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Author Topic: [Premium Article] The Case for Thirst for Knowledge in Vintage Gifts  (Read 15432 times)
TheBrassMan
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« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2005, 08:08:30 pm »

Perhaps I haven't been following closely enough, but why the evolution from Welders/maindeck Mana Severance, to Burning Wish/maindeck Pithing Needle and Engineered Explosives. Also, it seems to me that the build just can't answer a Chalice for 0 (though I might be overlooking something?). Could you (or anyone else) address these issues for me? Thanks!

I would guess that Needle and Explosives are a meta call as well as a way to get around Chalice for 0. Mana Vault, Sol Ring, 2 Needles, and 2 Explosives give you alot of options at 1 casting cost+ to fuel a Tinker if your opponent casts Chalice for 0 on the play. Burning Wish is simply a tutor for answers and Severance, but I bet opponents have scooped to a resolved Burning Wish thinking there is a Tendrils in the side. You could definitely use that tactic in a pinch, setting up a psuedo ToA kill.

Actually, the welders were out of my deck before the first articles on Meandeck Gifts were posted, but I didn't really advertise, so I can't exactly complain.  They went for mostly the same reason Meandeck cut them.  They're amazing cards, but they can't do anything "right now," and if you don't see your buisness artifacts, they're less than stellar, nevermind seeing your buisness artifacts and being unable to cast them.  That said, bringing the welders back would help the match against stax significantly, but slightly worsen the match against Gifts and Slaver.

Methuselahn is mostly right, but it's also worth mentioning that if you play Engineered Explosives with colorless mana, like from Library/Sol Ring/Mana Crypt/Mana Drain, it comes down through chalice with 0 counters.  Also, killing with Belcher is really not that difficult with chalice 0 out, chalice kills your Will, but you can still go off the hard way.

I've never actually tried to bluff Tendrils with Wish, but maybe I'll have to now Very Happy
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« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2005, 07:50:57 pm »

Wow I've been testing this deck a lot against other top decks (ie Stax, etc), and I'm continuously surprised by the sheer amount of options I have when I play out the deck.  Any advice, Brassman, on plays to watch out for or plays to make with the deck?  The part that is generally hardest for me is what spells to Mana Drain vs. Force of Will.  I guess learning what to do at what times will come with more practice?  Thanks for any advice!
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« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2005, 08:43:56 am »

I  played in a 364 players' tourney this week.
I'll write a lot of things about it, but not now and not in this thread.
So you would have to wait a bit for them.

On the other hand, I would say to you that I played a list similar to the one played by Andy and it performed really well against all the opponents.
Initially, I went 4-0 playing against UR-Control ( with maindeck BtB, Rods and Wastelands ), FCG, Ur-C-Slavery similar to Goth-Slaver but without black and against T1Tog.
I lost my first match against the player that in the end went 2nd and that was playing another gifts.dec. I lost a game against a MUD.Monobrown.Stacker.dec too and I was soon out of the competition.
I won the last two games against other Stacker.decs.

The match lost against Gifts involved me mulliganining twice in two games while we both played at our best. His deck simply performed really well and stacked better cards rather than mine. I Duressed and Countered a lot of things out of his hand, but I draw all the clunky cards ( Recoup, Y Will, Burning and Counters ) while he drew into Gifts and Brainstorms all the games long.
The game lost against Stacker involved me siding in 3 Sacred Grounds ( really nice techs, Andy!!! ) and 3 Artifact's removals, but drawing only into one of them, without being able to recover from his locking components.

After this tourney, I can say that I would change only a few things of this deck, but I fear that maindecking Needles is not so strong and universal to guarantee their usage.

I'm going to re-try again 2 Cunning Wishes in those spots, in order to see if they are going to fulfill my needs better than them.
Anyone who played with them maindeck stated that they are too narrow and hypercosted to guarantee their large usage, but I feel that they could rise the synergies between maindeck and sideboard better than any other things.

I would probably drop down to 2 the Sacred Grounds or I would cut them all to find and save some more sidboard's space. I would agree with a lot of my teammates that Needles and Sacred Grounds have a different impact on the game but Needles can save me from mana denial in a decent way as well.

