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Author Topic: Uba Stax - pseudo primer  (Read 80492 times)
PucktheCat
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« Reply #180 on: January 18, 2006, 10:35:40 am »

I can see that line of reasoning.  I will try it the other way around.

I agree that Shamans are an obvious disinclude.

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« Reply #181 on: January 18, 2006, 11:19:32 am »

pyr0ma5ta,
  Would Wooded Foothills or a Windswept Heath be better than a 4th Taiga?  With a Crucible out you can repeatedly use the fetchland to grab all your Taigas.  Also if you are concerned about it being wastelanded you can wait to fetch a taiga till you actually have something you want to play.

The drawbacks are that after you use it once you only have two Taiga's left to draw (I consider this a plus) and the loss of 1 life.
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« Reply #182 on: January 18, 2006, 12:38:55 pm »

A random Fetch?  Definitely has synergy with the crucible, but seems....kind of bad.  Fastbond is something I want on the table as fast as possible, and Cropper is an instant (if you waste my taiga and I'm holding cropper, I laugh maniacally).  I'm pretty sure I want the taiga as fast as possible.  As far as fetching goes, I usually am not missing land drops, and my lands are all so much more powerful than fetches anyway. 

I'll tell my playtest buddy to run a maindeck Rushing River or Chain of Vapor.  I still think that it's not an unwinnable matchup by any means, rather, the Stax player has tons of bombs in his deck that just ruin Oath (Stack, Dup, Bazaar/welder, Chalice) and I can often just prevent activations.  That said, Null Rods and Shamans come out, and Dups and maybe Chasm or something good comes in.  I don't have a sideboard right now, so I'll figure something out later.
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« Reply #183 on: January 18, 2006, 03:31:38 pm »

I usually do the following (Mind you, I play 1x sundering titan, -1 solemn MD)

-1 Sundering Titan
-2 Gorilla Shaman
-3 Null Rod
-4 Uba Mask

+2 Duplicant
+4 Maze of Ith
+4 REB
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« Reply #184 on: January 21, 2006, 06:10:59 pm »

Vroman, I read on SCG that you're going back to mono-red.  Is this true?  If so, is your build the same with the addition of glacial chasm/fiery temper?

Also, if it's true, what are the reasons for you going back to mono-red?  Chalice at 1 or no consistency in playing crop/fastbond?
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« Reply #185 on: January 22, 2006, 09:25:05 am »

Has anyone ever tried testing Teferi's puzzle box in the deck?  It makes sure that the opponenent can never really keep a hand, and therefore plays like end of turn gifts, and withholding counters becomes a much weaker play.  It is also good with Uba mask, as it acts like a wheel of fortune every turn, removing their hand from the game.  Once they have 0, it doesn't do muh though.  Another plus, is that anythiing that "puts cards into their hands" like Fact or Fiction, Gifts, etc, is still stopped on their draw step
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« Reply #186 on: January 22, 2006, 05:20:54 pm »

Has anyone ever tried testing Teferi's puzzle box in the deck?  It makes sure that the opponenent can never really keep a hand, and therefore plays like end of turn gifts, and withholding counters becomes a much weaker play.  It is also good with Uba mask, as it acts like a wheel of fortune every turn, removing their hand from the game.  Once they have 0, it doesn't do muh though.  Another plus, is that anythiing that "puts cards into their hands" like Fact or Fiction, Gifts, etc, is still stopped on their draw step

It does nothing for you, however.  If you're holding cards that you eventually want to get rid of, Bazaar should do the trick.  Uba Mask is good enough long-term advantage.  Gifts is bad, sure, but if they ever Gifts, they're most likely going to win right there.  Interesting idea, though.
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« Reply #187 on: January 22, 2006, 07:40:25 pm »

Not just that, but when there is no uba it stops decks from "setting up" thier hands, mostly combo and control. Th
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« Reply #188 on: January 23, 2006, 06:48:15 pm »

Vroman, I read on SCG that you're going back to mono-red.  Is this true?  If so, is your build the same with the addition of glacial chasm/fiery temper?

Also, if it's true, what are the reasons for you going back to mono-red?  Chalice at 1 or no consistency in playing crop/fastbond?

