Worse Than Fish 3.0

[Bardo]

Can someone explain why Brainstorm is often being dropped in Fish? Is it a casualty of card shaving?

[warble]

When you run Standstill as your draw power, Brainstorm looks terrible, plus you want that 1 mana for early disruption not card draw (think stifle versus brainstorm in fish . . .)

[kingcrown]

whatabout rootwater thief?
this card kills decks like oath or TPS,
it's blue and it cost 2 Mana...
I think this card should be controversial...

[Moxlotus]

Can someone explain why Brainstorm is often being dropped in Fish? Is it a casualty of card shaving?

Brainstorm helps card quality.  Fish decks don't play good cards, so they must use card quantity.

[Bardo]

When you run Standstill as your draw power, Brainstorm looks terrible, plus you want that 1 mana for early disruption not card draw

Yes, but there's only 4 Standstills in the deck, not 10. Brainstorm could be used to find a Standstill for turn 2 or dig for a turn 1 Chalice=0, or help find a Jitte or whatever when you need it. It doesn't seem wise to have to depend on your opponent breaking your Standstill to draw cards. Especially if Vial become more popular and creatures are getting onto the board under Standstill--not that that's terribly relevant for now.

[[supa_t(im)]]

When you run Standstill as your draw power, Brainstorm looks terrible, plus you want that 1 mana for early disruption not card draw

Yes, but there's only 4 Standstills in the deck, not 10. Brainstorm could be used to find a Standstill for turn 2 or dig for a turn 1 Chalice=0, or help find a Jitte or whatever when you need it. It doesn't seem wise to have to depend on your opponent breaking your Standstill to draw cards. Especially if Vial become more popular and creatures are getting onto the board under Standstill--not that that's terribly relevant for now.

If they don't break standstill you win.  If they do break standstill you get cards.  I'm not seeing a downside here.  Ninja also gives cards, so there is another way to find those cards you need.

[And11]

Gratz on the high finish

Your deck reminded me of mine. I've played it in my local meta with great succes. It might not have any relevance, but check it out and tell me what your deck does better than mine. Personally, I think the white cards are impossible to leave out, but hey! green beats rocks as well and can handle other "random aggro" (no offence FCG players )

4x Æther Vial (Key card)
4x Grim Lavamancer (Welders, evasion with Curiosity)
4x Meddling Mage (Sweet disruption)
4x Voidmage Prodigy (Powerful control tool + beatz)
4x Gorilla Shaman (Mana denial)
4x Ninja of the Deep Hours (draw)
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
4x Force of Will
3x Stifle (Mana denial)
4x Swords to Plowshares (Exalted/DSC etc.)
4x Wasteland (denial)
1x Strip Mine

4x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
4x Volcanic Island
1x Island

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Pearl
1x Lotus Petal

Sideboard: 15
2x Sacred Ground (Mirror, CoW, Smokestack)
1x Balance (aggro)
3x Fire/Ice ("mirror")
3x Orim's Chant (Tendrils)
3x Rack and Ruin (Workshop)
3x Red Elemental Blast (Drain)

[rvs]

What about Gilded Drake? Also, wouldn't Kami of the Ancient Law be a better sideboard option for the deck than Ray? It seems more synergetic, and I doubt the flashback option from Ray really matters.

[NCM]

Not sure if were just looking for a vanilla creature to replace Spiketail, but what about Flying Men?
1/1 with Evasion for U seems pretty good to replace Spiketail with
Plus,  he's just so cool to play with.  Any thought on this?

A (slightly) more convenient option is Gaea's Skyfolk.  It's a 2/2 flier that can be vialed out when vial is set at 2, making it a great thing to have.  Although, the deck is a bit light on counters, so I'm on the fence about cutting Spiketail for it.

Mike Long is a tad mana-heavy though it's effect is crippling.  Gilded Drake is *savage* anti-Oath tech, but the deck already has a way to deal with Akroma (Wild Mongrel) and Ancient Hydra(/Trike) can shoot you and then itself in response.  Drake can also steal Platz0r, but they can Weld it in response and there most likely won't be anything you can do about it (**cough*Needle*cough**).  Cloud doesn't have enough synergy with Vial to merit a great amount of value.  Kai may be an additional source of counters, but, as mentioned before, there will only be him and no one else.  If you want counters, I would stick with Spiketail.

