod. Null Rod doesn't stop 3Sphere from eating your tempo, doesn't stop Smokestack from destroying your board position, doesn't stop Welder from trading those Moxen for fatties, and doesn't stop Jugs from eating your face. Therefore, it is not needed.

To a lesser extent, we need to be able to deal with Welders. Fire/Ice, Lightning Bolt, Lava Dart... removing the pipsqueak won't be much of an effort.

Secure Manabases for Every Family

At the very least, Red and Green are "allies," so it becomes easier to run basics in conjunction with Wooded Foothills. But since the deck will require a lot of manafixing, in spite of all the non-basic hate, 2 Taiga are required to help fix and set up in the early game. Afterwards, though, the deck can rely on basics.

Lest we forget about accel, though. Since most metas allow for 5 proxies, we can Proxy up on color Moxen and Lotus. ESG brings some on color accel, and Sol Ring brings up the rear for accel.

As with any hate deck, RG Tempo is going to try to attack a deck's manabase early and hard. A full set of 5 Strips will be played.

Crucible of Worlds will also be run MD to help fight the land hate, as well as recurring Strips of its own.

As good as Blood Moon looks, it doesn't hurt as many decks as you'd like to think. Unfortunate, too, as I mised a foil Moon from a scrub not too long ago and the art is amazing.

I hate Combo

As much as I love to see the look on a Sligh player's face after getting Tendril'd for 24 on turn 2, I can sympathize with their emotions. In order to prevent this from happening to our deck, we're going to look at 3 major anti-combo cards: Root Maze, Pyrostatic Pillar, and Chalice of the Void.

Root Maze is probably the most generic, broad-sweeping card of all. It also has some non-combo applications. Mainly, however, it will be used to delay combo either for you to kill them and disrupt them even more with artifact destruction. It's also used to stop Dragon dead in its tracks. It can also really hurt Belcher.

Pyrostatic Pillar looks at Storm combo and tells it to go to hell. Of course, the only problem is, Storm only needs a spell count of 9 to kill you, and 9 x2 = 18. Filling in those 2 extra points of damage can be fairly easy with the random burn you'll run, not to mention DeathLong's suicidal tendencies.

Chalice of the Void is another one of those general cards, but it is probably the worst choice. It stops acceleration from coming down, and can easily prevent lethal storm counts from building, but is also easily played around. I'd suggest Maze or Pillar over this easily.

Dodging the Fatty Bullet

Oath > aggro, or so I'm told. It will be a very, very difficult matchup, not unwinnable, but close to being so. The only tech I can think of here is Goblin Bombardment, but that's just crap. Your only real hope here is to draw into that Naturalize or Zealot and be able to play them without getting them countered.

Hate decks are never perfect. Hell, Fish rolled over to Workshops before the Green splash...

But, moving on to greener pastures, we get to the fun part: beats!

Choosing the Right Beats

We need efficient beaters that either a) kick ass and are hard to kill or b) perform a niftily helpful utility function. I've already mentioned my baby's daddy called Viridian Zealot, but there are other fantastic choices like Troll Ascetic, Ravenous Baloth, and River Boa.

Troll Ascetic is a control player's nightmare. Once Yoda gets out with regeneration mana, he's probably not going anywhere. Although he can't do anything other than beat, his skill at doing so makes him worthy of inclusion.

Ravenous Baloth is a surprisingly effective card. He's an efficient beater, but the surprise goodness comes in the fact that he can gain 4 life at the drop of a hat. Would you be surprised if I told you this actually won me a few games against DLong that could only manage a storm count of 10?

Boa is a great card, but as you see fewer and fewer Islands in today's meta, this card falls in favor. Of course, there's Oath and everything, but this card is too tiny for Oath to notice. Oath will rarely block (unless they get Her Lady of Mechanics), so Yoda does the same job, but hits harder and is harder to remove.

Flametongue Kavu is a good choice, but since aggro is pretty dead in today's meta, this will be run only if there is an overabundance of aggro in your meta.

Now that we've got a clear idea of what we want, how about a first decklist?

[RG Tempo v1.0 by ShadyPhoenix, 12/19/04]
[t1 RG Aggro/Control]
[Cards: 60]

[Manabase: 28]
Production: 15
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
6 Forest
3 Mountain
Disruption: 5
4 Wasteland
R Strip Mine
Accel: 8
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
R Mox Ruby
R Mox Emerald
R Black Lotus
R Sol Ring

[Creatures: 15]
Beats: 8
4 Troll Ascetic // River Boa
4 Ravenous Baloth
Utility: 7
4 Viridian Zealot
3 Gorilla Shaman // Viashino Heretic

[Other Spells: 17]
Disruption: 7
3 Artifact Mutation
4 Naturalize
Advantage: 2
2 Crucible of Worlds
Burn: 8
4 Lightning Bolt // Lava Dart
4 Fire/Ice

[Sideboard: 15]
1 Artifact Mutation
4 Rack and Ruin
4 Root Maze // Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 [random choice]

It's a bit rough, but, it should have enough ammo to deal with the Workshop laden meta. What really bugs me is a lack of card draw, but I guess that's to be expected in RG.

