Gifts with Flame-Vault

[Cross]

GG gifts runs a wish and severance main, which works fine in that deck. GGSB doesn't run a wish, and I don't think it needs it.

Getting double red is often difficult, and I would think you would want fusilade mainboard, otherwise you are spending 8 mana on the combo rather than just 6.

Also time vault has use against stax, in that if they are ramping their stax or if they get a tangle down you can just keep skipping your turns. This is not as wide of a use as belcher, but it's worth considering.

[Godot]

Also time vault has use against stax, in that if they are ramping their stax or if they get a tangle down you can just keep skipping your turns. This is not as wide of a use as belcher, but it's worth considering.

Are you serious?  I honestly cant figure out if you're joking or not, cause this is a horrible play.  Their deck is built to survive under stack/wire so giving them extra turns just plays right into their draw engine while preventing you from playing more permanents.  Giving them free turns under Wire will hardly impede their progress at all, and only the absolute bottom of the barrel stax players will ramp Smokestack unless they are in an outright losing position or have a Welder to get rid of it when it gets out of hand.  Basically the only way that Vault helps you against stax is the fact that its a cheap permanent.

[Cross]

Well the situations are a bit more narrow than I described, but it has come up in playtesting.

[mr_rogers]

Null Rob: I respect your point of view on the Day 1 of Waterbury, but after Day 1 was brought up someone should have stated how the Gifts decks with Flame-Vault did Day 2.  I know there were at least 5-6 Gifts decks running that kill.  In order to compare the two kills Flame-Vault needs to be tested is a big tourny to see how it preforms.  So saying the Gifts decks with sev/belcher did well Day 1 without telling me how Gifts decks with Flame-Vault did on Day 2 is pointless.

[War]

However, part of the beauty of the Belcher/Severence list was its ability to win by casting just one of the combo pieces after both players had expended all of their gas or had just fought a counter war over an important spell.  Let's face it: hardcasting Belcher is a fairly fast clock even without Severence, and forces the opponent to either waste time dealing with it while you build up a hand to combo them out, or it makes them race what is usually about a 3-5 turn clock.

In my experience, this has been absolutely correct.  I've seen several games in which Belcher alone has won through damage without Severance -- and perhaps almost as importantly, played one in which Severance had been pitched to Force of Will.  Had Rob not been holding the Severance, he would have had to pitch a much better spell (or been unable to?), and without Belcher, he would not have been able to kill me in response to a lethal spell (either Tendrils or YawgWill, I don't remember).

That said, I also have to agree with the obvious statement that Vault/Fusillade is "cheaper" -- but keep in mind that with Welder on the table, Fusillade actually becomes more expensive and less useful in other situations (Cross's situation as well as Rob's Force).  And, of course, Vault is useless when it is not winning.  If it makes a difference, Time Vault also has no other practical application in Vintage and is quite expensive.

Urza's Contact Lenses would be a strangely suitable replacement.  Oh, the irony.

[mr_rogers]

So everyone seems to agree that Flame-vault is the cheaper kill, what no one is pointing out is how important that can be. Mana is a big deal in decks like Gifts, so a kill that can happen 2-3 turns earlier would seem to be a better choice.  This is especially true when facing combo or fast aggro decks like FCG.  I just wanted to mention this since it really hasn't been stated.  Null Rob made a reference to this when he said the metagame would dictate the kill used. He is right that Flame-vault is better against aggro and combo as it may be able to race those decks. 

[rakso]

Wait... how does Time Vault/Flame Fusillade speed the kill by 2-3 turns?

[Dozer]

The list for the deck is pretty tight already. I had 4 thirsts at first but wanted to be able to run a couple of metagame cards(echoing truth, shaman) in the deck.  I also needed to make sure I had enough artifacts to justify the TFKs in the deck.  I went over the list two or three hours and the only thing I could cut was one TFK.

You could have cut two TfK's and added a Gifts, which would have stopped all your worrying about artifacts. Two Thirsts are easily supported without Needle/ Explosives and the like. I don't like weakening the engine and the winning card for metagame slots. I noted in my current round of testing that in game one, against an unknown opponent, I want the most consistent version of the deck. I'll adjust for game two by the way of the sideboard. The deck is a Gifts deck, so I want to see Gifts Ungiven. Thirst is a support card. Gifts is the card that wins me the game. That's why I'd always start out maxing on Gifts instead of Thirsts. (What happened was this: After Carsten Kötter had chided me for not using four Gifts. I did so, on the grounds that he has more experience than me, and my playtesting results immediately got better.)

