It's time to have a Serious Discussion about Proxies Again

[martyr]

I agree with you 100% Roland. I was just saying that the current proxy rules issued by SCG do not allow them. I would be really happy to see that change so that players could use them in SCG events.

Amen. Perhaps, as stores come out with their own proxies (as I'm certain they are wont to do, now), SCG TOs could approve sets of them. Right now, as far as I know, the only "good" proxies are the Gamingetc ones, so those would be legal as would any proxie made out of a basic land.

[Lunar]

I havnt yet seen a gamingetc proxy in person...but id be suprised to find that they were not different enough even in sleeves to be legal...besides not having the proper magic back (which is copyrighted) they dont have the same card stock, which means different feel and different weight...it may be difficult to tell, but im sure somebody could figure out which was which and cheat with them...beyond that they really arent that cool if you ask me...

One thing we have here in Northern California is a shop who offers proxies made up by the artists themselves...a well know power artist makes up proxies of his power card on blank magic cards or on top of whatever you want him to for a price...not super cheap, but better than shelling out several hundred for the real stuff in some cases...He even does series of them and you get a numbered card...say 1/1000 which gives your original artwork a good collectors value...

I dont know if the shop has anybody else besides the one guy, but you could ask im sure

www.whoson1st.org

its in Dublin CA (SF bay area) I think they do eBay auctions of a lot of it too.

[redmage419]

Quote myself from scg:

Ahhh, the age old rehashed proxy debate.I've heard the purist/elitist "we have power/get a job if you want to play" arguments  .
As well as the "real people have real lives with real bills and power is not feasible"  , but the issue has evolved beyond both. Realistically, the print runs on power were quite limited, and, for the format to grow, here AND abroad, proxies are a necessary evil (barring reprints).

As a relatively new player to type one even I realize that 15 is ridiculous and 10 can be rough for certain decks, but there are MANY fun and competitive decks that can be built 10 proxy for little more than the price of a type 2 deck (oath,fcg,tps,fish.....and more)and the cards don't rotate so the values tend to hold or rise on the goodies you DO NEED to get so they are good investments.

10 is generous and wonderful,thank you scg!!!!!

And now, the devils advocate:

P8+4=12 the magic number!!!!!!

Weenie aggro and ritual combo aside(10 proxy is more than enough for them  ), there are three main backbones in vintage,Workshop, Drain, and Bazaar,and 10 proxy is restrictive to those on a budget trying to play any of them. With access to p8 and a playset of one of the above backbones as proxies 9-12 all serious players are included at a reasonable cost comparable to serious type 2 players.And again, the cards DON'T rotate so your goods STAY good. Past these, all you'd really need are things you'd have to invest in for Legacy anyways(f.o.w., duals,etc.).

In conclusion, while 10 proxy is generous, 12 is ideal. It IS still a "collectable" card game and if you can't build it with P8+a backbone playset you're playing the wrong game or having trouble "thinking outside the net.dec box"

End quote.

And now a few extra thoughts,

I find issue with people claiming the supply of p9 is "constant" when in fact it is falling.These cards are over a decade out of print. In the last decade, between cards being played to "unplayable" condition, "kids" loosing them, houses flooded or burned with collections lost, the weak dollar vs. euro (so cards are ebay'd overseas), etc. supply is falling not constant. Early sets were not even printed overseas so for the format to grow WORLDWIDE proxies are a necessary evil for growth.

10 is great, 12 is ideal. Decks running twister (tps) don't "need" 12 so P8+4=12, 12 should be the cap. If one looks at the restricted list (p9 aside) the vast majority are $5-$15 per card, hardly prohibitive to a serious gamer, and these are arguably the "best" cards in the game. Past this, access to P8+a backbone would open the field so that 25% to 50% of decks would not have to be budget fish or some variant.

[Smmenen]

Pete has announced that the P9 series WILl continue into 2006:
http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=279744

[Yare]

Pete has announced that the P9 series WILl continue into 2006:
http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=279744

Well, with that knowledge, how does that change the equation?  The problem still exists, it's just that one barrier has been dealt with.

Edit:

I haven't read the article; I don't have the premium service.

