Proxy Poll

[CrazyCarl]

Alright.  Enough is freaking enough.  Multiple solutions to the "Power Problem" have been offered, many of them crap, some of them a great idea.  I HOPE this poll will get SOMETHING settled.

[Machinus]

I have a good opinion of both options 4 and 5, but I voted for 4 because I think that is overall a better solution to the card scarcity problem.

[yespuhyren]

I don't like 4, cause if i'm missing some random odds and ends rares, uncommons, and commons, and the store hosting the event doesn't have them in stock, then i'm screwed out of my deck, whereas a player who is missing a full set of P9 is ok and ready to go.

[Moridar]

The available card pool is forcing proxies.  It will someday collapse under the weight of the demand.

Wayne

[vartemis]

The other alternative i was thinking about was a hybrid of 4 and 1.  Anything over $100 can be proxied, and you get to also proxy any 4 other cards.  This allows you to proxy power and bazaar, workshop and drains, but also 1 playset of something you couldnt find before the tournament.  You should be able to find the majority of the deck otherwise. Now I know this could be around 17 proxies, more if you are combining drains with other stuff, but it also helps both sides.

j

[Johnni86]

I voted 5-10 with the ability to buy more.  From the tournement organizer's point of view this is the best option because it allows people to try the format without a large initial investment so if they like it they may go out an buy the real stuff because in the long run having the real stuff is a better deal.  As far as the market for the high end cards goes this keeps the prices stable but could increase demand.  As far as a crash is concerned with this market it is highly unlikely because you have collectors and player allike trying to get this stuff not to mention a seemingly endless pool of new commers, those ext and standard players who have the means of investing in the high end cards.  Do note that this demand is a result of the increase in major type 1 events, i personally only started to seriously play type 1 because there where decent prizes, i feel that this is the major lore for other players along with the general format.  So i feel that by lowering the number of proxies you restrict the number of new players.  I also feel that any more complicated systems would cause trouble with people, players and organizers alike.  As for people not being able to find random cards you should come to a tournement prepared.

[Yare]

I voted for the "proxy tax" option where you get a certain number then have to pay for so many beyond the initial amount.  As I have iterated before, I would put some hard cap (like 20) on the total number of proxies one can have so people don't proxy a ridiculous percentage of his or her deck.

[Dante]

you forgot a key number in the poll - power 9 + playset of OOP = 13.

13-15 is my limit.  I HATE playing against lands with shit written on them because so much of the gameplay and memory/state of the board is based on knowing cards by art/glance.

Bill

[Meddling Mike]

I think ten seems to be working out just fine, requires a commitment and some thought to get into the game but makes the format accessible to anybody with any kind of income.

[Firefly]

Well, tournament organisers could supply the players with proxies printed on a blank card (as found in the World championship decks). It don't know how WOTC would feel about this (copyright, legal issues etc.) but it would certainly solve your problem, Dante.

[Whatever Works]

The "Proxy Tax" was always an interesting concept, but never made sense to me for this reason??? Wouldnt the people who dont own the power 9, etc. Also be the same people who likely lack the money required to pay the proxy tax?

I dont know but it just seems odd that the people who are all ready "financially behind" in terms of power etc. would have to pay more money. While the kids who have $ for the cards pay less. I have power so its not an issue for me, but doesnt it seem kind of hypocritical???

Kyle L

[Firefly]

In a way it does, yes. But $1 for each proxy after the set of P9 and a playset of Drains, Shops, Bazaars doesn't seem that ridiculous. It's not like they are so poor they have to proxy their whole deck.

I have power too, so it's not an issue for me either. But you can't play T1 if you have no funds at all. If you can't even afford a set of duals, why bother paying $4 (or more) each tournament, it'll cost you in the end. We have to face it, our beloved T1 will always stay kind of 'elite' even if we have proxy tournaments.

[jpmeyer]

I wish that there was a feasible way to do the proxy tax system in a tourney with 100+ players.

[Marton]

we have been using the proxy tax system in canada since the beginning of the year and I havent heard of a single complaint so far. I am partially powered, and it both suits me now, and back when I wasn't powered as well.