I would probably play this Sideboard in my next tourney.

1 Duress
1 Deep Analysis
1 ToA
1 Pyroclasm
1 Balance

1 ReB
1 Pyro
1 R&R
1 Rushing River
1 H Recall

1 Sundering Titan
2 Needles
2 Sacred Ground

I would play with a Rebuild main and another Bouncer/Solution maindeck and a mix of Merchant and Duress and Drawers but without Mis_Ds.





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« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2005, 05:57:50 pm »

Just a quick question for Andy...  I notice in the Richmond reports that you sideboard out Mana Severance in several matches... this implies however, that you have moved it to maindeck from the SB.  What did you take out?

Also, are you still splashing white for Sacred Ground in the SB?

Thanks!
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« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2005, 01:02:07 am »

An interesting note to make on this issue is that (as I am told) half of the Gifts decks at Richmond ran Thirst, and half did not.  The half that did all reached Top 4, and the other half did not reach Top 8.  While true that Richmond is a small sample to look at, it does add weight to Andy's assertion that Thirst's inclusion is optimal.
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« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2005, 08:59:24 am »

An interesting note to make on this issue is that (as I am told) half of the Gifts decks at Richmond ran Thirst, and half did not.  The half that did all reached Top 4, and the other half did not reach Top 8.  While true that Richmond is a small sample to look at, it does add weight to Andy's assertion that Thirst's inclusion is optimal.
Sorry for disagreeing, but I cannot see a big pattern there...I must also say I didn't test the thirst version, but I can say I did the Steve's one...the thing is I went on creating a BBS with gifts instead of facts, and some changes afcourse...I threw in some thirsts and after testing (goldfishing more or less) I found out that, as long as it was good, it was pretty "crappy"...i switched for impulses and liked it much more...1 mana less and you see one more card. Thing is : I don't like discarding moxen (and having artifact like needle is pretty bad if your plan is to discard it with thirst most of the time). To continue the story, I went with different kills in gifts blue. Like 3 morphling, 1 masticore (welder thingy die, die), collosus ... but still I wasn't happy, cause of kill was really bad, but gifting was nice : 4 counters, or some combination with recall, walking, bounce or something...only the problem was can the deck survive until gifting and kill before other deck wins. So I just picked the MG version and it was going really well. The thing is in that Gifts are FAR more powerfull then thirsts (having less then 4 gifts is wacky, and having it for the kill only makes it like you don't fully abuse it)...maybe partly cause I realized how nice is to gifts for counters. So like gifts for drain/force/walk/merchant(recall or something) was like awsome. Going with thirst makes the deck slower, maybe a little consinstenly(maybe that's the trick, consinstency), but I'm shure saying it ain't more powerfull. I'm not saying it's less powerfull too, so don't jump on me emediately. In the end of the story 4 gifts/4 merchant (or similar) for me is > then 2gifts(very bad)/2merchants(that's more personal I would say/4 thirst (good in limited point of view).

Still this is a great deck (gifts deck with 2 gifts...) and I congratulate it for making it work and making top 8 as Klep said
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« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2005, 10:01:44 am »

An interesting note to make on this issue is that (as I am told) half of the Gifts decks at Richmond ran Thirst, and half did not.  The half that did all reached Top 4, and the other half did not reach Top 8.  While true that Richmond is a small sample to look at, it does add weight to Andy's assertion that Thirst's inclusion is optimal.
Sorry for disagreeing, but I cannot see a big pattern there...I must also say I didn't test the thirst version, but I can say I did the Steve's one...the thing is I went on creating a BBS with gifts instead of facts, and some changes afcourse...I threw in some thirsts and after testing (goldfishing more or less) I found out that, as long as it was good, it was pretty "crappy"...i switched for impulses and liked it much more...1 mana less and you see one more card. Thing is : I don't like discarding moxen (and having artifact like needle is pretty bad if your plan is to discard it with thirst most of the time). To continue the story, I went with different kills in gifts blue. Like 3 morphling, 1 masticore (welder thingy die, die), collosus ... but still I wasn't happy, cause of kill was really bad, but gifting was nice : 4 counters, or some combination with recall, walking, bounce or something...only the problem was can the deck survive until gifting and kill before other deck wins. So I just picked the MG version and it was going really well. The thing is in that Gifts are FAR more powerfull then thirsts (having less then 4 gifts is wacky, and having it for the kill only makes it like you don't fully abuse it)...maybe partly cause I realized how nice is to gifts for counters. So like gifts for drain/force/walk/merchant(recall or something) was like awsome. Going with thirst makes the deck slower, maybe a little consinstenly(maybe that's the trick, consinstency), but I'm shure saying it ain't more powerfull. I'm not saying it's less powerfull too, so don't jump on me emediately. In the end of the story 4 gifts/4 merchant (or similar) for me is > then 2gifts(very bad)/2merchants(that's more personal I would say/4 thirst (good in limited point of view).

