More Vintage Tech with Randy Buehler: Meandeck GiftsOath

[doylehancock]

I figured a post should start on this article.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10640.html

I am a huge fan of meandeck gifts.  I have won countless tourneys with the deck (though the largest prize was 4 seas).

I like the idea of the deck though I am terrified of the mana base

thoughts?

[Disburden]

I was playtesting this deck earlier today and I'm really liking it.

I was looking at the mana base like I would in Dragon, where if you're playing the "beatdown" to such a forceful extent you can just win before the mana base is an issue. More so than with MD gifts especially this is true, to me, since you have four oaths as like mentioned in the interview are tinkers 2-5.
 This was especially true to me when I played post board with Sacred ground. I got it out in every game 2 and I won because of it. Very much like 5c Dragon wins with Sacred Ground being so good game 2.

I have hardly had to play control when playing around with the deck today. It just plays the beatdown role too well. The Tendrils/ Oath combo is the nuts, especially with Regrowth adding to the list of cards making it availible if you need Yawgmoth's Will from the yard.

[Methuselahn]

That deck is very similar to the deck Eli Kassis took ran and won power with at previous SCG events and also, similar to the list I ran at Waterbury 7 - Day 1 upon which I lost to Eli himself.  The Meandeck list looks pretty good. One of the major differences is that this version still gets choked by Chalice for 2.  Chalice for 2 still cuts off Sacred Ground from resolving and the manabase can't handle Rack and Ruin because you usually don't have enough manas to cast it as you are so susceptable to wasteland and co., having so many colors.  The list that I chose to run included Chain of Vapor, a Rebuild and an Auriok Salvagers for the incredibly awesome Salvagers-Lotus-Recoup-Burning Wish-Tendrils win, which is usually faster and more resilient, plus you laugh at chalice for 1.

There's so much overlapping synergy in this hybrid, it's absurd.  Meandeck might have done their homework on this deck, but for crying out loud, let's not label it with the 'Meandeck (deck description here)' moniker until at least someone from Meandeck actually plays and wins with it?  Let's call it Kassis-Oath-Gifts or Buehler-Oath-Gifts at least. Jeez.

[Komatteru]

Meandeck might have done their homework on this deck, but for crying out loud, let's not label it with the 'Meandeck (deck description here)' moniker until at least someone from Meandeck actually plays and wins with it?  Let's call it Kassis-Oath-Gifts or Buehler-Oath-Gifts at least. Jeez.

Yeah, because we were given a chance to do that.  Toad cooked up the original concept for the deck a few weeks ago and we've been working on since that time.  Some members considered the deck for Richmond, but we deemed the deck as not quite ready at that point, so we continued to work on it a bit more to polish up some rough edges.  Randy read the thread concerning the deck and decided it looked interesting enough, and gave it a whirl at a local event.  Why is this deck deserve the title "Meandeck Gifts Oath"?  Because we fucking made it.  Randy Buehler did not make the deck.  He just played it and contributed only the the move of Krosan Reclamation from the sideboard (where Toad had it) to the maindeck.  Last time I checked, decks got named by the people who made the decks, not those who played it.  When's the last time Finkel had his name on a deck? He sure won a hell of a lot, but not one deck he played ever got christened with his name because he played it.

[Jacob Orlove]

Eli was only playing 2 gifts and later said that he'd have cut them altogether for a more GWS style approach--he was playing Oath with Gifts in it, rather than Gifts with Oath in it.

Gifts Oath, as Randy said in the article, was the brainchild of Matthieu Durand, aka Toad. As such, it is a Meandeck creation. We probably would have unveiled our build at Chicago, but, like Doomsday, the cat is already out of the bag here.

[Hi-Val]

Just FYI: this was not released with the permission of the team. We didn't know that Randy would be shipping our list to SCG.

This means that you are on your own for any help on the deck and that the team won't be contributing to the discussion on the mechanics of the deck. Any information that we would provide will be in Matthieu's article, should he still write it.

[Dozer]

I'll shamelessly promote myself and say that I predicted this:

I also see a hybrid with Oath as a possibility, although the attempts I tried so far didn't work out as well as others.

Well done Meandeck for getting the build to work. I lost interest in it because both the mana base and the numbers of Oath and Gifts gave me too much trouble to bother while I was working on my current build (non-Oath). So, congratulations. As for the debate if this is a Meandeck creation, Randy explicitly mentions that he got it from the Meandeck forums in the article. So the point is moot, the deck is Meandeck.