[McBain]

Well ive been playing magic for 8 or so years now, tourneys for the past 5. Only recently have i become hooked on vintage. when i discovered it i was blown away, type 1 was what i had always dreamed of. But dropping thousands on a set of power was never part of the dream.
i have never liked proxies, but in this format they are needed.
reprints of some of the cards in another collectors edition or something would be the ultimate.
Another thing that could be done instead of pug-fugly basic lands blank cards could be made.
these cards would have no text and would just be coloured like a normal magic card, then you could just write in black lotus, draw your own little lotus and even autograph your own dam card for added effect.
I think that 10 is the number of proxies that should be allowed. this is enough that people can make good decks, but will still be required to buy drains or a piece of power or two.

[Revvik]

Question: Due to the price of these cards, would 10 proxies be distorting to the format at all?

Power "8"
2 Staples (2 Mana Drains, Mishra's Workshops, Bazaar of Baghdads)
Requiring the purchase of two more of the said staple.

Comparing those staples in price, Mana Drains are just cheaper.  So, I ask again.  Is 10 proxies causing a distortion, since Mana Drain control is a cheaper alternative under the 10-proxy rule?

[Klep]

To modify an idea Zherbus had a long time ago, it seems to me that the best course of action is to allow unlimited proxies of cards printed only in sets from before Wizards got their printing issues under control (A/B/U, AN, AQ, LE, and The Dark).  This cuts out almost all of the accessability problems, as now people mainly just have to acquire duals and Forces.  This may not quite get the price of a deck down into the $200-$300 range we see in other formats, but it will put a huge dent in it.  Of course, this solution may not be perfect, as duals are already creeping up into the $30+ range and Forces have doubled in price in about a year.  Any other thoughts?

[Dralock]

Any other thoughts?

Just one, as this issue will probably be talked about a lot more and a resolution will be hard to come to.

I am going to plead with people who own more than a playset of rare, high-dollar cards to put your cards back in to the card pool. I know this goes against just about everything that is collecting, but having multiple copies of power, drains, shops, force, duals, and a ton of other high-dollar cards is redundant after the first playset. People snatching up all the power off ebay to make a "wall of power" in their shop is excessive (an urban legend I assume, but I have heard of it, and I think its terrible for Vintage), and those cards need to be in circulation for the people who want them.

I was on Ebay last week and saw a mox beta with a crease pattern that was very familiar go for ~$500. The familiarity came from seeing the card a few months before and bidding on it. The selling price was a brash $325. Thats right, a Beta sapphire for $325, and it was worth that because the card is in such horrible shape, its almost not worth selling. Well at least until now.

So get rid of your "extra sets", put your "playing copies" in your deck and sell off the others. If the price of power keeps rising at this exponential rate, how long will it be before people just lose interest in purchasing it all together? I was rearing to start collecting power just one year ago, when the prices were within my buying range. Now I have to advocate proxies, even though I hate them, just to play at any type of competitive level whatsoever.

Then I go to a shop for an unrelated tournament, and hear some kid has 12 mana drains sitting in a binder that he isn't even using. Thats 3 playsets right there that are out of circulation completely. And this is just some random dude. 

So let your extras free. If you are on a team, and your entire team can pool together to power everyone, any left over power should be sold for the team pot. If you are an individual, buy a damn house or something. But get the cards that are so rare and precious to the game back in to circulation, so we can grow the format, and therefore keep the game healthy.

[Lyle H]

I didn't like 5 proxy and because of that I was a dedicated 1.5 player.  With the announcement of 10 proxy I decided I could go ahead and play Vintage.  I think 10 is the right number, until people start to get hooked on SB fever and the price of Old men of the Sea, Chains, Eye of Chaos and cards of that sort become even harder to find and hit the price that Drains currently sit at.  I traded for Drains at Origins and Purchased 2 Shops last weekend and I now have enough cards to make it worth my time to play Vintage.  I already own most of the harder to find SB cards since they are legal in 1.5. Even if SB fever does hit, I think there should still be some advantage to those that actually own the cards.  It might suck, but this game is still collectible and that aspect needs to remain to some degree.

Sometimes I wish they could just reprint the crap, it would suck just as much as it would be cool.  It is unfortunate that the early cards were only printed in America then some in Italian, so the print run that was meant to be good for a few people to play with before the game had even caught on, now must be shared globaly.It really makes you wish Wizards would have printed Dual Lands and Power and such on into 4th edition.