Whew, this was longer than I thought it'd be... thoughts?

[CSeraph]

So the plan is... scoop to drain-based control? 4C/Tog/Control Slaver aren't hyped right now, but people still like them so they see play. What could possibly make them happier than a deck plan that looks like this:

T1: Do nothing, or ESG out a weenie (meets FoW)
T2-4: Either cast a fatty (troll/baloth) or sit on reactive, situational cards (F/I, naturalize, artifact mutation).

I don't want to discourage you but I would hope that few metas have slid to the point where this kind of design would be optimal. I'd recommend shifting your deck focus to cards that are either good against shop and against a wider variety of decks, with whatever cards you do still main primarily against shop being of the kind that win the game then and there - artifact mutation being the obvious example. Rather than main-decking something like naturalize which is kinda blah against any deck you play against and only really shines against oath, I'd put in something more generally relevant, and side something for oath in particular - claws of gix, or what have you.

As minimal streamlining, F/I should be Grim Lavamancers, which are great vs. control, welders and other aggro and acceptable vs. the rest. Without anti-counter disruption I can't see running RBaloth in a world with Mana Drain - the only other decks that plays a 4 mana creature in T1 either get it much earlier (shop) or get a much fatter guy (madness) - and the latter sometimes doesn't run roar for fear of the drain.

I don't like crucible of worlds in decks like this, either, but if you want to keep it and slow cards like the trolls in, birds of paradise is an automatic 4-of. Going first it makes trinisphere look terrible, and it gives your slow cards a chance of slipping past drain.

[DrossVamp]

Mask of Memory could be a decent draw engine, as you're not running Null Rod. Grim Lavamancers are a good idea, not only giving you removal, but giving you repeated removal when you need it, and a good target for Mask if you so choose to run it. Birds of Paradise also seem like they should definitely be in here. First turn 3Sphere is just plain brutal.They also seem like they would make a decent Mask target late game when the mana accel isn't needed. What about some kind of man-land?  know they're slow, and this is a tempo deck, but they'd be decent if the other guy lays down a 3Sphere and don't hurt against Oath, as well as being uncounterable,albeit slow, versus the aforementioned Drain-based Control. I could be wrong but it makes some sense.

[FreshIsOuttaTurn]

So what happens when you just dont draw threats?  Seeing as you have a whopping 8, its more than likely you will just lose to a random dork.  You either need to increase your threat count while maintaining your disruption (Lavamancer for Lightning bolt/Lava Dart) or a draw engine (mask of memory, sword of fire and ice).

Honestly, you NEED root maze maindeck to slow down both Combo and Workshop... If you agree to play that deck in its current form, ill gladly play you with a workshop based deck.  Im not worried about you getting to 4!!!! mana and casting baloth... and Ascetic isnt so hot vs the Bus.  Right now you are too reactive, root maze just shuts down the 3sphere-> win plan as well as turn 1/2 Drain (if you go first).

Viridian Zealot is just bad... 4 mana to destroy an artifact/enchantment?  so 5 mana under the 3sphere you cant stop?  Id rather have a more aggressive beater there to smash face.  Even now your chances against Oath are pretty slim.  So personally Id rather give up my preboard game vs Oath to crush anything Control or Shop and go 50/50 or 40/60 against combo and try to use the SB to fix those matches.

Combo is easy enough remedied.. Pillar + Root Maze + random REB's can win easily enough if you play control.  Against Oath, another naturalize, maybe some spawning pits, and some SSAOT can fix that match.

Good idea, but there are some glaring holes in the plan.  Mainly the "no draw engine to speak of" one.

EDIT: SSAOT is short for Super Secret Anti Oath tech... I actually have nothin particular in mind, but you need some kinda answer... id look at attacking their creatures more than their Oathes.  Oathes are any good if their creatures die.

[Tobi]

id look at attacking their creatures more than their Oathes.  Oathes are any good if their creatures die.

If the Oath player is able to oath up one of his creatures (which RG is almost unable to deal with) he has mana open and a bunch of counterspells. So the main plan to deal with Oath is to deal with the Oath. Naturalize EOT if Oath is cast.

For Oathed up creatures try Maze of Ith to keep them at bay while you beat with Boas, Lavamancers and burn. This and early pressure is your best chance against Oath.

As for the beats, reduce the number of high costed creatures. Troll Ascetic is good, but you really don't want too many of them sitting in your hand while you try to get to 3 mana. Kird Apes are faster and also serve as good blockers if you happen to face aggro.
Mishra's Factories up your land count and serve as good beats, also good to block Juggernauts.

