[Discussion] The Best Build of Gifts Belcher

[Shades]

Look at the German build, the one that pioneered all the Gifts Ungiven decks around and inspired my build. See other win conditions after Darksteel Colossus? I don't.

Is the list you'd like us to look at published anywhere?

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/8671.html

Another build which may be based on the Germans' is 2nd place at Leiden, here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=22265.0

The decklist in Carsten's article is outdated.

And I can't find a member of Team CAB in the Top 8 you posted.

We will reveal it after the Paris tournament. (Actually it's not THAT different from the lists you see in carsten's article but there are a few differences and some cool tech )


/edit: I like Toad's build better

[Machinus]

Has anyone tested Lotus Petal for its mana production? Gifts is a yawgwill deck and Petal generates 2 colored mana, making combo perhaps a turn earlier.

[Rico Suave]

Has anyone tested Lotus Petal for its mana production? Gifts is a yawgwill deck and Petal generates 2 colored mana, making combo perhaps a turn earlier.

Yes.  Rich's list in the original post already runs Petal, although Carl's does not.  It's also another card to put into a Gifts, with something that looks like: Black Lotus, Mox Jet, Lotus Petal, Mana Crypt to cast Will.  A land for black mana is not satisfactory to put into that because you don't want to rely on such things as whether or not you used your land drop in order to go off this turn.  Maybe you already spent your land drop playing Academy for that Gifts, and even if not at the very least you can still play one off the Will. 

[Kowal]

Lotus Petal has also been in SSB since Andy ran the prototype at Syracuse.  Petal is insanely good.

[Toad]

I have been playtesting a lot with Lotus Petal and it has been very bad all the time. And often even worse.

It just does nothing except being discarded to Thirst for Knowledge. Getting Gifts Ungiven a turn earlier is hardly a good deal because you will still get 1 mana below afterwards (turn 3 EOT Gifts Ungiven with Lotus Peal, turn 4 you don't have 5 mana for Recoup and Yawgmoth's Will). This deck just wants to ramp up mana, not to do broken things during one turn and getting stalled on the following one.

Basically, It could allow you to win a turn faster against Aggro, but you beat them without it anyways. It doesnt do much against Combo, and against Control, its obviously terrible.

[Rico Suave]

Basically, It could allow you to win a turn faster against Aggro, but you beat them without it anyways. It doesnt do much against Combo, and against Control, its obviously terrible.

I don't understand how Lotus Petal doesn't do much against Combo.  Isn't getting Mana Drain online first turn good in those matches?

[Kowal]

Lotus Petal is mostly just for drain.  If you're using it to "power out" gifts, you're playing poorly.

[Meddling Mike]

Lotus petal also helps out with academy, thirst, tinker and Yawgmoth's Will. I feel it fits in this deck perfectly as well as helping you get drain mana turn 1. I've been very happy with it in my build.

[Methuselahn]

My questions revolve around the land singletons. 

It seems to me that of LoA, Academy, and Boseiju, the two latter seem the most appropriate for these archetypes.  The decks aren't in it for the long haul, so LoA seems like it's just in there because of the random brokenness it can give you early.  It would not be something I would ever tutor for, that's for sure.

Speaking of tutors, I've been questioning Vampiric over Mystical as a maindeck slot.  Often, Vamping for Academy and less often for Boseiju has been the play to win the game right there.  I've also found myself simply tutoring up Belcher when I get the right hand.  Basically, I think Mystical has holes which Vampiric can fill.  I still dread the fact that it is not blue, but I think it is definitely pulling it's weight.

Thoughts?

[TheWhiteDragon]

Speaking of tutors, I've been questioning Vampiric over Mystical as a maindeck slot. Often, Vamping for Academy and less often for Boseiju has been the play to win the game right there. I've also found myself simply tutoring up Belcher when I get the right hand. Basically, I think Mystical has holes which Vampiric can fill. I still dread the fact that it is not blue, but I think it is definitely pulling it's weight.

Thoughts?

I for one love Vampiric.  I think it is far better in any deck that doesn't have 100% Mystical targets.  Grabbing the Academy, lotus, belcher, or Boseiju make this the optimal tutor in my opinion.  I understand keeping the blue count high for FoW is important, but how many times do you want to pitch Mystical...the card that says "next turn i get tinker and win"  It would have to be a trinisphere (not likely anymore) or an opposing tinker to cause me to force pitching mystical.  With that in mind, why not have a tutor that can grab you a card to go off and win with?  You 99% of the time don't want to pitch these tutors as they precursor a win. 

[dicemanx]

So I tried a version of the CAB deck out in a tournament this past Saturday (reaching the finals of a 36 person event), and I have some thoughts to share. In my build I played Crazycarl's version but I used LoA over the Mana Vault, and I added a 61st card (the 3rd Duress) exactly as Toad and team CAB do. I think that this version is indeed superior to the Welder/Slaver/Pentavus build, which as far as I can tell sacrifices too many slots for cards that are only useful in specific situations and mainly useful once you have some measure of control over a game. I also don't like the fact that to play early Welders you commit yourself to fetching out Volcanics - this deck has clear mana issues and shouldn't be fetching so early like this for a non-basic land. If the idea is to hold back on Welders and not commit your mana, then that just makes the Welders that much weaker. In any case, on to my observations:


