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Author Topic: Black Fish  (Read 29516 times)
waSP
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« Reply #150 on: July 23, 2005, 10:29:42 pm »

Sorry, my post was a little flighty.¬  I had a general construction for it that I abandoned halfway through.

Dark Ritual enables early plays that can be devastating, but do you need to devastate early?¬  The only card I really want turn 1 instead of turn 3 that costs more than 1 is Negator.¬  Everything else can come out in due time.¬  Are you going to be speed obsessed or consistency concerned?

I'll just let you know how I'm testing it and what I've found.

I'm playing a build with blue to run Ninja (and Chains).¬  I don't know if Ninja is necessary, yet.¬  He might just be a lot of worse than Negator.¬  I'm running Cabal Therapy and Nezumi Shortfang.¬  The Cutthroat won me a game Graverobber would not have won.¬  His Rack ability is VERY useful and does come up if the game lasts.¬  I think it's just a matter of how much control you play in the deck.

There should be no card that goes into the deck no questions asked.¬  Some cards may have very simple answers to questions (like you play a Swamp for sure.. etc.).¬  The number of some cards is questionable.¬  Playing Dark Ritual makes your deck less consistent and more powerful.¬  What I want you to do is ask yourself what a Ritual opening usually does for you.¬  Then ask what a non-ritual opening does for you.¬  Which games that you lost without Ritual would have been won with Ritual.¬  Which games you won with Ritual would have been lost without Ritual.¬  That sort of questioning leads you to draw strong conclusions about your deck.¬  I've found that the only thing I really need to do in the first turn is Waste a land or Duress my opponent.¬  If I don't have an aggro hand (2-3 creatures, enough mana, and Jitte), I won't keep a hand without disruption.¬  It's just too vital.

I don't know how much play style enters into the results of this deck.¬  I've been having good results against bad opponents.¬  It's hard to find good ones.¬  I'll let you know if anything happens that is relevant.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 12:03:52 am by waSP » Logged

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« Reply #151 on: July 24, 2005, 12:18:40 pm »

played a version  of this deck at my stores  weekly tourny yesterday. only  "big" decks that were there  were  food chain goblins and a  3 color  keeper  deck  .....lost  in the finals to  fcg  due to me not having a completed sideboard (couldnt find engineered plagues before the tournament). overall the deck is really consistent  , kinda vulnerable to  null rod and pithing needle  tho  and needs some kind of answer to  artifact and  enchantment  hoser-type cards.
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« Reply #152 on: July 24, 2005, 06:21:51 pm »

@absolute

"Only 2 decks are made to kill fiend, fish and r/g beats. In this specific situation the fish/beats player killing your 1/1's over the 2/2's and 5/5 Negator's is a horrible move. Neither deck runs more than 7 hard counters, so the justification behind fiend remains, as it will not help to further their game plan just to get a card back and see another, much larger threat return to the field. Situational? The best I can say is that it will win you games that were otherwise in your opponents favor, especially combo matchups. "

there is more than one way to 'kill fiend', he can still be bounced if the card is necessary. There are also a LOT more than 2 decks made to kill him.¬  Yeah, it can win you games, but if the hymm takes the right cards, you can completely mana screw them, or take away key cards that made them keep the hand in the first place.¬  Heck, i almost want to build a deck with both....

"Negator is a kill condition, where hymn will neither deal a point of damage, nor does it have the ability to block opposing threats. Also, if you haven't noticed, most of the builds mentioned do not run negator as a 4 of, and rely more heavily on jitte to win games. Graverobber seems to be less of a threat than skirge does, because the skirge can fly over blockers, and provides more useful as a beatstick. Also, earlier on testing proved in the matches that mattered most... graverobber would be more useful unflipped the whole game, allowing for an attack and the removal of possible threats (lets be serious...graverobbers secondary ability hardly ever proves useful). "

Say what u will, but negator is still risky. Against combo/control he does his thing almost too good, but any damage or creature block and ouch. I am not saying not to play him, just that it can be risky.¬  Skirge seems nice though, especially with jitte.¬  Also, did you forget the first and second rule of vintage club?? dont ever talk about graverobbers second abilty. haha, but flipped, he is still a 4/2 and it gives you something to do with your mana if you dont draw the card you need(paying the 2 mana...)