Still this is a great deck (gifts deck with 2 gifts...) and I congratulate it for making it work and making top 8 as Klep said
Gifts decks with TFK fared better because the deck was designed AFTER MeanDeck Gifts. MeanDeck Gifts was unleashed around the same time stax started becoming popular (incidentally, uba stax came out about the same time as well). As a result of the good showing MeanDeck gave, people started adapting more to it, packing more gorilla shaman than usual (amongst other things -- COTV is worthy of mention as well). Also, it resulted in more people picking up the various stax decks, since they have a very good match against gifts decks.

In other words, MeanDeck gifts was not designed with stax in mind. As such, it gets 'badly' raped by it. TFK gifts, taking Probasco's list as a reference (the one that was released a while ago in an article), takes stax into a consideration by playing cards such as 2x pithing needle maindeck, as well as engineered explosives (which, at worst, serves as smokestack fodder). Also, and this is the most crucial part, it relies more on TFK rather than gifts, because TFK costs less mana.

TFK gifts fared better simply because most of the field was stax. It has no relationship with whether or not you believe the gifts version with 4x gifts are strictly better than TFK gifts, it only has to do with the fact that 4x gifts decks are more hateables.
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« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2005, 04:34:40 pm »

In other words, MeanDeck gifts was not designed with stax in mind. As such, it gets 'badly' raped by it. are more hateables.

This is just plain not true.  Stax is your worst matchup, but its still around 50/50 game 1 and GIfts has the edge in sideboarded games.

The reason that brassgifts has more success than gifts.sm is quite simply because the vast majority of players dont have the skill to pilot gifts.sm.  The deck is built practically entirely on tutors so it is much more decision intensive than any other Drain deck in the format.  Because of this it rewards good play more than other decks, but at the same time it will punish mistakes in a most brutal and unmerciful fashion.  Cutting down on the number of Gifts and running TFK reduces the number of decisions that the player has to make and lowers the difficulty level of the deck.  As someone whos played a ton of games with gifts.sm and a deck extremely close to brassys Im pretty confident that this is the primary reason for the disparity in results put up by the two builds.
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« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2005, 05:25:32 pm »

In other words, MeanDeck gifts was not designed with stax in mind. As such, it gets 'badly' raped by it. are more hateables.

This is just plain not true.  Stax is your worst matchup, but its still around 50/50 game 1 and GIfts has the edge in sideboarded games.

The reason that brassgifts has more success than gifts.sm is quite simply because the vast majority of players dont have the skill to pilot gifts.sm.  The deck is built practically entirely on tutors so it is much more decision intensive than any other Drain deck in the format.  Because of this it rewards good play more than other decks, but at the same time it will punish mistakes in a most brutal and unmerciful fashion.  Cutting down on the number of Gifts and running TFK reduces the number of decisions that the player has to make and lowers the difficulty level of the deck.  As someone whos played a ton of games with gifts.sm and a deck extremely close to brassys Im pretty confident that this is the primary reason for the disparity in results put up by the two builds.
In other words, while trying to compare why TFK gifts fared better than MD gifts, you conclude that MD gifts didn't fare as well simply because MD gifts is that much harder to play. But what you failed to address is the difference between the win/loss ratio of TFK gifts vs stax and compare that to win/loss ratio of MD gifts to stax. The real discussion lies there. I believe TFK gifts fares better against stax than MD gifts (for the reasons I have listed), it is up to you to refute that argument.

