December 1

[Machinus]

Library of Alexandria is hardly played as a one of for several reasons. It isn't easy keeping exactly seven cards in one's hand when the format is so fast. It is a non-basic land that doesn't produce color mana, which if played on turn one or two could prevent you from having the double blue needed for Mana Drain. Now if we unrestricted it and someone runs it as a four of all those problems will become even more magnified.

Are you saying LoA is powerful or weak?

[cssamerican]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7699.html

4 FOF BBS got 3nd place??  Out of GAT, BBS, 4 Necro Trix, Long, etc.  BBS was REALLY really  broken.  It could have beaten GAT. 

Steve that is hardly a conclusive test. You played BBS against five decks and beat the three older combo decks and lost to the two newer decks, Long and GaT. I bet you would have gotten equal or better results with the current Gifts decks. You have to test it against what is current because this format has gotten much stronger decks with the recent influx of newer cards.

Library of Alexandria is hardly played as a one of for several reasons. It isn't easy keeping exactly seven cards in one's hand when the format is so fast. It is a non-basic land that doesn't produce color mana, which if played on turn one or two could prevent you from having the double blue needed for Mana Drain. Now if we unrestricted it and someone runs it as a four of all those problems will become even more magnified.

Are you saying LoA is powerful or weak?

I am saying it is strong in a slow metagame like that of four years ago, and weak due its drawbacks in a fast one like the one we have today. In today's game it isn't played as a one of in many cases because the drawbacks outweigh the rewards, so why would you increase the chances for those drawbacks to occur by running it as a four of?

[Smmenen]

The BBS v. GAT match was EXTREMELY close.  It was a 2-1 match that could have gone either way.

I think Gifts is a better card than Fact, but Fact is more broken unrestricted.... for reasons I'm not sure why. 

Some day I will do another battle of the banned decks and, afterward, I will try some modern decks against them. 

[Godder]

A lot of the less obvious cards on the Restricted List don't do much unless you have multiples to build your deck around e.g. Dream Halls, Library of Alexandria, Fact or Fiction. One Fact or Fiction does quite a bit, but playing two or three in a game is stupid, especially with Yawgmoth's Will. Gifts, on the other hand, is always powerful, but additional copies aren't necessarily more powerful than the first one, relative to the game state.

[Klep]

It could perhaps be that a Fact or Fiction into another Fact or Fiction leads into an unrecoverable situation for the opponent, whereas getting a Gifts with Gifts does not.

It could also be that with Fact or Fiction you always have the final say as to which cards enter your hand, whereas with Gifts you do not.

Ultimately I think the answer to the question lies in the fact that the questions presented to the opponent by Fact or Fiction are far more difficult to answer correctly than those presented by Gifts.

EDIT: There is also something to be said for the fact that the questions presented to the person playing Gifts are far more difficult than the questions asked of he who plays Fact.

[Komatteru]

I think Gifts is a better card than Fact, but Fact is more broken unrestricted.... for reasons I'm not sure why. 

The second Gifts is never quite objectively as good as the first, unless you're doing a "I need mana!" on the first.  Gifts is much more specialized, so you're not getting a random collection of broken cards, as you often are with FoF.

[knickers]

I think a lot of you are missing something on the Black Vise topic ...
You know, once someone mentions "STAX" ... they don't necessarily mean "Uba Mask" ...  they could be talking about the deck that runs 4x Tangle Wire's, and 3-4x Sphere of Resistance?? ... I think if you were to run 4x Black Vise in this sort of prison deck ... then it would be a lot better ...

 

[cssamerican]

The BBS v. GAT match was EXTREMELY close.  It was a 2-1 match that could have gone either way.

I think Gifts is a better card than Fact, but Fact is more broken unrestricted.... for reasons I'm not sure why. 

Some day I will do another battle of the banned decks and, afterward, I will try some modern decks against them. 

This would be very intresting. I am curious how BBS and GaT would compare to today's Stax, Oath, and Gifts decks. I have a feeling people will be very suprised to see just how good decks have gotten over the last couple of years.

There is no proof that Fact is more powerful unrestricted than Gifts. It might be because of some of the reasons stated here, but we just don't know for sure. My only point is if we want cards unrestricted so that we can play with them we need to take a few risk every now and then with the restricted list. There is no point to wait so long to remove a card from the list that card is virtually unplayable when it comes off the list, Fork anyone. It isn't as if a mistake was made that it couldn't fixed and fixed relatively fast.  Unrestrict Fact or Fiction, if it turns out to still be too broken as a four of just restrict it again.

[Smmenen]

I used to think that Fact or Fiction could be unrestricted until I played that little tournament.

Fact was really fucking busted in it.  Put it this way.  Long won the BBS match, but BBS was on the play and went:

Sapphire, Island and
Long won on turn one through THREE COUNTERSPELLS.  That's how good BBS and Long are. 


I also played BBS in Vintage at the time and I supported its restriction at the time it was restricted. 

[Dozer]

Last time I checked everyone pretty much agrees that Gifts Ungiven is more powerful than Fact or Fiction, yet Fact or Fiction is restricted and Gifts Ungiven is not. On top of that, no one is calling for Gifts Ungiven to be restricted, so this leads me to believe that Fact or Fiction should be unrestricted. I am curious as to how anyone can argue that it should remain on the list.

Critical mass, and skill. You don't want to have decks running around with 4 FoF + any number of Gifts Ungiven available. That is so much card draw that all other control engines would fall by the wayside. Besides, I am thoroughly convinced that decks with 4 FoF don't even need Gifts Ungiven anymore, and I would contest that Fact or Fiction is still stronger than Gifts Ungiven. It usually draws more cards, and involves much less skill on your side while testing the skill of your opponent even more than Gifts Ungiven does. When you play Gifts, the choices are often clear, unless you messed up and your opponent does, too. Putting the right cards in a Gifts Ungiven is much more complicated than just turning over five from your library and letting your opponent do all the work.

I'd much rather play control in a world where Fact is legal and Gifts is restricted than the other way around.

Dozer

[Mykeatog]

Knowing everything I have EVER known about restrictions/bannings there is really only one thing to expect on december first....

Goodbye Goblin Lackey (and/or Goblin Ringleader).

After the Legacy championships, with 3 months of solid testing and teching... Goblin lackey still fucked up the GP. Isn't that what matters?

Am I wrong to say that the format is Lackey vs. Anti-Lackey? With all decks ignoring this idea just getting destroyed. Everyone thought that Reset was going to be a big deal, but it wasn't (rinse-wash-repeat for Time Vault). The format may be untested enough that it isn't fair to put Lackey the side, but there is always room for unbanning if it is proved that he can be stopped. Unfortunately, this hasn't been proved yet.

[SpencerForHire]

Knowing everything I have EVER known about restrictions/bannings there is really only one thing to expect on december first....

Goodbye Goblin Lackey (and/or Goblin Ringleader).

After the Legacy championships, with 3 months of solid testing and teching... Goblin lackey still fucked up the GP. Isn't that what matters?

Am I wrong to say that the format is Lackey vs. Anti-Lackey?

That hasn't stopped Will from being legal in vintage.

[Matt]

Reset came ridiculously close to T8ing. I don't think you can just wave your hand and dismiss it.