The Future of Workshop Aggro

[jeek]

Strawberry Crush content moved to http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=23523.msg363089

[Rico Suave]

First of all I've been doing playtesting with different versions of U/R Shop Aggro with 4 Brainstorms.  They've been an amazing help in several aspects of the deck(s).  First of all it's easier to keep opening hands with some reliable draw power in them, so I've been mulliganning less.  Second they make it easier to overwhelm opponents mid-game (assuming they dealt with the initial onlslaught)  This has all been tested with the same mana base, sporting 4 Volcanics and 3 Fetchs.

As far as the prison elements I've been trying/thinking about, it seems Tanglewire would be a strong option.  I'll start my explanation with the Metagame around here, it's nothing but Fish (of all styles and variants) and Control Slaver, also a healthy chunk of Oath.  And every deck I face seems to be running Tinker/Collossus.  Anyway, unless Chalice is set to 2, it will have negative effects on most Shop builds.  Granted by the shop player running chalices he can chose what to set them at after weighing out the consequences.  People are also gunning for Chalice, with Gorilla Shaman popping up more and more.

I've been running a lighter prison element featuring only 3 Tanglewires and 1 Trinisphere.  If more is needed, it's brought in for games 2 and 3.  The absence of Crucible may seem odd at first, epecially in a deck like mine that runs 5 Strip effects, but this isn't Stax, we really only need enough distruption to make sure our opponents don't get fancy and deal with our Juggs.

As for the Aggro portion, I might be biased by having run CS for so long, but Goblin Welder is just too sick to set down.  In my deck I'm running Sword of F/I, which can turn any creature in this deck into Batman (Even the Goblins)  Another element I've tried and enjoyed some success with is running Anger and Wonder.  By bringing haste and flying into a deck with beaters and Welders, sealing the deal can be very easy.  The only liablity here is that you need a Volcanic in play, and the only outlets are usually TFK and Masticore and to some extent Jar. 

One thing I enjoy when playing against Fish is the sheer threat density I have can usually overrun them.  Brainstorm makes a lot of that possible, making sure my hand is optomized for my plan.  In the past one thing I've hated about Shop decks is I have very little control over what cards are in my hand.

Well, Tangle Wire is certainly something that I had considered especially since it even taps down a player who uses basic lands, but Crucible is too good not to run in my opinion.  It is extremely effective against Fish's Wastelands, Mishra's Factories, and multi-colored mana bases.  It also is always a bonus to play, whereas Tangle Wire is a liability if they have more permanents.  I think if I wasn't concerned about opposing Crucibles, I would not run any myself, but playing Tangle Wire in the Shop mirror is nowhere near as powerful as playing Crucible.

Crucible provides stability for the mana base to boot, which is ultimately what the reason I prefer it over Tangle Wire.

What did you cut for Anger/Wonder?  Certainly having haste would greatly improve every match-up, but I don't want to cut anything for the same reasons I don't want to cut anything for Lightning Greaves, which offers haste AND protection AND is an artifact.   

[Mordred]

Mainly just Chalice and Cruicble is what I cut.  In playtesting it was performing good against CS and WTF, the following Friday I played it at a 5 proxy mox tournament and started with an average opening hand of 5.5 cards.

I thought by more draw power and threats, and less lock down components I'd be doing better as far as taking Mulls, but often the mana I had in my opening hands wasn't enough to support the beef.  That and the 2x Titans I ran showed up for the party when he wasn't invited, opening style...all night ><

It was an intersting build, I'm not setting it down, but she needs some work yet =)

[w00t3n4t0r]

Alright hopefully this post offers a little bit to the Aggro Workshop community. First in regards to Rico I'm sorry I ever doubted the power of the Fetches.  They are freaking amazing.  For whatever reason I think I was so preoccupied with Gilded lotus I could never see the true greatness of the fetch lands. I have been playing a build quite similar to yours minus a few changes that I think really push the deck in an amazing direction. I liked how the deck was built and how it seemed to be running, but like other builds such as 5/3 or other things the biggest problem was having Juggernauts fly into creatures and not being able to get in there for the last few points. Also, because of the presence of Uba Stax in my metagame I decided to cut/move the Razormanes to the SB atleast.  Now when SCG Rochester lists came down I saw Ugo Rivard's list of CS and really liked one card in his deck especially.  That card was none other than Lightning Greaves.  This card is a freaking house in this deck.  Like you said its an artifact, gives your guys haste, not to mention stops opposing welders and nullifying swords.  Speeding up Juggies and swinging in with Tinkered/Welder'd Sundering titans the turn they come in is amazing.  Not to mention moving them back to protect your own welders as well as give them haste is a house as well. The changes I made were -2 Razormane and -1 Trike and +3 Lightning Greaves. I like it a lot thus far and hope to smack a few people around with it.  It's really quite amazing. I like the build a lot, and I think Lightning Greaves pushes not only the deck in a positive direction, but the archetype as well.


