It's time to have a Serious Discussion about Proxies Again

[alban]

I see that the discussion has (for a part) moved from "do we allow proxies, and in what numbers?" to "I hate proxies that are just scribbled land cards"
Isn't it easy to go to a good proxy shop and let them make good proxy's? So that they look like something as the Collector's Edition? It might cost a bit, but I think it would make sure there is no time loss

[MarkPharaoh]

Extremely relevant topic. If the game is going to move to the level it belongs (w/Poker & Chess) then proxies shouldn't even be an issue.  The question is to how to prevent proxies from ruining real life Magic.

I think this summarizes my feelings in two sentences. 

But no one has answered my question:
If SCG announced that they were going unlimited proxies for the rest of thier P9 events (only four more left), do you think it would negatively affect the price of power at all ?

No, because there are players like me out there who hate proxies with a passion and would much father own the real deal. 

[arcana]

i think that 5 proxies is enough. i live in Australia, Melbourne and t1 here it ether 5 proxies or no proxies. The whole reason for the idea of proxies was to give people a taste of the power nine, so if you wanted to run more than you would have to buy them. 5 is enough and you some people want more than 10 thats a bad idea.

[Whatever Works]

Last year in Gencon I invested a mere $20 for a fake set of power 9 + Library. I already had my own set, but got the fake set for playtesting purposes (oddly from a middle aged man dressed in full knight's armor). The proxies are extremely well done and you can barely tell the difference between them and the real power accept for an incredibly small difference in thickness that is undetectable in sleeves.

If sets were being sold for about $30ish dollars, or players had the option of paying $40 entrance for a tourney (an additional $15 to get a free proxy set at a discount upon entering the tourney). This could fix alot of the WTF what mox is that? etc. and also essentially increase the # of power availible for tournements, and upon any type of close inspection they can be recognized as fake.

[Seldon]

Unlimited proxy wont change the price of cards.. Shop change it and set it the way they like. (sry if this site is associated with a card shop but thats one of the reason why price have gone that high). Want proof?

Over the coming weeks I'm going to feature cards being added to the system. Today's feature? Nothing less than the Power Nine - 8 pieces of Alpha, 8 pieces of Beta, and 43 pieces of Unlimited power - for a total of 59 pieces of power added to our system overnight!

Now a solution .. maybe.

unlimited proxy with restriction:

Vintage tournament
5 proxy + 1$ per additional proxy (no limit)

That way it give more prize at the end of the tournament and give everyone a way to play any deck they want. Its working really well here for the QVC (Québec Vintage Championship.)

[sa-x]

if you don't want to buy the cards, play t2 or draft or something....proxies are KILLING sales at our local events here in the northwest.  it's almost to the point where i don't even like playing my own power anymore, because everyone i play against has a full board of proxies from turn 1 and beyond.  it's really getting hard to justify paying money to sit across from fake cards all day long.

[BurningIce]

I personally don't like proxies at all.  Yes, getting power is hard, because it's bloody expensive, and there aren't many of them left.  However, most people who play Type 2/Extended spend a lot of money on cards, buying 1-2 boxes per set.  Which is a piece or two of power per year basically if you equal it like that. 

Although in Type 1, your cards never become useless to you, like they do in type 2.  Get a Black Lotus?  It'll always be good.

But I do understand the argument for them.  I still think though it should be whatever number, but not just restricted to power, drains, etc.  I have a full set of power, drains, 1 workshop, 1 bazaar.  However I only have stuff like 2 Intuitions, 0 Gifts Ungiven, 1 Mindslaver, etc.  I hate that I'm penalized from playing in these events because I have all the good cards, but little of the flack.

[Luskan]

Power prices won't be affected by unlimited proxies.  There will always be a demand for power as long as people are still playing type 1.  A lot of people would rather play with the real thing, instead of scribbled up lands.  Reprinting power, even if for proxy purposes only, by WotC could lower the prices.  I have the collector's edition power, and thus don't feel the need to buy "the real thing" because it feels like a real magic card.  Doesn't mean I wouldn't like to win them though....

Now a solution .. maybe.

unlimited proxy with restriction:

Vintage tournament
5 proxy + 1$ per additional proxy (no limit)

That way it give more prize at the end of the tournament and give everyone a way to play any deck they want. Its working really well here for the QVC (Québec Vintage Championship.)

This is a way to control how many scribbled cards you would have to face in a tournament, allow the tournament organizer make more money (to make up for any potential decline in sales), and will draw more people to the tournaments.  Also, people who already invested in power will reduce their cost of entry fees and increase their prize / entry fee ratio.

[Disburden]

It seems to me the people that usually do not support proxies in tournaments are the people that don't need them. To me, the argument of proxy is common sense. You want the format to grow, right? Well, how does this happen when all the new vintage players that aren't fortunate enough to know people with power are screwed out of the format? It's proved that a lot of Vintage newbies don't play that many tournaments because they're forced to play a crappy deck. They can't play Meandeck Gifts, Slaver, TPS, etc.