You can make a point and say that MD gifts could certainly have made it to TFK gifts' players top-8 results should the players be good enough to wield it, but then again, the conversation becomes barely more than a fight over some very minor win/loss percentage difference. Then that very percentage can get trumped extremely badly by external results, such as bad pairings, luck and/or stax just beginning the match. (ignoring here all the other matchups, where we both assume they are all in favor of gifts decks).
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« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2005, 06:50:02 pm »

Quote Gifts decks with TFK fared better because the deck was designed AFTER MeanDeck Gifts.

Thats not true at all I'm not sure if Brassman has been working on this as long but this was designed Last Waterbury (A year Ago) by Brassman as an Answer to the CS mirror.  Rich Shay Made top8 with it at that waterbury.  It ran 2 welders and only changed about 8-10 cards from our CS list back then.  I was testing with him back then all night before Day 1 and we did the CS vs this match up.  I'm pretty sure thats where Brassman got the deck.  Cause it looks like the same from before with some changes for the new meta.  could you give us your word Brass.
Heres Link to that Waterburys Top 8   http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=23004.0   Rich Shay used Brassmans list.
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« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2005, 02:31:43 am »

Andy came up with SSB long before the article on Meandeck Gifts was published on SCG; I distinctly remember wanting to take it to a type 1 tournament in mid-June and talking to Brassy about his deck. Steve's article wasn't published until 6/28.
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« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2005, 07:21:45 am »

I already knew that, fact is, most decks are based off the same common base of cards (ex: brainstorm/drain/fow/etc.) and very often are taken off from an existing deck with some 'minor' tweaking. I mistakenly said the deck was created after, but what I meant was that the -last revision- of the deck was done with stax in mind.

Regardless whether or not that was the case, or whether or not the deck is very similar to what Shay played a year ago (and thus proving the deck wasn't made with stax in mind), my question still hasn't been addressed by any of you. The conversation is about the win/loss ratio of TFK gifts vs stax in comparison to MD gifts vs stax. I can understand that you want to discredit my argument by shooting the weakest part of my argumentation (common practice in politics), but you still haven't addressed the main issue.
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« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2005, 09:01:59 am »

I already knew that, fact is, most decks are based off the same common base of cards (ex: brainstorm/drain/fow/etc.) and very often are taken off from an existing deck with some 'minor' tweaking. I mistakenly said the deck was created after, but what I meant was that the -last revision- of the deck was done with stax in mind.

Regardless whether or not that was the case, or whether or not the deck is very similar to what Shay played a year ago (and thus proving the deck wasn't made with stax in mind), my question still hasn't been addressed by any of you. The conversation is about the win/loss ratio of TFK gifts vs stax in comparison to MD gifts vs stax. I can understand that you want to discredit my argument by shooting the weakest part of my argumentation (common practice in politics), but you still haven't addressed the main issue.

It's not just that a TFK Gifts deck made it.  It's not just that MD Gifts didn't make it. It's is that 100% of the TFK Gifts decks made top 4 and that 100% of MD Gifts didn't make top 8. 

I can say that Deathlong didn't make top 8 because it was too complicated for people to play optimally, and that is the only reason it didn't make it too, but that doesn't mean it's true.  This isn't something like "X version of Stax is better than Y version."  Numerous types stax decks have made top 8 in the past few large tournaments.  This is not the case with the different Gifts decks.  As far as I know, there was 0 MD Gifts in the GenCon $500, qualifier, or Championships.  Now there is 0 in Richmond.  It's 0-4 in the past 4 tournaments.

That's not to say te deck isn't good, or won't make a comeback.  Oath and Dragon each went through long dry spells without doing well.  If the meta shifts away from Stax, then maybe MD Gifts would be "the best gifts deck" again-that still may be the case in NE.
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« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2005, 09:21:33 am »

I know for a fact that GGs Gifts wins more events in New England than MD Gifts Very Happy

As for the list that Shay played at the last waterbury, I gave it to him.  Welders were gone from the list before the Meandeck article was posted, I had a conversation with Steve at the last Richmond, where we were simultaniously working on our gifts list.  We developed them around the same time, but I didn't write any articles.  The european lists had been around forever, but US Meandeck wasn't treating Gifts as a real archetype until I played SSB at Syracuse.