Dozer

[Disburden]

Just FYI: this was not released with the permission of the team. We didn't know that Randy would be shipping our list to SCG.

This means that you are on your own for any help on the deck and that the team won't be contributing to the discussion on the mechanics of the deck. Any information that we would provide will be in Matthieu's article, should he still write it.

I was wondering if this is what happened when I read the article, since the deck seemed to have came out of thin air over night on SCG. I still hope Matthieu writes the article, it would be a shame not to, but I would be sincerely upset myself for the deck being leaked out by someone that was trusted to read team forums.

If it makes any difference though, the deck is amazing and it is another Meandeck masterpiece.

[Revvik]

There's no argument present as to who should take the credit for this thing. 
That said, I'd still like to read what Toad has to say on the subject - leaked or not, it still looks pretty impressive, and I'm always glad to kill my time at work reading Magic articles.

Just FYI: this was not released with the permission of the team. We didn't know that Randy would be shipping our list to SCG.

I hope no ill feelings are harbored here!  :shock:

[sampling_percus]

I hope no ill feelings are harbored here!  :shock:

i guess thats the price you pay for having the head of magic r&d on your team

[Jacob Orlove]

I hope no ill feelings are harbored here!  :shock:

i guess thats the price you pay for having the head of magic r&d on your team

He was on our boards, not on our team. Unfortunately, that's a crucial distinction.

[Smmenen]

Although he's not on our team (because he works for Wizards), he was playing under our banner. 

I, for one, would rather that the deck remained secret, but c'est le vie. 

It was a good interview. I would have liked to hear more about his matches though.  Randy gives very detailed reports and it is interesting to see what good plays he made. 

[TheBrassMan]

I'll be honest, I felt a little uncomfortable taking the assignment, before I even interviewed him, I knew that the list was secret, and I know I wouldn't be thrilled if that situation happened to me.  That said, Ted asked me to do the piece, and it's public knowledge that steve is staying away from type one right now (that is, someone had to write it).  Meandeck still has an opportunity to write a conclusive piece on it, I don't even know if what Randy posted was close to a finished list or not. 

Randy says it crystal clear in the article, but for the record, the decklist given is totally meandeck's work (with the exception of Krosan Reclamation, which is questionable anyway), and if for no other reason than accuracy, should be attributed as such.  There have been plenty of Oath/Gifts hybrids out there, I've built and tested some myself, but the particular plan of "Colossus to the nuts, Meandeck Gifts engine" is unique among commonly discussed/previously winning builds.

If I overstepped my bounds here, I apologize.

[Methuselahn]

Why is this deck deserve the title "Meandeck Gifts Oath"?  Because we fucking made it.  Randy Buehler did not make the deck.  He just played it and contributed only the the move of Krosan Reclamation from the sideboard (where Toad had it) to the maindeck.

Very well, I was under the impression that you had to win with a deck yourself and not Wizards Jedi Master Randy Bueler in order to stick your team name on it.  Perhaps, I have been misunderstanding the criteria for deck naming. 

Finkel's name wouldn't be on any deck names anyway because he doesn't play Vintage.  I never understood why that information is so pertinent to Vintage.

At any rate, there are no 'ill feelings harbored,' it's just Magic.

Eli was only playing 2 gifts and later said that he'd have cut them altogether for a more GWS style approach--he was playing Oath with Gifts in it, rather than Gifts with Oath in it.

This really confuses me, for a couple of reasons.  First, I'm not sure what you are trying to argue by saying what he *would* have played over what he *actually* played considering what he *actually* played paid off for him and that is the only relevant data. Second, and more importantly, playing the GWS deck and choosing that approach is vastly different than playing any form of Meandeck Gifts-Oath or the deck Eli had played.   In my conversation with Eli at Waterbury, he indicated that he ran the Meandeck Gifts engine with Recoup and company alongside Oath-Colossus.  Both Meandeck's and Eli's deck are similar in that adding Gifts, Recoup, and that gameplan is more than just an Oath deck using Gifts to make the Oath engine work. 