Reduce the number of reactive cards. 3-4 slots are enough. I prefer 4 Naturalize maindeck, as these are the most flexible.

Crucible of Worlds is probably a weak choice, but I never tested it. It can set off your lack of carddraw, which is really a problem. You will need more recurring damage sources like Lavamancer or Cursed Scroll.

This is a list I used to play with some success in the past (budget):

1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Naturalize
4 Kird Ape
4 River Boa
2 Troll Ascetic
4 Gorilla Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Treetop Village
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Mountain
4 Forest

SB
4 Maze of Ith
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rack and Ruin
5 metagame slots

[ShadyPhoenix]

I had thought 'Tog and 4cC were dead. I kept 'Slaver in consideration for building this deck, and thought the massive artifact hate would help it tremendously.

My only problem with Claws of Gix is trying to win afterwards. It's going to be hard to kill my opponent when I'm always sacrificing my own creatures to that to prevent them from Oathing. I've seen people use their own Forbidden Orchards against Oath, which seems interesting, although probably not useful at all.

'Mancer goes in for F/I, Baloth leaves for River Boa.

Birds is an interesting idea, even if I take out the Baloths. It's also a mana fixer, which could streamline the deck. I guess I'll cut CoWs to the SB, although I want two somewhere in the deck.

Mask of Memory only triggers off combat damage to a player, so 'Mancerand Birds aren't the best targets. However, Mask is still a great addition to the deck.

My only complaint about a manland is that it's nonbasic, which opens me up the the nonbasic hate that snuffed URG Fish out of existence. They are great under a 3Sphere, and allow me to use random SSAOT like Goblin Bombardment, so they're up for consideration at the very least.

Maks is going in. I'm not a fan of SoFI; I think it's too slow and clunky (this coming from the Baloth guy, I know). The Shock each turn is useful, but I'd rather just draw cards with Mask.

Root Maze MD is good. But, what to cut?

Zealot is expensive to use, I'll give you that, but I've always loved the versatility of the card. What would you suggest I trade it out with? More artifact hate (going with both Shaman and Heretic) or Call of the Herd? Maybe something else?

Combo is being fought to the best of my ablities in the SB.

EDIT:

I agree with Tobi; fighting their creatures is a lost cause.

Maze of Ith is an interesting idea, but, Oath runs Wastelands, and Maze itself doesn't produce any mana. It could be worth testing.

Kird Ape is okay, but doesn't do anything other than hit. It's easily dealt with and can't take out a Juggs. Factories are something I'm really wanting to run, but I'm afraid of having the deck's manabase completely wrecked by nonbasic hate.

Your list is similar to the one I played in the meta about 6 or so months ago. Then again, I chose it over Fish because I had to deal with scrubby aggro as well as competitive decks. One thing I can see about your deck is that, like mine, it folded to a CoW/Waste. Looks pretty good for that meta, though.

Here comes a new decklist...:

[RG Tempo]
[t1 RG Aggro/Control]
[Cards: 60]

[Manabase: 24]
Production: 12
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
4 Forest
2 Mountain
Disruption: 5
4 Wasteland
R Strip Mine
Accel: 7
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
R Mox Ruby
R Mox Emerald
R Black Lotus

[Creatures: 20]
Beats: 12
4 River Boa
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Call of the Herd
Utility: 8
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Gorilla Shaman // Viashino Heretic

[Other Spells: 16]
Draw: 4
4 Mask of Memory
Disruption: 8
4 Artifact Mutation
4 Root Maze
Burn: 4
4 Fire/Ice (it's more versatile than Bolt)

[Sideboard: 15]
4 Naturalize
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Rack and Ruin

Birds would be great, but, where do I fit them in? I believe Root Maze is a much more versatile tool, and I already pack a lot of acceleration.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Hey Shady, I know you've worked extensively on R/G Hate before, but I think you've kinda got caught up in all the hate R/G offers.

Creatures
I think your card choices are kinda off.  River Boa is an auto-include because its so good against blue decks, but I think troll ascetic doesn't do enough to be in this deck.  It was good when fish was everywhere, but now its kinda crappy.  It took me a while to realize this.

Baloth is too expensive to be here.  Blue will just drain it and workshop with have the board controlled by the time he comes out.  I think a good replacement would be grim lavamancer for some welder controland utility.

I think you have the right idea with zealot, but I think Elvish lyrist is probably better here.  Sure he can't use his ability the turn he comes out, but he's still a turn quicker than zealot.

I would also keep 3 gorilla shaman and maybe find room for 2-3 heretics later.

other spells
I think you should drop 1 mutation and 1 naturalize.  There purposes, while still quite broad, are limited to only a couple of decks.  And you can always put the extras in the SB.