I think that 10-15 proxies is fine, as like many of you have said, it allows you to play pretty much anything, and test with anything. That allows you to play with Workshops/Bazaars.

Look at me for example, I own ONE piece of power. That piece of power is a mox sapphire. That's it. I don't like fish, matter of fact I hate Fish decks. I just don't like playing aggro. I'm a combo and control player by heart (currently testing meandeck Gifts a lot, thanks Steve), that'll never get to play combo unless I spend my rent money, sell all my cards that aren't power, or steal from my job. Proxies give me hope of being able to compete so MAYBE I can win a tournament locally and get more power. This seems like the more logical way to try to get power, rather than paying 600$ for a white bordered mox or Ancestral/Time Walk.

My point is, the format needs to stay alive, so why can't we just accept that some people need alittle help to get started?

[Saucemaster]

Here's what I brainstormed up the other day.  It's got a number of positives and a number of negatives.  I'm interested in people's thoughts.

Let's take the SCG circuit as an example.  What if SCG decided on a price cutoff--e.g. $50 or $75 per card--and then printed up a set of proxies of all commonly-played Type 1 cards above that price?  These would mimic Magic cards in thickness, flexibility, etc.  To avoid copyright issues (to the extent that that's possible, which it may not be), the cards would have to be significantly different than the real thing, but they'd have all the relevant text printed on them, easily legible.  For a fee that would be paid in addition to your tournament entrance fee, players could rent any number of these proxies they choose, and return them at the end of the tournament.

Benefits: 1) dealers can continue to profit from the demand for newer cards (Gifts Ungiven, etc), even if they're T2 chase rares; 2) proxies are standardized.  Every proxy Mox Sapphire looks identical, and you avoid that "ugly-ass basic Plains with 'M@> $#pp%*re' scribbled on it illegibly" phenomenon.  3) It still provides incentive for players to own "the real thing".  Not that any more incentive needs to be provided, as we all realize, but there are a few blowhards who still tout proxies as "cheapening the real thing".  4) Since the proxies aren't being SOLD, it avoids some potential legal issues with Hasbro.  Of course, as I mentioned, you could still get nail on copyright, but I don't know enough about the law to know whether this is a real possibility or not.  If so, the whole thing's sunk, and this is irrelevant.

There are a few problems with this, of course.  If you discover a techy new SB card, but that card's a rare from Arabian Nights, too bad.  It might end up on SCG's list eventually, but it won't be there to begin with.  And it doesn't help people get playsets of FoW.  But it DOES put the barrier-to-entry at about the same place as Type 2.

[Lord of the Goats]

really there should be enough proxies to enable people to play a competative deck. they don't necesarily need to build it optimally, and they shouldn't be able to build the more expensive decks without aquiring the cards.

10 proxies actually makes people have to think about where they're going to replace cards with suboptimal versions (or something else). a lot of people have said that they want 12 proxies so that people can run full power and a set of drains/shops/bazzaars.... however the implied comment is that with only 10 proxies power will be proxied first and you'll be stuck with 2 drains. if i had no power and 10 proxies and wanted to run a drain deck i'd proxy: 4 drain, 1 ancestral, lotus, 4 moxen.

what 10 proxies does is let people make the mistake of not proxying the correct cards. thus the players with in the proxy limit will have an advantage in that they can't make that mistake. if they're decent players they'll proxy the right cards and pick a reasonable deck to do so with.

12 or more gives too much. and running less than 8 would make a proxy control deck unplayable. 10 seems like a good balance of free cards for the sake of the format, while still not making real cards irrelavent.

for the record, i am fully powered and don't proxy... but i began playing competativly before proxies started so bought  my power so my deck would be that much better. i had to decide that drains were more important than buying the 4th mox. i think new players should need to find that out as well... of course since they can do it w/ proxies it doesn't cost them a couple hundred buckswhen they fuck it up.

and unlimited proxies is what apprentice is for

[Ben Kossman]

Paying $1 per proxy in a tournament seems fair to me. If it's added to the prize money.

[M.Solymossy]

I don't think it would negatively effect power prices... but uping to unlimited MAY effect the prices on drains, shops, and bazaars, and all the utility cards other than power.


on a side note:  If they go to unlimited proxies... I'm gunna play a 500 card ALL proxy deck in boycott. and no... it WONT be playing battle of wits.

[Smmenen]

my opinion: 10 proxies is perfectly fine. this is a format where an investment must be made if you want to perform at a high level. i dont want to look at a bunch basic lands with scribble on it. proxies are a neccessary evil for the health of the format, but lets not get carried away.

I think you guys are missing out.

The common assumption has been that this format will grow.

There is a REAL possibility that this format will simply implode on Jan 1, 2006.

I'm not exaggerating either.

If SCG doesn't do a circuit anymore all that will be left in North America is Gencon (which is no proxy) and Waterbury.

For the vast majority of us, that basically means Gencon will be the only T1 event too look forward to all year.