Dystopia is a good card vs. fish sure enough, but it's a horrible card against oath. Most of the time the opposing player either counters it or lets it resolve, and brings out a creature that can't be dealth with ( making the dystopia a wasted investment). Paralyze/Imprison would be very good, except you're assuming that you will a)get it past counters and b)get a turn before colossus kills you (as gifts is set up to walk after tinkering up darksteel). The honest answer to dealing with workshop is a green or red splash, I haven't really found any other way to deal with the matchup (although, plague deals with goblins/slaver).

Dystopia is horrible against oath?????
Have you read the card?¬  How many creatures do you think oath decks run????¬  You put it out before you control a creature and they discard the oath that is in play(think dark rituals).¬  Or you keep them from playing oath.¬  In all honesty though, first turn mox orchard oath usually means you lose, hence my suggestion again for imprison/paralyze.  Yes the cumulative life sucks, but with negators and skirge and jittes............u can still win the race, also if they are forced to hold the oath, your fiends can do their thing.¬  ¬  ¬ How much disruption is in this deck??? and you are worried about getting a one casting cost card resolved(paralyze/imprison)???¬  Also, I thought we were trying to keep it mono black, otherwise we will go on sooo many tangent colors.¬  The possiblities are too many.


"Chains has been the equivalent to a black standstill, there has been no argument as to whether or not to play it, the question is how many.... "

yes, there has.¬  It is not in every maindeck build,¬  where i feel it is most useful.¬  It seems im not the only one.¬  And try this, with¬  chains in play you could play sensei's diving top and not be affected(provided you dont draw the card.¬  2 tops max in the deck might help to smooth things out, just a suggestion, not a recommendation.¬  Im still kinda new to formatting posts, so i doubt this will come out looking ok....
« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 06:27:48 pm by madmanmike25 » Logged

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« Reply #153 on: July 24, 2005, 11:35:31 pm »

@absolute

"Only 2 decks are made to kill fiend, fish and r/g beats. In this specific situation the fish/beats player killing your 1/1's over the 2/2's and 5/5 Negator's is a horrible move. Neither deck runs more than 7 hard counters, so the justification behind fiend remains, as it will not help to further their game plan just to get a card back and see another, much larger threat return to the field. Situational? The best I can say is that it will win you games that were otherwise in your opponents favor, especially combo matchups. "

there is more than one way to 'kill fiend', he can still be bounced if the card is necessary. There are also a LOT more than 2 decks made to kill him.  Yeah, it can win you games, but if the hymm takes the right cards, you can completely mana screw them, or take away key cards that made them keep the hand in the first place.  Heck, i almost want to build a deck with both....

Hymn is never nice to me, and fiend has legs/costs 1B, making it my discard effect of choice. Another permanent has meant game vs. stax, a creature to block has been game vs. fish, and it almost always screws with your opponents perspective. If they invest 3-4 mana to bounce fiend, I'm more than willing to give them the card back just to vial in another fiend, or duress them the next turn.

"Negator is a kill condition, where hymn will neither deal a point of damage, nor does it have the ability to block opposing threats. Also, if you haven't noticed, most of the builds mentioned do not run negator as a 4 of, and rely more heavily on jitte to win games. Graverobber seems to be less of a threat than skirge does, because the skirge can fly over blockers, and provides more useful as a beatstick. Also, earlier on testing proved in the matches that mattered most... graverobber would be more useful unflipped the whole game, allowing for an attack and the removal of possible threats (lets be serious...graverobbers secondary ability hardly ever proves useful). "

Say what u will, but negator is still risky. Against combo/control he does his thing almost too good, but any damage or creature block and ouch. I am not saying not to play him, just that it can be risky.  Skirge seems nice though, especially with jitte.  Also, did you forget the first and second rule of vintage club?? dont ever talk about graverobbers second abilty. haha, but flipped, he is still a 4/2 and it gives you something to do with your mana if you dont draw the card you need(paying the 2 mana...)