I know that Brassman Gifts does it the other way around. That feels a lot like a weaker Slaver setup to me, though, because you can't maximize your Thirst discard as well as CS. In Slaver, Thirst is often the card that lets you setup the win, but less so in Gifts. I think it is more than just a matter of playstyle. I understand that Thirst leads to a better mana curve and does get you closer to Gifts, too. I like Thirsts as a strong drawer. But with less than four Gifts, the risk of not finding it when I want it, and I can't use Gifts as aggressively as I like to do with only two or even three. Having less Gifts means less painful decisions ("what to take? er..."), but that is no reason not to play four Gifts.

I didn't run the tendril's kill because I consider it too hard to pull off.  I was kind of new at playing Gifts and wanted kill conditions that I knew would work well.

The question then arises: Does the Gifts deck need an additional kill? If so, the debate is between Belcher/ Severance and Flame Vault. But with a bit of practice, sensing the Tendrils kill is not that hard and easier than it looks at first sight. Is there a reason to run a two-card combo as tertiary win condition at all?

I think there is, and more than one. One reason is that you gain the ability to win without effort at a small loss, which is matters most against decks that can kill you before you set up the Gifts. What you need to do that, though, is a reliable number of Tutors. When you hold either Fusillade or Vault, you want to get the other part as soon as possible, and you need more tutors than just Gifts Ungiven itself to do that. A second reason is that you can do some amazing Gifts splits with it, by putting a combo singleton in a Gifts. What that does is guaranteeing you the cards you want. A third reason is that without a combo win, you are putting your eggs in a very small basket indeed and weaken Burning Wish -- if you use it as utility, you are entirely reliant on Colossus. The decks that you need Wish as utility against are mostly aggro-control decks, and they have ways to deal with your DSC. With the combo as backup, Burning Wish is free to be what it can do best: brokenly good. And last, yes, the Tendrils kill is indeed tiresome and easy to screw up, at least more so than Flame Vault, and requires more setup.

Why are you overly focusing on Severance or Fusillade main?

If you don't put Flame Fusillade in your maindeck, you shouldn't run Flame Vault, in my opinion. If you have to Wish for the second part of the combo, then you definitely want the less dead card in your deck, and that is Belcher (compared to Time Vault). Only if you can assemble the combo out of your deck, then you want Time Vault over Belcher because it is cheaper, less disruptible and simply faster. Also, see the above Gifts "trick" why you want both parts MD.

Wait... how does Time Vault/Flame Fusillade speed the kill by 2-3 turns?

The natural progression of the mana curve of the combo. Since you need Vault before you Flame, a first turn Time Vault puts any opponent on a very short fuse. 1st turn Time Vault, 2nd turn tutor for Fusillade, 3rd turn win is something you will not pull of with Severance/ Belcher barring even more luck than is needed to have the Vault in hand. I'm not saying it happens often, but more often than with Belcher for sure.

Regarding the Time Vault vs Stax thing, it does in fact come up. Of course you do not want your opponent to gain infinite turns to completely ramp his Smokestack and deploy half his deck. But it is not a bad idea to let your opponent have the first go at his own Wire, since that is when Wire is most potent. The thing to remember is that you will have a charged Time Vault. Time Walking at your discretion is good against Stax like every other deck, even if it is just for dropping an extra permanent or getting another draw. And Stax is the deck that creates situations where changing the turn order via a donated Time Walk (because that's basically what Time Vault does) can be detrimental for your opponent.

btw.....if any1 wants it here is my list early... for day 1

The decklist has no relevance whatsoever to the discussion about Flame Vault.

Dozer

[JigglyPuff]

Day 2 i ended playing 3 gifts variant decks..1 belcher and 1 flamevault...and one Meandeck...

Round 4(day 2) i played someone on myriad(i think) 
he took the first with an early severence and a late game tinker for charbelcher....
my colossuss won the second and my early severence drew me recall into deep analysis into brainstorm into will....Charbelcher time walk...untap win...
 
me v. flame vault...i reb(maindeck) a tinker he forces back and i force with the only blue card in hand(severence)...topdeck thirst into merchant scroll...gg....

moral of the story is belcher is better...
Top 4 Crossman v. Eli....
eli was about to win, and cossman burped into fourteen cards and a volc....

gg was running flame vault at the last beanie tourney...1-2 drop....there were 3 belcher gifts in the top 8....    (my first mox)

all in all u can use whatever u want but i think the belcher is more versitile by itself...flam vault is the better COMBO..but doesnt have the ability to win with only one piece...

[Null Rob]

me v. flame vault...i reb(maindeck) a tinker he forces back and i force with the only blue card in hand(severence)...topdeck thirst into merchant scroll...gg....