Here is the original thing from SCG that Everpence was referring to:

Quote from: Disburden
I have been playing Vroman's GR list for Uba Stax since it was mentioned on TMD. I strongly believe this version is better than the Mono R version and can also quite possibly be the strongest deck in the format today. I have no had a problem running for Barbarian Ring, but maybe I should put in a Fourth Taiga for it. I have had some problems with not having Green mana on the first turn, which would be broken with Fastbond. I have had Crop and Fastbond dead in my hand quite a bit from drawing Barbarain Ring and not Taiga.

My response was this:

Quote from: yespuhyren
I am currently playing Mono R Uba, as I feel it is stronger than the G/R version.  I have also voiced my opinion over at TMD too on the issue.  The green cards are excellent, yes, but

A) They are one shot, and can't be welded around
B) If you can set a chalice to one, you usually do, as its the best number to set it at.  This shuts off the only two reasons for running green.

Quote from: vroman
the RG list is very strong, but Im going back to monoR, for pretty much the reasons mentioned above.
-disynergy w chalice@1
-color screw w too few green sources

consistency wins tournaments, not cool brokenness.

I just wanted to post this here for anyone who doesn't read SCG, as it is now not only my opinion being voiced on the matter, but Vroman as well has seconded what I'm saying, and people listen to him cause he's good :lol:.

Therefore, if Vroman agrees to go back to Mono R, then he's probably right Very Happy
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« Reply #189 on: January 23, 2006, 07:16:20 pm »

Yespuhyrens reasons are right. I tested the GR version about 30-40 games agains slaver and one of my green spells never resolved in any game that mattered. Either I didnt have the green to cast it, I already put out the savage play of Chalice at 1 or they got forced/drained. Nothing sucks more than getting crop rotation countered, even if it does get a force out of thier hand. Finally, neither can be played from the graveyard, so if you pitch it to bazaar its gone forever. At least you can weld in artifacts at a later time.

Fastbond/crucible will be the house against opposing stax decks, but I already feel the matchup is in UbaStax's favor (4 crucibles, better draw, better welders, 4x barbarian rings).
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« Reply #190 on: January 23, 2006, 07:55:24 pm »

The oath matchup is definetly in favor of Oath, so I think Moxlotus's numbers are about right. I disagree with Puck though, and I take out null rod. Yes, it does slow oath down a turn, but it also disrupts your ability to play your fatty artifacts that can actually prove problematic for oath: Smokestack and Duplicant. I think shamans also come out. Uba mask isnt as bad as you might think agianst oath, simply cause they might randomly remove a win condition from the game.

Duplicant is an amazing card in this deck because you can cheat the cost with welder/bazaar. I know that Vroman will board in extra duplicants against competent slaver players because welder advantage is so important in that matchup.
I will also chime in with advice against siding out mask before rod, if only because if you lucksack into uba mask + bazaar, things just got really good for you.  Plus, the chance of a random uba lock when you already have a token is probably a bigger deal than the chance of a random turn 1 null rod hurting them more than you.  Monkey gets the axe.

I have thought about the puzzle box against gifts, but have not had a real chance to test it.  It is a pretty cool way of forcing their mana threshhold up a ton.  However, I have two problems with the idea.  First is there's not enough to side out, and second is if they're holding like 6 cards their chances of tearing through their deck until they find a tinker just became obscene, and your only real way to fight that is active welder + dupes in the yard.  Unpretty, considering you are more worried about rebuild -> tendrils.  Well, aside from brainstorm, which is a whole can of worms by itself.
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« Reply #191 on: January 23, 2006, 08:18:45 pm »

The main reason for the idea of Teferi's Puzzlebox was actually because of a certain hatred for 2/60 slots in the deck.

Wheel of fortune has been moderately useful, though I would very much like to replace it with something more effective.  Under uba, it is amazing, but without an uba, it doesn't seem as good as I'd like it to

Solemn Simulacrum is also a great card, but I haven't found it to be good enough to warrant inclusion.  I've been testing the normal deck at

-1 solemn
+1 sundering titan

but haven't really liked the results I've obtained from that decklist as well.

