Uba Stax - pseudo primer

[Evenpence]

I'm sold on Jester's Cap.  It's great against a ton of decks that ubastax has problems with.

I'm thinking of going up to 2-3.  Null Rod shuts that plan down, sure, but activating a cap is game over for a few decks, and with 3 in the board, make it nearly impossible to stop us from getting 1/2.  Null Rod can be sacced to stax, welded out, etc etc.

I'm thinking about lowering the pyroblast count to 3 and going up to 3 Jester's Cap, so my sideboard would look like this:

3 Pyroblast
3 Viashino Heretic
3 Jester's Cap
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Duplicant
2 Maze of Ith

There's still work to be done, however.

[yespuhyren]

Realistically you would the have to side out all 3 null rods.  Now that we have the inclusion of resistors maindeck, it might not be as bad.  Before spheres were in the deck, I can tell you that siding out null rods for caps wasn't my favorite choice.  I'm still not 100% sold, and this is an issue that Diceman and I briefly talked about.

[Evenpence]

It just wins against Oath, however, and that's our worst matchup.  If I have 3 cards in the board to just dominate Oath, 2 to slow them down (maze) and 2 others I side in to wreck them as well (duplicant), I really don't have a horrible matchup against anyone anymore, and every game is very winnable.

Slaver is winnable if I can win the welder war.  4 B-ring provides that opportunity.  I've actually come to not even siding any caps in against Slaver, because there's so little one can side out in that match, especially with the new build.  SBing for Slaver is so hard for me.

Vroman, how do you side against Slaver?  I think we all could use your knowledge on this one.  It'd help me out alot, for sure.  It seems whenever I side in Pyroblast, all the other stuff I've got going for me just makes it suck.  I still do, as I think it's a huge mistake not to, but it has just been bad.

[GAUDARD]

Would anyone care to go into not only their sideboard but how they sideboard with thier board.

What to take out for what you are putting in in a matchup?

[vroman]

this is my current sideboard
4 mazith
4 fiery temper
3 visheretic
3 t crypt
1 dup

boarding for slaver is probably the most challenging of any matchup. everything in the maindeck is good against them. furthermore slaver has a wide variety of strategies that are hard to nail down. unlike say combo which is easily crushed by a single tactic (stopping mana accel via nrod/chalice@1), or oath which is entirely dependent on sending w huge flyers (stopped wholly by mazith/duplicant), slaver can execute its strategies through many avenues.
tormod destroys the yawgwill and tfk+welder strategies, but does nothing to stop simple tinker or drain fueled hardcast fatty, nor does it stop enemy welders from manipulating my locks. also t crypt runs into nrod, which never comes out against slaver. one point, if enemy is playing obsolete UR version of slaver sans yawgie, then dont bother bringing in tormod.
fiery temper efficiently takes out welder/shaman, and conditionaly can hit trike/pbus minus some counters; lastly if they board in heretic, its a must kill.
another possible include is heretics of our own, which Ive seen ppl use effectively against slaver, since heretic stops most of their win conditions, and they will not expect it, while having limited means to remove it: duplicant, which not all slaver builds run, and might board out/not board in v ubastax; or trike w full bullets (Ive definitely baited welders before to get pinged by their onbord trike so I can drop heretic when they only have 2 bullets left. 1/3 body is hawt); or lastly get slaver lock w/o having to wait a turn for 4 mana open. however heretic is inefficient at killing moxen/weld targets, and otherwise offers very little disruption against slaver's strategy. I would definitely board in 4xtempers and some number of tormod, and possibly a heretic or two.

boarding out is dificult and benefits from knowing enemy boarding strategy. this is a very tight match and any information you have helps. look at some typical slaver boards:

ugo rivard 1st place rochester 12-10
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blood Moon
2 Lava Dart
1 Pyroblast
3 Rack And Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm

ryan trepanier 8th place, same
2 Aether Spellbomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Duplicant
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Darkblast
3 Rack And Ruin
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Duress

jim erlinger 4th chicago 7-31
1 Sundering Titan
3 Arcane Laboratory
2 Echoing Truth
1 Pyroblast
3 Rack And Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroclasm

brad granberry 7th, same
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Echoing Truth
1 Lava Dart
3 Rack And Ruin
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Duress
2 Pyroclasm
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