[Andersfromsweden]

I think that 10 proxies is plenty, if not to mutch.
Why? If every tornament was 10 proxies who would bye power? All expensiv cards vould drop i price.
Pleas dont comment on my english, i now its terribel.

[Moridar]

Hmmm...  I think it is time that WotC does something to this problem with good hard to find cards.  ie Power 9 and other random 50 dollar or more cards.  They have reprinted Sol Ring as a DCI foil and why not start adding to the list of DCI high end foils...  I see them hitting Demonic Tutor and then doing the unthinkable.  DCI Foil power cards...   Have them for tournaments that they run.  Top 8 get 1 of each of them and then what ever is left over goes out randomly to who ever sticks it out.

With events running as proxy WotC is losing stats for how many games are being played in the different formats.  I would like to see them start allowing proxy events as DCI events. 

As for the number of proxy cards that should be allowed is 10.  This gives you the P9 and a LoA.  Then if you want more...  1 buck for each of them.  But people have to get a sharpie and write the name of the card they want to proxy on it.  None of this pen crap...  and use light colored cards like plains and such...

I know a lot of people have spent thousands on buying power and such...  But more cards are needed for the format.  If there was more cards available this wouldn't be a discussion on the number of proxies allowed for events...

Wayne

[Firefly]

@Moridar, but if they would reprint Power as DCI foils they would limit the printing to 1 or 2 tournaments. They really don't want to reprint things on the reserved list.
And those DCI foiled powercards would be even more expensive than regular power, so what would be the point?

And imagine how all those people you know, who spent thousands of dollars on power and such, would think about reprinting on a larger scale? I know I would be furious, I didn't spend that money to see my cards decrease in value. And Wizards wants to keep a certain market value, MTG is still a collectible cardgame.

It would be nice for the format to see some DCI-sanctioned proxy-tournaments, with real powercards as prizesupport. This way, good players with a smaller budget can own power too and compete in the high-end tournaments which should be non-proxy. The quality of the big tournaments would go up this way.

[Whatever Works]

I would fully support an updated reprint set similar to chronicals. Chronicals reprinted several of the old legends/dark/antiquities/arabian night's cards. They could use a newer version of the set and if they do I would want them to go all out. I mean every expensive card ever printed. The set would be completly illegal in extended/standard (similar to portal), but legal in vintage/legacy, and all cards from this reprint set would have gold borders. Not on the back, but on the actually face of the card.

They could make all of type 1's money rares be ultra rares (equivilent of yugio i guess). By doing this it would open the door for type 1 to be supported by wizards again (if it ever was), and would generate huge money from players clamoring to get into the format they could only dream of once upon a time. Doing this the price of power I would guess would drop about 10-15% (the cards would still be older and wouldnt have gold borders), and its not like pro tour players dont like to be pimp.

Just a possible solution coming from a realist who is willing to have his beta signed power 9 drop in value for the chance to one day use them in a grand prix.

Kyle L.

[Draven]

Another thing that could be done instead of pug-fugly basic lands blank cards could be made.
these cards would have no text and would just be coloured like a normal magic card, then you could just write in black lotus, draw your own little lotus and even autograph your own dam card for added effect.

Actually, these do exist in the Championship decks. The back is a black MTG Championship deck, but it is still MTG card stock and the front is just a blank card template with a white art box and a white text box. Pretty handy for proxies actually. Good call though!

[aTn]

North of the border, in Montreal and more generally in the province of Quebec, most vintage tournaments this year have followed the rule 10 proxies + 1$ each additionnal proxy. This has been the best solution thus far. Setting an arbitrary limit to the number of proxies would not have put all players on equal grounds, making some archetypes out of the proxy range of some players (for example The Riddler with max 10 proxies). This would have been an obstacle to seeing new faces in the format. Not allowing proxies at all would mean facing the fact that vintage would eventually stagnate and then eventually decline.

Another solution, suggested by someone on the SCG forum, would be to give a player two choices:

1) 10 proxies max (any card can be proxied)

This would give people who own P9, drains, etc. the chance to proxy stuff like Jitte, etc.

2) Any number of proxies of cards from sets before the Dark (as Klep via Zherbus suggested)

This would help to put people on equal grounds, making all archetypes equally accessible. As someone said on SCG, this is a condition that must be satisfied if this format is to stop its slow decline (partially caused by the low number of P9 printed).