I know I already mentioned this earlier in the thread, but JigglyPuff just provided me with a perfect example of how important the fact that Severence is a blue card can be.  If he's playing FlameVault instead, he loses this game.

I understand that Thirst leads to a better mana curve and does get you closer to Gifts, too. I like Thirsts as a strong drawer. But with less than four Gifts, the risk of not finding it when I want it, and I can't use Gifts as aggressively as I like to do with only two or even three. Having less Gifts means less painful decisions ("what to take? er..."), but that is no reason not to play four Gifts.

The problem with the 4 Gifts / 0 Thirst configuration is exactly as you pointed out: barring a draw with ridiculous mana acceleration, Thirst always comes online turn 2, as opposed to turn 3 for Gifts.  So when your Gifts list is casting Merchant Scroll or Brainstorm (both turn 1 plays) on turn 2, we are casting Thirst For Knowledge and looking at more cards, drawing us into more counterspells and gas for your next turn Gifts Ungiven.  This deck runs so many tutors, plus Brainstorm/Fetch, that you NEVER have a problem finding a Gifts when you need it.  The problem with running 4 Gifts is that you usually don't need to cast Gifts more than once, and you NEVER want to cast it more than twice.  One resolved Gifts is almost always going to give you enough of a lead in either the card advantage or card quality war that it will inevitably lead to a win. 

And to respond to Rakso, Dozer was right on with what he said about Flame Fusillade maindeck:

If you don't put Flame Fusillade in your maindeck, you shouldn't run Flame Vault, in my opinion. If you have to Wish for the second part of the combo, then you definitely want the less dead card in your deck, and that is Belcher (compared to Time Vault). Only if you can assemble the combo out of your deck, then you want Time Vault over Belcher because it is cheaper, less disruptible and simply faster. Also, see the above Gifts "trick" why you want both parts MD.

If Fusillade is in the sideboard, it takes away any advantage that the combo has over Belcher and Severence.  It is no longer faster, it requires RR (as opposed to simply U and colorless with Severence Belcher) to go off, and it probably needs to be stretched out over 3 turns, leaving the Time Vault in play VERY vulnerable to artifact destruction or bounce effects (the first obviously being much more detrimental than the second, because it forces you to find Will or Tinker to win).  However, this doesn't mean that you can't run both a Burning Wish and a Fusillade in the maindeck.  You'll lose one metagame slot, but it allows you to keep the ability to recur Time Walk 3 or 4 times.

[Whatever Works]

Its way to early to accept or dismiss the flame-vault kill. So far in everything I have seen its not as good in GIFTS. However, I never got the notice that every new combo had to be run in a gifts based deck. This flame-vault combo could just as easily be played in CS, Mono Red Tangle Wire Stax, all the way to doomsday for all I care. I think that taking good combos and instantly narrowing them down to only 1 potential deck option is narrow minded, and a big mistake.

[Dozer]

True. But this thread was started by the question if Flame Vault is good in Gifts, not the question about decks in which Flame Vault is good. I could even see it capping the mana curve of Sligh, for heaven's sake... (think Legacy Sligh with the full 8 Flame Vault slots!) But you are correct in saying that the time is not there yet to speak a final judgement in the Flame Vault vs Belcher debate (if it will ever be).

The problem with the 4 Gifts / 0 Thirst configuration is exactly as you pointed out: barring a draw with ridiculous mana acceleration, Thirst always comes online turn 2, as opposed to turn 3 for Gifts.

I wasn't aiming for a 4/0-configuration as in Meandeck Gifts. I am quite a fan of Thirst for Knowledge in Gifts-decks! I even run them myself. But I still consider it imperative to run 4 Gifts Ungiven. Believe me, if I could, I'd run 4 Gifts, 4 Thirst, a couple of Merchant Scrolls and Sensei's Divining Top. Alas, the deck doesn't have room for that, so you have to skim cards off the draw section. And while doing so, I tried a 3/3 configuration but found it weaker than a 4/2 Gifts/Thirst split. TfK is a great card. But in my testing of Control Slaver, I felt that it is so much stronger in CS than Gifts it's not even funny anymore. And when you try to make Gifts do what it is supposed to do --abuse Gifts Ungiven-- I like to have as many copies of Gifts as I can. Also, having only two Thirsts allows you to run less gimp artifacts and streamline the deck a little more.

If he's playing FlameVault instead, he loses this game.

If he has Fusillade in hand, he can let his opponent have the Colossus. Both players are likely out of counters, so he eot Vamps for Vault and wins next turn. He can even let his opponent have one attack and use another Tutor or a tutor chain or a draw spell.

