[Premium Article] Meandeck Gifts

[Smmenen]

Having non blue spells in the deck is bad.  The last thing you want to do is fetch out underground sea.  Literally. 

[arcana]

that deck is hot. on sunday a similar deck to that one completely owned every one. here is the links http://www.mtgparadise.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20571 have a look.

[darkchild]

I ran this list to a first place finish in my local tournament in Australia:

1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Island
2 Snow-Covered Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
3 Merchant Scroll
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Burning Wish
1 Recoup
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Misdirection
1 Time Walk
1 Rebuild

Its pretty much Steve's list except + 1 vamp and 1 underground sea: - 1 fetch and 1 merchant scroll. I think 5-6 fetches are about the same and i feel better with that extra underground as i sometimes have problem getting two seas (if 1 gets wasted) to dt and will in the same turn.

I personally feel that the number of blue cards is high enough (29, 30 for steve's list) that I would not suffer by cutting 1 merchant scroll to fit in vamp tutor. That being said, I did not draw the vamp tutor in all my 17 games so I can't conclude that it was the correct choice. Here are the pros and cons i guess:

Merchant Scroll: No card disadvantage, its blue, gets you ancestral (or whatever blue instant you need NOW) Shut down by chalice for two

Vamp tutor: card disadvantage, non blue, gets you what you want next turn (unless you have a brainstorm) Shut down by chalice for one.

From my expierence with the deck, chalice for two is a bigger headache than chalice for one.

Cards shut down by chalice for one: 4 brainstorm, 1 ancestral, 1 mystical, 1 vamp tutor, 1 sol ring and 1 mana vault =9

Cards shut down by chalice for two: 4 mana drains, 4 merchant scroll, 1 time walk, 1 buring wish, 1 recoup, 1 echoing truth, 1 demonic tutor =13 cards

Its not just that more cards are being shut down, but more KEY cards, (walk, recoup, burning wish). Therefore, I personally feel that by having another 1 mana tutor over a merchant scroll allows you to gifts for something like : (vamp, mystical, rebuild and xx card) which allows you to either will next turn and cast your rebuild from graveyard or rebuild away the chalice for two. Maybe its just because workshop is still present in my environment and therefore chalice for two is a threat to me. If Steve does not mind, I would like to get his opinion on this, thanks!

[Gabethebabe]

With the vamp I think 3 Seas is the right call.

Chances are that you go in the early game for a black spell. Red spells you really don´t want to see in the early game as they´re more or less dead weight until you start gifting for the combo parts.

How were the Pithing Needles? 3 of them is a little bit against the idea of Gifts. My current SB consists of 13 singletons & two Pyroclasm (goblins and other random aggro in my 0-proxy meta)

[Nehptis]

Has anyone tested Relearn over Recoup?  Or just simply adding Relearn to the Deck as a 1 of?

Pros:
Grabs an Instant or Sorcery
Pitch bait for FOW and MisD
The Relearned instant/sorcery returns to your graveyard. (Still a target for Y Will and Recoup).

Cons:
1UU vs. 1R
No flashback
The Relearned instant/sorcery returns to your graveyard (no longer Wishable)

Relearn
Card type: Sorcery

Casting cost: 1
Oracle text: Return target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard to your hand.

[darkchild]

This was the sb i ran for the tournament:

3 Pithing Needle ( Must play)
1 Red Elemental Blast (against control)
1 Pyroblast (against control)
2 Pyroclasm ( fish, goblin )
2 Rack and Ruin (workshop)
1 Meltdown (pretty useless the whole day as actually a replacement for primitive justice as a way to get rid of two chalice at once)
1 Boseiju, The Big Tree ( Super against CS or Tog, or pretty much any control without wastelands)
1 Chainers Edict (I prefer this over eye of nowhere)
1 Tendrils of Agony ( need I explain why )
1 Mind Twist (with BIg Tree = gg)
1 Engineered Explosives ( against oath, fish and random stuff)

The three needles is a must because to me needles is actually two cards build into one: blood moon and dumping matrix.
Uba stax is present in here so they can either shut down bazaar, welders or tormod crypt. Against fish, they can shut down jitte, mishra factory or aether vial. So most likely you are getting 1 for mutiples and that itself is virtual card advantge that will win you the game. But I think the biggest plus is the ability to stop tormod crypt which is this deck's greatest fear.