-w00t3n4t0r@gmail.com or on AIM w00t3n4t0r

[Cross]

Both outlaw and I played this list in west springfield yesterday and made top 8. Outlaw was second and I lost in first round.

The changes that we used were: -4 brainstorm +2 rack and ruin +1 memory jar +1 gorilla shaman, and a different but similar sideboard.
I also couldn't afford the proxies and cut a mox for a vault.

I played:
Round 1: u/r sensei's top win 2-0
Round 2: 2 land belcher/meandeck sx win 2-0 (trini in the side so good)
Round 3: Rich Shay with gifts.dec lose 2-0 (mulled to 4 and kept a no land hand first game, second game was questionable plays I made, and he's Rich Shay)
Round 4: Black Agro win 2-1
Round 5: U/W fish ...finally ...win 2-0
Round 6: Grand Inquisitor with U/R Sensei's top win 2-1 (Game 3 was he had tinkered colossus and I pulled a pretty lucky tinker for dupe)
Round 7: ID
Top 8: lose to fish 2-1 due to oversideboarding and poor mulliganing choices,he played well and I kinda wanted to lose because it after 10 and I had a 3.5 hour drive to make and work at 8 this morning.  Also I won 18 packs and cracked a pithing needle in the first pack, also pulled a foil and regular thoughts of ruin which I guess is worth something(I don't play type 2, gimme a break).

Overall I think the deck is really excellent because it has both prison aspects and high threat density. You almost always have your oppenent with some sort of lock pice. Rack and ruin was a meta call because we expected workshops and fish, which it is great against. I would definitely not run damping matrix in my deck's sideboard next time because it was always an unnecessary crutch and it forced me to oversideboard. I also ran spawning pits in my board which was a poor choice, aether spell bombs splash against more decks while spawning pit is only for oath. In addition to space issues another reason we pulled out the brainstorms is because it reduces the 1cc spells in your deck, making chalice less painful. Chalice is an amazing card and was great against every deck I played today. I think if I could run 4 3spheres I wouldn't because chalice is way more ridiculous of a card. It's like constantly having force of wills for everything your opponent does.

I'm sure outlaw will have more to say as he both beat and lost to rich shay during this tourney, and played all the way up to second.

Edit: my list and some spelling errors

4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana vault
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus

4 Goblin Welder
4 Juggernaut
2 Razormane Masticore
2 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 gorilla shaman

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds

4 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Rack and ruin
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker

Sideboard:
1 Rack and Ruin
2 BEB
3 REB
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Damping Matrix
2 Spawning Pit
1 Trinisphere

[fitz712]

do you think force of will would be playable in this deck? is there enough blue to put it in?

[NWI Team_Zilla]

I know that there have been a few of you that have suggested adding black to the deck, but then also automatically reach for the rainbow mana base.  I think that adding black isn't a bad idea, maybe just 1 Demonic Tutor and 1 Vamperic Tutor. Then taking out 1 Thirst for Knowledge and 1 Triskellion.  From here, instead of going to the rainbow mana base, just switch around some dual lands and switch all your fetch lands to Polluted Delta(If your worried about Pithing Needle, I'm sure they will name Goblin Welder long before they will name the Delta).  Then take out 1 Island and replace it with either a Badlands or an Underground Sea, which ever works best.  I think the loss of one TFK is comparable considering we would be adding the brokenness and consistency bonus's of tutors.  And as for the loss of the Triskellion, now that you have tutors, you can get to it no problem.  Ohh, and I had a question about running the REB's in your SB.  I understand that they have usually been in MWS aggro deck since the begginning of time, but have you considered using 3 Defence Grid instead?
Just some thoughts,
Good luck with the deck.