Using Magic Workstation, I've looked through EVERY...yes...EVERY red card and artifact, specifically looking for cards that could better replace the slots.  For red cards, I've only really noticed Winds of Change, which has a lot of pros and cons, though the cons FAR outweight the pros.  It is also the same idea as Wheel.  Great under uba.  Otherwise its not so great.

For artifacts, I specifically was looking for

A) Possible lock pieces
B) Artifacts NOT hosed by my own null rods.  I came up with the following

1) Sphere of Resistance - Tested this a while back with great results, but hated cutting an uba and a duplicant to fill the slots.

2) Sundering Titan - Tested this, and although I feel it is still an improvement from Solemn Simulacrum, it is still not working out as well as I'd hoped.

3) Teferi's Puzzlebox - Thought of it, and never really got an opportunity to test this vs. a good player wielding a good deck. 

Again, the main theory was that although they might be able to find their cards more quickly, the benefit is that under Uba its a hand RFG effect every turn (they can get cards in hand by gifts, FOF, etc), as well as it stops your opponents from setting up their win. 

The point about it helping them find their rebuild and/or tinker had never even occurred to me, and I'm glad the issue had come up, as now I know that it won't work

Again, the problem stands though, I'm DEFINITELY not too happy with a slot being used for Solemn Simulacrum, and I'm not really that happy about a slot being used for Wheel of Fortune.  The real issue, though, is....is there anything better, or are we stuck with this.
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« Reply #192 on: January 24, 2006, 02:29:32 pm »

The strength of Wheel, as opposed to Puzzle Box, is that the Wheel has to be cast on your turn, meaning that anything other than instants that they draw are RFG'ed by Uba Mask. Puzzle Box does nothing like that because it happens at a time when they can still use the majority of their cards. It's not a good addition or a good plan. It's basically giving them the good part of Wheel of Fortune for the first turn, and then not doing anything at all after that. Since they won't have cards to put on the bottom of their library, then the Puzzle Box will do nothing beyond the first activation.

I'm rather surprised that you're consistantly able to cast Sundering Titan in the event that it's revealed by an Uba Mask, but if that hasn't been a problem for you, the more power to ya.
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« Reply #193 on: January 25, 2006, 08:17:55 pm »

puzzle box is ass. ubastax already has a fairly greedy number of 4 drops. this is far from the bomb of smoky/uba, nor is it even decent board advantage like jens. the 'disruption' offered by puzzlebox is very easy to play around, and if you have uba out, they already lose enough cards, its not worth cluttering up the deck w puzzlebox for the negliglible extra discard effect.
if you insist on cutting jens: Ive tested, and can recomend, tormod crypt main. even w n-rod in the deck, maindeck graveyard hate is powerful against almost all tier decks, and underplayed, thus unexpected.

as for my build, yes Im happily back to mono R. theres a lot of subtleties to ubastax and vintage in general, and not any very scientific way to determine superiority among decks. nonetheless, lots of detailed testing and my instincts say in the long run, that adding a second color and a pair of 1-drops, hurts the consistency, more than the new bombs helps the explosiveness. Ive had my eye on Sphere of Resistance for a long time, and have been listening to a lot of ubastax veterans constantly questioning jens and wheel. Im loath to drop either, as they have proven themselves both dependable and abusable. Im running this list now:
4 shop
4 bazaar
4 waste
4 bring
3 mtn
1 strip
1 academy
9 artifact mana
4 smoky
4 welder
4 crucible
4 chalice
4 resistor
3 nrod
3 uba
2 monkey
1 dup
1 trisphere

side
4 pblast
3 visheretic
3 mazith
2 dup
2 tormod
1 jester cap

main, I cut [jens, wheel, uba#4, dup#2]. the only questionable of these four, is dropping to only one main dup. against oath, halving my chances to top deck dup via bazaar w welder on board, is effectively eliminating that as a viable win condition. depending on 4 mana and an early smoky or chalice @ 2, means more muligans and fewer game 1 wins. however, resistor is as always a powerhouse. its just another way to dominate on the play. even workshop decks can suffer badly when faced w turn 0 resistor. it lowers the overall mana curve substantially also. I cut a combined 17 mana (3 even non-shop) and added 8 mana, all shop-playable.
the only other choice to cut main, in order to keep 2 dups, is monkey#2. cutting one gorilla shaman may be the superior choice, as it clears up a chalice@1 slot, reduces color mana dependency; both reasons I abandoned the green splash. increased use of darkblast also makes monkey less effective. however monkey is clearly powerful mana denial and board advantage piece, why else would I run it at all. dropping to 1of reduces consistency. consider that all decks play moxen, not all decks play creatures worth spending 6 to remove. I wont cut any other locks. I absolutely want to max out drawing chalice, crucible, smoky, resistor and welder. neither will I play only 2of nrod or uba.