I don't like CoW in here.  It seems to upset the tempo, rather than gain you tempo.  Fish and MWS-MUD decks run it well because they can do a whole lot of nifty stuff on their turns AND nuke a land.  It doesn't seem like this deck can do that.

I would actually add 3 Blood Moon MD.  I know you said it doesn't hurt as many decks, but I think it does.  It kills Workshops Workshops.  It eliminates almost all (if not all) of Oath's green mana sources.  If played first turn it can even screw combo by getting rid of that Underground Sea.  It also messes up fish, which you still will see at tournaments b/c its still a powerful deck for its $ cost.

That leaves you with 1 open slot.  I would drop 1 mountain and 1 forest from the mana base and add 3 rancor.  Yes, rancor.  Since this deck relies on hate it starts to lack aggression, which is still very important.  Rancor gives back some of that aggression, and makes it so your weenies can go toe to toe with those juggs.

As for the SB, plop in the remaining mutations and naturalizes.  I would drop the R&R because the other artifact hate cards are enough, and you have monkies MD.  I really like Pillar over maze here because of the burn you pack.  It shouldn't be hard to burn them in response, or activate lavamancer.  Obviously the REB should stay for reasons everyone knows.  For the last 4 slots, I would suggest another Oath hoser, goblin bombardment, spwaning pit, or claws of gix.  Or if control is rampant in your meta, you could board the ascetics.

EDIT:  oops new decklist:
I like this one better, althoug I'd drop the CotH for Elvish Lyrist.  I also don't like Maze MD, but I haven't tested yet.  I don't think you need Mask because the decks constistency makes up for its lack of draw.  At least thats what I've experienced.

[Covetous]

Since you have arrived on the idea of using mask of memory as a draw engine, you could consider running wild mongrel and basking rootwalla, plus maybe (but probably not) arrogant wurm.  Mongrel is just a great card, especially when you are already running Grimmy, and the Rooty is a 1-cc 3/3--and early threats are good.  I personally think that null rod is better than using mask, but the mongrel/walla plan is generally better than using the slower and more bulky troll.  I like Call of the Herd in this deck, and I think that the Mox Monkey is better than the Heretic, especially if you are running Artifact Mutation already.  However, I don't really think that 4 MD artifact mutates are really necessary, especially because against anything other than workshop, they really suck.  

I would personally lean towards something more like this (although maybe not exactly):
4 grim
4 rootwalla
4 mongrel
4 boa
4 call
3-4 mask of memory or null rod
4 fire/ice or bolt (f/i hits 2 for 1, but bolt can kill juggs)
2-3 naturalize (more versatile than artifact mutation despite not being as game-breaking)
4 root maze
4 ESG
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
2 moxen
1 lotus
4 foothills
4 taiga
4 forest
2 mountain

[ShadyPhoenix]

@ Tim: You also have to remember that Troll is a pain in the ass for Control to remove. Even stuff like Starstorm won't do much against him. I agree that it may be too slow, but I like its game against Control. It'll be looked at during more testing.

Lyrist could work, but I dislike the fact that it is useless against Workshops or Slaver.

That spot is up for debate right now.

Blood Moon is seemingly nice, but the 3cc really works against it when its something you want to cast on turn 1. Root Maze does a similar job (stalling) while at the same time has more functions against a wider range of decks. This will be another spot I check during testing.

Rancor is quite good, but, with the testing I did, I found it to be either a dead card, or win-more. I think its more fitting in a really fast aggro deck like Oshawa, not in a slower, more destructive deck like this.

(Speaking of Oshawa, the reason to run this deck over Oshawa is because of the superior artifact hate and combo hate, as well as being able to handle a wider array of decks.)

@ Covetous: That turns the deck into more of a RG Madness build, which, to be fair, could work out better than my current set-up. Of course, then I'm just 1 step away from adding in 4 Survivals and calling it Oshawa/r.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Troll is a pain against control, I agree.  Maybe run three troll instead of 3 rancor?  That way you still have the agressiveness the deck needs, but also the pain in the ass that troll is.

If you are worried about slaver, you should be running null rod.  Naturalize and artifact mutation don't do much when he's ready to slaver you.  However, the slaver player needs welder to make it work, and if you keep bolt, f/i, and lavamancer in, I don't see welder being a problem.

As for workshop, the only thing you need to worry about is that turn 1 trinishpere (but what deck doesn't).  You have naturalizes and AM and even mox monkeys to help out with things.  I think workshop is your best matchup, so I don't think running lyrist will hurt.  More Oath protection is good.

Blood Moon is expensive, but I think a turn 1 BM is quite possible, and a turn 2 BM is probably consistent.  I haven't tested BM MD in a while, so I guess I'm not qualified to comment, but my reasoning is that it would be better to shut their manabase down completely, than to slow it down a turn.  It does require more testing.