A problem that remains is to have readable proxies, i.e. proxies that don't cause a headache when you duress someone with a hand full of basic lands with black marker written on them.


@AndersfromSweden:

I think the buy/trade market of P9 will eventually stagnate, because of the relatively low number of P9 printed compared to the global demand (ok, this is just speculation). On the other hand, if not enough proxies are allowed, people who can't play the deck they want to play will exit the format. In the long term, only owners of P9 and a few others will play the format - this looks like not a lot of people if you think of it being world wide.   

[Draven]

Just a little off topic, but amusing either way. My friend and I were watching TV while preparing for a Vintage tournament. While flipping the channels, the Home Shopping Network caught my eye. It was selling a "Geniune 14k Gold/ Pearl Necklace." The selling price was like $80.00 or something. The point? A card with a picture of a pearl necklace is worth 4-5 times the amount of the real thing. That is nuts! :shock:

Okay, resume normal discussions

[CrazyCarl]

Any other thoughts?

Just one, as this issue will probably be talked about a lot more and a resolution will be hard to come to.

I am going to plead with people who own more than a playset of rare, high-dollar cards to put your cards back in to the card pool. I know this goes against just about everything that is collecting, but having multiple copies of power, drains, shops, force, duals, and a ton of other high-dollar cards is redundant after the first playset. People snatching up all the power off ebay to make a "wall of power" in their shop is excessive (an urban legend I assume, but I have heard of it, and I think its terrible for Vintage), and those cards need to be in circulation for the people who want them.

I was on Ebay last week and saw a mox beta with a crease pattern that was very familiar go for ~$500. The familiarity came from seeing the card a few months before and bidding on it. The selling price was a brash $325. Thats right, a Beta sapphire for $325, and it was worth that because the card is in such horrible shape, its almost not worth selling. Well at least until now.

So get rid of your "extra sets", put your "playing copies" in your deck and sell off the others. If the price of power keeps rising at this exponential rate, how long will it be before people just lose interest in purchasing it all together? I was rearing to start collecting power just one year ago, when the prices were within my buying range. Now I have to advocate proxies, even though I hate them, just to play at any type of competitive level whatsoever.

Then I go to a shop for an unrelated tournament, and hear some kid has 12 mana drains sitting in a binder that he isn't even using. Thats 3 playsets right there that are out of circulation completely. And this is just some random dude. 

So let your extras free. If you are on a team, and your entire team can pool together to power everyone, any left over power should be sold for the team pot. If you are an individual, buy a damn house or something. But get the cards that are so rare and precious to the game back in to circulation, so we can grow the format, and therefore keep the game healthy.

Someone's a Socialist.

[Moridar]

Yeah it is collectable and it is a game.  

Where does the Type 1 format go when it is 1000 bucks for each piece of power and there is only 1 set of power for ever 50-100 type 1 players.  When proxy events are the only type 1 events ever and WotC drops support for the format due to lack of card pool based on the demand fer existing cards.   Then we will have a drop in card prices.

I went to the SSG Type 1 in Rochester...  There was tonnes of proxied cards.  Most were the power 9 and the prices are healthy and high.  WotC wouldn't flood the market all at once for these cards but release a limited number of them...  Do a series of them x/x number of cards...  You would know exactly how many of these cards have been infused into the game.   With Alpha at 2.6 million cards and Beta at 7.8 million cards there just isn't enough cards to keep up with the demand.  I'm not about to do the math on how many power 9 cards exist in the world.  Then how many are sitting in collections or destroyed.

So we are left with proxy events.  Because if WotC doesn't change their mind about reprints we'll have a format that no one can afford unless they bought in early or tonnes of disposable income to spend on Type 1.  This is a touchy subject mainly because it involves dollars.  Someone bought the original card and uses it for a game.  It cost them money.  They want to sell it someday hopefully for more money than what they paid for it.  

Wayne

[M]

N proxy + X$ per additional proxy (no limit)

If you are going to do this, then you might as well set N equal to zero because you can always adjust the cost per proxy, X, to fit you preference, and you avoid having to choose an arbitrary nonzero number of free proxies to allow. You could even consider a non-linear proxy cost X(N), (i.e. the cost of the first few proxies would be symbolical, the cost of 75 proxies astronomical).