1. I believe Toad/CAB is entirely correct that Colossus is a must include in this deck. He is also correct in saying that the opponent rarely if ever gets any turns when Colossus comes into play. In fact, throughout the whole day I never used Belcher or Severance once as my kill - if anything, they caused me to mull far too often if I saw one of the three kill cards in my hand. This led me to think that perhaps it's best to ditch the two cards - Belcher and Severance - and add more control/draw elements (specifically, I would add Duress #4 OR a Mind Twist and add Thirst #3). I know this is risky, but I was confidently removing Belcher/Severance against decks using Welders and StP, because by the time Colossus entered play I'd have an iron grip on the game. The downside to limiting yourself to just the Colossus is the increased risk in going for an early blind Tinker, but I rarely found myself in that situation against most of the control or aggro-control decks so far. I also understand that Belcher can kill the odd Welder or Meddling Mage, but again I view it as a trade-off: does one want the increased flexibility (win condition doubling as creature kill and draw improvement via the Severance) and the risk-free early kill attempts due to having a back-up kill, or have more control/card-draw cards to gain a better grip on the early game?

2. Going along with the increased black card count (3-4 Duress, and the suggestions that Vampiric might be preferred over Mystical), I think that one Swamp is an absolute must. There was at least one game where I was cut off from black via Wastelands because I kept cracking fetches for Underground Seas to Duress, and they kept getting Wasted. I also want to ensure that I have a black source if they resolve a Crucible + Waste so that I can comfortably fetch a Swamp if need be. This doesn't conflict with the idea that you must only play blue duals/Islands to get Mana Drain mana up on turn 2 - I wouldn't automatically be quick to fetch out a Swamp turn 1 to Duress and shaft myself for turn two by not having the Drain mana up. The extra swamp can also go some ways towards supporting 1-2 Cranial Extractions - I ran 2 in the SB but realized that this was a mistake, because reaching BB early enough was way too difficult against decks with a full complement of Wastes/Strip.  One last point: as far as Fetchlands are concerned, running a swamp might mean having to go with 4 Polluted Deltas over 2 Deltas/2 Strands (or at least 3 Deltas/1 Strand), but I think that this is an acceptable compromise.

3. LoA is *insane* in this deck. It won me at least two matches against control-combo and aggro-control decks because they didn't have or see any wastelands early enough. The *only* downside to this card is the fact that playing it first turn conflicts with getting the Drain mana up, but quite frankly I'd rather sacrifice the turn not dropping a blue dual/Island and draw my way into a win. Inclusion of LoA also supports the idea of incluing a Petal (see below).

4. I ran a Boseiju, but I have mixed feelings about this card. It didn't affect a single game that I played in the event, and I did get it out against other Mana Drain decks but I had control over the game by then. I'm starting to think that maybe it's better to just run the 4 Duress and Vamp with a Swamp replacing the Boseiju, and perhaps leave 1-2 Boseiju in the SB against slower control decks that don't run a full complement of Wastes (like the mirror or Slaver). However, since I didn't face a single mirror match all day, and disposed of the lone Control Slaver deck without relying on Boseiju, perhaps I am underestimating the card.

5. I also have mixed feelings about the main deck Phyrexian Furnaces. There is only one deck that I'd love to have them against, and that is Dragon (although they are decent against Salvagers too, but not amazing). Against everything else, they seemed far too slow - I even SBed them out against Control Slaver, because frankly I'd rather be stopping their card drawing via Duresses and REBs/Pyroblasts or Dart their Welders rather than having Furnaces mop up their graveyards after they resolve Thirsts or Intuitions. Against Oath it was the same story - nailing a Blessing or a random AK is not that stellar in comparison to making sure that their draw spells or Oath don't resolve in the first place. Nevertheless, I'd probably keep the Furnaces MD just because they cantrip and because they are synergistic with Thirst and Academy and because they are absolutely mandatory to stop WGD (you get pretty much destroyed otherwise game 1). I'm sure that they will factor in more the more I play this deck.

6. Lotus Petal - in many games I felt like I was a turn behind, and that my Mana Drains were not factoring in because I couldn't reach UU in time or had to fight through Wastelands if I didn't draw a combination of fetches and Islands as my first two lands. I often thought how much I'd want a Petal in the early going, especially when playing second. Now I'm not exactly sold on the card just because of this observation, as the Petal has obvious downsides including the need to sacrifice a business spell or a stable mana source for its inclusion. I'd have to experiment with this if I continue playing this deck, and I think it will be a welcome inclusion in order to deal with some of the faster combo decks or to limit opponent's options by at least *representing* a turn 1 Mana Drain against control.
 

[rvs]

The best version of the deck is the version that doesn't run Welders, or Belcher, but instead, just wins the damn game.

[Outlaw]

The best version of the deck is the version that doesn't run Welders, or Belcher, but instead, just wins the damn game.

I believe its hard to truly compare the two because they both play out differently.  The build that Andy, Ben and I run, typically runs like Control Slavery but with more Draw and a combo kill.  Both decks play differently and have different stress points that are weaknesses and points that they both excell at.  It would definitely take testing with Toad/CAB vs. SSB and agaisnt a wider gauntlet to truly see what deck is the "best" version, which is in my opinion just going to be metagame dependent.  Our version can play a turn 1 welder followed up by a turn 2 thirt for knowledge and win off slaving or throwing mutliple belcher activations / finding the severence after welding in the belcher.  We also have more outs vs. decks that remove win conditions, people tend to forget that Welders are massive 1/1 bodies that become lightning bolts every turn with friends.