looking at these boards, there is not an overabundance of dedicated welder kill, while the amount has risen between july and now. trepanier is the only one playing dblast, but supports it w just 2 underseas. double lava dart is actually scarier, since singleton dblast will generaly have to be tutored for. I know that erlinger and some slaver players are running darkblast main, w extra u-seas, or even a basic swamp. this is probably not widespread tech though, and ppl are reluctant to even board dblast. despite it being the most efficient welder kill ever, esp in the slaver mirror, where wasteland isnt a factor. none of these boards are playing enough lava darts to consistently draw into them, and if they use a tutor to find welder kill, then theyre not tutoring for yawg/tink. also no slaver boards are running blueblasts or fire/ice anymore, or any other potential lower-tier welder kill. although pyroclasm is prevalent among these boards, I doubt they are coming in against ubastax. if more ppl were maining/boarding multiple dblasts and shifted their manabase to support it, I would recomend boarding out welders to leave them w dead cards and a weaker manabase for no reason. however this is not necesary, as the only real welder kill is as always: triskelion. its not worth sacrificing welder to sidestep this minimal amount of hate. unless you know specificaly that your opponent is boarding in atleast 2 dblasts or 3 lavadarts or 4 generic 1for1 kills, or equivalent combinations: leave welders in.
on the other hand, 3 rackruins is remarkably consistent. your artifact locks are in much greater danger than your welders. noticably absent from these boards is any mass artifact bounce (ie hurkyl/rebuild). which I generally fear over destruction, since welder tricks arent an option, and for atleast 1 turn and possibly more depending on my current mana base, they have carte blanche to run their strategy, until I redeploy against a possibly fresh counter wall. nonetheless rack ruin sucks to face. if welders stay in, some locks have to go. in this matchup, uba is potentialy a liability if you lose welder war. uba obviously can fuck over slaver hardcore. 8 counterspells, brainstorms in non-combo, tfks and every other cards that will slip by based on overcost, or color screw, or chalice noncompliance. nonetheless handing enemy a lock is stupid. after board, I have to assume my welders will die. thus uba has to be expendable, w increased artifact kill, its best to spend less on locks that can be efficiently destroyed, and the risk of being out-weldered.
thats 3 board outs. the next decision is based on play/draw. if you are on the play game 2 (ouch), I would drop gorilla shaman. moxmonkey is an awesome card, esp since it can sit there and nullify welder by sniping cheap weld targets. however, in terms of early game strategy, moxmonkey is a poor turn 1 play. monkey is better on the draw, letting enemy deploy all their free mana, whether they use it or not, and then you drop monkey plus some free mana of your own and clear a big chunk of their board. if you play monkey first, they will be much more careful w moxen and use them only when necesary or just brainstorm them away. theres very few things you can afford to board out, so maximize your advantage based on whos going first.
if Im going 2nd, monkey is a good mop up card to fight against their brokeness. however, sphere of resistance loses a lot of its value the longer you wait to play it. resistor's benefit is equal to the number of spells they cast under it (or are prevented from playing due to cost increase). waiting a turn is enough to make a turn 2 resistor not worth the investment, esp since ubastax has so many 4 drops, that can end up stuck in your hand if you dont have a workshop. compare this to chalice, which is always a bomb against slaver if you can drop it @ 1, esp before they get welder.
depending on your resistor count, this strategy frees up to 5-7 slots based on play/draw. I plan to always bring in 4xtemper and 1xtormod, which covers the minimum 5 slots. another 2 slots on the draw allows 1 more tormod and a heretic or the full 3 tormods total. if you are on the play, or just want extra slots for max tormod + X heretics, then more cuts have to be made.
from the remaining list, there are few expendable cards. I hear ppl are cutting 1 or crucibles. I disagree w this. b-ring is the primary welder kill, and crucible is a major factor in fueling that card, via recursion and supporting bazaar, ie easier threshold, if you can dump lands wo fear of card loss. furthermore, crucible protects my own welders if enemy brings in darkblast, by keeping my wastelands on the table, and denying them black mana.
as discussed above, chalice is vital against slaver, play or draw, games 1 through 3. uncuttable.
even w uba cut, bazaar is still the primary draw engine of the deck, and remains abusable w welder, plus gives threshold and cycles for chaliced out cards. this deck always needs all its bazaars.
smokestack is obviously the crux of the deck and must stay. if resistor is already cut, or included due to being on the play, then the only thing left is duplicant. dup is inneficent against slaver bc the targets are 1/6th the cost, or do not let you keep the dup (ie 0/0 pbus dup, or dup a trike who pings your guy)

final anti-slaver board decisions in order of priority:
-3 uba
-2 monkey/3 to 4 resistor
-2 duplicant

+4 temper
+1-2 tcrypt
+1-2 heretic
+1 tcrypt#3

[Evenpence]

That's alot of help for me, thanks Vroman.