At adding Madness:  we could call it the Big OR!!   :lol:

[Covetous]

Adding Mongrel and Rootwalla doesn't really make it into madness because you don't depend on the madness outlets.  Mongrel + Rootwalla is just good synergy, especially with Grim--they are both efficient creatures that work well together.  Plus, a mongrel can get mighty big if you need him to.  While it is true that troll can be a pain for control, he should be there in place of call or not at all.  Maybe a 2 + 2 configuration would be best.  I like Call better because it can make 2 creatures, but troll is also very strong--testing will be the determining factor.  Blood Moon is a great card, but Root maze is faster and better vs. combo.  BM in the SB is probably good.

[ShadyPhoenix]

Troll is a pain against control, I agree.  Maybe run three troll instead of 3 rancor?  That way you still have the agressiveness the deck needs, but also the pain in the ass that troll is.

I'm not running any Rancors currently, though, after reading a few reports, they sound like they could be useful. As Control is probably one of the weaker matchups right now, I'd like to keep Troll in as a way to balance it out. Also, Troll > Fish.

If you are worried about slaver, you should be running null rod.  Naturalize and artifact mutation don't do much when he's ready to slaver you.  However, the slaver player needs welder to make it work, and if you keep bolt, f/i, and lavamancer in, I don't see welder being a problem.

Root Maze makes this difficult. They have to wait a turn before they Slaverize me, which would easily allow me to ArtiMute it. You're also correct about removing Welder.

As for workshop, the only thing you need to worry about is that turn 1 trinishpere (but what deck doesn't).  You have naturalizes and AM and even mox monkeys to help out with things.  I think workshop is your best matchup, so I don't think running lyrist will hurt.  More Oath protection is good.

Hm. This is true.

Blood Moon is expensive, but I think a turn 1 BM is quite possible, and a turn 2 BM is probably consistent.  I haven't tested BM MD in a while, so I guess I'm not qualified to comment, but my reasoning is that it would be better to shut their manabase down completely, than to slow it down a turn.  It does require more testing.

It's possible, but probable it isn't. Turn 2 is very real, though. BM is certainly worth testing, as it turns Shops and Wastes into crap. If anything, it's SB.

At adding Madness:  we could call it the Big OR!!   :lol:

/groan

[[supa_t(im)]]

Hmm, I think Covetous is right about Root Maze being better against combo.  Although Blood Moon takes care of their Underground Sea, if they play lotus and/or Mox Jet and/or Mox Sapphire it still gives them the stuff they need.  If they can't use their moxen on the turn they play them it kinda kills their game plan.  Blood Moon might be better in the SB because its good against decks that R/G Hate already is decent against.  Although it can still shut down Oath's green sources and 4cC white sources, so I think its stays in the SB.

Here is a link to the topic I started some time ago.  It may help a little:
R/G Hate

With the inclusion of Maze MD, do we still want pillar SB?

[ShadyPhoenix]

Tim has a point about BM in the SB, but I still don't think I'd bring it in against Workshop, since I'm pretty set in that matchup.

Pillar SB is great. Root Maze can only do so much, and Pillar helps seal the deal against combo.

Speaking of Root Maze MD, I'm going to drop fetches, since they are ++ bad with Maze. I'm replacing them with Land Grants.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I don't know about land grant.  Counterable fetches?  Letting your opponent see your hand?

These aren't things I like to have in my deck, or have to do. . .

Maybe just drop down to 2 fetches and the rest basics.  I know thining is important, but I don't like the alternative.

[ShadyPhoenix]

The thing is, not only are fetches deck thinners, they're mana fixers. But, then again, counterable fetches aren't exactly tech either.

Any other choices?

[WildWillieWonderboy]

The important thing about Ascetic is that he stops and kills Juggernauts and just stops tinkered titan.
Birds is also important because turn one land and birds then turn two land gets you right out from under trinisphere.

[Chaos Blade]

Well for the Slaver match up, main deck or sideboard Ground Seal could do well. It is good in the Workshop, Slaver, and Dragon match ups. Also I think Mask should be dropped. Some other cards to consider are Magma Jet and Sylvan Library.

[FreshIsOuttaTurn]

I am so confused...  So apparently if you try to attack their creatures they have this wall of counters but they dont if you try to attack their Oathes?  And Australia is like, "WTF? mate".  Seriously... I cant follow the logic involved there.

So Oath runs 2 Wasteland and a Strip, you decide to run 4 Maze of Ith after boarding... Nope, dont see a problem with that... your land base is mostly basics, odds would suggest they would side out dead cards like Wasteland (siding out lands!?!?! yes it happens a bit).  Also, there are other ways of dealing with creatures.  Oath doesnt have a bajillion counters... it has.. what... 11? 12?  14 if you include MisD.  I dont give control decks that much counter credibility anymore after playing Tog and other control so long.  If you are so worried about their counter power, cast Overmaster, then any random spell or Insist followed by a dude.  If they have 2 counters and such, then drop Maze of Ith and smile.  The wave to beat control is just to hit them again, and again, and again, and again, ad nauseum.  As soon as you have The Fear they win.