If I were to change I will probably take out the engineered explosive, meltdown and mind twist for 2 old man and 1 rebuild. I metagamed for more control and almost no fish last tournament which was correct and for tournaments where fish is present, i think steve's sb of 2 old man is better. I have yet to tested the 2nd rebuild against workshop decks but will do so tomororrow and update this thread.

[Machinus]

Has anyone tested Relearn over Recoup?

Relearn costs 3 mana, two of which is colored. Also it does not flash back, making it much less useful.

[Dozer]

Has anyone tested Relearn over Recoup?  Or just simply adding Relearn to the Deck as a 1 of?

Relearn increases the mana needed to go off by one (even though eliminating Red, which may or may not be worth it). Also, Relearn requires you to make a Gifts split where it is the weakest card, unlike Recoup sometimes is the strongest card in a split. The reason is that if you do not get the Relearn, among the cards you get there must be a way to win the game. And piles like Relearn, Tinker, Will, x don't leave the backdoor open of Flashbacking Time Walk or similar. The Flashback on Recoup can be game winning, because it enables you to split your mana for support cards over two turns. With Relearn, the amount of mana you have to spend on the Will turn rises not only by the one mana that Relearn costs more than Recoup, but you will have to replay the Relearn in the very same turn to get the relevant card instead of flashing it back next turn, when the mana will be available again.

Team CAB disputed Regrowth in Gifted, but precisely for that reason we never used it. Recoup, with its double use, makes you less vulnerable to disruption. Keep in mind that with just Tinker and Recoup in hand, your opponent needs three counterspells to prevent the Tinker from happening, whereas with Relearn, he only needs two. That's an important difference, relevant enough to justify Recoup over any Regrowth-type spell.

Dozer

[Ferrismonk]

Here's my 2 cents...

1. The vampiric tutor is necessary if you stray a bit away from Mendendian's list.  If you add any non-blue, non-instant cards, the vamp becomes much more useful.  I've been trying out Gorilla Shaman main for example, and vamp is the only way to get him.  If you stick to the Meandeck list, then merchant scroll is probably better.

2. I really hate it when my opponent lays down first turn Goblin Welder.  It means I either have to Cast Y. Will and Tinker in the same turn, have to wish for an answer, or go the Tendrils route.  Is anyone else having this problem?  Is it worth putting a maindeck answer?  Perhaps Lava Dart or Engineered Plague?  I'd like other people's experience with this.  (Especially since welder is quite likely to be at STG Chicago).

3. Misdirection is not working as well as I would have hoped.  It's fantastic in the control vs. control matcup, but that's only approx 1/3 the field (1/3 Workshop, 1/3 Fish).  The vein in my head also starts to pulse when I can't counter something crucial first turn when I have Mana Drain and Misdirection in hand.  Would Mana Leak be better maindeck?  Or how about Disrupting Shoal? The Misdirections could be put in the side if you really wanted them against the control mirror.

4. Gorilla Shaman is not as nuts against this deck as I first thought.  You can play a mox, let it resolve, then play tinker before you pass priority to your opponent.  They never get a window to eat the mox first.  Just a neat trick that some people may not notice.   

Any thoughts?

[cosineme]

i love the fact that you can go mono blue, but i have often found the 2x volcs lacking. You rarely fetch/play any out until end game, but typically, if you need to fetch a volc to burning wish, you aren't going to have the 2nd one available to cast whatever necessary sorcery required, IE pyroclasm, meltdown, etc. Often, this leads to a single turn delay, giving the opponent plenty of time to prepare, whether it is with a prepared meddling mage, held wasteland, etc.

[zero]

If welders are giving you a problem, you have echoing truth maindeck...

[Thug]

@ Smennen

Not to take away from your deck at all... But umm... Koen Van dur Hulst wins with everything there... He won with dracoplosion so I am not incredibly impressed that a player of his high skill won a tournement with a solid deck in an incredibly unprepared metagame that from top 8 lists (which almost never change more then 1 card a year such as T1t) you can believe the area doesnt know how to metagame at all.

As mentioned DracoPlosion was Rudy (rvs), and he played that in Castricum which is seen as a fun tournament by the more serious players around here in dutchieland.

I'm not sure which top8 you're talking about but it nonsense anyway. Making claims about the tournament by seeing 8 decklists in crap in the first place. There were a lot of people with cards in their deck legal less than a month.