On the MD Gifts v GGs Gifts against Stax/the field?  All I can tell you is that I've had better results against every archetype with Thirsts.  The casting cost is extremely relevant against combo, the resiliance to hate makes it clutch against aggro decks, and the ability to net 3 cards, rather than 2, and not give away information is huge against control.

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« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2005, 12:36:26 pm »

Just a quick question for Andy...  I notice in the Richmond reports that you sideboard out Mana Severance in several matches... this implies however, that you have moved it to maindeck from the SB.  What did you take out?

Also, are you still splashing white for Sacred Ground in the SB?

Thanks!

I find this to be a good question, I was wondering this myself.
Do you, brassman, find it difficult to have to Wish for the Severance in order to pull off the Belcher win? Or are you using Belcher anyway even without a resolved Severance to ping away welders/ life totals?

I like this question because I think it's quite difficult to have to wish for the Severance to pull it off, although I think it can be bad main like in older SSB builds where it sat in my hand like crappola for quite a few games.

What do you say about that?

Also, did you still run white at Richmond? I know it's known for workshops, so I was assuming you did so again.
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« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2005, 12:55:46 pm »

My guess is brassman dropped the two duress for the mana severance and maybe a bounce spell (echoing truth?)

Duress is normally sbed out in workshop and fcg matches and seeing that he did not sb it against fcg , I would guess that its gone. And white most likely gone too as he did not sb in scared ground for the workshop matches. just analysing what he sbed in you can account for all 15 sb cards if i am not wrong.

3 annul
1 deep analysis
2 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
2 pyroclasm
2 engineered plague
2 rack and ruin
1 pithing needle
1 echoing ruin
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« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2005, 01:47:11 pm »

My guess is brassman dropped the two duress for the mana severance and maybe a bounce spell (echoing truth?)

Duress is normally sbed out in workshop and fcg matches and seeing that he did not sb it against fcg , I would guess that its gone. And white most likely gone too as he did not sb in scared ground for the workshop matches. just analysing what he sbed in you can account for all 15 sb cards if i am not wrong.

3 annul
1 deep analysis
2 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
2 pyroclasm
2 engineered plague
2 rack and ruin
1 pithing needle
1 echoing ruin


I know Pinchot had a MD Gorilla Shaman in his list. This sounds like an awesome call. Anyone try it?

EDIT: I forgot to also mention that Pinchot's list ran Cunning Wishes main too.
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« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2005, 01:50:15 pm »

It's not just that a TFK Gifts deck made it.  It's not just that MD Gifts didn't make it. It's is that 100% of the TFK Gifts decks made top 4 and that 100% of MD Gifts didn't make top 8. 


I played Brassman's exact list from GenCon and only went 3-3. So not ALL of the TFK-Gifts made Top 8. Sorry to throw off the bell curve.
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« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2005, 04:28:07 pm »

Well the GGs team had a teched out sb, I went to finals and Brassy got 3rd.  We proved that Thirst builds rocks socks.  We did run severence and an extra island in place of 2 duress also.
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« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2005, 06:36:40 pm »

It's not just that a TFK Gifts deck made it.  It's not just that MD Gifts didn't make it. It's is that 100% of the TFK Gifts decks made top 4 and that 100% of MD Gifts didn't make top 8. 


I played Brassman's exact list from GenCon and only went 3-3. So not ALL of the TFK-Gifts made Top 8. Sorry to throw off the bell curve.

Oops, I went from information that there were 6 Gifts decks and 3 of them had Thirsts.  That info was obviously wrong.
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« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2005, 12:00:51 am »

I apologize for imparting incorrect information then.  It is what I was told.
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« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2005, 05:08:15 pm »

For the record there was only 1 (heavily sucktified) gifts.sm deck in the field, and it finished in 55th place.

That's not to say te deck isn't good, or won't make a comeback.

October 29th.  Mark it down.