[Jacob Orlove]

It's definitely possible to run a three color shop deck off duals and fetches: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=23589.0

The manabase I used there was:
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus

I had one game where I didn't see a black source for a ton of turns, and lost because I couldn't Will in time, but in general I was able to cast pretty much everything.

Also, I liked the Top a lot better than Brainstorm, because while it doesn't get rid of dead cards in your hand, it's still very useful even without a shuffle effect. And if you're using a build that runs welders, you can cantrip it whenever you weld it out.

[49 Cents]

Both outlaw and I played this list in west springfield yesterday and made top 8. Outlaw was second and I lost in first round.

The changes that we used were: -4 brainstorm +2 rack and ruin +1 memory jar +1 gorilla shaman, and a different but similar sideboard.
I also couldn't afford the proxies and cut a mox for a vault.

I played:
Round 1: u/r sensei's top win 2-0
Round 2: 2 land belcher/meandeck sx win 2-0 (trini in the side so good)
Round 3: Rich Shay with gifts.dec lose 2-0 (mulled to 4 and kept a no land hand first game, second game was questionable plays I made, and he's Rich Shay)
Round 4: Black Agro win 2-1
Round 5: U/W fish ...finally ...win 2-0
Round 6: Grand Inquisitor with U/R Sensei's top win 2-1 (Game 3 was he had tinkered colossus and I pulled a pretty lucky tinker for dupe)
Round 7: ID
Top 8: lose to fish 2-1 due to oversideboarding and poor mulliganing choices,he played well and I kinda wanted to lose because it after 10 and I had a 3.5 hour drive to make and work at 8 this morning.  Also I won 18 packs and cracked a pithing needle in the first pack, also pulled a foil and regular thoughts of ruin which I guess is worth something(I don't play type 2, gimme a break).

Overall I think the deck is really excellent because it has both prison aspects and high threat density. You almost always have your oppenent with some sort of lock pice. Rack and ruin was a meta call because we expected workshops and fish, which it is great against. I would definitely not run damping matrix in my deck's sideboard next time because it was always an unnecessary crutch and it forced me to oversideboard. I also ran spawning pits in my board which was a poor choice, aether spell bombs splash against more decks while spawning pit is only for oath. In addition to space issues another reason we pulled out the brainstorms is because it reduces the 1cc spells in your deck, making chalice less painful. Chalice is an amazing card and was great against every deck I played today. I think if I could run 4 3spheres I wouldn't because chalice is way more rridiculousof a card. It's like constantly having force of wills for everything your opponent does.

I'm sure outlaw will have more to say as he both beat and lost to rich shay during this tourney, and played all the way up to second.

Congratz! What list did you play exactly? And how DID your SB looked like then?

Greetz,

Hugo

[Outlaw]

If you read the post... It says the changes that I concocted for the deck and what we played.  I took the deck to 2nd for a Sapphire, sans I have a Sapphire I swapped it for an Ancestral (go me!).  Amazing deck, now the matter is that everyone will play it and there needs to be something to counter act New England Workshops??!?!?!

[Methuselahn]

What did you cut for Anger/Wonder?  Certainly having haste would greatly improve every match-up, but I don't want to cut anything for the same reasons I don't want to cut anything for Lightning Greaves, which offers haste AND protection AND is an artifact.   

I'll add to this.  This deck is all about disruption, fatties, and Mishra's Workshop.  Originally, the deck was much more hardcore, featuring Trinispheres and no Juggernaughts.  Lightning Greaves is just a bad card overall for this deck because one of the most core concepts is still board control.  It just dilutes the deck, really.

Fitz712, Force of Will is a bad card in the deck primarily because it wrecks your hand, and you are relying on proactive threats. Out of any of the counterspells, sideboarded Red Blasts were the best for me.  After that, Mana Leak, maybe.

It's definitely possible to run a three color shop deck off duals and fetches.
...
Also, I liked the Top a lot better than Brainstorm, because while it doesn't get rid of dead cards in your hand, it's still very useful even without a shuffle effect. And if you're using a build that runs welders, you can cantrip it whenever you weld it out.

While I'm not exactly sure of what 'definitely possible' means, I'm inclined to agree.