The changes I plan to make with this deck once I begin testing are as follows:

-1 Black Vise (very random)
-1 Spiketail
+2 Kira

and maybe:

-3 Spiketail
+3 Skyfolk

As for the Standstill v. Brainstorm, look at this thread.  It discusses the issue.

[pG]

yo jorlove me and thissa have been playing ug fish before it was cool:D when i looked at the deck i was actully surprised i saw a list like it in that GP DC it was UG fish/madness sorta thing alot like it Flying men and Rootwater theif are both better then spiketail hatchling.
The blackvice is so random i dont see the point, and chalice of the void doesnt seem amazing.. its like running wrath in white weenie.. doesnt seem very synergenic is a deck that is usally winning most of its games on synergy, i LOVE the vials they are so good, what ever happened to River boa isnt he a beating??
- Your Hero

[ChaosTheory]

Chalice is amazing.
It can single handedly win you games when playing against combo, and you drop it 1'st turn, as combo will slow considerably when it doesn't have most of it's artifact mana.
Anything that relys on alot of artifact mana like Moxen, Lotus, Crypt gets hurt alot when chalice comes down on turn 1, then you follow with mongrel, jitte, rootwalla or something absurd like that
And since I actually read Aether Vial right, I realize why Flying men isn't a great idea after all.
See, since I'm proxying them, I looked at what it did on SCG, then started playing.
With most cards that have counters, you usually remove the counter, but no, not with the Vial.
OMG, that card is even more broken to me now!!!!!!
I now leave it at 2 counters (rather than removing them every time I use the card) and bam. Most of my creatures come out for free.
Gaea's Skyfolk seems like it would be a good idea, but I like the Spiketial as well.
It allows you to catch your opponent off guard with it's ability.
Only testing will tell, but both seem like good choices, depending on whether you want to go more of a control route, or beatdown route.

Jacob: Your my hero, not only have you broken Jitte in Type 1, but Aether Vial too, now that I read it right And i'm also playing something other than combo, and I enjoy it at the same time

PS: Why the hell was I able to get 3 Jittes in one day, but I can't get a single Aether Vial Stupid Vials
Now I need vials and ninjas to finish the deck, but yet, I have all the best stuff. Jitte, FOW

[urza23]

I know this build is not U/G, but it still has some similar card choices.
I like this build for it control nature thats all.
U/W
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded strand
4 Wasteland
1 Strip mine
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Mox U/W
1 Black Lotus
1 Ancestral
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Aether Vial
4 Icatian Javalineers
4 Meddling Mage
3 Flying men
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Spiketail Hatchling

I just want to say that Jitte is amazing in this deck. It alone wins games. Also The flying men are quality. 1/1 for U with flying. its a quick drop and in the late game with a Jitte and counters on the Jitte it is so good. The Javalineers are for the welders and anything small enough to ping.
As for Chalice I see no need for it. I rather have it as a Sb card for combo than Mb.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Chalice isn't just a anti combo card.  It stops whatever it is that your opponent has to threaten the deck.  Set for 0 on turn 1 can really swing tempo in your favor even against control.  Set to target other spells like Oath (2) and welder (1) can really help the game plan.  Especially with vial in play.

Chalice is a key component to the deck, since you can't rely on FoW and soft counters all the time.

[jpmeyer]

Chalice is a Null Rod that costs no mana.

[urza23]

How many Chalices should be run then 2 or 3? 4 is way too many, how may is everyone else playing?

[[supa_t(im)]]

Chalice is a Null Rod that costs no mana.

and even prevents moxen from being welded by never letting them hit the table.  In a way, better than null rod.

How many Chalices should be run then 2 or 3? 4 is way too many, how may is everyone else playing?

WTF can run 4 because of wild mongrel.  Withought mongrel, I suppose 3 would be a good number.

[Blitzbold]

You mean Voidmage Prodigy. Voidmage Apprentice is the morph Wizard.

Sorry for my mistake. The idea of Kai flashed in my mind, but I did not concentrate when I wrote it down.

While you can do some nice tricks with Kai en Vials, but because there are no other wizards in the deck, it's always one time only. I don't think that Kai belongs here.

Ape.