[Milton]

Every tournament format has barriers to entry.  The least expensive format, in regards to tournament participation, is draft and sealed events.  The most expensive is Type I.  Most argue that barriers to entry limit participation in our format, and relaxing barriers to entry by allowing proxies will help our format grow.  This is a reasonable argument, but at what point does the integrity of the format suffer?

Is the high barrier to entry for Type I damaging to the format?

 Â    Most would say that cost of cards prohibits entry into tournaments by many, severely limiting tournament participation.  From the perspective of tournament attendance, unlimited proxies would allow maximum participation by the most players.  Unlimited proxies, however, could potentially infuse the tournament with a large number of bad players who have a limited understanding of the format, of the rules and of the decorum of a tournament as an event.  Also, unlimited proxies might severely diminish utility for a player who is unproxied.  Surely unlimited and unregulated proxies lead to worse play, more mistakes by opponents and greater match time spent reading messy proxies that would otherwise be instantly recognizable.  Also, unlimited and unregulated proxies can potentially lead to greater occurrences of cheating and dishonest play (imagine Duressing an opponent who has seven identical cards scribbled with black marker, some words scratched out, intentionally misspelled to be misleading...).

 Â    Allowing no proxies prevents confusion and should, theoretically, lead to the highest level of play.  This assumes that people who are serious about the format will be serious about finding the cards to be competitive in the format, even if that means buying or borrowing expensive older cards.  Also, individuals who have obtained older expensive cards prior to high prices increases have to remain current by buying newer cards that improve their decks.  Lastly, no proxies means there is no possibility of a mistake being made to do poor proxy quality, which should increase play level.  From this perspective, the barrier to entry is positive in that it keeps out all but the most serious player.

 Â    So, theoretically, no proxies leads to highest levels of play quality while unlimited proxies leads to greatest number of participants.  Limiting the number of proxies seeks to balance the two while still maintaining a barrier to entry that ensures the participant is somewhat serious about the format.  Traditionally (past four years or so) the number of proxies was limited to five.  Five proxies allowed the participant to build a decent, competitive deck but required the player to collect all but the most expensive of cards.  Five proxy limits recognized that the player without every good, expensive card couldn't build every good, expensive deck.  The five proxy limit rewarded the individual who had every card by forcing the proxied player to play sometimes sub-optimal decks.

 Â    Ten proxies, which is becoming increasingly trendy, allows most participants to play with the very best cards and build all but the most expensive of decks.  Participants are still required to collect, but, at most, they have to buy or borrow two or three cards that cost over $100.  For most, this is considered an acceptable barrier to entry (find the two or three expensive cards needed or play a less expensive deck).  The participant is still required to collect numerous cards that range from $5-$30, but even average collectors should be able to find or borrow most of those cards easily.  I most highly endorse the 10 proxy limit.  I find that 10 proxies allows for the highest level of tournament participation while maintaining the integrity of the format.

 Â    If ten proxies is good, twelve is better, right?  Or twenty?  No.  At some point tournament play gets worse.  Bad players who don't take the format seriously will compete in tournaments.  Instances of mistakes and cheating will increase.  I understand that 12 proxies is an attempt to get Legacy crossover (after all, if they have the duals, forces, brainstorms and fetches already, they can proxy the rest).  If the player is serious and WANTS to be in our format and WANTS to take the format seriously, they will find the cards and be competitive within the 10 proxy limit.

[ctthespian]

Yeah it is collectable and it is a game.  

I'm not about to do the math on how many power 9 cards exist in the world.  Then how many are sitting in collections or destroyed.

So we are left with proxy events.  Because if WotC doesn't change their mind about reprints we'll have a format that no one can afford unless they bought in early or tonnes of disposable income to spend on Type 1.

Wayne

Easy math

POWER
 4,300  Limited Rare (Alpha+Beta)
18,500  Unlimited Rare
--------------
22,800 Sets of Power

 5,000  International Collector's Set
10,000  Collector's Set
-------------
43,800  Sets of Power including Collectors edition sets

Shops and Bazaars

31,000  Arabian U3
31,000  Antiquities U1
31,000/4 = 7,750 Playsets of Workshops + Bazaars

58,000  Legends U1
58,000/4 = 14500 Playsets of ENGLISH mana drains.  (I'm not sure of the Italian Legends print run and rarities)

As for my feeling on Proxies I've always felt the minumum to be competitive is enough.  Long gone are the days when I think 5 is still enough so I'd settle on 10.  13 would be my limit as you can then use full power 9 plus a set of shops, bazaars or drains.