In any case, skullclamp seems like "A Bad Idea"(tm) with only 11 creatures.  So do cards like Kird Ape, Incinerate, Cursed Scroll, and Call of the Herd.  This deck doesnt have THAT much disruption is can waste spots on subpar cards.  Im sorry but 2/3s for R have been outdated since the 90s, as well as 3 damage to 1 target for 3 mana.  If you would spend those spots on the aforementioned Root Maze, Blood Moon, Null Rod, etc... youd have a much stronger game.  I wouldnt worry about other aggro stuff.  Id worry about beating Workshop, Drain-based control (which are always around), Oath, and Combo.

You guys keep going back to old R/G ideas.  Anyone notice that things change a bit?  Look at every deck that stays in power, they all have changed to adept.  R/G is based dorks and burn.  Its on to slowing crap down and blowing crap up.  Winning is something that happens once you manage the first things.

On a note to Phoenix... Land Grants are das Sheissnit.  Who cares if they see your hand?  They allow you to ensure 2 land drop if you have land, land grant in your hand to start.  Good times.  Dont start this screw fetches go basics! thing either.  Thats a good way to draw dead turn after turn.  Land grant is good.  Ask JP Meyer sometime.

[ShadyPhoenix]

I am so confused...  So apparently if you try to attack their creatures they have this wall of counters but they dont if you try to attack their Oathes?  And Australia is like, "WTF? mate".  Seriously... I cant follow the logic involved there.

It's not the counters, its the lack of being able to deal with their creatures in Red and Green. If they poop out an Akroma, I'm practically done for.

So Oath runs 2 Wasteland and a Strip, you decide to run 4 Maze of Ith after boarding... Nope, dont see a problem with that... your land base is mostly basics, odds would suggest they would side out dead cards like Wasteland (siding out lands!?!?! yes it happens a bit).  Also, there are other ways of dealing with creatures.  Oath doesnt have a bajillion counters... it has.. what... 11? 12?  14 if you include MisD.  I dont give control decks that much counter credibility anymore after playing Tog and other control so long.  If you are so worried about their counter power, cast Overmaster, then any random spell or Insist followed by a dude.  If they have 2 counters and such, then drop Maze of Ith and smile.  The wave to beat control is just to hit them again, and again, and again, and again, ad nauseum.  As soon as you have The Fear they win.

Good point. But what about Game 3? They side stuff back in, and I get screwed. The Mazes seem good, though, so I'll keep 4 SB. REB goes in for their counters. To be honest, I'm not worried about counters, since I've learned to play around them.

In any case, skullclamp seems like "A Bad Idea"(tm) with only 11 creatures.  So do cards like Kird Ape, Incinerate, Cursed Scroll, and Call of the Herd.  This deck doesnt have THAT much disruption is can waste spots on subpar cards.  Im sorry but 2/3s for R have been outdated since the 90s, as well as 3 damage to 1 target for 3 mana.  If you would spend those spots on the aforementioned Root Maze, Blood Moon, Null Rod, etc... youd have a much stronger game.  I wouldnt worry about other aggro stuff.  Id worry about beating Workshop, Drain-based control (which are always around), Oath, and Combo.

You are correct, sir.

You guys keep going back to old R/G ideas.  Anyone notice that things change a bit?  Look at every deck that stays in power, they all have changed to adept.  R/G is based dorks and burn.  Its on to slowing crap down and blowing crap up.  Winning is something that happens once you manage the first things.

Again, hammer is connecting to nail.

On a note to Phoenix... Land Grants are das Sheissnit.  Who cares if they see your hand?  They allow you to ensure 2 land drop if you have land, land grant in your hand to start.  Good times.  Dont start this screw fetches go basics! thing either.  Thats a good way to draw dead turn after turn.  Land grant is good.  Ask JP Meyer sometime.

I know it's good, but I'm hesitant to run counterable mana sources. If they FoW my opening Grant with me stuck on one mana, I am screwed. It's still better than fetches, though, so, in go the Grants.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I am so confused...  So apparently if you try to attack their creatures they have this wall of counters but they dont if you try to attack their Oathes?  And Australia is like, "WTF? mate".  Seriously... I cant follow the logic involved there.

Their creatures come out when they have mana available for counters, if you play a first turn lyrist, only a FoW can stop you from killing their Oath.  Also R/G can't even deal with their creatures, so its better to attack its Oath.