Even in Gay-r one often rather sacrificed Kai himself instead of a Grim Lavamancer.

Some considerations:
- When compared to Spiketail Hatchling Kai counters more reliably, but requires free mana.
- The Hatchling is a nice tempo-card, though.
- Hatchling has evasion and is therefore a slightly better Ninjutsu-enabler (though this should not matter that much in Type 1). Evasion might also matter when collecting counters on Jitte.
- Kai beats for 2.

So is Kai better than Hatchling? Though I thought he might be a nice alternative, he probably does not fit that good at all.

If the Hatchlings are to be replaced it has to be another blue creature to keep the number of blue cards total. It also should have a cc of 2 because of the Vial. I can't think of a 2-power, 2-cc blue creature with flying besides Gaea's Skyfolk, which was already mentioned above. It hits harder than Hatchlings, but lacks their disruptive element. Hopefully I'll find some time to test them both during the next week.

[karlake]

If the Hatchlings are to be replaced it has o be annother blue creature to keep the number of blue cards total. I also should have a cc of 2 because of the Vial. I can't think of a 2-power, 2-cc blue creature with flying besides Gaea's Skyfolk, which was already mentioned above. It ita harder than Hatchlings, but lacks their diruotive element. Hopefully I'll find some time to test them both during the next week.

Why not Aquamoeba?

[Moxlotus]

How many Chalices should be run then 2 or 3? 4 is way too many, how may is everyone else playing?

You need 4 because you want to see it in your opening hand every single game.

[[supa_t(im)]]

How many Chalices should be run then 2 or 3? 4 is way too many, how may is everyone else playing?

You need 4 because you want to see it in your opening hand every single game.

I'm not sure that is true, after all, the original Gay/r only ran 3 null rod.  Wouldn't this be a similar situation?  Running 4 is probably the best option, but I'm just wondering about the null rod thing.

[Hatt0ri Hanz0]

while they function simiarly, the strongest play you want to make with chalise is droping it first turn before they get their moxes up, and at 0 it differs alot from null rod which in fish, w/o moxes or lotus cant come up before turn 2.

It would seem the strength of droping a first turn chalise at 0 warrents running a full set. For people who have been playing, how often do you find that going seccond you dont have a chance to drop a chalise before all their jewlery has hit the board?

[Jacob Orlove]

Wow, lots of stuff to respond to.

First of all, if you aren't running at least 3 chalice (with 4 being correct), you will lose to Gifts (and similar decks). The only way to keep those decks from winning is to hammer their mana, and Chalice is by far your best weapon there. If they can cast their spells, then it doesn't matter what cool creatures you have, or what tech you squeezed in, you will lose. 4 Gorilla Shaman might be an exception to this, but I suspect you'll have a hard time hitting enough moxes early enough to matter, espcially since you're either getting it out turn 2 with vial, or spending your early mana on other creatures.

Brainstorm is a card I have run in WTF before, and I will probably test it out in here again. I wouldn't cut four of something to make room for 4, but I may be able to squeeze in a few. It will help a bit with opening hand variance, but it'll also be nice on turn 3-4, when you often have a few extra lands in hand.

Rootwater Thief is an option, but it doesn't really help your other creatures kill your opponent. Getting in one or two hits will rarely just win the game, so you have to compare the turns it buys you with the turns you'd get from a better creature (especially one that doesn't make mongrel weaker by requiring a ton of land on the table).

Gilded Drake is something I haven't really tested, but it's basically a two card trade (drake ane one of my other guys) for one of their creatures. Unless we're talking about Akroma or DSC, I'd rather have jitte.

Ray is very nice vs oath, precisely because of the flashback. I can either run it into a counter and then take out oath anyway, or I can deal with the first oath, and force him to find a way to deal with the ray again while he finds the next oath. Basically, I can race oath if they're running angels, but I have a lot of trouble if they either get an early oath, or they get hydra/trike going. Ray helps avoid the latter two better than Kami. Basically, Kami is best when they have no oaths for me to kill, but that's when I least need help in the matchup. With that said, Rays may leave the SB depending on the individual metagames I face and the other cards I need to add.

Aquamoeba is a one-power creature that lets me discard one card a turn to get a free shock. I'd rather just run the Skyfolk.