It's mainly my personal preference and what I test against. I've hardly ever seen graverobbers flip, and I've never been satisfied drawing him over negator in most matchups. Negator has treated me well, but I can see the argument that he is the single 'weakest' choice in the deck. Having it mainboarded will lose you matchups which should have been won outright. If I added a color to the deck, negator would be the first to go, there is no arguing that point.

Dystopia is a good card vs. fish sure enough, but it's a horrible card against oath. Most of the time the opposing player either counters it or lets it resolve, and brings out a creature that can't be dealth with ( making the dystopia a wasted investment). Paralyze/Imprison would be very good, except you're assuming that you will a)get it past counters and b)get a turn before colossus kills you (as gifts is set up to walk after tinkering up darksteel). The honest answer to dealing with workshop is a green or red splash, I haven't really found any other way to deal with the matchup (although, plague deals with goblins/slaver).

Dystopia is horrible against oath?????
Have you read the card?  How many creatures do you think oath decks run????  You put it out before you control a creature and they discard the oath that is in play(think dark rituals).  Or you keep them from playing oath.  In all honesty though, first turn mox orchard oath usually means you lose, hence my suggestion again for imprison/paralyze.  Yes the cumulative life sucks, but with negators and skirge and jittes............u can still win the race, also if they are forced to hold the oath, your fiends can do their thing.     How much disruption is in this deck??? and you are worried about getting a one casting cost card resolved(paralyze/imprison)???  Also, I thought we were trying to keep it mono black, otherwise we will go on sooo many tangent colors.  The possiblities are too many.

Oath decks run 2 creatures, one is white (before boarding), and one is black. Provided you might actually be able to play ritual---> Dystopia, they will stack the oath to bring out a creature then sacrifice it, leaving you to deal with a 6/6 or 6/5 flyer. The oath deck has 12-14 counters, 8 of which can be active their first turn. Against fish there are 7 counters...4 being hard counters, and 3 leaving you to bait for a turn, or play out the 'chance game'. The point being, it's much harder to resolve dystopia vs. oath, and it can still be moved around provided they sideboard correctly, or have read either card. Imprison/paralyze was a suggestion I said was probably not so great vs. gifts, which is a much more prevalent deck right now. In that situation, they will either bounce the paralyze, or play walk so that you cannot even enchant the darksteel. And as far as relolving anything, I am not worried about it, this deck has a decent game vs. most non-aggro decks. On the subject of keeping the deck mono black....it's my belief the deck cannot survive the full gauntlet without adding a color. Take that however you want to, it just doesn't have the answers it needs to swing some matches in it's favor.

"Chains has been the equivalent to a black standstill, there has been no argument as to whether or not to play it, the question is how many.... "

yes, there has.  It is not in every maindeck build,  where i feel it is most useful.  It seems im not the only one.  And try this, with  chains in play you could play sensei's diving top and not be affected(provided you dont draw the card.  2 tops max in the deck might help to smooth things out, just a suggestion, not a recommendation.  Im still kinda new to formatting posts, so i doubt this will come out looking ok....

Since chains has been mentioned, and tested I have been using 3, and haven't looked back . Top is quite amazing as a first turn play or for consistancy smoothing as well.
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« Reply #154 on: July 25, 2005, 10:15:21 am »

I am starting to like top/chains over whisper, anyone else tried it??  Any yes, i believe 3 maindeck chains is key, allowing it to trigger multiple times if resolved/casting another one if countered/another permanent to sack to negaor or stax.  Can we all agree on 3?
Yeah, i reallize dystopia isnt optimal against some oath builds.  But against the ones with salvager it is better(with wretch out), im just sayin it is a useful card in the sideboard, obviously against mongrels and walla's, but in a pinch might help.  Thats why i say 3 in the side.
since vials are in the deck, fiends seem better than hymns, its just that they are such trike bait, in addition to the negators.  Im just tryin to make suggestions here, as i have numerous other decks to test(im working on a mono red with all the moxen, and yes i have an answer for DSteel).  So are there any other reports?
The best thing about mono black is your best spell to drain costs 3.  go go gadget duress
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« Reply #155 on: July 26, 2005, 02:04:51 pm »