[JACO]

I wish that there was a feasible way to do the proxy tax system in a tourney with 100+ players.

I don't see how it's NOT a feasible system. If you already have tournaments that are 10 proxy, and are charging $25 for them, then having people pay $1 each for each additional proxy beyond 10 is fairly simple.

The feasible way to accomplish this can be broken down in a few simple steps:
1) Require decklists from all competitors, and have a special section on the sheet where the registrant will specify what cards they have proxied.
2) Require proxies be made as some sort of standard (for example, SCG Vintage Circuit says this, "Proxies must be created by modifying a basic land card. Photocopies of cards or slips of paper added to a card are not acceptable."). This standard will help competitors identify proxies during the matches, and help judges during deck checks.
3) In any tournament that is serious (i.e. any Power tournament, SCG series, etc.), your judges should be doing random deck checks every round anyway (and are required to at DCI sanctioned REL3 and above tournaments). During this deck check you can also check to see if the correct number of cards are proxied. When doing a deck check you sort the whole deck out anyway, so just put the cards that are proxied in one pile. After all, they should be easily identifiable, as most tournaments are requiring proxies made on basic lands now.
4) If any competitor has more proxies than are listed on the deck registration sheet, penalize them immediately. This could include a match loss for their current match, or if you fear that 'cheating the proxy tax' would be a real problem, then have the penalty be immediate disqualification/ejection from the tournament. That should be enough of a deterrent to prevent registrants from trying to save a couple of dollars.

It's not very much of a hassle at all to go about running tournaments this way if your tournaments are being well run to begin with.

Using a 'Proxy Tax' system rewards players who have already invested in cards they will not need to proxy, draws more competitors into the tournaments, creates a more even playing field, does not punish the Magic singles market, and is not very difficult to run. I believe this should be the system by which all proxy tournaments are run, and it is certainly the way I will run mine when I run large events (*cough*foreshadowing*cough).

[Whatever Works]

The only New England Tourneys that do deck checks with any consistency are waterbury and SCG events, and I have only seen these checks for the top 8, or the round right before the top 8 in the case of waterbury. However, penalizing a person for the # of proxys I feel is absolutely wrong. I have trouble holding anything against a player who just wants to be able to compete with an optimal deck.

[Necrologia]

With most people seeming to think that slightly more than 10 proxies is ideal, I don't see a problem with 5-10 proxies plus a few bucks for more. Nice for the TO, nice for the players.

[Xenoben187]

I think it should be 5 proxy with $1 more per proxy.  That way, people who have spent their hard earned money on power so they can be competitive don't get screwed because player B is also paying for his right to use power.  I don't care what way you look at it, if a kid is going to fork out 25 dollars to enter a tournament, odds are they will fork out 30 regardless of income.

[Ben Kossman]

we have been using the proxy tax system in canada since the beginning of the year and I havent heard of a single complaint so far. I am partially powered, and it both suits me now, and back when I wasn't powered as well.

It seems like the best option to me as well. The problem is that it screws up gameplay. Maybe people should have to put their proxies upside down so the opponent won't have as much difficulty recognizing the cards.

[Komatteru]

I can see there being some issues in 100+ player tournaments.  Here's where I see problems occurring:

A solid number of players get there late, or are still making a deck choice 10 minutes before the tournament starts.  Such last minute scrambling often involves trying to locate all the right cards for one's deck. The current system allows you to pay your entrance fee and then figure out your deck after you're registered, meaning you have to conform to the specified proxy limit.  You can't say, "Shit, I'm missing, ________, I'll just make it my 11th proxy."  Or perhaps someone says, "Dude, that card is crap, play ____ instead" but no one around has that card available for sale/borrow.  You can make those changes when you have the tax system, and it would likely be foolish not to, since playing with a non-optimal deck is probably worse than paying an extra dollar for the right card.  However, it is likely that this realization will not be made by some players until about a minute before the first round, or player meeting/collection of decklists.  Clearly, the TOs would need to designate on the decklists that a player has paid for additional proxies.  Think about it.  In additon to all the last minute entries, you'd have a few dozen players or so needing to pay a few additional dollars for the last minute proxy additions to their decks.  This creates a big clutter of people at the registration desk, which is sure to make life difficult for everyone and lead to yet more delays (since most large tournaments start at least 15 minutes late).