in the board, I dropped fiery temper since I had to cut dup from main, and dup is better removal. also glacial chasm is very, very hard to abuse, and unplayable wo the hope of fbond. maze is not as powerful, but extremely cheaper. however maze requires more copies in the deck to be effective, further reducing room for fiery temper. I definitely am a big fan of F-temper, but it doesnt measure up to my other answers to creatures. ftemper is a card that requires 3-4 copies, so I can be assured a realistic chance of running into it when blindly milling w bazaars, esp multiple bazaars. the madness mechanic turns every bazaar draw into a real draw, wo uba. this is very powerful way to find answers to must-kill creatures. if you have room in your board for a lightning bolt type effect: temper is superior. and for those wondering about who deserves credit: Justin Droba suggested it to me when I complained about getting pwned by enemy heretics.
I ran Jesters cap main in my ancient UR-ubastax list, and Im a huge fan of the card, but ignored it ever since I switched to n-rod deck. This is mainly for Oath, but can blow out slaver as well. many control slaver lists only have 3 win conditions, and even if they luck one into hand, I can get yawgwill or sideboard cards. its a pre-emptive answer to heretic also.
depending on what I do w duplicant vs monkey in the main, I may cut either a sboard dup or jcap for maze#4. guaranteeing multiple mazes is huge bonus against oath or any fish/goblin/random aggro
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« Reply #194 on: January 25, 2006, 09:56:29 pm »

I think that's the right way to take the deck.  At any rate, it is certainly the build I fear most when playing Gifts.  An appropriately built Gifts, well piloted, can ignore way too many lock pieces then Rebuild.  Sphere is the best way to mess with that plan.

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« Reply #195 on: January 25, 2006, 10:55:30 pm »

vroman, good to see your new list.  I've been playing Stax almost exclusively the last month, and have the following compliment and complaint.

1) The deck is VERY good at Prison.  It packs 20+ lock cards that make your opponent do nothing, from turn 1.  This we already knew.
2) The deck is terrible at winning.  It's very good at not losing, but as we all know, not losing is not the same as winning.  Even if you have your opponent under 3-ball, waste-crucible, and Uba, he can always just topdeck rebuild and oops you lose.  Even in the best case, you're beating with a 1/1 and throwing a shock at his face every turn.  It takes forever to win, and in that time you can often just lose.  I don't know how to fix this problem...it's just a fundamental with prison decks, I suppose.  I'd reallly just like to include an efficient win condition that ends the game in a hurry (Karn, Sundering Titan, that kind of thing) that doesn't clog the deck and screw up everything.  Maybe I just want to have cake and eat it too, and that's not possible.
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« Reply #196 on: January 25, 2006, 11:45:20 pm »

I was also having that problem with the mono-red version. To help solve the problem, I tried adding in a single copy of either Titan or P-portal.

and @ the oath match-up

why not bring in more then 1 cap at the expense of the rods? Is it because its too expensive?
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« Reply #197 on: January 26, 2006, 12:54:52 pm »

2) The deck is terrible at winning.  It's very good at not losing, but as we all know, not losing is not the same as winning.  Even if you have your opponent under 3-ball, waste-crucible, and Uba, he can always just topdeck rebuild and oops you lose.  Even in the best case, you're beating with a 1/1 and throwing a shock at his face every turn.  It takes forever to win, and in that time you can often just lose.  I don't know how to fix this problem...it's just a fundamental with prison decks, I suppose.  I'd reallly just like to include an efficient win condition that ends the game in a hurry (Karn, Sundering Titan, that kind of thing) that doesn't clog the deck and screw up everything.  Maybe I just want to have cake and eat it too, and that's not possible.