Crypts were always suboptimal in my games against Slaver, but it shouldn't be so logically.  Heretic has been amazing, however, because once he's out, Slaver doesn't have any real way to get rid of him outside of trike, which can be nullified (get it?).

That really does help me out with the Slaver matchup.

Vroman, let me know how dropping P-blast goes for you.  Right now, it's going fantastic for me.  I might actually go back to Grubastax with p-blast out of the sideboard.  It's not likely, as I'd have to drop spheres, but it's a consideration I'm thinking about doing, because while Grubastax was too dependant on green mana, MegaLockUbaStax (Can we abbreiviate it MLUS, MLUstax, or MLUbastax? for now?) is too dependant upon workshop.

I miss crop rotation.

I'll probably playtest Gruba for a while, and decide to go back to MLUstax.  The spheres are just so key in the combo matchup.  I don't think (barring the worst drawing ever) we can lose the combo matchup now.  /exaggeration

[yespuhyren]

My board is very similar to yours, except +1 duplicant -1 maze.  I cut the REB's a while back, as they just didn't work with chalice @1 and uba.

[Komatteru]

I have also found Pyroblast to be quite subpar.  With SoR in the deck now, Pyroblast is really fucking awful because it requires you to keep two mana back half the time.  When you have no artifact mana because of Null Rod and/or Chalice and you want to play lock components and use Wasteland, casting Pyroblast is like impossible.  I would rather use Wasteland than keep it untapped along with a Mountain so I might be able to counter something.  If I just use Wasteland, my opponent won't be able to even play the problematic spell in the first place.

[Polynomial P]

Pyroblast will not be missed.

I am trying this board:

3 Maze
2 Duplicant
4 Temper
2 T-crypt
1 SOR
3 Heretic

I decided to put the 4th sphere in the board as it works well with the rest of the deck (as opposed to Crypt#3 or J-cap) and is good against combo and control.

[Evenpence]

MLU (Mega Lock Ubastax)

21 LANDS
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Wasteland
1 Strip mine
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain

9 ARTIFACT ACCELERANTS
4 Lotus/Ring/Vault/Crypt
5 Moxen

8 CREATURES
4 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Duplicant

22 ARTIFACT LOCKS
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Uba Mask
3 Null Rod
3 Sphere of Reistance
1 Trinisphere

SIDEBOARD OPTIONS:
Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast
Fiery Temper / Lightning Bolt
Tormod's Crypt
Viashino Heretic
Maze of Ith
Lava Dart
Duplicant (in addition to the ones maindecked)
Sphere of Resistence (the 4th) (polynomial P)
Glacial Chasm (nataz)
Jester's Cap (vroman's original suggestion, which I've found to be very helpful in my Oath-heavy meta)
Shattering Spree (no one's mentioned it yet, but it's an option)

OTHER OPTIONS FOR MAINDECK:
Solemn Simulacrum (vroman's original list, ubastax v.1.0)
Sundering Titan (yespuhyren)
Glacial Chasm (nataz)
Grim Monolith (someone in norcal who got 3rd)
Lotus Petal (same guy in norcal who got 3rd - runs a ton of acceleration)
Karn / Triskelion (Vroman's super elderly list, unknown, ancient, and obsolete)

//

MLUbastax right now has more consistency than any deck in Vintage, bar none.
Every singleton in the deck is restricted.
The only 2-of's in the deck are conditional creatures which are sided out or in:
Gorilla Shaman
Duplicant
The only 3-of's in the deck are locks which are better at the 3 slot for redundancy problems:
Uba Mask
Null Rod
Sphere of Resistance
All other cards are 4-of's.  Having seven cards being 4-of's creates wonderful, consistent, predictable opening hands.

MLUbastax also has more sideboard versatility than any deck in Vintage, bar none.

MLU can be metagamed for:
Aggro (Maze of Ith, Fiery Temper, Duplicant, consider Karn/Triskelion)
Blue Based Control (4th Sphere, Pyroblast)
Oath (Jester's Cap, Duplicant, even Fiery Temper to kill off 1/1's)
Stax (Fiery Temper, Viashino Heretic)

My sideboard is as follows:

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Maze of Ith
2 Duplicant
3 Viashino Heretic
3 Fiery Temper
3 Jester's Cap

I'm in a very Oath-heavy meta, which is the reason for the three caps.  They probably won't be going to Richmond with me.