I might as well disband meandeck in that eventuality.  I don't think you guys are appreciating the gravity of the situation. 

[CrazyCarl]

Unlimited proxy wont change the price of cards.. Shop change it and set it the way they like. (sry if this site is associated with a card shop but thats one of the reason why price have gone that high). Want proof?

Over the coming weeks I'm going to feature cards being added to the system. Today's feature? Nothing less than the Power Nine - 8 pieces of Alpha, 8 pieces of Beta, and 43 pieces of Unlimited power - for a total of 59 pieces of power added to our system overnight!

Now a solution .. maybe.

unlimited proxy with restriction:

Vintage tournament
5 proxy + 1$ per additional proxy (no limit)

That way it give more prize at the end of the tournament and give everyone a way to play any deck they want. Its working really well here for the QVC (Québec Vintage Championship.)

YES.  THANK YOU SOMEONE FINALLY HIT ON IT!!!

Paying for additional proxies is really the way to go IMO.  It solve the whole "they get to play with the shit I payed for for free" and it sort of gives them a bit of legitimacy because the proxy users ARE paying for the privilege (No, it is not your right to be able to play with the Power 9).  It also provides more incentive to pick up the real deal: The more you have, the less you're paying for your proxies.

Hell, I think I could live with 10 (Though preferably sevenish) proxies and paying for each one beyond that.

Also, anothing thing with proxies: They need to be easily legible or identifyable in some other way.  I propose TO's keeping different colored Sharpies on hand with which to color the border of proxies.  Basic BB Mountain = easy to mistake for a mountain instead of the Mox Ruby it "is".  Basic mountain (Actually the paint marker things would be better) with a different colored border in addition to the name, text, etc will not be a problem for the person sitting across the table to identify, even in someone's graveyard.

I really wish someone would try this system at a large event.

Also, printing out proxies is very much illegal.  Buying and selling them is just as illegal.  Why do people keep forgetting this?

[Komatteru]

I think you guys are missing out.

The common assumption has been that this format will grow.

There is a REAL possibility that this format will simply implode on Jan 1, 2006.

I'm not exaggerating either.

If SCG doesn't do a circuit anymore all that will be left in North America is Gencon (which is no proxy) and Waterbury.

For the vast majority of us, that basically means Gencon will be the only T1 event too look forward to all year.

I might as well disband meandeck in that eventuality.  I don't think you guys are appreciating the gravity of the situation. 

Wait, I don't see where this concern is completely coming from.  Are there any indications that SCG won't do a circuit anymore after this year?  I realize you were a little disappointed after seeing the attendance at Origins (I was a little too), but I'm curious as to what your rationale for the huge concern is.  I can't see the indications of it myself, but I might be missing something huge.

Here is something I did think of though regarding the problem with all the format staples.  If Legacy is going to be supported by Wizards, then more people will be chasing the format staples, since blue duals and Forces are still pretty fucking good in Legacy, and will be that until they ban a lot of stuff.  We've been told that Wizards is going to print some sort of new dual land clone that will be very good in Legacy to help everyone out, but we all know that the best and most serious players are going to need dual lands for their decks.  Naturally, the increased demand will cause the prices of these cards to go up some more.  However, now there's much more of an incentive to pick them up as well.  You can play in big Legacy events, and then use the same cards to build 80% of your Vintage deck.  For some people, this will make the investment more worthwhile.  It will also turn others to Vintage, since I can really see people saying "Well, I have all these cards, and I can proxy the rest..."  Or are you worried that that isn't going to happen, and people will just sit on their duals and forces and play Legacy only, thus hurting the growth of Vintage since staple cards are now more expensive and harder to come by?

Also, in regards to what constitutes good proxies, I think the gold bordered World Championship cards are really the best.  I seriously doubt anyone can tell the difference when they're played in a sleeve (and I haven't seen anyone play without sleeves in forever), since I think they're printed on the same sort of card stock as real cards.  No one can mistake a gold-bordered card for something else, and the art is blank, so there's really no confusion.  If anything, foil cards are "twice as marked" as real cards, and those are perfectly legal.

[LordHomerCat]

Also, in regards to what constitutes good proxies, I think the gold bordered World Championship cards are really the best.  I seriously doubt anyone can tell the difference when they're played in a sleeve (and I haven't seen anyone play without sleeves in forever), since I think they're printed on the same sort of card stock as real cards.  No one can mistake a gold-bordered card for something else, and the art is blank, so there's really no confusion.

I agree, dont those championship decks come with a bunch of blank cards for if you wanted to add stuff to the deck?  Different card backs shouldnt matter since no one can see them, and the gold border wont make a difference either.  It seems like, for a really big event like the SCG ones, if they could get enough of the blank cards together, they could have those on sale for like .50 or a dollar a card and just restrict proxies to those cards Only; or alternately, give out 5 with entry fee (if you need them) and then charge a dollar for each one beyond the first.  This clears up the whole "is that a mountain or a ruby" issue, and also forces players to pay extra if they dont have all the cards they want in the deck.  Again, I'm not sure it would be feasible to get that many of the blanks (i dont know how many came with each deck), but they seem like far and away the best way to proxy cards.