And I think the reason people win in a combination of luck, metagaming, skill and the deck itself. I didn't really metagame, had some quite good hands, I think I'm at least a decent player, but It wouldn't be stupid that the deck itself had nothing to do with my success.

Koen

[Whatever Works]

@ Thug

Sorry, I confused you with RVS. Having played vs. you, and having talked to you before I know your a skilled player and am not questioning that. What I am questioning is the general lack of real inovation in areas such as Italy where the same T1t list never changes.

[Smmenen]

Koen, I already called him on it:

congrats on designing what IMO is the best deck to surface in a long time.  restrctions will follow

I doubt it. The deck has only done well at origins in a field that you could calll average at best. With the best players not playing gifts beating the deck in several circumstances. Good players took advantage of an uprepared field. Yesterday at the Mykatog tourney a large # of players played gifts, and honestly almost all of them crapped out. Perhaps a good deal of this is due to playskill, but more likely because players were expectiing gifts, and were exstremely prepared for the matchup.

Every Fish deck in the field appeared to be running rootwater thief, and about half the field was running Extract in there board. Gifts can play around some of this, but when your forced to play around soooo many cards the deck is forced to either play passive (which is never good), or force situations that are less then favorable.

You must not pay attention and evidently you don't even read the posts in this thread.  Koen Van Dur Hulst won a 40 man tournament with meandeck gifts getting 1st and 2nd place in Europe. 

[Nehptis]

The Truth, I believe after seeing the deck work on Saturday and Sunday,  should definitely be a sorcery speed bounce spell to be wished for.

I did a Gatherer search and could not come up with any usable Sorcery Speed bounce spells (in U).  What did you have in mind?

[absolute]

The Truth, I believe after seeing the deck work on Saturday and Sunday,  should definitely be a sorcery speed bounce spell to be wished for.

I did a Gatherer search and could not come up with any usable Sorcery Speed bounce spells (in U).  What did you have in mind?

The card in question was already noted as Eye of Nowhere, the Champions of Kamigawa's replacement for boomerang at sorcery speed (with the benefit of being an arcane spell....). Eye was used in one of our weekly tournaments recently, and seems to be a fairly decent answer to an opposing collosus or any other permanent that is producing a headache.

[Nehptis]

Eye of Nowhere did turn up in my search but I did not see it as an acceptable solution due to the UU CC.  I have not done extensive testing with the deck.  But, my early testing shows that with so many Tutors in the deck, finding the MD Blue bounce spell is not an issue.

[absolute]

Eye of Nowhere did turn up in my search but I did not see it as an acceptable solution due to the UU CC.  I have not done extensive testing with the deck.  But, my early testing shows that with so many Tutors in the deck, finding the MD Blue bounce spell is not an issue.

Funny, one of the main goals of the deck is to get up UU to cast drain anyway, so it should be no hastle to tutor/wish for any bounce spell and cast it when it's needed. In a pinch the sorcery bouncer is not a must have, but it definately doesn't hurt if there is no other/better metagame call at that particular time.

[Dralock]

Here's my 2 cents...

1. The vampiric tutor is necessary if you stray a bit away from Mendendian's list.  If you add any non-blue, non-instant cards, the vamp becomes much more useful.  I've been trying out Gorilla Shaman main for example, and vamp is the only way to get him.  If you stick to the Meandeck list, then merchant scroll is probably better.

Adding in Gorilla Shaman gets you control of the game, but slows down the rest of the deck considerably. Vamp tutor is nice, but having more blue solutions is just the best way to go. It goes back to Steve's post a couple days ago saying the same thing.

2. I really hate it when my opponent lays down first turn Goblin Welder.  It means I either have to Cast Y. Will and Tinker in the same turn, have to wish for an answer, or go the Tendrils route.  Is anyone else having this problem?  Is it worth putting a maindeck answer?  Perhaps Lava Dart or Engineered Plague?  I'd like other people's experience with this.  (Especially since welder is quite likely to be at STG Chicago).

The solution for welder is the same as the mirror match. Truth -> Tinker -> DSC -> Time Walk. You shouldn't have any trouble setting this one up, considering all of the business spells are blue. I find that sometimes having a second mystical tutor would just break it open, but alas, they are restricted.