My point is that "in this situation, if card x had been card y"-argumentation is merely anecdotal. I'm not dismissing it out of hand, but the sample is too small. There will be as many games where it matters that Severance is blue or Belcher works without it as games where it matters that Time Vault costs only two or Fusillade can kill creatures. We will see after the weekend after next which versions will fare better (SCG Chicago and Dutch Champs).

Dozer

[Null Rob]

If he has Fusillade in hand, he can let his opponent have the Colossus. Both players are likely out of counters, so he eot Vamps for Vault and wins next turn. He can even let his opponent have one attack and use another Tutor or a tutor chain or a draw spell.

Who said anything about him having a Vamp tutor??  If he actually had had one, letting the Tinker resolve would clearly be the right play, but he didn't mention anywhere that he had a vamp in hand.

[Lunar]

My main argument for the vault combo is that it just wins right now more often and earlier than anything else ive seen in gifts (this is from me playing against it) the fact that now a gifts player can just go ahead and let something like an opposing collosus go through no problem (at least easier than in the past, since now they have both a faster win AND bounce to deal with it) and then just win on their turn is pretty sweet...

In testing among my little team of players I might drop a first turn titan or trike and beat away for a while, and the gifts deck just doesnt care..so what if titan is going to win in a turn, the combo wins now even after losing a land or two since it is cheaper...this is great since belcher wouldnt have stood a chance on its own if it came down to it really and often it wouldnt have been enough mana to cast the severence...

I know its not super super common, but before I could (with my cerebral assasin deck...heh, so I know this isnt a super common thing for you guys to worry about) get an early platinum angel out to buy me a ton of time, at the worst it buys at least one extra turn with belcher out and buys X turns with collosus out until non rebuild bounce can be found. Now Platinum Angel for me just doesnt matter...the fact that certain answers in the past that would work against gifts wont work against gifts with vault all the time....just something to keep in mind...

This might be the same argument as Control versions of Akroma Oath vs Control versions Salvager Oath, heh...

I understand that belcher is really good on its own, but being able to win for sure sooner and easier through things like wastelands and stuff is a major major bonus...

[Greenebean]

Well I am glad that this post has created such a stir thus far, being a fellow team mate posted it. In my own opinion good points have been made for both sides. The point that I feel needs to be stressed again though is the fact that this deck has been played in one big tournament, which was obviously Waterbury Day 2. Let Chicago come and pass, see the results and really start to judge then. Many varients of vault/fusillade are going to come and go. My team mates and I are attempting to innovate a new version of Gifts.dec which may be very good in a control meta. More testing will have to be done before I would even consider posting my deck list and having it torn to shreds though.

This combo will only become better with time, as well as our knowledge of how the deck really plays too. I feel that the severance/belcher kill, as well as the fusillade/vault kill will be running around in the heavy Workshop Chicago meta, and I wish it the best of luck:-D

But, like I said, good points made by both sides.

[mr_rogers]

Wow, lots of posts. I'm happy to see some agreement how flame-vault being cheaper makes it better.  I really agree with everything Lunar said.  I've been testing the kill more and love how easy it is to just win with the flame-vault kill.  There are games where a second turn mand drain has been all the mana I need to go off.  I definately think the kill needs to be tested in Gifts more, but so far it's what I'm running and really liking for a second win in the deck.

[War]

I've been testing the kill more and love how easy it is to just win with the flame-vault kill.  There are games where a second turn mand drain has been all the mana I need to go off.

Fusillade + Vault costs a total of 5R, as you well know.  Assuming you play a third mana source on your turn three, you will have had to drain into three additional mana.  I definitely appreciate the ability of these two cards to win immediately, but consider this:  if you had Severance/Belcher in your hand, you would have only had to invest the same six mana to play both and guarantee a win on the next turn.  Additionally, you would not have had to (a) play a Volcanic Island, meaning that your Wasteland vulnerability is lower should you fail, and (b) had you only held one of the two cards in your hand, you would be able to still play it off Drain mana and see some impact on the game state.

In no way do I think that FlameVault is a strictly worse option, but the benefits offered by the Belcher kill seem to be more relevant more of the time.  The three-mana difference, although substantial over the course of one turn, is covered in a single untap phase with Belcher, and does not justify the drawbacks in my mind.

[Revvik]

Its way to early to accept or dismiss the flame-vault kill. So far in everything I have seen its not as good in GIFTS. However, I never got the notice that every new combo had to be run in a gifts based deck. This flame-vault combo could just as easily be played in CS, Mono Red Tangle Wire Stax, all the way to doomsday for all I care. I think that taking good combos and instantly narrowing them down to only 1 potential deck option is narrow minded, and a big mistake.