I had tested the Top in 'BFD'* and had found it a bit slow. Sure, it's not the same as your deck, but work with me here.  It's reusable, yet it gets hosed by Chalice and Null Rod. Brainstorm gets hosed by Chalice too, but costs colored mana, so you can probably debate that all day long.  The one thing that I think that makes Brainstorm truly better is that when you have no fast mana, you can still go Island, Brainstorm, Chalice for zero on your first turn.  The Top requires 1 mana to cast and 1 mana to actually get the Chalice.  Cantripping and welding seems rather weak in comparison to this advantage, to me.

To all of you that have won and done well with the deck, Congratulations!   

*This was the original deckname, which Rico named it so long ago and is how I will reference it in this thread because he is horrid with decknames now, apparently.

[fitz712]

currently im working with this:

4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus

4 Goblin Welder
4 Juggernaut
2 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Aether Spellbomb
2 Eon Hub
2 Lava Dart

the deck runs pretty soild but is black worth running

[Methuselahn]

Is black worth running?  I don't know.  What does your meta look like?  It is hard to tell since all you posted was a decklist.  And really, all you did was took out 2 fatties, tweaked the manabase, and added 2 black tutors.  Then posted it.   

[yespuhyren]

I was at a tournament with a form of workshop aggro.   Here is a link to my list/report.

http://www.mtgontario.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=46974#46974

[Dralock]

Currently, I feel that Michael Penik's list that took 11th at SCG Chicago is the strongest list for workshop aggro right now. Its MD answers for oath, slaver and side againsed all forms of combo (it now sports 4x sphere of resistence and pyrostatic pillars) give it a huge foot up on most of the meta. I believe his inability to push in to the top8 at SCG was due to small player errors at the top level againsed combo, which is a matchup he did very little testing againsed.

For reference, here is the deck:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
3 Chalice Of The Void
3 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Juggernaut
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Trinisphere

Artifact Creatures
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion

Creatures
4 Goblin Welder

Enchantments
3 Seal Of Cleansing

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Swords To Plowshares
3 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor

Legendary Artifact Creatures
1 Karn, Silver Golem

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Lands
4 City Of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Glimmervoid
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
1 Jester's Cap
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
2 Rack And Ruin
1 Ray Of Revelation

[TimeWizzle]

Has anyone considered Shrapnel blast as a finisher/spot removal?  Kills dead most creatures you care about, and like Steve mentioned, would get the final points of damage in if Juggs & crew can't do it for you.  Also, if I'm not mistaken about the targeting/resolution timing, i think you can shrapnel blast in response to a Rack and Ruin or a Weld to counter it (and dome for 5).  
Would Sword of fire and ice or light and shadow be any good in WS aggro?  I almost think SofL&S would be better to recur Trikes and welders and whatnot.  Maybe as a one-of anyway.

[yespuhyren]

For equipment, I'd probably be more interested in Loxodon Warhammer, because although its not card advantage, its MASSIVE life gain if your opponent doesn't counter it, if you get in 1 swing against combo, it become very tough for them to win, as dealing 28 or so damage isn't easy.  It's also good against decks like FCG, and weenie decks like fish, as trampling over their weenies helps to win faster

[Rico Suave]

I don't know why anybody would play Workshops without 4 Chalice maindeck.

[madmanmike25]

Why? becaus chalice can ruin your day as well depending on your deck.  1 hurts welders, STP's, Recall.  2 is the best i believe because besides spheres not as much costs 2 and i would gladly not be able to play a sphere and know my opponent cant cast a drain.  It depends on who plays/gets what out first.  Therefore unless your deck is tailored to it, 3 works fine.  It got me 11th place.

[Johnni86]

the chalice doesn't affect you because you can kill it most of the time with a welder or a Karn and you should only play it after you played the relivant stuff

[Rico Suave]

A first turn Chalice of the Void for 0 is not just a strong play, it is how you beat many, many decks.  The simple act of denying them Moxen will buy so much time for your gameplan to enter a stride, and the mana denial helps the rest of the deck through Crucible, Wastelands, Titan, etc.  It also fights 2 of your worst enemies: Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will.  I think I might run 5 or 6 if I could.

[prosbloom225]

I almost played shop aggro at chicago last weekend, I just didn't see its effectiveness versus combo or stax.  It absolutely rapes fish, but against everything else, its a losing battle.  I don't see the reasons to be running the deck over stax with fish waning right now.