go go gadget duress

I just KNEW this was going to happen after Kowal made the Workshop comment on SCG. I've personally been resisting turning this into a tacky piece of lingo because the original phrase made me smile. Please, for the love of God, let's not say this about EVERYTHING whenever we have a card to talk about. At least Workshops have something mechanical about them.
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« Reply #156 on: July 26, 2005, 06:41:30 pm »

just one question... how is this "fish?" I see a controllish version of suicide black... not that that label really works either, but please... not even an island and you're calling it "fish"?

I've been off the game for over a year... when did fish stop being merfolk again? Smile
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« Reply #157 on: July 26, 2005, 09:53:50 pm »

I've been off the game for over a year... when did fish stop being merfolk again? Smile

1998.
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« Reply #158 on: July 27, 2005, 09:38:04 am »

go go gadget duress

I just KNEW this was going to happen after Kowal made the Workshop comment on SCG. I've personally been resisting turning this into a tacky piece of lingo because the original phrase made me smile. Please, for the love of God, let's not say this about EVERYTHING whenever we have a card to talk about. At least Workshops have something mechanical about them.

I dont know who Kowal is and i have used that multiple times as i used to watch the show.¬  Why dont you make a comment about the deck instead of a comment about a phrase?? or go somewhere else
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« Reply #159 on: July 27, 2005, 11:52:44 am »

I haven't commented about the deck yet because I haven't been testing it like everyone else here has, so everything I offer is based in theory except for the dozen or so test games a friend of mine ran it against Stax for. That's not exactly a huge sample size to offer something constructive. I will say that the only game he won was on the back of me drawing land for six straight turns while Skittering Skirge did a little dance on my ugly mug. And even after those six turns, I still had outs.

Oh, and then I beat him with U/W fish.

The fact that I'm actually in here reading all the posts should've clued you in to the fact that I'm not just Lingo Policing. I've been watching this deck's development. Should I have pitched in more? No. I don't play the deck, I don't know how to play the deck, I shouldn't be telling people who play the deck what should go in the deck. Does that mean I shouldn't be observing, because I'm not contributing? No. And if something comes up outside the scope of the deck, I see no reason why I shouldn't comment.

I don't want to hijack this thread, because you're doing some wonderful work, but did anyone else feel like I shouldn't comment? I'm perfectly happy to bow out to public opinion if unbiased eyes say that it's inappropriate.
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« Reply #160 on: July 27, 2005, 10:58:48 pm »

Just a quick suggestion: has anyone tried Nether Void at all? It seems like a good card to 'seal the deal' if you will. Maybe instead of Chains?
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« Reply #161 on: July 27, 2005, 11:33:08 pm »

   why would you waste time sealing the deal when you could be winning with the chains? the nether void would sit in your hand forever, dead until you lay a bunch of stuff and then play it. its like a really bad, completely symmetrical standstill.
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« Reply #162 on: August 02, 2005, 04:27:58 pm »

¬  ¬ why would you waste time sealing the deal when you could be winning with the chains? the nether void would sit in your hand forever, dead until you lay a bunch of stuff and then play it. its like a really bad, completely symmetrical standstill.

And thus with aether vials become a little bit more broken, yes?
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« Reply #163 on: August 02, 2005, 05:02:34 pm »

Do you ever run into problems with simply not having enough mana to power Withered Wretch? I ask because one of the sleeper hosers I always like to keep an eye on is Planar Void, and looking at the top 8 of Chicago, I was again reminded of what a monkey wrench it can be for a single black mana. Is there simply no room?
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« Reply #164 on: August 06, 2005, 10:30:45 am »

I don't think the Planar Void is really needed with the vial most of your mana stays free after the initial set up and then powering the Wretch is no problem sure Void is a good card but one that can also swing is even better...Also has anyone considered Coretapper for the deck?