Oh, and Steve, do you still have mox tourneys in Columbus?  Didn't you used to get a pretty good turnout for those?  If SCG stops doing their circuit, all would not necessarily be lost; there are still a lot of tournaments held throughout the country each weekend, and with some work and some publicity, whats to stop a few TO's from organizing a larger event more on the scale of SCG's tourneys?  That level of prize support might not be feasible, depending on attendance, but it doesn't mean that, with some scheduling cooperation, different events couldn't be spotlighted on certain weekends as the place to be (like, other tourneys in the region are moved back or forward, so that on a given weekend, the only tourney within a few hundred miles is in Columbus, to try to draw a higher attendance and therefore provide better prize support.  Then, next month the big one could be in St Louis or Chicago or Cleveland etc., sort of like a new circuit)

[Yare]

I'm an Economics major at Duke and I own most of the sub-$30 staples, a very nice UL Mox Emerald, and a beaten UL Timetwister.  Let me try to give some economic aspects on this and then my perspective on things as a whole...

In reading this thread, there are a lot of issues regarding proxies in type 1 beyond the whole value debate.  Ultimately, the question really is

"What do we want for type 1 as a format?"

and the corollary to that is:

"What are we willing to give up to achieve that goal?"

Ideally, there would be:
enough power for everybody at a "reasonable" price,
everybody could play the decks they want with all real cards,
nobody would have to worry about ugly proxies and/or cheating involving those proxies,
those with power now could retain the value of their investment,
tournaments would be well attended, and
all of those tournaments would have great prizes.

Unfortunately, achieving all of these goals is impossible, due primarily to one thing: the supply of "expensive" cards is perfectly inelastic (meaning, the supply will always be the exact same number, no matter how much it is demanded).  So, to answer dandan's question, assuming that demand for power (I'm going to use the word power to designate all "expensive" cards) continues to increase, the price will just continue to rise.  How quickly the price rises depends upon how sensitive people are to the prices of power (commonly referred to as elasticity).  If demand significantly falls with a slight increase in price, then it is relatively inelastic and prices will not rise as quickly.  But if people will still pay for power even if it begins to get more and more expensive, prices will rise rapidly (which seems to be the case over the last few years).  This model is fairly rigid in that we know that the supply of power is not going to increase on WotC's part.  However, one also has to consider the implication that we (the players) can and have been synthetically creating more power, driving the price down.

I'm not talking about printing really high quality fakes and trying to pass them off as real cards.  I'm talking about proxies.  When I say proxy, I mean a card that is not a genuine magic card (and is declared to be such), but that is allowed by the general populace to be played as a real magic card.  Hence, it has virtually no trade value, because the only value it has is as a fake card, which basically amounts to the effort put into making it.

So, to answer Smmenen's question concerning what would happen to prices if SCG announced that all P9 tournament, the effect on the price is theoretically uncertain, but I feel a more definite answer can be reached, and here is why:

You have effect that this creates on various people.  Assume that in at least some other tournaments, players DO need real power to compete.  Additionally, assume that the prizes from SCG have a negligible effect on the market, in that it is only 9 cards changing hands versus the thousands of copies that are out there:

1. People who play in all tournaments (not just SCG) and already have the power: they will not change their behavior at all.  They will not effect the price.
2. People who play in all tournaments (not just SCG), but don't have power and want it:  They are now slightly less likely to buy power in that they can use it in SCG, but not other tournaments.
3. People who play in only SCG tournaments and already have power: they will either hang on to their power or sell it.  This is a direct decrease in the demand for power, driving the price down.
4. People who play in only SCG tournaments, but don't have power and want it: They have it now, didn't pay a penny, and don't need it either.  Their demand is removed from the market, driving prices down further.

So, with regard to people already playing type 1 (and assuming nobody already playing changes their tournament attendance behavior as a result of the change in policy, the price for power will fall.

However, Smmenen suggests this effect of possibly driving prices up with the increase in the popularity of the format due to the new accessibility created by SCG. 

5. People who start playing and only play in SCG tournaments: they don't need power because they aren't playing anywhere else.  Because they weren't initially demanding power and aren't now, they will not effect the prices.
6. People who start playing and play in all tournaments: they will need power for tournaments other than SCG.  This is a new introduction of demand because people previously did not want power but now do.  This drives prices up.

So, the question is, will the increase in demand created by these new players playing in all tournaments offset the fall in price created by the various effects on those people who already play?  With only one tournament set (admittedly a large one) changing its policy, it's really hard to say.  But what if we extrapolate so that a large number of tournaments allow unlimited proxies.  Then, it seems obvious to say that the price of power will fall, because this increase in demand by new players will be greatly offset by the collective price decreasing effects of those players who already play.