[CrazyCarl]

Personally I prefer 5 and then something like $0.50 a piece for the next five, then a dollar for each thereafter.

[Dante]

Milton's post is an excellent post - it highlights something I think was underlying what Steve was getting at with his original post.

Steve said:

People don't play this format in tournament with suboptimal decks   If they can't play the optimal decks, they tend not to come.  And they are right.

The big question that I think Steve M was asking us, as players, to think about and then voice an opinion on is not really "how many proxies should we use", but rather - "What is the ideal end state of Vintage you want in terms of growth".  Once you answer that question, then "how many proxies" is just a result of "how much do we want vintage to grow?".

Obviously the initial 5-proxy rule served to generate a great amount of interest over the past 3 years and tournaments went from local 20 person gatherings to regular 100+ tournaments (waterbury, SCG, gencon, etc).

But as Steve pointed out, even with Fish being a great deck, many people chose not to attend rather than play with "only" 5 proxies.  So 5 proxy generated a certain amount of growth for the format, but then we hit a plateau, which a ten-proxy rule seems to be moving us past.

So think about it by looking at the extremes - if you want Vintage to be a "real" format and by real I mean where they could have an actual Pro Tour (i.e. hundres of PTQs plus the casual and Friday following of said format) you'd have to allow almost unlimited proxy, or at least somewhere in the range of 30ish.  On the other side, if you want Vintage to back closer to 2001/2002 (at least in the US), take away the proxy rule. 

In Summary [of my long ramblings], I don't think it makes sense for an individual to discuss how many proxies they feel is right unless they have an idea of where they feel the format should head. 

Bill

[xrizzo]

So think about it by looking at the extremes - if you want Vintage to be a "real" format and by real I mean where they could have an actual Pro Tour (i.e. hundres of PTQs plus the casual and Friday following of said format) you'd have to allow almost unlimited proxy, or at least somewhere in the range of 30ish.  On the other side, if you want Vintage to back closer to 2001/2002 (at least in the US), take away the proxy rule. 

While I agree with most everything else you said, I disagree with vintage EVER reverting back to 2001/2002.  Taking away proxies will not take away all the innovation.  If you are simply referring to the number of people that play, I see a stronger relation in that argument.  The way you wrote it gave me the immediate impression that you meant all aspects of vintage in 2001/2002, not just the number of interested players.

On the number of proxy debate, I like Carl's solution (or variant) the best as well.  The simple explanation being that if you don't have power, you can 'rent' it for the day.  You can only rent for so long before you realize it is advantageous to buy...

[Dante]

While I agree with most everything else you said, I disagree with vintage EVER reverting back to 2001/2002.  Taking away proxies will not take away all the innovation.  If you are simply referring to the number of people that play, I see a stronger relation in that argument.  The way you wrote it gave me the immediate impression that you meant all aspects of vintage in 2001/2002, not just the number of interested players.

I was really just talking about number of people and turnout.  I agree - you can't "unlearn" the type of deckbuilding advances we've seen since then.

[Khahan]

I think this whole debate comes down to this question (going on the assumption that you do want the format to be able to grow)
Do you simply want to make the format more accessible to everybody or do you want to have card accessibility be as even of a playing field as possible?


If you want the format to simply be more accessible, then 10 proxies is just fine. As noted many times, it gives all players access to reasonably competitive decks and a reasonable amount of brokeness.  However, it does leave a few decks available only to a select 'few' who happen to have at least a few power, full set of drains, bazaars or workshops.

In this answer, if a player is good enough, he can win a tournament  here or there and 'earn' his way to those otherwise inaccessible decks. This is the category I personally fall into. I'm trying to become good enough to win a few tournaments here or there and fill out some of my expensive card slots. 

At least for me, this method actually adds motivation. I have another reason for wanting to win a tournament. Not the prestige. Not to get 'another power card' that I'll just sell on e-bay or add to my collection for style.  I can earn something I don't have. Something that can  help me and something that I could actually use.