The deck is so good at putting a person in a hole and keeping them there that it doesn't matter that you give them tons of turns to draw out of it. The fact is, if you've got 3sphere and waste recursion, that's a virtual lock and you can take your time killing them. 10 turns where they can't do anything is much, much better than 3 turns where they may be able to break out.
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« Reply #198 on: January 26, 2006, 02:46:58 pm »

A good vintage player will know when he/she is beat.  If Vroman got me in a lock, then I would most likely just scoop, because the chances of me drawing anything that can help me, I most likely can't cast anyway.  The only cards that can help you out of uba lock are cards like rebuild, or rack and ruin, the problem is, these won't help you, you still need to be able to stabilize that turn.  Once you are in a a stax lock it is nearly impossible to get out, the deck can win slowly if it wants too.  I have seen numerous games where Vroman's opponents scoop because they can't win and it is in there best interest to proceed to game two where they have a better chance of winning.  And if you are beating with a 1/1 and throwing a shock at his face every turn, then isn't that only 7 turns?  That isn't a problem especially when your opponent isn't doing anything.  This is also assuming that your opponent hasn't taken any damage from cards like force/fetches, or random beats from your shaman or duplicant.  That is one of the things I love about stax, it makes your opponent look like a helpless schoolgirl.

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« Reply #199 on: January 26, 2006, 03:29:40 pm »

This deck just draws redundant artifacts it can cast when uba mask is in play.  If you start adding 1 ofs like sundering titan or possessed portal or even karn alot of times, you will find yourself removing it with uba mask and having not enough mana to cast it.  Thats also the double edged sword with this deck, while you can drop 2-3 lock pieces turn 1-2, all you are drawing is lock piece over and over.  Your digging for an answer to something on the other side of the board, and most of the time you don't find it, you just find more lock pieces.  This is fine against decks like combo, where all you need to do is drop a chalice for 0 and they scoop, but this deck has serious problems vs. any mana drain deck.
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« Reply #200 on: January 26, 2006, 03:43:46 pm »

I agree with what you said to some extent, but you have to remember that a stax deck wins when it locks it's opponent from playing or doing anything.  Does a stax deck, which has a primary goal of locking it's opponent from playing anything, need an eloquent win condition?  I don't think it does.  But you are right when you say that mana drain decks can be a problem for stax, that is why Vroman hates control slaver.  Also Sphere of Resistance is a problem for mana drain decks, which is why Vroman decided to run them.

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« Reply #201 on: January 26, 2006, 04:31:50 pm »

2) The deck is terrible at winning.  It's very good at not losing, but as we all know, not losing is not the same as winning.  Even if you have your opponent under 3-ball, waste-crucible, and Uba, he can always just topdeck rebuild and oops you lose.  Even in the best case, you're beating with a 1/1 and throwing a shock at his face every turn.  It takes forever to win, and in that time you can often just lose.  I don't know how to fix this problem...it's just a fundamental with prison decks, I suppose.  I'd reallly just like to include an efficient win condition that ends the game in a hurry (Karn, Sundering Titan, that kind of thing) that doesn't clog the deck and screw up everything.  Maybe I just want to have cake and eat it too, and that's not possible.

The deck is so good at putting a person in a hole and keeping them there that it doesn't matter that you give them tons of turns to draw out of it. The fact is, if you've got 3sphere and waste recursion, that's a virtual lock and you can take your time killing them. 10 turns where they can't do anything is much, much better than 3 turns where they may be able to break out.

The only thing is if you lost game 1 you have to actually reduce their life total to 0 in 2 more games.  They can sit there and not concede game 2 and it will eat up a lot of clock.  For game 3 chances are the opponent (no matter how bad the actual match up is-say its GrimLong) will win before you.  You may be able to prevent them from winning quite easily-but you won't get the match win-and you won't always prevent them from winning.  I've found if Uba loses game 1 it is really hard for it to win the match.
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« Reply #202 on: January 26, 2006, 04:39:13 pm »

It's worth noting also, the new version w/spheres loses to both traditional monoRstax with Solemn/Wheel/Duplicant/Uba redundancy, and GRuba if gruba gets fastbond out (or cropper for strip will do it too).

TraditionalMonoRubastax is much better in the mirror, and gruba is favored, but not by much.  It could be close to a coinflip with gruba, but with old monoR, it's about 55-45, or maybe even 60-40.