Coretapper can:
Speed up the vial to 3 for Skyhunter Skirmisher/Kira
Pump up the chalice
Pump up the Jitte for a faster kill

as you see it can be a pretty powerful card esp for the sheer fact that in one turn you can deal an extra 6 damage if that would be fatal or just an extra 2 if you wanna save him for later.  With a trampler and a flier getting this damage through shouldn't be a problem either.
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« Reply #165 on: September 17, 2005, 07:21:21 pm »

i also think coretapper could be a good inclusion in this deck. With it you could pump up vial, jitte, an also chalices. corretapper fits really well in the curve ( cost 2) so it could be ''viald'' easilly. corretapper could also be usefull vs opponents chalices. You simply add counters to opponents chalices in order to counter his own spells.

i have a few questions about the deck.

1.why not playing necroptence? itseems to me that with dark rituals and chains it could be good.
2. did you saw te card in the new ravnica set : dark confident?

dark confident
1B
at the begginning of your uppkeep reveal the first card of your librairy. put this card into your hand and looselife equal to the cards converterted mana cost.
2-1

this cards also fits the curve ( so could be viald easilly. it has a decent power ( 2 for 1b) an gets youcards without triggering the chains ability.


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« Reply #166 on: September 18, 2005, 01:20:22 am »

I know I'm replying to a huge necro, but I thought that this would be a good time to talk about lists with Confidant since the topic is already on the front page.

Is everyone playing Confidant, and if they are, what are they cutting for him?¬  I have cut down to Wretches, Fiends, Negators, and Confidants as my creatures, and I don't play Vial.¬  I also play 4 Chains, as there is no real excuse not to play them now that there is an engine to go with it. Confidant is working out great for me.¬  I'm not sure if people have been playing this or not, but I have gone to a full set of Moxen, and they are great.¬  With Jitte, Negator, Fiend, Confidant, and Chains all requiring colorless, they fit right in.¬  Honestly, I think this deck is shaping up really really nicely, and every slot looks very good to me.

maxx:¬  Coretapper is bad because:
A) It doesn't get active with something to affect till turn 3
B) You don't always have Jitte
C)¬  At best, it tap/sacs for 6 damage with another creature and an active Jitte.
D) Your Chalice stays at zero
E)¬  There is nothing worse to cut
F)¬  Some people are cutting Vial

Edit:  Mods, lock this if you don't feel like this is worth continuing the necro for.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2005, 01:24:19 am by Das_Boot » Logged

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« Reply #167 on: September 18, 2005, 10:16:08 am »

why did you stopped playing vial? imean that if you  change them for moxen you will be really in bad position for playing a 0 chalice.
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« Reply #168 on: September 18, 2005, 11:34:20 am »

why did you stopped playing vial? imean that if you  change them for moxen you will be really in bad position for playing a 0 chalice.

Personally from playing these chalice/vial decks I've realized that vial and chalice are almost always dead cards after turn one or two. Moxes replace Aether vial. They add speed to the deck while weakening it's consistancy in both getting wretch into play and that creatures become couterable. It doesn't really matter if your own chalice cuts off future moxes you draw because you wont be drawing into dead vials, moxes, and chalices, but just dead moxes and chalices (which is the same number of dead cards in the chalice/vial version).

I think that playing 5 moxes instead of vials is the right call. It increases your ability to play all your creatures first turn (sans wretch) as well as chalices, chains, etc.

I think this deck needs 4 chains (and 4 dark confidants when those come out) if it wants to compete. Discard has always loss to random topdecks and draw cards.

In order to make this deck competative it seems as though it has so many situational cards (chalice, chains, negator, etc). This deck is definitely a strong metagame call.

This deck can't deal with creatures with 3 or more toughness.

Also I think I splash is needed (probably white). Swords and Disenchant/Seal give this deck answers to cards it simply rolls over and dies to right now.


As of right now this just seems inferior to the other aggro control decks.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2005, 11:36:36 am by Zomar » Logged

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« Reply #169 on: September 19, 2005, 07:45:19 pm »

I really hate the Negators in this deck, and if you're running the full 4 Vials, Skittering Horror is a cost-efficient 4/3 that is very decent.