So Oath runs 2 Wasteland and a Strip, you decide to run 4 Maze of Ith after boarding... Nope, dont see a problem with that... your land base is mostly basics, odds would suggest they would side out dead cards like Wasteland (siding out lands!?!?! yes it happens a bit).  Also, there are other ways of dealing with creatures.  Oath doesnt have a bajillion counters... it has.. what... 11? 12?  14 if you include MisD.  I dont give control decks that much counter credibility anymore after playing Tog and other control so long.  If you are so worried about their counter power, cast Overmaster, then any random spell or Insist followed by a dude.  If they have 2 counters and such, then drop Maze of Ith and smile.  The wave to beat control is just to hit them again, and again, and again, and again, ad nauseum.  As soon as you have The Fear they win.

Very good point.  Maze is good against a lot of decks other than Oath.  Definitely a card to consider in the SB.

In any case, skullclamp seems like "A Bad Idea"(tm) with only 11 creatures.  So do cards like Kird Ape, Incinerate, Cursed Scroll, and Call of the Herd.  This deck doesnt have THAT much disruption is can waste spots on subpar cards.  Im sorry but 2/3s for R have been outdated since the 90s, as well as 3 damage to 1 target for 3 mana.  If you would spend those spots on the aforementioned Root Maze, Blood Moon, Null Rod, etc... youd have a much stronger game.  I wouldnt worry about other aggro stuff.  Id worry about beating Workshop, Drain-based control (which are always around), Oath, and Combo.

You guys keep going back to old R/G ideas.  Anyone notice that things change a bit?  Look at every deck that stays in power, they all have changed to adept.  R/G is based dorks and burn.  Its on to slowing crap down and blowing crap up.  Winning is something that happens once you manage the first things.

I agree wholeheartedly.  Although I don't see much of a point to these paragraphs since I think only 1 person suggested those things, and they were dismissed by everyone else.

On a note to Phoenix... Land Grants are das Sheissnit.  Who cares if they see your hand?  They allow you to ensure 2 land drop if you have land, land grant in your hand to start.  Good times.  Dont start this screw fetches go basics! thing either.  Thats a good way to draw dead turn after turn.  Land grant is good.  Ask JP Meyer sometime.

I don't think you understand how bad it is to show your hand to your opponent however.  If you do that, they'll know your gameplan and can take steps to counter it, or they'll know which key spells to get rid of, or they'll formulate their own strategy.  Also what if they have Cabal Therapy, well, you just gave away which card to name.  I really don't like them, but I see no alternative, so I guess they'll have to do.

[Godder]

Something with forestcycling, mountaincycling or Krosan Tusker perhaps? I'm not big on them, but they are basically uncounterable, while having possible uses in the late game (heaven forbid that you ever actually have to hard-cast one of these things)...

[ShadyPhoenix]

Something with forestcycling, mountaincycling or Krosan Tusker perhaps? I'm not big on them, but they are basically uncounterable, while having possible uses in the late game (heaven forbid that you ever actually have to hard-cast one of these things)...

Thinking about either of those getting Drained when hardcast is enough to make me want to quit Magic.

The only problem with those is that they cost 2 mana, which should put me well on my way to building resources.

I've been thinking of playing Lay of the Land. Thoughts?

[[supa_t(im)]]

It just seems like a waste of tempo.

1 mana to get a land, when you should be playing other things, like threats or disruption.

It might work, although I just can't help but thing that Land grant is the best solution.  Have you tested with Land Grants yet?

Whats the current list Shady?

[FreshIsOuttaTurn]

I don't think you understand how bad it is to show your hand to your opponent however. If you do that, they'll know your gameplan and can take steps to counter it, or they'll know which key spells to get rid of, or they'll formulate their own strategy. Also what if they have Cabal Therapy, well, you just gave away which card to name. I really don't like them, but I see no alternative, so I guess they'll have to do.

I understand quite how bad it is to show your hand.  But the idea is that you have to choices: 1 is to run the risk of root maze + fetches or 2 is to just run the gauntlet.  Now it takes a bit of skill to play land grants in the right way so as to minimize the draw back.  But the idea is that with the land you get you will over power them to a point where they cant stop everything you cast.  Same idea as Belcher but on a lesser scale of brokenness.

EDIT: Completely forgot most of this deck's disruption is 1 mana, i was thinking it was a different RG variant based around SotF.  So maybe Lay of the Land isnt such a good plan.  But then again maybe it is with Elvish Spirit Guides and such.  Ill try it at least

I agree wholeheartedly. Although I don't see much of a point to these paragraphs since I think only 1 person suggested those things, and they were dismissed by everyone else.

I think there was a lot more than one person guilty of this if you would go back and look at what people are saying.  Im tryin to move the rest of the thread, who are a bit behind, along.

It's not the counters, its the lack of being able to deal with their creatures in Red and Green. If they poop out an Akroma, I'm practically done for.

Thats not true, check your inbox in a day, ill PM you a list of answers once i scrounge them up from the clutter of my desk which you can choose to share or not to.