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« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2005, 07:11:09 pm »

Has anyone tried maindecking Gorilla Shamans in this build besides the players from Richmond? Mox monkey just owns in this deck, especially when you play game 1 of the mirror. I took out the maindecked Engineered Explosives for him and I don't think I would ever take him out. Just like in my Slaver list he has proven himself in almost all games I have played.

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« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2005, 04:34:39 am »

@Disturben

If you are happy with the Gorilla's addition, think about playing with him coupled with CoW+Strip, too.
Mirror's breakers anyone?
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@Brassman

I would like to hear something from you about:

+3 Cunning Wishes
-3 Something ( especially Winner#2, Burning Wish and another random card )

You would win with Brainfreeze instead of Belcher or ToA or anything else.
you would have access to all the instants spells and Vampiric Tutor in your side for things like Gorilla, CoW, Tinker, Y Will or anything else.

I tested it and if you have a field FULL of C-Slavery, TPS, Atogs, Gifts and anything simply AggroControl the plan is HUGE.
It give you some sort of flessibility against Stax decks too.
Really good choices.
If you are interested I can edit this post with the list I'm testing now.



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« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2005, 05:30:28 am »


That's not to say te deck isn't good, or won't make a comeback.

October 29th.  Mark it down.


My hero  Smile the deck is harder to pilot, that is true...Godot said there was 1 gifts.sm, and it didn't do top 8...interesting enough to say it's bad in the meta...godot said october 29th, well I'm allready afraid, aren't you ?
I don't know why thirst build is so much superior...let's make it this way :
Gifts Ungiven 3U : Net 2 gosu cards (counters, or bombs)...not snow covered lands, it's just stupid...so let's remember-2 cards you need and that can break the game state
Thirst for Knowledge 2U : Draw 3 Cards (first part makes notation on seeing 3 cards of the top), then discard an artifact or 2 cards (discarding artifacts is not so good in my point of view, especially if the deck has all the good artifact acceleration. Maybe cause it needs to play it, not  discard it, who knows...discarding 2 cards, well ain't that something). So you net random top 3 cards, and discard either needed mox, or 2 cards for 3 mana...Brainstom for U is kinda similar to this...when you have 4x Scroll's you have more brainstorm acces too. In the end of this Thirst part : it net's you a total of MAX 2 cards, not 3...random max 2 cards...
Impulse 1U : here for the word about mana costs...impulse is good, mana light and serve the purpose to look 4 cards of the top (3 in thirst case). You take the 4 cards, and take one...it's a mini tutor, and does not get you card advantage over thirst, but still I would like to see 1 more card and get it, instead seeing one less and discarding needed cards-cause brainstorm fix your hand nicely, so actually you will discard something important...

I'm packing for the trip, so this is just to say MG is not a bad deck that roll's over to stax (what makes this deck stomp on stax, pithing needle MD ?), and to say again Gifts > Thirst, and if mana is an important problem, go with impulses...
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Dozer
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« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2005, 08:31:09 am »

Quote
If you are happy with the Gorilla's addition, think about playing with him coupled with CoW+Strip, too.
Mirror's breakers anyone?
Same here. Strip + Crucible makes Gifts stronger and is supported by TfK, too. I have not switched to Gorilla Shaman yet, and I didn't much like Engineered Explosives (although with Suppression Field in the environment Explosives might gain worth again). I prefer Goblin Welder over Gorilla Shaman, since Welder is very strong, allows you to do Lotus tricks to gain mana and messes with both Stax and CS better than Shaman can. It is less destructive and more tricky, but it definitely works well. Plus, when you drop Welder and play TfK, most people mistake your deck for Control Slaver and make play mistakes accordingly.

I'll be playing with my new, Brassman-inspired Gifts deck in the Dutch champs on October 30th. Expect a report when the tournament is over.

Dozer
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« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2005, 01:48:27 pm »

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If you are happy with the Gorilla's addition, think about playing with him coupled with CoW+Strip, too.
Mirror's breakers anyone?
Same here. Strip + Crucible makes Gifts stronger and is supported by TfK, too. I have not switched to Gorilla Shaman yet, and I didn't much like Engineered Explosives (although with Suppression Field in the environment Explosives might gain worth again).