To finally answer the question, theoretically the change in price is uncertain, but it seems that in this model prices will decrease.

This intuitively makes sense.  Consider that if all tournaments suddenly decided that they were unlimited proxy. All power, playwise, would become worthless.  The ONLY source of value that it would have would be the collectibility aspect of it; the ability to say "I actually own a Mox Emerald that I bought/won/etc."  To me, it seems fairly obvious that prices would take a big hit.  Think about it: are prices rising now because people suddenly have had this desire to COLLECT or have prises risen because people want to PLAY?  The effect of the desire to play seems greatly overwhelming.

Allowing more proxies, a synthetic way of reprinting power, will lead to a decrease in the price of power, period.

I think our intuition told us that this was probably true, but I feel, having typed it out, it makes more sense now.

Ok, that out of the way, let's consider our goals for type 1.  Some of these might include:

Better prizes
Higher attendance
Increase in tournament frequency
Increase in the quality of decks
Increase in the quality of opponents
Reducing the negative effect of proxies on "Magic as a collectible game." (whatever that precisely means)
Limiting the various other negative effects of proxies on the game, such as a decrease in the price of real power currently owned, cheating involving proxies, time delays created by the existence of bad proxies, hurting the collectibility of the game, etc.

To me, these seem to be the primary goals.

So, consider a higher proxy limit. This will probably lead to higher attendance will almost certainly will lead to better prizes and higher tournament frequencies (created by the higher demand).  The decks will also be higher quality (generally) in that decks that would have been shortchanged (or not appeared at all due to the inability to compete) are now better.  How to actually implement the use of proxies so as to minimize those problems mentioned above is really another issue that I'm not going to elaborate on.  Finally, consider the quality of opponents.  Initially one would think that the quality would increase, but allowing excessive access to the game might cause the format to become flooded with half-ass decks crammed with four off-color moxen.  I would suppose that the kids (no offense to our younger players) would eventually get discouraged after being flogged enough times, causing the format to restabilize with "good" players, but it's a consideration.

So, it seems that where we are at with regard to proxies (very broadly, somewhere between 5 and 15) is at least somewhere in the realm of where we want to be as a format.  However, there is one more aspect to consider...

The players aren't always the ones making the tournaments; it's the dealers and such.  They are going to drive tournaments such that they can:

1. Maximize tournament profits - maximize entry fees while minimizing prize costs
2. Maximize card sales that result from tournaments - reduce the number of proxies allowable.

Note that it is not that a dealer will run a tournament and screw everyone over "surprise" bad prize support (as is common at tournaments where n < 20) but it is instead a "repeated game" in that dealers want to hold as many tournaments as possible to maximize profit over a span of tournaments.  In considering all this, I would think that dealers would also be at roughly the same place we are regarding the number of proxies.  If they are too low, nobody will play.  If they are too high, nobody will buy.

So, finally, so answer the question: how many proxies?  I think there are two viable answers, both of which should probably be tested:

1. Have the traditional hard limit, but raise it to somewhere between 10-13.  Personally, I like 11 or 12, because it makes you get one or two of the "expensive" cards, while still allowing you a LOT of room to mess around with.

2. Have a cost per proxy used (or, a "proxy tax").  What I mean by this is, something to the effect of the old $10 basic entry fee plus $1 per proxy or something to that effect.  That way, the proxies are NOT free, which means power doesn't go down in price by as much.  At the same time, everybody can play what they want, players have an incentive to get the bigger cards to avoid the "proxy tax" if the tax is set high enough.  Finally, an upper limit could be used, such that nobody can ever proxy more than 15 cards or something.

If it were up to me alone, it would universally be something like:

[$10-20 basic entry fee] + [$1 per proxy, with the first 5 proxies free, no more than 15 proxies total]

I think that's about as fair as it is ever going to get for everybody involved.  This way, everybody keeps their cards' values, everybody can play almost anything they want, those with power can proxy the dumb little things without getting burned, and everybody can play some competitive magic and have some fun.  The dealers even win by getting a pure profit through the proxy tax.

One final note: the official Vintage championship (which to the best of my knowledge does not allow proxies) must keep proxies to a minimum.  No more than five.  More than this destroys the really inner meaning of the game.  Yes, yes, I know what I just wrote (and this is not meant to refute everything I just said), but I feel like if you're going to be the uber-super champion of Vintage, for that title to really mean anything, you have to at least collected most of the cards along the way, one way or another.  After all, you can't enter the World Series of Poker for free.

That's my more than two cents, please free to comment.

[Smmenen]

Yare, I have an undergraduate degree in Economics as well.  This whole conversation is laced with latent economics questions.  One of the more interesting ones that you overlooked is basicaly: what is the utility curve of playing non-proxy Vintage?  At some point, the price of power will make even the most die-hard player sell off thier cards. 

But I think you missed one critical point in my question: I pointed this out to make it as explicit as possible: there are only four SCG events remaining.  You extrapolated my question to N number of tournaments - where I was limiting my hypothetical question to four. 