Also, if you run Vial and Jitte, you get raped by the now-prevalent Null Rod. Black has NO answers to artifacts, so I'm not sure Jitte is the right call. I also think you need to run an Edict or two to deal with DSC. Just my thoughts, and I HAVE been testing this deck. The biggest point is definatly negator though.
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« Reply #170 on: September 19, 2005, 08:17:41 pm »

yeah negator is bad against almost every deck it seems.

either the 3/2 flying or the 4/3 skittering guy would be better.
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« Reply #171 on: September 19, 2005, 10:52:57 pm »

Wow, I had a really big post that got lost, but I will address the main points of it (in list style because that's fun)

-Negator is really really good against the extremely removal-light decks prevalent now, and it gives your opponent almost no time to randomly topdeck good stuff.¬  Control Slaver, Stax, and Gifts all have a really hard time dealing with it, and you can often coast on it to a win.¬  (Compare 1st turn Negator to 1st turn Skittering Skirge)

-Moxes are better than Vial in most environments, because not getting active until turn three is just too big a deterrent, and without Moxes Vial takes up your whole first turn many times, which is unimaginably horrible.¬  Jitte is also better than Vial, because it gives you an answer to cards that resolve (even ones with more than 3 toughness), and Null Rod really isn't that big of a concern.

-Tinker and tutors for it are this deck's biggest problem, and this is exacerbated by losing the die roll.¬  Shadow of Doubt has been excellent for me on the play (out of the SB), always excellent against Gifts, and a possible maindeck inclusion as having one in hand really really helps to seal up the game, plus it is cantripping LD.

-I don't think this is just inferior to other aggro-control because there really isn't any prominent aggro-control at the moment and because this deck really is powerful, card for card, and because Withered Wretch > the rest of Vintage.

-STP is certainly interesting, but what do you cut, and is adding it worth the stability loss?
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« Reply #172 on: September 20, 2005, 08:59:50 am »

I didn't read the whole 6 pages post but most of the answers and I think you maybe forgot to speak about one really good card that could be added in that deck.

Pithing Needle.

It can shut down any welder, lock like StripMine and CoW, but it can also be a threat when naming Polluted Delta (i.e) against any Controle deck. Can also shut down Bazaars, Triskelion and so on... you can named whatever you want¬  Smile

What do you think about it?
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« Reply #173 on: September 20, 2005, 01:48:02 pm »

Bit of a long read here but there were some very fun ideas.¬  I had been toying around with something similar and wrote up a list adding in a lot of the thoughts from this thread.¬ ¬ 
I really liked the interaction between chains and confidant and tried to set it up to optimize that. The highest mana cost MD is 2 and SB is 3.¬ ¬  I'm not sure how I like the collection of tutors though , mainly because of the life loss .¬  I wanted to keep them cheap and I didnt expect much of a tempo loss from vamp and imp. seal because of the 4 confidants.¬  It really hurt to take the negators out but the flow seems better now.¬  All the vials can be set to the same ammount and the loss of life (and permanents) will be lessened.¬ 
I am pretty happy with the level of disruption but am worried that the clock is not fast enough.¬  It's going to have problems with null rod and will absolutely die to cotv for one and two.¬  The sideboard is admitedly hodge podge but there are a lot of holes that the sideboard is going to have to plug.
*Armchair theorizing warning : I am at work at the moment so please understand that I have not had a chance to test it out.

cards at converted mana cost :
0 = 22
1 = 15
2 = 23

creatures : 16

4x mesmeric fiend
4x skittering skirge
4x withered wretch
4x dark confidant

tools: 11

4x aether vial
3x umezawa's jitte

disruption: 7

4x chalice of the void
4x duress
3x chains of mephistopheles

tutors:¬  3

1x vampiric tutor 
1x demonic tutor 
1x imperial seal¬ 

mana: 23

4x dark ritual
1x sol ring 
1x mox jet 
1x black lotus 
1x strip mine 
4x wasteland
11x swamp