The flip side is wanting the playing field to not be affected by card pool (with respect to brokeness). If you go this route, I think the proper number of proxies is 13. As another posted noted above this allows for the full P9 contigency plus a play set of either Drains, Bazaars or Workshops (you could even argue 14 and include Library in the equation).

This is good as it makes the format more appealing to the casual player or to a younger crowd who doesn't have $100 to drop on a card (or $250 or $500 or $1000).  It also makes it more accessible to a growing demographic of Magic Player...the late 20, early 30 something male who is married, has kids, car payments, mortgage etc.

The downside...well the downside is for the people over the past year or 2 who have spent the big bucks on acquiring a few pieces of power. If they bought power just to be able to play more decks, they just lost money. Of course if they also collect or like to show off, it shouldn't be a big deal.


Personally, I think 10 proxies is enough. It gives all access to enough competitive decks so that there will be variety and competition.  But those old collectors and players and the ones who have invested some cash actually get something back for the dedication and investment. Ok, it may not be much. But if they want to play a fully powered dragon they can if all they have is 3-4 of the expensive cards.

[Draven]

I have a mostly full set of playing power. I have All the power except the Ruby and I have 3 Drains, so I have a relatively solid set of Vintage stuff. I go to proxy tournaments all the time and usually proxy a Drain, the Ruby and sometimes random stuff and sometimes not. (Last month I proxied a couple Pithing Needles just to try them out with out dumping $40.00 on a test.)

One thing I do have to say, it is a good feeling to play your real Black Lotus sitting across from the guy who Sharpied the words Black Lotus on an Onslaught Plains. I am a collecter though, so I enjoy the pride that comes with playing with real power.

Finally, if the format ever goes to "Unlimited" roxies, I don't think I would continue to play in Vintage tournies. I think that would dilute the format too much.

[49 Cents]

That just isn't magic anymore.. If you proxy like 40 cards, go and play some other game, It just isn't any fun anymore.

[Milton]

Finally, if the format ever goes to "Unlimited" roxies, I don't think I would continue to play in Vintage tournies. I think that would dilute the format too much.

This is the dilemma.  It's hard to take the format seriously when the costs of the staple cards are so high, but it's even harder to take the format seriously when a 10 year old plays a Portal forest scribbled with the words Black Lotus.

The question is, what do you want the format to look like?  If your only concern is tournament attendence, then unlimited proxies allows for the largest tournament participation.  If you want the format to be more serious, for serious minded players and collectors who have to work hard to find the cards to enter to format, then allowing no proxies is the way to go.

So, as with anything, balance is the key.  Limiting number of proxies allows for increased participation, but forces participants to take deckbuilding and collecting somewhat seriously.  Limiting proxies to a specific number allows us to invite more good players into the foramt, which should increase play level, while still maintaining some format integrity (assuming such a thing exists).  Sure, you still get the annoying guy with Black Lotus scribbled illegibilly on a Forest, but you should get a better level of play overall.

Also, it's absurd to limit proxies to only expensive, scarce cards.  This actually punishes people who already have the older cards by not allowing them to proxy the new stuff.

Lastly, I would like to add that, from my personal experience, the format is just absolutely huge right now.  A shitton of new players have entered our format over the past two years.  Many of these new players are great guys, solid players who have enhanced our format.  Others, though, are just plain dickweeds.  I remember one annoying kid insulting me for having power (the whole "your stupid.  sell your power and proxy").  Side note, I have noticed a backlash among many who don't have power agaisnt those who do.  The "you think you're so cool because you have power" grap gets pretty old.  I know that it's only poorly veiled jealously, but grow up.

Also, many of the new players don't have the human factor.  I remember going to tournaments and asking people about their families, their jobs.  Meeting friends.  Chatting for hours about stuff.  Actually caring about the people I played against.  You had to care about your opponents back then.  Those people were all that was keeping the format (or local metagame) together, and you became pretty attached, even though you would only see eachother once every few months.  Now, that human factor is hard to find in opponents.  If we continue to grow, and not care, we will continue to see tournament reports that read "round 1 opponent playing WTF, don't know his name, I won 2-1.  Round 2 opponent, don't know his name, won 2-0 in 10 minutes...".  Allowing large numbers of proxies will expand our format, but at what cost?