With 5c, all forms of Ubastax has the advantage, so that's neglible, although the new version might have the most game.  (1st turn sphere on the play is huge against all forms of stax).

That being said, I've been playing with spheres for a while now, and am very happy.
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« Reply #203 on: January 26, 2006, 04:58:41 pm »

The beauty about ubastax is that when it locks an opponent, it can dig better than any other stax deck to find a way to win. 

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« Reply #204 on: January 26, 2006, 06:50:58 pm »

Uba stax does have a much better clock than what Kevin Cron's stax list ran. Remember, that deck ran 1 Gorilla shaman and 1 Karn, which turns into a wall of stone against Thrull tokens. There was also almost no draw in this deck and had to tutor for the kill if it didnt show up quickly (most of its tutors was killed by chalice @1 too.

Control slaver is a problem for this version of Uba stax, as it has always been for previous incarnations of Ubastax. But the spheres of resistance are great against any drain deck...they need more mana for mana drain and can subsequently do less with that mana. Rack and Ruin or Rebuild are delayed another turn for each SoR, so your locks are protected better. If anything this new version of uba stax should be better against drain decks than the old monoR list.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 06:58:58 pm by Polynomial P » Logged

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« Reply #205 on: January 26, 2006, 07:34:08 pm »

Is this build worse in the mirror than the old mono-r?

-1 Solemn
-1 Wheel
-1 Duplicant
-1 Uba
+4 Sphere

Solemn is great in the mirror, almost a sideboard card.  Duplicant is useable but not essential in game one (because the Heretics aren't in yet).  Uba Mask and Wheel of Fortune are somewhere on the scale between "useless" and "dangerous."

Sphere will be an opportunistic card in the mirror, played when you are a bit ahead to lock up that advantage, but that doesn't make it bad.  It is a cheap, situational permanent that can either hold off Smokestack for a turn or win a game when the ebb and flow of the battle ebbs or flows your way for a moment.  And, of course, it is awesome when played first turn.

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« Reply #206 on: January 26, 2006, 11:28:57 pm »

2) The deck is terrible at winning.  It's very good at not losing, but as we all know, not losing is not the same as winning.  Even if you have your opponent under 3-ball, waste-crucible, and Uba, he can always just topdeck rebuild and oops you lose.  Even in the best case, you're beating with a 1/1 and throwing a shock at his face every turn.  It takes forever to win, and in that time you can often just lose.  I don't know how to fix this problem...it's just a fundamental with prison decks, I suppose.  I'd reallly just like to include an efficient win condition that ends the game in a hurry (Karn, Sundering Titan, that kind of thing) that doesn't clog the deck and screw up everything.  Maybe I just want to have cake and eat it too, and that's not possible.

The deck is so good at putting a person in a hole and keeping them there that it doesn't matter that you give them tons of turns to draw out of it. The fact is, if you've got 3sphere and waste recursion, that's a virtual lock and you can take your time killing them. 10 turns where they can't do anything is much, much better than 3 turns where they may be able to break out.

The only thing is if you lost game 1 you have to actually reduce their life total to 0 in 2 more games.  They can sit there and not concede game 2 and it will eat up a lot of clock.  For game 3 chances are the opponent (no matter how bad the actual match up is-say its GrimLong) will win before you.  You may be able to prevent them from winning quite easily-but you won't get the match win-and you won't always prevent them from winning.  I've found if Uba loses game 1 it is really hard for it to win the match.

A competent Stax player is more than able to keep from drawing the match. I do agree that, when down a game, things get tight, but at the same time, playing at reasonable speed (and assuring that your opponent is playing at a similarly reasonable speed) will not cause that many draws. When your opponent is locked down and unable to make any plays, their turns are necessarily short. If they are mulling over tons of supposed decisions, you should call a judge. Any decent player is able to make a decision within the confines of a minute, especially when they are given few, if any, options. While locking them down doesn't beat them, it does shorten their turns significantly, giving you more turns to win.