If SCG announced unlimited proxies, that would only affect four tournaments, period.  I am assuming that there will be no more SCG events.  Now recalibrate your answer with that fact in mind. 

[Komatteru]

I am assuming that there will be no more SCG events.

This is what I'm curious about.  Do you have information that leads you to believe that there will be no more SCG events?  Or are you just speculating based on past attendance.  Chicago and Syracuse both drew lots of people, so I'd guess they did pretty well there.  I can honestly see them cutting out Richmond events, since even the last one lagged far behind in terms of attendence.  I'm down here in Virginia right now, and I don't see or hear a lot of Vintage action going on.

I think that everyone always likes to think that "everything is going to hell in a handbasket."  You see that in the news all the time.  "OMG!! Kids are HOODULUMS today!!" when, in reality, they're probably no worse than they were 20 years ago.  For the past 8 years I've been involved in Magic, I always hear about how it's "dying."  People phase in and out of the game (pun intended).  8 years later, it's still here, and value of my old cards has tripled or fourpled.  I hear the same things said about how everyone is quitting Type 2, and how the old guard of T2 players, like Darwin Kastle and Jon Finkel, is now weak, etc.  It all gets so old and it's really hard to discern what are legitimate signs of death and what are just the things that always happen.

[Revvik]

"What do we want for type 1 as a format?"

and the corollary to that is:

"What are we willing to give up to achieve that goal?"

- We want growth, to keep playing right?  New players, survivability.
- I have bought every single piece of power I own.  AFTER the big price jump.

Time Walk: $300.
Ancestral Recall: $350
Mox Emerald: $350
Mox Jet: $400
Mox Pearl: $325
Mox Ruby: $350
Timetwister: $185

Plus four English Drains, which totalled almost $400 for the playset.  And I believe I would be perfectly fine with opening a pack of Tenth Edition in the near future and finding one of these reprinted inside of it.
I know reprinting is an even more touchy issue than proxies, but this thread just makes me think we're digging ourselves deeper and deeper into a hole here with this. 
First it's five, and all is good.  But then people look at the players next to and across from them and think, "Gee, why can't I play with those cards?  Five proxies just isn't enough!" (Well, the answer to the why was simple enough for me - bust your ass at your job and buy them, but no one wants to hear that.)  Then it was upped to ten, and apparently a month of that showed that it was STILL not enough, and I have no clue as to why.

I've also accepted that this will probably never, ever happen, except as one last act of spite from a dying company  .  While my own personal wishes are that people would just face facts and shell out, they could do so in a different way:

unlimited proxy with restriction:
Vintage tournament
5 proxy + 1$ per additional proxy (no limit)

Alter the numbers to suit.
I was and am still willing to work my ass off for over a year, shelling out $2500 along the way just to drive to Chicago, spend $30 entry fee, and go 0-2 drop (ok ok , that happened once) - obviously, I want Star City to succeed with this circuit and continue it.

[Smmenen]

JD, I intend on talking to Pete about it, but even assuming they are getting solid attendance, why would they continue to hold these?

It is a huge logistical nightmare to put on these tournaments.  They have to carry a fuckton of cards, arrange for a hall, put up power that they could sell on their site, and do coverage.  Imagine you are pete and all the stress involved.  You have a brick and mortor store and an online store and you are sending a key cadre of employees many miles away to do a tournament. 

I think it is probably just too much of a headache.  If they were making ALOT of money on it (which I don't know if they are or not), then it would probably be worth it.  But is it worth it when you can only get about 150 people?  I think of how many weekends alone Pete, Ted, Ben etc have to devote a year to this and I just see it from their perspective as just not worth it.  Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.  I think if the tournaments continue to grow, then that is one thing - but if Richmond can only muster 110 people - I don't see how that is worth it. 

It seems much more likely to me that Pete will do a few next year, but not nine.  I could see him announcing three or four.  And it's not like the price of power is getting cheaper.  Ray gets anxious when he gets less than 180 for a Waterbury and he doesn't even have power for 5-8th place!

[yespuhyren]

Here is my opinion on proxies.

I DO believe in proxy events to help the attendance, and I do think that its a good idea, but I don't think we should be doing all the work for these new players.  

There are three types of players in my opinion,

1) Players who have invested their money, currently own all the staples and expensive cards

2) Players who are OBVIOUSLY TRYING HARD to break into the new environment and have spent some money on expensive cards, and own AT LEAST 1 piece of power, or maybe some shops/drains/bazaars, or other expensive cards

3) Players who will not spend that kind of money, and are just using the proxies as a way to play all the expensive decks that are possible WITHOUT EVER DROPPING ANY BIG $$

Category 1 does not require proxies, so thats not a problem.  Proxies only apply to category 2 and 3.  So what is my point?  I believe that the people in category 2 fully deserve to enjoy the benefit of proxies, as they should be able to proxy up the cards they are missing until they are able to obtain them, EVEN IF IT TAKES THEM YEARS.  The point is time is not the important thing that matters here, its the effort and dedication.  