[PucktheCat]

The only 3-of's in the deck are locks which are better at the 3 slot for redundancy problems:
...
Sphere of Resistance

I don't think Sphere fits this description.  Multiple Spheres can be annoying for Uba but is usually devestating for your opponent.  The only reason Sphere isn't a 4-of is because, as you say, the numbers for every other card in the deck is just correct, and something has to go.  Sphere is just the 61st card.

[yespuhyren]

As good as the 2x gorilla shaman are in the deck, has anyone else had some issues with them and wished that they were something else?

Personally, as great as they are, I'm going to test

-2 Shaman
+1 Resistor
+1 Uba

The only time I've really liked my shaman is if I already have a welder in play.  Without the welder, and without my opponent dropping 2/3 moxes and me having 2/3 mana, he's been doing little but attacking for me. 

[sean1i0]

That is actually the configuration that I'm trying right now.  Now, don't get me wrong, I am by no means convinced that this is the right move to make; it's more that the power of having more consistent chances for an uba lock/ubazaar brokeness plus the ability to drop more consistent turn 1 SoRs (which btw hurt everything from control to combo to aggro) made me decide that it would be nearly a crime for me to not even give this setup a try.  Since I've had next to no time lately to really play magic though, I've yet to come to a conclusion about this matter.

[yespuhyren]

The testing through today has me still undecided.  When I started testing resistors out a few months ago, it was always 3, and that number worked well for me.  I'm not sure about 4.  I do like playing with 4 ubas though, and am not sure what I plan to do about it.  I might even add in solemns again, as the mana fetching helps speed up the deck to play around your own resistors.

[49 Cents]

You realize that by doing so your clock becomes even slower? If you lose game 1/2, you it's going to be extremely difficult winning game 3 before time is called. Also, you now have only 4 outs against Pithing Needle (Welders, if that isn't called already, and no, I'm not calling Smokestack).As you said, the 4th Uba doesn't look good. I would much rather have a Monkey in that slot.

[Evenpence]

Monkey has been unbelievably huge for me in the past.

Although cutting the monkies give us an INSANE chalice at 1, that's not enough reason for me to kill him when he takes out permanents for Stax or key artifacts with Welder.

I would NEVER go below 2, personally.  I occasionally wish I had a 3rd.


As for the 4th Resistor comment:  I've had problems with 4, but 3 seems to run very smoothly.

Uba no. 4 is actually the 61st card.

[vroman]

I play moxmonkey bc I cant always go first. g-shaman's primary purpose is a mop up card when on the draw, to eliminate enemy's turn 1 brokeness.

the best defense against pithing needle is chalice@1.

to fit in resistor#4, I would cut smoky#4. this reduces reliance on workshop, and improves early game.
Im also considering cutting duplicant#2 for 1 mazith main, to improve oath/gifts game 1. dup and maze accomplish nearly the same result w a cost difference of 6 in favor of maze.

[nataz]

the best defense against pithing needle is chalice@1.

I'm currently testing a shattering spree MD in the monkey slot.

While there are lots of other things I'd like to see there, one of the more popular Gifts list in NE is running 3 MD pithing needles which is a bad time unless you can deal with them, so whatever I try replaceing them with has to cover my ass v. the needle.

The other reason to have them in is to have some MD hate v. the WS mirror (OMG-zor) which is becoming more frequent in NE. Monkey is nice, but spree I think is better in the mirror.

to fit in resistor#4, I would cut smoky#4. this reduces reliance on workshop, and improves early game.

I've been eyeing that 4th smokey for a while now, but I still feel too newbish with WS to cut it. Ever since I was smacked down for not auto-playing a smokestax turn 1 in the thread I'm hesitant to cut THE iconic lock peice of the deck. It's not like you never want to see one early b/c 4 mana is pretty easy to get + late game its nice to have 4 so that you can draw into it. 

I've been testing on and off now with 3 SOR md, and a 4th for the Control match-up in the SB. Somthing I have been wondering is how SOR and Trini work in the deck. I know Trini is all broke and what-not, but is it fair to say that the longer you wait, the less impact on the board it will have?

with 2cc items, SOR and trini are equal. With less then 0-1cc trini is obviously better, but 3+ cc SOR is better. Rebuild, Rack and Ruin, Gifts and Hertic all cost at least three anyways, and in those cases it would obviously better to just have them cost 4 with an SOR out.