In testing, I've found that you switch roles depending on the match up, most of the time making it an Oath and Gifts deck.  For example, against stax, you want to power out an Oath to beat them, and not wait around to see if you ever get 4 mana to cast Gifts. Beats and Goblins are obviously the same thing, play Oath.  UW fish is a bit more tricky however.  Versus decks like new Grim Tutor Long, TPS, or 2 land Belcher, you save your mana and play the control deck until you dominate board/hand position and then just win safely because you are easily the slower clock.  If you try to race them and offer no disruption, you will likely lose. 

One of the best bonus reasons to play Oaths Gifts is that sometimes your opponents have no idea what you are doing and what you are playing.  Often you can just go broken without Oath game 1 and then throw your opponent for a loop game 2 when you drop it, Oath out your graveyard, recoup, and go off. (Insert Eli reference using this switch-a-roo tactic again with Rector-Oath).  The deck is great like that, especially in larger tournaments.  I'd love to hear Meandeck testing results, especially what they do versus an opponent's resolved turn 1 welder as Oath becomes significantly weaker, but I guess I'll have to wait three months after Toad writes the article to see what that is.

[rakso]

I never liked MisD in the build, and am very interested in this variant because contrary to what Steve keeps saying, Fish and other aggro-control is a pain on a bad draw.

Any ideas on streamlining the given mana base further? I thought Meandeck didn't like Duress.

[Methuselahn]

Randy mentioned that he wasn't expecting alot of Stax or Workshops in general, therefore Duress is spectacular.

[xrizzo]

I thought Meandeck didn't like Duress.

They didn't.  They also didn't like Krosan Reclamation.  They also didn't like Yawgmoth's Will.  (all in Oath)

Although, this is a far cry from traditional Blue / Black / green Oath, I am glad to see multiple key components from our build incorporated here.  This looks to be a solid deck -- but I already see a lot of room for improvement.

Perhaps when selected community members stop 'breaking' legacy, we will be graced with Meandeck's commentary.

[rbuehler]

I wouldn't have leaked the deck if anyone had told me not to. After I won the tourney I e-mailed Steve, offering to do an interview where I gave Team Meandeck mad props for an awesome deck. I knew the team would like the publicity, but I honestly wasn't sure if they'd want the decklist outed. Steven offered to do the interview himself, but since he's on hiatus from Type 1 articles Ted wound up asking Andy to do it instead before Steven and I worked out an article. I told Smemmen I was doing the interview and at no point did he say anything resembling "We'd rather keep the deck quiet." Heh ... it seems like I'm getting all sides of the internet team experience.

Randy

[rakso]

As Steve said, c'est la vie. (I have nothing to do with xrizzo's comments.)

Randy, any other insights? I'm particularly interested in the mana base. Also, how do you figure the Stax matchup changes, which you weren't able to "test" in that tourney?

[Phele]

It like to add, that adding white to the list doesn't seem mandatory too me as you already have the perfect tool to fight wastelands - Pithing Needle - and to win against Stax - Oath. I like the version Toad presented on the main french vintage forum a few days ago where I first noticed the deck.

http://solomoxen.com/forum/index.php?topic=844.0

Leaving some of the brown mana out is discussable imo but this version also seem to be pretty strong.

Edit: I post the list for more convenience

        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Snow-Covered Island
        1 Tropical Island
        2 Flooded Strand
        2 Island
        2 Polluted Delta
        2 Volcanic Island
        3 Underground Sea
        4 Forbidden Orchard

        1 Darksteel Colossus
        1 Tinker
        4 Oath of Druids
        4 Gifts Ungiven

        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Skeletal Scrying
        1 Thirst for Knowledge
        1 Burning Wish
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Recoup
        1 Regrowth
        1 Time Walk
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        4 Brainstorm

        3 Duress
        4 Mana Drain
        4 Force of Will

SB:  1 Krosan Reclamation
SB:  1 Duress
SB:  1 Hydroblast
SB:  1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:  1 Primitive Justice
SB:  1 Pyroclasm
SB:  1 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  2 Rack and Ruin
SB:  2 Pyroblast
SB:  4 Black Market

In my eyes both lists run too many oathes and Gifts. Just three of them seem absolutly ok for me maybe exchanging it with even more draw. Id also like to discuss the role of Burning Wish: Imo, Cunning Wish could play the same role with Brain Freeze in the side - after Will for your whole graveyard this is allways the win as well - and Berserk as another great way to just say win for four mana without even removing your big dude from the game.