And don't say "that won't happen" because it certainly will.  At every big tournament I've ever been too--regardless of format--a good half the players are still dicking around with their deck five minutes before the tournament is scheduled to start.  Last year at Gencon at the Vintage Championship, Josh Franklin (onelovemachine) realized that he had somehow mananged to misplace his (borrowed) Ancestral Recall five minutes before the event was going to start.  If that had been a proxy tax system and he had been out of proxies, he would have likely gone up and paid $1 to proxy the Ancestral then worried about finding it (he ended up finding it in another rook case of his).  With 150-200 people playing in a tournament, a fair amount of that is bound to happen (Magic players are generally horribly unorganized), and it could get to be a real mess.  When you only have 30-50 people, this is all managable.

That said, I really like the concept of a proxy tax system.  I hope there's a way to make it work.  We're already on an honor system to obey specified proxy limits, and I've never heard of any violations of that.  I'm sure the same honor code would hold up well under the tax system.

[shade88]

@ jdizzle

Where I do tourneys in nor cal, the to's collect the deck registration sheets about 5 minutes before the game play starts. I believe it would be really easy to just have people pay the $20 or whatever price up front, then give the to's the extra few bucks they need for proxies. If a player knows he needs them, it is a simple enough matter break a five dollar bill before hand. The honor system would work perfectly

The same logic could be applied to larger tourneys. And, if people are dishonest, the random deck checks will do the trick.
a.) that person pays the extra money
b.) he or she is give appropriate punishment

[xrizzo]

First off, I voted for option 4: 5 proxies for free, $.50-1.00 after.  I really like where this thread is going, and like that the community also likes this option.

The other alternative i was thinking about was a hybrid of 4 and 1.  Anything over $100 can be proxied, and you get to also proxy any 4 other cards.  This allows you to proxy power and bazaar, workshop and drains, but also 1 playset of something you couldnt find before the tournament.  You should be able to find the majority of the deck otherwise. Now I know this could be around 17 proxies, more if you are combining drains with other stuff, but it also helps both sides.

This doesn't help both sides.  It penalizes people with power.  If everyone can power all power cards, then why own them?  If you proxy the FULL POWER NINE, I better be able to proxy Shattering Pulse!

Somewhere someone wrote that the 'proxy tax' helps out the TO.  I view it as a tax to the other players who own power.  It increases the prize-pool (or helps support a more aggressive pool) without forcing commmitted players (at least ones with power) to pay for the whole thing.  A 'proxy tax' levels the playing field, AND makes supporting good prizes easier. 

I have no limit to the number of cards someone proxies.  If you want to pay $25 for 10 proxies, and then another $50 for cards 11-60, I am okay with that.  It basically ups the prize pool from 1 person to 3!  At some point, you either do incredibly well and win power, or you buy it...  This almost forces the secondary market up a bit.  As I mentioned above, Shattering Pulse is $.05 to buy, but $1 to proxy.  This makes the card essentially $1 at the tournament (something the store likes) and drives people to pick up more obscure cards when they have the chance for fear of needing an extra. 

@Punishment for cheating the proxy tax
It should definately be a match loss.  If it is 1 card off, and the T8, it shouldn't be a tournament DQ, but it SHOULD be the TO's discretion.  If you are cheating the system, then you are cheating the game...

[Revvik]

The system might also help TOs and stores who, without it, might have ended up losing money on tournaments, something I've seen happen often.

[yespuhyren]

I think it should be 5 proxy with $1 more per proxy.  That way, people who have spent their hard earned money on power so they can be competitive don't get screwed because player B is also paying for his right to use power.  I don't care what way you look at it, if a kid is going to fork out 25 dollars to enter a tournament, odds are they will fork out 30 regardless of income.