So all in all, I believe that we should allow up to 10 proxies, and no more, as I believe we should be HELPING the new players without all the $$ cards play, but I don't think we should be doing everything for them


Here is a list of "good" decks that can be played with 10 proxies with the proxies written beside them

TPS : 5 moxes, Lotus, Recall, Twister, Walk - the most expensive cards to buy is 4 seas, and one can even be proxied.

I'm fairly sure that almost all storm combo decks can be built with 10 proxies, as 5 moxes, lotus, recall leave you 3 more slots.

WTF: Sapphire, Emerald, Lotus, Walk, Recall, Tundra (SB), 4x FOW - realistically, this can be built with 5 proxies

OFM 2K5 (U/W fish that put 2 of our canadians in 4th and 5th place at SCG Rochester): Lotus, Sapphire, Pearl, Recall, Walk, 2x Old Man of the Sea, 3x Tundra - leaving the only expensive cards left as 4 FOW, but again, they can spend SOME $$

Other Fish decks are the same as OFM 2K5 or similar

Kobolds, 10th place at SCG Illinois : Full P9 + Candelabra

U/W Standstill : 4x Drain, Sapphire, Pearl, Lotus, Recall, Walk, Library (not all run all these, but what more would you want)

FCG : Lotus, Emerald, Ruby....mountains???  - yes, you can proxy taiga, null rods, crypt, or mountains, but its cheap STUFF

And I'm sure there are more, but just look at this sampling of high placing decks at SCG tournaments and just overall "generic" top decks.  This is more than enough selection for the players who don't want to spend any money in my opinion

[Seldon]

YES.  THANK YOU SOMEONE FINALLY HIT ON IT!!!

YES!!! ANOTHER CANADIAN DOMINATION CARL! 

More seriously now, I think ppl don't get it when it come to Vintage tournament.. You see, Vintage is a format supported by people, not by Wizards or SCG! If they decide to stop making P9 tournament, fine! Just move your arse, organize tournament and you can even modify rule to allow certain organisator to actually play if they want (its not sanctionned for god sake!). And when SCG or Wizards decide to organize an awsome crazy big tournament, you'll appreciate it even more! 

This is the biggest forum on internet when it come to vintage.. why not use it to organize something huge?? Imagine Meandeck or TMD Championship..! Just move and don't wait for SCG or Wizards to make tournament for you. It was like that before SCG P9, it can be like that again. You wont be able to give a complete P9 kit to top8, true. You won't be able to attract 200 persons to the tournament, true again.. But you can have a tournament with a mox for first, 50-60 persons and you will have alot of fun. Ppl want to play Vintage no matter the final prize.. If you want to play Vintage to make money.. shame on you!

But i think it's a lot easier to just rant on internet instead of working to make thing happen.

Have a good day everyone, I'm going to play a game of Magic for fun.  :shock:

[CrazyCarl]

JD, I intend on talking to Pete about it, but even assuming they are getting solid attendance, why would they continue to hold these?

It is a huge logistical nightmare to put on these tournaments.  They have to carry a fuckton of cards, arrange for a hall, put up power that they could sell on their site, and do coverage.  Imagine you are pete and all the stress involved.  You have a brick and mortor store and an online store and you are sending a key cadre of employees many miles away to do a tournament. 

I think it is probably just too much of a headache.  If they were making ALOT of money on it (which I don't know if they are or not), then it would probably be worth it.  But is it worth it when you can only get about 150 people?  I think of how many weekends alone Pete, Ted, Ben etc have to devote a year to this and I just see it from their perspective as just not worth it.  Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.  I think if the tournaments continue to grow, then that is one thing - but if Richmond can only muster 110 people - I don't see how that is worth it. 

It seems much more likely to me that Pete will do a few next year, but not nine.  I could see him announcing three or four.  And it's not like the price of power is getting cheaper.  Ray gets anxious when he gets less than 180 for a Waterbury and he doesn't even have power for 5-8th place!

Off topic here, but I had a chat with Pete at Rochester and, though he didn't go into any details, he said that these events have many hidden (less than obvious) costs as well as benefits, and he said (IIRC) that he was satisfied with how things are going.

[PucktheCat]

Steve, you are probably right that these tourneys are not huge money-makers for SCG.  The question is whether they are seeing enough return on their investments from other angles to make it worthwhile.  These are huge promotional opportunites for them.  If, as you say, the end of the power 9 series would result in the format's collapse (or at least an appreciable contraction) that would also be a pretty good reason for SCG to keep them going - they have more stake in maintaining power prices than just about anyone.

Leo

Edit: Your last post seems to be addressing this point.

[Komatteru]

JD, I intend on talking to Pete about it, but even assuming they are getting solid attendance, why would they continue to hold these?

It is a huge logistical nightmare to put on these tournaments.  They have to carry a fuckton of cards, arrange for a hall, put up power that they could sell on their site, and do coverage.  Imagine you are pete and all the stress involved.  You have a brick and mortor store and an online store and you are sending a key cadre of employees many miles away to do a tournament. 