[Dozer]

Very well, I was under the impression that you had to win with a deck yourself and not Wizards Jedi Master Randy Bueler in order to stick your team name on it.  Perhaps, I have been misunderstanding the criteria for deck naming.

He who builds the deck gets to stick his teams' name on it. Also, Randy was clearly under the Meandeck banner. I thought we left that debate behind after the Meandeck Oath naming ceremony?

One of the best bonus reasons to play Oaths Gifts is that sometimes your opponents have no idea what you are doing and what you are playing.  Often you can just go broken without Oath game 1 and then throw your opponent for a loop game 2 when you drop it, Oath out your graveyard, recoup, and go off.

Just like the KrOathan-sideboards from 2002 Keeper. Rakso has already illustrated it in his latest article, and this makes it clear again: Gifts really is the legitimate descendant of Keeper. It has the same amount of possible customization, plays 3-4 colors, the biggest challenge is the manabase and the sideboards become transformational.

As for the Misdirections, in Meandeck Gifts they are/ were necessary to protect the combo. MG is probably the most comboish build of Gifts and therefore is happy about the additional protection for no mana. The question that I see now is if Oath Gifts will make other builds obsolete. Back in the days of Keeper, there was no clear-cut "best" version, but I don't see any area where plain Gifts is better than Oath Gifts. The threat density of Oath Gifts is higher, the mana-base is stronger, the sideboard is better (because the mana base supports Sacred Grounds without stretching), and the Wills are more reliable (thanks to KrOath). Basically, the Thirsts/ Merchant Scrolls got replaced with the stronger Oaths, which tutor up Colossus on their own instead of having to tutor up a Gifts.

When I was working on the deck, I had consistency issues. I now see why: I didn't go all in and thus weakened both game plans, Oath and Gifts. Maxing out on both seems to be the way. I don't see much room for improvement, though, since two big blocks of cards are set almost in stone in the deck, forming the two engines:

4 Oath of Druids
1 Krosan Reclamation

4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Recoup
1 Tinker

+

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Burning Wish
1 Darksteel Colossus

If you build a deck around that frame, I don't see much wiggling room. The blue support suite (FoW, Drain, Brainstorm etc.) has to be in there, and the slots I can see for tinkering around with are the Regrowth and the two Duress. Darkblast should definitely be in there, but apart from that, I don't see what's missing (and Darkblast wasn't legal anyway at the tournament). Sadly, Meandeck won't join the discussion just yet, but I'd be interested anyway in hearing what led to the omission of Lotus Petal from the mana base. It makes green, is excellent with Will, enables first turn Oaths -- I could see it fighting for a spot with Mana Vault.

but I already see a lot of room for improvement.

Care to share?

/edit:

In my eyes both lists run too many oathes and Gifts.

That's interesting, because I am sure that is where my experiments with the hybrid deck failed -- because I didn't have the consequence to actually play 4/4. Regarding Berserk: You can just Time Walk anyway, so there's no need for wasting that SB slot.

Dozer

[rakso]

Also, Randy was clearly under the Meandeck banner. I thought we left that debate behind after the Meandeck Oath naming ceremony?

Heh. Why is no one fighting over "Meandeck Stompy" beating the "Meandeck Breasts"?

Just like the KrOathan-sideboards from 2002 Keeper. Rakso has already illustrated it in his latest article, and this makes it clear again: Gifts really is the legitimate descendant of Keeper. It has the same amount of possible customization, plays 3-4 colors, the biggest challenge is the manabase and the sideboards become transformational.

Being on vacation, I was able to try Gifts in a tourney, and I'd have to say yes and no.

Yes, in the sense that Gifts is probably the current premier blue control deck, but people see more the combo than the control. Gifts is explosive, but the way it felt when I was playing, you are often better off using the superior mana development and draw to control the game, rather than play aggressively when there is a reasonable risk of your play fizzling.

No, in the sense that the combo -- and this is well beyond what The Shining and all those builds tried to do before -- seems to have taken blue control to a completely new level, in the way the possibility of Yawgmoth's Will forced a break in the traditional castle mentality and recursive play of 1996 "The Deck".

[Ged]

Regarding the second list (from Toad)...
1) What happened to Tolarian Academy? Too few artifacts? Still, with all your library in the yard it could make lots of mana.
2) Regrowth seems a bit odd... wouldn't Echoing Truth, Darkblast, TfK#2, Krosan or even Fire/Ice be better?