[Ferrismonk]

The solution for welder is the same as the mirror match. Truth -> Tinker -> DSC -> Time Walk. You shouldn't have any trouble setting this one up, considering all of the business spells are blue. I find that sometimes having a second mystical tutor would just break it open, but alas, they are restricted.

The problem, however, is that casting those 3-4 spells against a slaver deck is much harder than having a single maindeck answer.  Also, it seems that many slaver decks are now packing lightning greaves, which unfortunately interferes with the bounce plan (albeit Lava Dart too).  Perhaps the problem is not with the Welder itself but relying on DSC too much.  I think the tendrils route is probably a better option in those instances. 

[Glix]

Goblin Welder is a threat, but not as much as you make it out to be.  Pre-board, you have access to bounce, wish-pyrocasm/whatever, tendril's win (my prefered response), and Yawgmoth's Will.  Post-board you have needles, and so you just need to wait a little to get one and protect it.

As for the sideboard bonce, I had eye in my board since you posted the deck, but it dissatisfied me and I have dumped it.  It always just seems too weak.  One thought I had was, when portal becomes legal, Symbol of Unsummoning.  Another portal related thought was Deja Vu (to keep in mind as a blue-alternative to recoup while only requiring one colored mana).  Although I don't think Deja Vu is worth it at all, I would much rather have symbol over eye.

Would anything else from portal be worthwhile?  Is there room for Personal Tutor?

[Smmenen]

Darkchild:
I agree that I foresee Chalice 2 being a big threat in the future.  I think Echoing Truth will have to change to something else.  Suggestions?  The problem is that I think Fish will try to attack this deck as will Workshops.  The deck needs flexibility against both archetypes.  Radical suggestions will be entertained.

[Cab]

I'm sure I'm not the first to suggest it, but you could use Rushing River instead of Echoing Truth if need be. I can't really think of anything else except for Chain of Vapor, but Chalice for 1 is very popular if someone doesn't know what you're playing as it shuts down so many options, like the Ancestral. So, I think Rushing River would be a good switch out for the Echoing Truth if Chalice for 2 starts to become a problem.

I can't think of any other blue bouncers that don't cost 1 or 2.

[PipOC]

Darkchild:
I agree that I foresee Chalice 2 being a big threat in the future.  I think Echoing Truth will have to change to something else.  Suggestions?  The problem is that I think Fish will try to attack this deck as will Workshops.  The deck needs flexibility against both archetypes.  Radical suggestions will be entertained.

Is rushing river really that bad?  It's only one more mana and can potentially remove two seperate hinderances.

[Ferrismonk]

 

I agree that I foresee Chalice 2 being a big threat in the future. I think Echoing Truth will have to change to something else. Suggestions? The problem is that I think Fish will try to attack this deck as will Workshops. The deck needs flexibility against both archetypes. Radical suggestions will be entertained.

The Chalice for 2 problem is one of the main reasons that I put Gorilla Shaman in the Echoing Truth spot (and Vampiric Tutor for one Merchant Scroll).  Not only do you reduce the 2-mana spot by two cards, you have answers at Converted mana cost (CMC) 1 and CMC 3.  Another side benefit of Shaman over Rushing River is that you can get out of a Chalice 2 and Chalice 3 situation (Which is GG if you only run Rebuild and Rushing River).

Another card I've been toying with as a solution to the welder problem is Fire and Ice.  You can tutor it up with Merchant scroll and burn opposing goblin(s).  You also can use it to tap down an opposing permanant for a turn (like enemy DSC or Trinisphere) and gain some card advantage along the way.  Any thoughts?

[darkchild]

I agree that I foresee Chalice 2 being a big threat in the future. I think Echoing Truth will have to change to something else. Suggestions? The problem is that I think Fish will try to attack this deck as will Workshops. The deck needs flexibility against both archetypes. Radical suggestions will be entertained.


The Chalice for 2 problem is one of the main reasons that I put Gorilla Shaman in the Echoing Truth spot (and Vampiric Tutor for one Merchant Scroll).  Not only do you reduce the 2-mana spot by two cards, you have answers at Converted mana cost (CMC) 1 and CMC 3.  Another side benefit of Shaman over Rushing River is that you can get out of a Chalice 2 and Chalice 3 situation (Which is GG if you only run Rebuild and Rushing River).

Shaman definately one of the ways to go, but only deals with chalices and other artifacts and not other problematic permanents that echoing truth can.

The other cards that can be considered are: rushing river, chain of vapour, a 2nd rebuild and meltdown.