----------
60

sideboard: 15

1x umezawa's jitte
1x crucible of worlds
2x cabal therapy
2x oppression
2x gate to phyrexia
3x engineered plague
4x diabolic edicts
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Nastaboi
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« Reply #174 on: September 20, 2005, 02:19:15 pm »

I can see no reason to play Imperial Seal over Demonic Consultation. Which one is better, the instant one that puts card you want in your hand, or the sorcery one that puts the card on top of the library and deals two to the head? Consultation isn't going to backfire unless you are going for Lotus, and if you ever happen to be in a situation where you want to Consult for Lotus Imperial Seal won't help you either.
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« Reply #175 on: September 20, 2005, 02:27:07 pm »

I think thats a very good call. I just have a bit of infatuation with the seal since I picked one up pretty cheap.¬  The only cards that are less than 3 of's in the list are restricted.¬ 

edit : That was not as clear as it should have been.¬  I agree that you are right.¬  I am switching it now and sleeving it up.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2005, 06:45:24 pm by twiggy » Logged
crazzykid81083
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« Reply #176 on: September 20, 2005, 09:41:30 pm »

I have built this deck and tweeked it as far as I can and I found the following to be great additions:
Ogree Mauraduer(sp)
why not equip him and use it if your opponent wants to block they loose a creature or two and the jitte still gets 2 counters.
Sword of fire and ice.
great draw and on something like ogree or negator, especially negator coming in for 9 damage and you get a card.
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« Reply #177 on: September 21, 2005, 02:05:11 pm »

Sword of fire and ice.
great draw and on something like ogree or negator, especially negator coming in for 9 damage and you get a card.

sword of fire and ice is far too slow especially when not playing full power. Jitte has a better set of abilities in most situations as well.
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« Reply #178 on: September 21, 2005, 05:55:53 pm »

I never said take the jitte out in my deck I cut 1 nights whisper and the necro for 2 sword of fire and ice. That and whats the point of necro, if your playing chalice anyways so you can pay life for a card you might not even be able to cast. Because of something you have on the table. Just seems like a waste of life and time in the deck from what I gathered play-testing. That and 3 mana for this deck isn't slow dark ritual solves that.
Best part of this deck is the fiend if aether vial is on the board with 2 counters he in your hand,there not going off.
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« Reply #179 on: September 21, 2005, 07:53:42 pm »

I've been running something that looks like this:
     
        2 Polluted Delta
        2 Bloodstained Mire
        5 Swamp
        3 Snow-Covered Swamp
        1 Bayou
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Wasteland
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Jet
        4 Dark Ritual
        4 Duress
        2 Unmask
        1 Contagion
        3 √Üther Vial
        3 Chalice of the Void
        2 Pithing Needle
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        3 Tainted Pact
        4 Mesmeric Fiend
        4 Withered Wretch
        3 Skittering Skirge
        3 Phyrexian Negator
        3 Umezawa's Jitte
SB:  3 Choke
SB:  1 Naturalize
SB:  1 Oxidize
SB:  1 Pithing Needle
SB:  3 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB:  3 Diabolic Edict
SB:  3 Bayou

Tainted Pact: I've found Tainted Pact to be completely superior to Night's Whisper. The biggest problem with pact was usually that you end up doubling up on swamps and fizzling out. That's not a problem with the manabase in this deck, and that's also why the Snow Covered Swamps are in there.

Unmask: It's really crucial to get 1st turn disruption off, so I experimented with running Unmask. It seems to have payed off so far, and you can pitch dead cards from Chalice to it if you need to. It's really nice to be able to rip their welder or monkey on turn 1, too.

Pithing Needle: This card started off in the sideboard and made its way into the main quickly. This card puts you in the running against Stax and Slaver, and just owns Charbelcher.

Contagion: Great against Welders, Mox Monkeys, and Fish and can often be fed by dead cards from Chalice.

The biggest problem I've had with the deck is that Mox Monkey + Welder owns you. They can trash your vials and Jitte's and completely wreck your tempo.
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