[Smmenen]

I don't know why anybody would play Workshops without 4 Chalice maindeck.

If I recall, Roland Chang had no Chalices maindeck....

[Vegeta2711]

I don't know why anybody would play Workshops without 4 Chalice maindeck.

If I recall, Roland Chang had no Chalices maindeck....

If I recall, Morrison and Vroman had 4 Chalice maindeck...   

Or did your comment have more value than just being a random prod?

[Rico Suave]

Smmenen: I played against both Morrison and Roland over the course of the day.  Roland won the die roll against me, and I have no doubt he would have lost game 1 if he didn't win the roll.  Morrison on the other hand lost the die roll, yet still beat me simply because he played multiple Chalices to stop my key spells.  If anything this further convinced me that Chalice is absolutely crucial.

On a sidenote prosbloom: I have no troubles against Stax.  I lost to Morrison's Stax in Chicago, but I swept him 2-0 with Workshop Aggro in Rochester, and when talking to Clown of Tresserhorn (also playing Stax) he commented that Workshop Aggro was his worst match. 

[NastyNate]

Chalice of the void is the most versitile disruption card in workshop aggro. There are times when it is difficult to maximize it's potential, but it will cause your opponent more problems than it will cause you 90% of the time. Workshop aggro has a much broader mana curve than non-workshop based decks, which enables you to not only drop the chalice with a variable number of counters, but you as the workshop player, will have far fewer of your spells countered by the card. Chalice does not shut decks down completely most of the time, but it does buy time, and seriously stifle the number of options your opponent has during the game. Chalice looses some of its effectiveness when your opponent runs a mana curve equally as diverse as your own, but it will always be useful when going first, and you drop it with zero counters. I agree that running less than a full compliment of chalices is an error.

[prosbloom225]

On a sidenote prosbloom: I have no troubles against Stax.  I lost to Morrison's Stax in Chicago, but I swept him 2-0 with Workshop Aggro in Rochester, and when talking to Clown of Tresserhorn (also playing Stax) he commented that Workshop Aggro was his worst match. 

I know the deck has the possibility of plowing over stax, but I could never get the deck to do so.  In testing stax was able to take the juggie or su-chi damage and get their lock.

[Arvid]

What is the optimatal creature base for monobrown workshop aggro, i.e. no Tinker or other tutor effects. I think the amount is ~16 (not counting Metalworker and, possibly, Mishra's Factory) since the rest of the deck is mana and some lock parts, equipments, and other stuff. As for now I was thinking something in the direction of:

4 Juggernaut
3 Sundering Titan
3 Triskelion
2 Razormane Masticore
2 Platinum Angel
2 Duplicant

I don't know if the mana curve is too high, or if I would want to play Karn, Silver Golem and/or Arcound Ravager to make use of additional Crucible of Worlds or dead Tangle Wires.

[b-tings]

You're also playing WAY too many top-heavy creatures for my tastes. Most builds that I've seen (that aren't playing Guilded Lotus) lose 2 of the Titans, and one each of Triskleion, Platinum Angel, and Duplicant. As it stands, it looks like you're relying way too much on Metalworker.

You want to play Karn, Silver Golem. If nothing else, he's your Mox Monkey effect. But if you end up cutting the 5 creatures, as above, you're going to make room for a lot more lock components that make Karn a lot better.

[Dante]

You're also playing WAY too many top-heavy creatures for my tastes. Most builds that I've seen (that aren't playing Guilded Lotus) lose 2 of the Titans, and one each of Triskleion, Platinum Angel, and Duplicant. As it stands, it looks like you're relying way too much on Metalworker.

You want to play Karn, Silver Golem. If nothing else, he's your Mox Monkey effect. But if you end up cutting the 5 creatures, as above, you're going to make room for a lot more lock components that make Karn a lot better.

True, but don't forget a mono-brown version will play 4 Ancient Tombs and 2-4 City of Traitors in addition to the MWS's and artifact acceleration.  So it's not just the extra boost from Metalworker, but 6-8 extra lands that produce more than 1 mana.

That said, we'd really need to see your build to comment on the creature base, mana base etc.  Also it depends if you're going to run MUD (a mono-brown prison deck) vs an Aggro deck with a couple artifact lock pieces for disruption while your beaters beat.  Two different strategies that should have different creature bases.