I agree with that, because I figure if I can manage to buy full P9, then 5 proxies is enough to help people finish up decks, and $1 extra per proxy is a high enough charge that hopefully people will want to start buying their own cards if they play in enough tournaments.

To put this in perspective, I'm 17, and I got my full set of P9 and shops, and everything else I have ON MY OWN.  I used the money I had saved up for basically my life, lol, and if I can do it, I have confidence that others can as well

[forests failed you]

I would definitely be in favor of limiting the number of proxies in Vintage events to somewhere between 5-10.  It seems that with the increase in the price of power, that the price to begin playing the format is just too steep for new players to have much of a chance at playing the best decks.  However, this has always kind of been an intrinsic part of Vintage; or, rather there has always been a sort of learning curve built into the format.
 Â For instance, players tend to be drawn to this particular format because of the allure and lustre of playing with the extremely expensive and powerful cards, or also players like the nostalgia of playing with the old cards.

I remember when I started out playing Vintage and didn't have any power, and had to win much of it playing bad and underpowered decks.  Growing up as part of the Vintage Magic tradition, there always seemed to be a progression that Vintage players would tend to go through as they entered our metagame and accumulated better, and better cards.  They would start out playing Sligh or MBC, and then accumulate more cards and play Fish, and then get Drains and play control, or Shops or whatever.  

My point is that by going through a progression and actually working, trading, and acquiring the cards to play ones deck over time, that person learned more about the format and had a greater appreciation for the Vintage as a whole.  And I have always thought that this was a really cool system that tended to really get players involved and keep them interested in the format, as well as actually committing to acquiring the cards over time.  Unfortunately with the explosion of the market and ridiculous prices of power and chase cards the investment is just huge, and I agree that players new to the format definitely need some help.

However, to me, giving unlimited or 10+ proxies just doesn't seem to be in the flavor of the format.  Specifically, Vintage isn't a pro format, and there really isn't any big money at stake here.  Honestly, for better or for worse, Vintage has always been a format founded on inequality of cards, elitism and ego.  From my experiences with the game, Type I has always been a format that, at its core, is about personal pride, ingenuity of concept within a gigantic card pool, collectability, and nostalgic nods to the history of the game of Magic the Gathering.

Personally, I have never played with proxies (even when I didn't have the cards), nor would I ever consider playing with them.  But, I understand why new players would want to use proxies and therefore think that there should be means in place to help them while they are starting off.  My main concern is that proxied endowments try to cultivate new players and turn them into participating members of the Vintage community;  Rather than merely help the random 18 year old standard players who show up to the Starcity events twice a year with completely proxied out decks trying to win a Mox to put on Ebay.

[LessThanRight]

I'm for 5-10 plus 1/$1.  As a relative n00b, proxy tournaments are the only way to get real experience, not only playing with good decks, but against them as well.  If the money were readily available, I'd own every card I need.  Until that time, I'm glad I'm able to proxy.

My local scene offers both proxied and non-p'd events.  It's obvious that the proxy events draw more people.  Proxies=Growth of the Format.

[JACO]

I can see there being some issues in 100+ player tournaments.  Here's where I see problems occurring:

A solid number of players get there late, or are still making a deck choice 10 minutes before the tournament starts.  Such last minute scrambling often involves trying to locate all the right cards for one's deck. The current system allows you to pay your entrance fee and then figure out your deck after you're registered, meaning you have to conform to the specified proxy limit.  You can't say, "Shit, I'm missing, ________, I'll just make it my 11th proxy."  Or perhaps someone says, "Dude, that card is crap, play ____ instead" but no one around has that card available for sale/borrow.  You can make those changes when you have the tax system, and it would likely be foolish not to, since playing with a non-optimal deck is probably worse than paying an extra dollar for the right card.  However, it is likely that this realization will not be made by some players until about a minute before the first round, or player meeting/collection of decklists.  Clearly, the TOs would need to designate on the decklists that a player has paid for additional proxies.  Think about it.  In additon to all the last minute entries, you'd have a few dozen players or so needing to pay a few additional dollars for the last minute proxy additions to their decks.  This creates a big clutter of people at the registration desk, which is sure to make life difficult for everyone and lead to yet more delays (since most large tournaments start at least 15 minutes late).