[PemsAura]

@Ged: How is regrowth odd at all this is a gifts deck with green. Regrowth is a common gifts target so you can recur the broken junk that u bring out with it.

When just goldfishing the deck it definately has some raw power and a lot of autowin draws with plays like mox orchard oath, and mox mox land tinker. I think the deck has a great deal of potential. If anyone has better ideas for strengthening the mana base than sacred ground I would be most interested in hearing them.
~Nate

[Ged]

By odd, I meant not needed (you still have recoup, which has flashback). I'm not saying that it's a bad card, I just think that something better could be in that slot.

[Disburden]

By odd, I meant not needed (you still have recoup, which has flashback). I'm not saying that it's a bad card, I just think that something better could be in that slot.

Regrowth has won me games on it's own. Oathing up Colossus turn two, it got sTp'd. Luckily this happened when I had Regrowth in hand and I dumped pretty much everything into my yard from my library including 3 moxen, lotus, lotus petal, Burning Wish, counters, and the mighty Yawgmoth's Will. I Comboed out for something like 40 on that turn. What would be better in that situation?

Regrowth has been nothing less than awesome for me.

[Ged]

Regrowth has won me games on it's own. Oathing up Colossus turn two, it got sTp'd. Luckily this happened when I had Regrowth in hand and I dumped pretty much everything into my yard from my library including 3 moxen, lotus, lotus petal, Burning Wish, counters, and the mighty Yawgmoth's Will. I Comboed out for something like 40 on that turn. What would be better in that situation?

In that situation probably nothing. Then again you could have had Fling in its place, and win in response to StP, so that's a moot point.
As for the MD slot, I'd rather have Krosan Reclamation in its place. It's instant, has flashback, can fizzle welder activation and in pinch can sometimes even target opponent.
Not to mention that you can oath for the 2nd time without worries and do that Tendrils for 40 as well.

[Skink_123]

I like the Krosan Reclamation, it counters recoup/mystical/Vampiric  on top of being awesome

[Disburden]

In that situation probably nothing. Then again you could have had Fling in its place, and win in response to StP, so that's a moot point.
As for the MD slot, I'd rather have Krosan Reclamation in its place. It's instant, has flashback, can fizzle welder activation and in pinch can sometimes even target opponent.
Not to mention that you can oath for the 2nd time without worries and do that Tendrils for 40 as well.

I'm unsure what you mean. Krosan Reclamation is already in the MD if you are going by the list that Buehler played in the interview.

Sometimes having Regrowth just helps you out when you need anoher flash back card that isn't as mana intensive as recoup for 3R.

Regrowth also gets you another Force of Will you already played, Mana Drain, Brainstorm, etc.

[cssamerican]

I agree this list appears to have more raw power than any previous Gifts list; however, I would not say it is strictly better. For one this list seems much more focused on wining with Colossus, which brings be to my first question for Randy.

How does this fair versus Control Slaver? They can weld out your DSC. In addition, they have a good chance of preventing you from resolving Will. I am saying this not because I have tested it or anything but because you have lost the ability to Merchant Scroll for counters and/or removal like Fire/Ice.

How does this fair against faster combo decks like Dragon or TPS? Before you could Scroll for an Echoing Truth against Dragon or a Force of Will versus TPS to prevent them from going off in the first couple of turns. Merchant Scroll was also another card that could be pitched to Force of Will if need be. Because of this it appears that you have lost some ability to fight these deck when you replaced the Merchant Scrolls with Oath of Druids. I know some people will say that you have added Duress, but nothing was really stopping you from doing that in the original build either, so that seems like a mute point.

It is only going to be a matter of time now before Blood Moon starts showing up. Sacred Ground might be the bomb versus Workshop decks, but it doesn’t do jack versus Blood Moon. Plus, Blood Moon is an answer to the Crucible/Strip lock as well as a solid answer to shut down all these 5c mana bases. I can’t believe no one playing Control Slaver isn’t running this card maindecked right now. But as this trend continues I am sure it will show up. So I got to ask…

How vulnerable is this deck to Blood Moon compared to the original version?

Last but not least, I have no problem with the Meandeck label on this deck, but you got to come up with something better than Gifts-Oath. How about MDGoat or something?