The only time I was fully satisfied with a Chalice 0 on the draw was when my opponent's first turn was Loa, go.

River Boa just isn't as good as the green creatures I already run, sadly.

I think that's everything.

[Nastaboi]

Because there are next to no spells at 1 CC, you can drop a second Chalice at 1 because you'll have a Vial down by then. That is why I don't think Brainstorms are needed, because you can no more set Chalice for one so blindly. It will still disrupt your opponet more than you, but it is a bit more antisynergistic. Then again, with Vial you don't autolose to Chalice for 2 on the opposing side.

[Duncan]

i tested the deck for a while and i also saw that a chalice for 1 can be very useful. It doesn't ruin your own cards as much..

[Gabethebabe]

Could Regrowth in stead of the Black Vise be a good idea.

I know that everybody says that Regrowth is so damn slow, but maybe not in this deck.

With vial out, you can regrow a critter and play it for free. You can Regrow a Chalice that was Duressed, countered or destroyed. The fact that your deck has lotsa cards that come down for zero mana makes Regrowth maybe viable. In the early game you can Regrow a strip, I don´t see anything slow with that. Regrow a FoW in a deck that draws lotsa (blue) cards but only has 4 hard counters doesn´t appears slow to me at all.

[Jacob Orlove]

Chalice 1 can be fine, but it really doesn't help the deck do much of anything. I'd much rather reshuffle the second chalice with a brainstorm/fetch than occasionally drop a random chalice 1.

Regrowth has to compete for slots with additional Jittes and Brainstorms, and I just don't think it's worth it in that case.

[GoblinDirigible]

I think one people might not be understanding is that WTF is a classic tempo deck, in the style of RDW, where U/W is more of an aggro/prison deck, and cards that are amazing in UW Fish, like Rootwater Thief and Voidmage Prodigy, just don't make the cut here.  Your gameplan with WTF is purely to slow down the other player with mana denial, while cost-efficient creatures put them in a position they can't recover from.  If you're holding back mana to activate Thief or use VMP, you're not going to be able to apply the pressure you need to keep your opponent from switching to a beatdown role.  Poor Cost-to-Power ratio in a deck that doesn't want the Prison elements fish has is the same reason Flying Men would be terrible in the deck, and why Spiketail Hatchling isn't pulling it's weight here.

[Discozombie]

Instead of brainstorm have you thought about trying Mirri's Guile

Mirri's Guile 

G
 
Enchantment         

During your upkeep, you may look at the top three cards of your library and put them back in any order

good synergy with standstill since you are not having to cast it each turn, plus with vial the mana cost vs. lack of immediate effect is not as relevant

Another thought is to use Riptide Mangler in your slot that you have the spiketails in.

Riptide Mangler 

U1

Creature - Beast [0/3]     

: Change Riptide Mangler's power to target creature's power. (It doesn't change back at end of turn.)

For U1 you can make its power the same as a pumped up Mongrel or you can take out a DSC by blocking it, change its power to a Jitte equipped creature power once the counters are popped and it is pumped up. 

Swing with Mongrel with Jitte with 2 counters on it and Mangler, pop counters, Mongrel is 6/6, drop some cards, Mongrel is now 9/9, pay U1, mangler is now also a 9/3 and will stay that way next turn.  18 points to the dome plus 2 from mongrel before=dead.

Gives the deck a much faster clock and  ways to deal with really big threats.

[Dozer]

Another thought is to use Riptide Mangler in your slot that you have the spiketails in.

Riptide Mangler 
U1
Creature - Beast [0/3]     
: Change Riptide Mangler's power to target creature's power. (It doesn't change back at end of turn.)

For U1 you can make its power the same as a pumped up Mongrel or you can take out a DSC by blocking it, change its power to a Jitte equipped creature power once the counters are popped and it is pumped up.

I am no Fish/WTF-player, so I can't really comment on the Mangler. It looks interesting, but a bit mana intensive. However, I *am* a DSC player, and as such, I'd like to remind you that DSC is indestructible. Taking out a DSC by blocking it is highly unlikely, to say the least.

Dozer

[Jacob Orlove]

My gut instinct is that the mangler isn't strong enough on its own to bother with--it's going to be situationall great, sure, but those situations are too rare or too win-more to really matter.

Mirri's Guile is garbage.