Good point. But what about Game 3? They side stuff back in, and I get screwed. The Mazes seem good, though, so I'll keep 4 SB. REB goes in for their counters. To be honest, I'm not worried about counters, since I've learned to play around them.

Game 3?  well thats where your Crucibles come in (you should be running a few crucibles, or at least 1).  With wastelands you should have the CoWs each game, so their wastelands wont matter, or will matter less.  If they try to be tricky, save your own wasteland to wasteland theirs and then bring back the maze.  GG?

I did not think of lay of the land... but that could be a damn good idea.  Well done.  Id take that over Land Grant, cuz you wont be keepin any no land, land grant hands anyways.  We should throw in Fires of Yavimaya and Blasterderms while were at it to bring back the full IBC feel .  No really, i never would have thought of that, so cheers.

[ShadyPhoenix]

It just seems like a waste of tempo.

1 mana to get a land, when you should be playing other things, like threats or disruption.

I agree, but, many times there's nothing to do on turn 1. Except stablize your mana situation.

It might work, although I just can't help but thing that Land grant is the best solution.  Have you tested with Land Grants yet?

Er, sure. I test all of the time.  

Whats the current list Shady?

See the old one, + any additions I may have made since then.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Wait, just for clarification, why are you using root maze again?  Its to stop artifact mana for combo, and slow workshop down a little right?  Doesn't null rod do the same thing?  I could be wrong if the purpose of maze is more, but it seems null rod could be better.

Here is what I am testing:
//Mana 25
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
4 ESG
//Beats 18
4 River Boa
4 Elvish Lyrist
4 Gorilla Shaman
3 Troll Ascetic
3 Grim Lavamancer
//Hate 9
3 Blood Moon
3 Null Rod
3 Artifact Mutation
//Burn 8
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
//SB 15
4 REB
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Maze of Ith
3 Goblin Bombardment (Maybe fire/ice)

Moon MD, cause I still think its worth a MD spot since Oath, Workshop, 4cC, and Fish are still very present in today's metagame, and Moon is good against all of those.  Null Rod is in for combo, it basically serves the same purpose as root maze, except it doesn't just stall them for 1 turn.  Also, if you have Moon in your hand, you can almost certainly cast it turn 2, but you have to mulligan aggresively to cast it on turn 1 reliably.

I've been testing Magma jet over Fire/Ice for a couple of reasons.  Fish isn't showing up is as great of number anymore, so you don't necessarily need the 2 for 1 dealy, also Blood Moon owns their manabase (and manlands).  Jet does the same amount of damage as fire/ice for the same mana cost, but its lets you dig into your library, something very off color for red.  This helps improve topdecks.

Hate against Oath MD:  Blood Moon, Elvish Lyrist.  SB:  Maze of Ith, SSAOT (if used).

Hate against Workshop MD:  Blood Moon, Artifact Mutation, Gorilla Shaman (sometimes), Null Rod (sometimes).  SB:  Maze of Ith (sometimes).

Hate against Aggro MD:  Troll Ascetic, Grim Lavamancer, Lightning Bolt, Magma Jet.  SB:  No need.

Hate against Fish MD:  Troll Ascetic, Blood Moon, Lightning Bolt, Magma Jet, River Boa, Grim Lavamancer, Strip effects.  SB:  REB.

Hate against storm combo MD:  Blood Moon (to an extent), Strip effects, Null Rod.  SB:  Pyrostatic Pillar, REB.

Hate in this case meaning "cards useful against."

Thats what I've been testing lately with moderate succes.  I guess I have an irrational fear of not being able to use fetchlands.

[doomhed]

this is what my Girlfriend Piloted to 14th at newington and 83rd @ waterbury

R/G Beatz
Team Batman Redux

4x Tiaga
4x Wooded Foothills
4x wasteland
1x strip mine
1x Black lotus (proxy)
1x Mox Ruby (proxy)
1x mox Emerald (Proxy)
4x Forest
4x Mountain

4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Kird Ape
4x Gorilla Shamen
4x lightning bolt
4x incinerate

4x River Boa
4x Rancor
4x Hidden GIbbons
4x Hidden Herd

Sideboard
Metagame dependant

we built this to wreck fish decks and to own tog with our spectacular sideboard tech.

good luck

[Faulk]

I heavely support the Mongrel/rootwalla idea. It's Pretty good beatz and have great synergies. Like lavamancer! It makes him way better! And if you got some dead Artifact Mutation, just discard 'em. If you run mancer, I'd run at least 6 fetch + 5 strips.

[serracollector]

I have played and played and played R/G beatz more and more, and well, I guess all my comments can be found right here, when I won/t8 several t1 tournies with it, so here, here is my help/suggestions/comments:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18970&highlight=

your welcome

Serracollector