If you're playing efficiently, you should be able to play 3 full games in under 50 minutes.
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« Reply #207 on: January 27, 2006, 01:54:49 am »

I really like the idea of trying to fit Sphere of Resistance into this deck; it's something that I've thought about doing for quite some time.  The only thing is I'm not sure that the deck really needs that card.  To fit it into the deck, you have to take out some utility.  The current changes I'm trying out are the following:  -1 Solemn Simulacrum, -1 Wheel of Fortune, -2 Gorilla Shaman; +4 Sphere of Resistance.  Yes, Gorilla Shaman is awesome, but I really don't like the idea of dropping Duplicants from the list for the reason of the Oath matchup and random aggro matchups.  Also, I don't like the idea of dropping the fourth Uba Mask, because of consistency issues:  First of all, as Vroman has said, consistency wins tournaments.  Second of all, you have almost no chance of getting Uba-locks unless you're already winning without 4 in the deck.  Thirdly, Uba Mask is so strong against control decks it's not even funny.  Lastly, Ubazaar advantage is such an insane card advantage engine that obviously becomes, what I believe to be, unoptimally less likely of being pulled with less than 4 Uba Masks.
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« Reply #208 on: January 27, 2006, 05:32:32 am »

The deck also becomes more focused on workshop initially, and enormous amounts more when coupled with spheres on the board.

Gorilla Shaman becomes better in this deck because of the ability to destroy opponent's moxes under spheres, rendering them more helpless.  Shaman is even more of a bomb.

So what becomes more important in the new build?  The spheres obviously, workshop/tolarian, gorilla shaman.  Uba lock becomes better because you don't have to weld out uba for another artifact as much (1x welder/1x uba) because they can't cast as much.

What becomes worse?  The mirror, and brokenness plays (early wheel).  Wheel has been broken for me in the past, but I do find it sitting in my hand, just chilling out more often than not, and with the addition of 4x sphere, it definitely gets taken out.

With the addition of sphere, it seems like Ubastax is trying to combat more of the field (save Oath), and weaken it's game versus the mirror.

2) The deck is terrible at winning.  It's very good at not losing, but as we all know, not losing is not the same as winning.  Even if you have your opponent under 3-ball, waste-crucible, and Uba, he can always just topdeck rebuild and oops you lose.

How is this true?  Unless he has about a million more mana and a way to abuse that mana (I.E., gifts or something that he's been holding pre-uba), he's still in a hole.  You're just going to replay everything and probably more next turn (as you were probably holding some moxes).

If he only has three-five lands, chances are he's not going to make a comeback at all.  Plus, we're not accounting for the fact that you might be holding a pyroblast, if this is game 2 or 3.

If he has five mana, and two cards in hand, and you suspect he's holding mana drain/gifts, you play everything and then you don't play tri-sphere (what he was saving up his mana drain for).  Chances are by the time you have 3-ball, waste-crucible, and uba out, you're gonna get a stax soon too, or welder, or bazaar, or any other mega-abuseable piece of your deck, and even if he topdecks rebuild, he's going to be in a worse condition after the rebuild resolves and he says go.

Overall, if you have all those locks out, he needs to have mana drain/gifts, as well as topdecking rebuild, and you without a pyroblast.  Also, if you haven't welded something yet, you can just change a big piece like uba for mana production (like vault in your yard) to power out more artifacts next turn.  You don't lose if he topdecks rebuild unless all these conditions occur, and only sometimes if all those conditions occur.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2006, 05:49:35 am by Evenpence » Logged

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« Reply #209 on: January 27, 2006, 01:35:27 pm »

I have tried adding Sphere of Resistance before to Uba Stax and a few issues always seemed to come up while playing. I found the spheres hurt my game plan quite often.

Stax uses them, but regular stax doesn't run Null Rod main. Casting locks becomes more difficult when they cost 4-5 mana and your deck only has 17 usable mana sources remaining. Your reliance on Workshop is increased. Opposing Wastelands become pretty devastating, especially with only 3 basics remaining. Uba Stax with Spheres is reminiscent of the old Welder MUD decks, but now, instead of Metalworkers, I have Null Rods  Sad

I'm sure Vroman will test this out thoroughly, and find out if the pros outweigh the cons, it seems like he always does (I knew you would drop that useless green splash). Besides, this deck has to stay Mono-Red, it's the only competitive deck I can play fully black-bordered   Wink

 
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