I'm a little confused by what you mean when you say this. I apologize beforehand if I make some huge mistake in understanding what you say and makesomeone explain even though your point was valid.

The problem I have with understanding this is that Explosives effect is an activated ability. it costs two to use to activate to begin with. why would Explosives make a comeback if it's still greatly affected by Field stacks?
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« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2005, 02:47:23 pm »

Correct me if I'm worng, but it seems he's talking about running Explosvies over Welder or Shamen. Explosives takes 4 mana to kill a Suppression Field, but Welder and Shamen can't do anything about it with any amount of mana.
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« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2005, 03:15:35 am »

I don't want to steal space on the Andy's discussion with pointeless things regarding "similar" decks.
I would talk about "control-control-control-gifts" in a dedicated thread Smile



@Suppression Field.

I think that anyone playing a lot of Fetchlands should fear this "thing".
Think about playing against a 5c-stakx with that hate maindecked.
Spheres+Suppression field+CoW = no way to play anything or protect your mana base from being crushed down.
Hard time for control decks again...

I appreciated the foresighting comment of Dozer.
Predicting a possible use of that enchantment ( and DOZEN of other Ravnica's cards... ) I suspect that bouncers or E.E.s are needed in any control decks without Cunning Wishes.

In this build, E.E. is just plain better than bouncers because of the presence of TFKs.
Bouncers are still good because they are Blue.



@About Control-Gifts

I suspect that a natural evolution of a "non-combo" based Gifts-dec should be maindecking Cunning Wishes and killing with brainfreeze ( aside with DSC )
They gave you a good flexibility and a good way to circumvent hate.
In a "goodly-accelerated" build ( 24-25 mana fonts with 9-10 accelerations ), I fear that they cannot be considered "slow" and their addition is worth a try.

In simple words.
Take out 1 Burning and two random cards ( bouncers, additional counters or solutions ) and add 3 Cunning Wishes.
Even Jester's Caps cannot kill you with a single shot... Wink








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« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2005, 03:24:58 am »

Necrologia is correct. If/ when Suppression Field makes its impact, enchantment kill will become relevant. The only viable enchantment kill that Blue, Black and Red have available (apart from bounce as temporary removal) is Engineered Explosives. The additional activation cost for EE under a Field is not nearly as bad as not being able to do anything about the Field at all. We will have to wait how strong and widespread Suppression Field really will be, but a Null-Rod-Suppression-Field disruption package is tough opposition for a deck like Gifts that relies on a Fetchland + accelerants mana-base (and even tougher for CS).

I think it is important to have a solution for Suppression Field especially when you include Crucible + Strip, since that is a virtual, back-up win condition and is severely hampered by a Field. If you have a Tendrils-based alternate kill, Suppression Field might not affect you as much, but an alternate kill that is based on an activated ability (like Charbelcher and Strip) necessitates some way of dealing with the Field. I'm not splashing White or Green for proper enchantment kill yet, so Explosives it is (or would be in place of Welder or Shaman).

Another way out is the Cunning Wish that Matt promoted above, by the way. With Cunning Wish, you can grab the bounce you need just before you win, although that doesn't help much against suppressed Fetchlands. You'll have to bite the bullet and just pay for the fetch ability.

Quote
I suspect that a natural evolution of a "non-combo" based Gifts-dec should be maindecking Cunning Wishes and killing with brainfreeze

I don't see a "non-combo" Gifts build evolving as much as I think the combo-base will diversify (like utilizing Brain Freeze, for example). I believe the alternate win conditions beside DSC will change in the next weeks, mostly due to Ravnica and the desire to pre-emptively address the possible hate. Personally, I'm taking the deck to a more traditional combo level, not relying on Storm as much as on actual card combinations. I also see a hybrid with Oath as a possibility, although the attempts I tried so far didn't work out as well as others.

As an aside, I find the storm requirement on Brain Freeze quite taxing, more than the black mana on Tendrils. How is your experience? Do you fizzle more often than with Tendrils, and how much setup energy goes into a Brain Freeze kill?

Dozer
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