Rushing River: 3 cc makes chalice for 3 a nightmare, bounce two permanents if kicked, cannot be misdirected if kicked, its blue and not stop by chalice for two.

Chain of vapour: only bounce 1 permanent, can be used back against you, can be misdirected, its blue, deals with only 1 chalice

2nd rebuild: only deal with artifact, stops by chalice for three, can be cycled, cannot be misdirected, its blue and helps with the upping the strom count

Meltdown: Should kill all chalice on the table, pretty much chalice proof, kills all small artifacts on the table, its not blue, socery speed, pretty much dead against other non chalice decks.


Evaluationing all the options, I think there are two choices:

Suck it up with echoing truth and make sure you counter every chalice or two.

Other use either the second rebuild or rushing river and make sure chalice for three does not resolve (its much harder in my opinion to resolve chalice for three), and maybe add a meldown in the sb to deal with chalice for three.

[diamond66]

I realize that this suggestion may be flamed by many, but I have been testing it in various situations, and it seems to be, while possible not optimal, at least an area I am willing to test a bit more.  In both the stax and the Fish matchups, or any match up where Chalices and other artifacts are the main problem, I really feel meltdown may be to slow.  What about pulverize?  While losing 2 volcanic Islands will no doubt be a major issue, doesn't the ability to slip by almost every chalice or sphere make it at least test worthy?  Under trinisphere, which is where it would be the worst, it costs 3.  Also, it is a valid wish target, even if that does mean you now have to win with Colossus (unless you have previously boarded in tendrils, of course).  It also wrecks aether vial, jitte, and other non-desireable artifacts, leaving your opponent in a bind, while fueling a massive will on your part.  Thoughts?

[cosineme]

that's a terrible idea. at most you are running 3x volcanics. If you are going to be fetching them out that early against fish, that means either you're exposing your red mana to wastes, or you're not doing anything with your fetches. even if you were to hold your fetches so you can have double volc, that means that the fish player is free to do anything he wants, as...you're mana production hasn't even come online. if you are talking about late game, well a late game chalice really doesn't do anything.

[Chamelet]

Well, I ran the deck in a local tournament.
It's the same list as Steve posted (4 fetches, 6 duals).
SB:
2 Pithing Needle (excelent. And also stops Welder)
1 REB (I may be wrong but I don't think the deck has room for these. You simply don't have what to take out, unless you're up against Mono-blue or something like it.)
1 Pyroblast
1 hydroblast
1 Rebuild (didn't use it. Don't know if it's needed here...)
1 Rushing River (excelent agaisnt opposing Colossus, against Null Rod, etc...)
1 Seasinger (great! Also steals Colossus. Since Fish isn't running Fire/Ice no more...)
1 Rack and Ruin (didn't use any artifact removal. Rebuild and Truth did their jobs well)
1 Primitive Justice
2 Pyroclasm (against Fish. I wasn't paired with any... Probably taking one out)
1 Boseiju (didn't come up in a single game. Yet to be tested, but has potential. Specially wieh Needle for Wasteland)
1 Engineered Explosives (against random aggro and Chalice. The decks seems to win before this is needed though. And Bouncers are easier to find and Null Rod proof...)
1 Tendrils (yeah. Never even used it too...probably not using it lost me a game, but that's how it goes.)

So, I ended 2nd in a small tourney. Played against control mainly. Probably putting 3rd Needle, 1 Eye of Nowhere and 2 Duresses in the REB's rooms. Then take a Volcanic out and add a Fetch. Duresses are better against control in this deck than REB's. The only thing I miss in the side is a sorcery(Wishable) or a blue instant (scrollable) to stop a aggro rush
And please end the Misdirection x Duress stuff. I Misdirected 3 Ancestral Recalls and those won me games. It's simply amazing.
The other thing I noticed is that LoA would be useful in some matches. Should it replace Boseiju in the side against control?
Another problem: what to side out? The deck is really tight. I always ended up sideing a Mana Drain and/or Misdirection out, even against control. What do you think?

[neenjafus]

what to side out is my biggest challenge with the deck also. I like matches where I can side out misd...cause then I can side stuff in!

I asked on these forums and basically got told to read a premium article in scg

If anyone has some useful insight as to what to side in, please share it!

I really enjoy playing this deck and I do an ok job of boarding, but more knowledge would be good.

Thanks