Well, it's already been established that Meandeck DoomGOAT is the best Doomsday variant (Soldevi Digger recurs Time Walk while Mountain Goat attacks via an opponent's Phantasmal Terrain'ed land), so Flame Vault hardly gives the edge here.

There are so many kills these days trying to be packed into the Gifts Ungiven-based decklist, it's insane.  In fact, the only advantage THIS particular combo has is that it is almost entirely colorless mana and can be completed quickly off Mana Drain mana - but Severance Belcher has the same quality.

Look at the individual pieces to this combo.  Are they dead cards without the other?  100% of the time.

[Greenebean]

@ Revvik: "Look at the individual pieces to this combo.  Are they dead cards without the other?  100% of the time."

That is not totally true. Fusillade can do damage on its own without needing time vault. As a matter of fact to solidify my point, I was beat Day 2 of Waterbury by just Fusillade. I was down to 7 and my opponent cast it, it resolved and he tapped 7 permanents and killed me. Depending what part of the game you are in, Fusillade can be used on its own.

[War]

I was down to 7 and my opponent cast it, it resolved and he tapped 7 permanents and killed me.

So he tapped four mana sources and seven other permanents to kill you.  I think it's worth noting that Belcher would have done the job with that much mana available, and, if you're interested in efficiency, so would have Searing Flesh.

It may do the job, but you can do it better and more reliably another way.

Another small point is the increased usefulness of Tinker where Belcher is involved.  Rather than a mana loss, you end up with a mana gain.

[Lunar]

Since it is starting to lead that way...and just slap me on the hand for de-railing this thread and ignore me if you want...but might flame/vault be best in something like stax that CAN abuse both pieces on their own? That seems to be the #1 argument against the combo (that it is dead on its own in gifts most of the time) so why are we not talking more about it going into a deck that can actually use them both on their own...?

[Greenebean]

Since it is starting to lead that way...and just slap me on the hand for de-railing this thread and ignore me if you want...but might flame/vault be best in something like stax that CAN abuse both pieces on their own? That seems to be the #1 argument against the combo (that it is dead on its own in gifts most of the time) so why are we not talking more about it going into a deck that can actually use them both on their own...?

Very good point indeed. I feel that this kill can be used in some other kind of deck, and I think someting like Stax or another Workshop deck could take advantage of Fusillade by itself.

[War]

Lunar:  I was leaning that way too.  Does it warrant its own thread?

[Lunar]

Well I think this thread is getting stalled out...those with one view vs those with another and I dont think either will convince the other without more tournament results to back up the arguments...

Ive tried brining it up (along with b-tings bringing it up) in the 5colorstax thread...but we are currently pretty hung up on possessed portal being in stax there....

If you wish to begin a thread on it, and have a relevant deck list then by all means post away...otherwise, if any of you have some lesser things to talk about then I suggest trying to bring it back up in the current stax thread....im not sure if it should stand on its own when there is already a major stax thread underway...

[mr_rogers]

I agree that this thread is stalled at the moment.  Mods feel free to close this.

[rakso]

I think the theoretical arguments have been covered well. Any actual testing or tournament ancedotal data?

[Greenebean]

Rakso: I am in the long process of testing my gifts build, which I assure you is different than any other one out there. I will be posting my list, testing results, etc within the next week to two weeks. I would hate to post pre-mature test results and have it be wrong. I am through Dragon and Control Slaver and tonight I am working on the Gifts Mirror, even though most cases my build detroys it:-D I will keep everyone posted.

Granted I realize that no one even knows who I am so my opinion does not rank as high as most other people, but I hope that in the weeks to come my build may shake things up a bit.

[Dozer]

I think the theoretical arguments have been covered well. Any actual testing or tournament ancedotal data?

Wait until the weekend is over, o impatient one-line poster. I've pointed to SCG Chicago and the Dutch Champs before, and I can say for sure that at least one Flame Vault Gifts build will be present at one of the tournaments. And yes, I will write a report, but I think I have made my case clear as fas as the theory goes in this thread.

So, don't no-one dare close this yet! We will have results to present and further discussion will definitely ensue, especially about sideboard strategies...

Dozer

[rakso]

By the way... are the Flame Vault players advocating running both Fusillade and Burning Wish main? If so, that's another slot and another potential early dead draw.

[mr_rogers]

I ran both a wish and fusillade main at Waterbury, but might switch to no wish.  I like the idea of being able to use the wish though.