And don't say "that won't happen" because it certainly will.  At every big tournament I've ever been too--regardless of format--a good half the players are still dicking around with their deck five minutes before the tournament is scheduled to start.  Last year at Gencon at the Vintage Championship, Josh Franklin (onelovemachine) realized that he had somehow mananged to misplace his (borrowed) Ancestral Recall five minutes before the event was going to start.  If that had been a proxy tax system and he had been out of proxies, he would have likely gone up and paid $1 to proxy the Ancestral then worried about finding it (he ended up finding it in another rook case of his).  With 150-200 people playing in a tournament, a fair amount of that is bound to happen (Magic players are generally horribly unorganized), and it could get to be a real mess.

I'm not going to say what's going to or not going to happen. In my experience, the best practice of running a tournament is that the judges and/or T.O. collect the deck registration sheets during the beginning of round 1. I have been to numerous PTQ's that are run this way, and very few players seem to object to this. By doing this at a Type 1 tournament, you can also give those players the extra couple of minutes they need to sort out their cards and get all of their ducks in a row before they actually shuffle up. At this time, if they have some proxy they haven't paid for, they can add an extra dollar at that time. This prevents any clutter at the registration desks, and is simply handled by the judges annotating their deck registration sheets with a special marker or stamp of some kind to note that they have paid X amount extra for X proxies beyond 10.

Frankly, if players are scrambling for cards and swapping things at the last second, they probably aren't going to win anyway. The best decks and performances are usually by those who are prepped well ahead of time, and have tested everything down to the final slots. But this should not be held against those unprepared players, so this is why you can perform the above actions to avoid registration hassles and a bottleneck at registration tables. Even if you have a 400+ person tournament, and let's say a whopping (and unlikely) 10% of people are going to make last minute changes to their decks, and require an additional proxy or two to make this change, then that's only 40 people who would have to pay additionally, whether at their assigned table in round 1 when the judges pick up the registration sheets, or up at the registration table(s).

Most of the onus for this will basically fall to the Tournament Organizer, and accompanying staff. If the tournament is well run to begin with, then most of these things are a non-issue. The only place I see problems occurring is when you run into a lazy and/or incompetent judging staff, in which case, the tournament was probably going to have problems being run smoothly anyway.

[Discozombie]

how about a wacky idea...

REPRINT THEM!!!

Wizards would like it since they are not getting any new money off the ones they have already printed.  People would still want the have the beta ones to pimp out their decks.  Their collector value would still be there but reprints would enable the masses to have access to cards that are dwindling. 

I guess the question comes to this, do the elitists who own power cards want to continue their monopoly of power as the number of type 1 players dies down, or do we make power accessable to everyone so that there will be an influx of new players and more competition.  With out new players and a growing following magic will die. 

This sounds like a nike commercial but what's more important, the game, or the value of your cards?  cuz without a following or interest in the game, the value of those cards are gonna go to shit anyway.

my 2.3 cents worth

[crazedpenguinman]

I voted for 10 proxies, allowing 10 gives a much greater flexibility than five, but also forces the person entering type 1 to shell out some monies, frankly, if they aren't willing to pay $300 or whatever to play with 10 fake cards in ther deck, than they aren't really going to contribute alot to the format.

[Dante]

how about a wacky idea...

REPRINT THEM!!!

.....

I guess the question comes to this, do the elitists who own power cards want to continue their monopoly of power as the number of type 1 players dies down, or do we make power accessable to everyone so that there will be an influx of new players and more competition.  With out new players and a growing following magic will die. 

Dude, those of us who own power have NO control over Wotc reprinting anything.  Most of us probably wouldn't mind them reprinting them (at least I wouldn't).  Then I wouldn't have to deal with illegible proxies scribbled on basic lands...