I think it is probably just too much of a headache.  If they were making ALOT of money on it (which I don't know if they are or not), then it would probably be worth it.  But is it worth it when you can only get about 150 people?  I think of how many weekends alone Pete, Ted, Ben etc have to devote a year to this and I just see it from their perspective as just not worth it.  Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.  I think if the tournaments continue to grow, then that is one thing - but if Richmond can only muster 110 people - I don't see how that is worth it. 

It seems much more likely to me that Pete will do a few next year, but not nine.  I could see him announcing three or four.  And it's not like the price of power is getting cheaper.  Ray gets anxious when he gets less than 180 for a Waterbury and he doesn't even have power for 5-8th place!

Well, I think you're missing one key point in your consideration.  Magic is a game, and it's fun.  There are an infinite number of businesses one can get into and make a lot more money than selling cards or running tournaments.  It's a lot less hassle to work for some company somewhere, where you go in, do what they want you to do, and that's it.  Your stress is limited to the workday (9-5), 5 days a week.  In addition, such a job likely pays more or at least offers more financially in return for the time you put into it.  However, despite this, there are a good number of people who own card shops.  Think of all the stuff store owners have to put up with: they have to order all the supplies, keep hot cards in stock, price things accordingly so they still sell, organize tournaments, put up with whiney players and kids, deal with angry parents of Yu-Gi-Oh players, etc. It's got to be nothing but hassle.  All of this is for a fickle market--a small group of people who play in their spare time.  At any given time, one may get fed up with the hobby and move on to something else.  Selling cards is not like owning a pharmacy: people always need medication, but no one really needs cards.  But people do it anyway, probably because it's something they love to do.  Read Ray's last tournament organizer report.  You can tell that, finally, all the hassle got to be way too much for him, and he decided he needed to cut back a little, lest the stress kill him.

I really think SCG loves putting these tournaments on.  Despite all the hassle I'm sure they have to do through, I think the experience is something that's ultimately rewarding for them.  They are in the business to make money, and I'm sure the tournaments are profitable, but maybe not in a way the reflects all the planning and thought that goes into the event.  A true businessman would probably look at the work required to put one of these things on, and decide that the hassle isn't bringing in enough profit to be worthwhile.  However, I don't think they're looking at them like that.  I think they enjoy getting out and interacting with new players and putting on something that everyone seems to enjoy.  I can say that the last SCG I went to was easily the most fun I've ever had playing Magic (or doing anything really).  I'd go to all of them if it weren't a logistical nightmare to get to some of them (I seem to be in the wrong places at the wrong times of the year), and I do feel kinda bad about missing Syracuse.

Now, I don't know any of the SCG staff personally, so this is all just speculation based on what I've read on the website and comments posted from Pete and crew on forums.

[M.Solymossy]

the main problem is that Milwaukee/Chicago/Minniapolis have great Vintage communities, the east coast has a great Vintage Community, and from the sounds of it, California does too (correct me if I'm wrong).   Now the major problem is... How do we get ALL these communities together to gain maximum attendance?

The answer:  We don't.

I have been wanting to go to a waterbury event with the ICBM crew from the Milwaukee area, but with gas reaching 2.49 a gallon around here (I don't know what it's like in other area's)  the trip is FAR less worth it even for fun factor, as when you put 5 guys in hotels for 3 nights, it's gunna cost 100 bucks a person at least, then you have gas, which is about 50 a person if you drive in a full car, plus you have all the other expenses.

[yespuhyren]

Ppl want to play Vintage no matter the final prize.. If you want to play Vintage to make money.. shame on you!

Most people who know me know I don't play to always win, I don't play to the tournament scene using netdecks, I PLAY FOR FUN.   Last tournament I went to had 8 people, and I decided to just have fun, hell, I ran a deck with

4x Juggernaut
4x Su-Chi
4x Synod Centurion
3x Eater of Days
3x Razormane Masticore
4x Mishra's Factory
3x LOXODON WARHAMMER
2x Sword of fire and ice
2x lightning greaves

The point is I was playing FOR FUN.  and I had fun.  Most people don't know the joy of smashing with a factory equipped by a warhammer.  Its not common, but it won games and I HAD FUN DOING IT.  

Hell,  I'd be just as happy having "gatherings" just to play people for fun.  I just love to play

EDIT: check this link

http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=418609#418609

Its my post on SCG about the same topic.  It is proof that anyone with cards already can work their way up to T1 cards if they make the effort.

[Smmenen]

JD:
I'm not saying that they won't do more P9 events - I'm saying that it is a possibility that we need to be prepared to face.  I assumed no more for the purposes of a hypothetical to illustrate a point.

The reason I started this dialogue now instead of six months from now is becuase six months from now it will be too late.  I think that increasing the number of proxies for the SCG events could help draw in more people and make it more likely that these events will continue.  See my point?