Takeing that a step further, considering that the deck has limited tutor power, how good is the random Trini as a 1-of vs. the added consistancy of having the forth SOR?

Our main card selection pathway (bazaar) works a lot better with 4 -ofs because we can a) find them easier, and b) dump excess peices. I never *dig* looking for a trini, but I do dig for the 4x's (WS, Crucible, Smokey, Welder, etc.) all the time.

So basicly, what I am saying is that I'm actualy thinking of cutting the Trini for the 4th SOR in the deck pushing consistancy over brokeness. 

[Evenpence]

Trinisphere has won me more games than I'd like to say it has.  Although sphere is good, it's no where near as broken as 1st turn Trinisphere.  Trinisphere is one of those cards where if you're not playing it, you're not playing a workshop deck.

Personally, I don't like the 4th sphere.  It mucks things up too much, and is certainly not better than Trinisphere first turn.

I love Monkey with an utter passion.  As Vroman's said, Monkey mops up going second like nothing else.

I was playing on MWS, losing the die roll.  All I know is I'm playing against Gifts or possibly Slaver because he goes:  Delta, Ruby, Jet, Sapphire, go.

I look down at my hand in disbelief because I'm holding:  Mana Crypt, Mox Ruby, Mox Emerald, Gorilla Shaman, Sol Ring, Workshop, Smokestack.

GG.

[Polynomial P]

Turn 1 trini > Turn 1 SOR. If you can resolve that trinisphere it gives you a minimum of 2 turns to do whatever you want and to lock them out completely (find smokestack, crucible+waste/strip). If you resolve a turn 1 sphere they can play a mox or whatnot and pay 1 for a force. The random wins created for you by trinisphere more than offset the late game ineffectiveness of trinisphere.

[nataz]

Trinisphere has won me more games than I'd like to say it has.  Although sphere is good, it's no where near as broken as 1st turn Trinisphere.  Trinisphere is one of those cards where if you're not playing it, you're not playing a workshop deck.

Obviously a first turn Trini is better then a first turn SOR, but then you are missing the point.

The question is:

Is the added reliability of getting a Turn 1/2 SOR with the addition of a 4th SOR
better then the less likely, but more powerful scenario
where you are able to cast a Trini Turn  on the 1/2 turn?

edit:
while I'm not sure I agree right now, PolyP did answer the question.

[PucktheCat]

Trinisphere is nuts because it doesn't affect many of your cards.  Sphere affects Rebuild and Rack and Ruin, but Trinisphere hoses moxes and cheap mana fixers (Brainstorm, etc) hard and barely slows you down.

I would be pretty surprised if the this deck settled at 3x Smokestack - it seems like you will become really vulnerable to creature and basic lands.  I have been wrong before though, and I know Vroman will test it thoroughly and get the answer.

[KrA0nS]

Is there any chance that Bazarless ST4KZ is still viable?  I'm just wondering because I've heard it's been taken over by Bazaar Stacks and I'm no in the $$ position to get a Bazaar list around, and if said ST4KZ is still viable, does anyone have an updated list so I can see what they are running now-a-days.

Decklist requests are against the rules.  TMD has a search function for a reason.
-Klep

[Juggernaut GO]

Here's a 5c stax deck that does not lose to the mirror, or uba:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
3 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Pithing Needle
4 Smokestack
1 Sol Ring
3 Sphere Of Resistance
3 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere

Artifact Creatures
1 Duplicant
1 triskelion
1 sundering titan
1 karn silver golem

Creatures
3 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman

Enchantments
1 Seal Of Cleansing

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
1 Balance
1 tinker
1 demonic tutor

Lands
1 City Of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Library Of Alexandria
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
3 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Ray Of Revelation
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 red elemental blast
2 tormod's crypt


This is similar to what I played at waterbury to 17th place finish, with the bad cards taken out and tinker and some targets actually in the deck.

[pyr0ma5ta]

I'm pretty sure that cutting 3-ball for Resistor is incorrect.  3-ball is just about the best card in the deck, after Smokestack, which locks up games and cleans up problem permanents before they become problems.  I hate to disagree with vroman on this, but Smoky #4 is always going to be better than resistor.

Also, Gorilla is the perfect compliment to all your resistors and various lock components.  Your opponent gets to pay 1 or 3 for what is effectively a lotus petal.  That's pretty good.  Also, as noted already, there are something like 8 creatures in the deck that can attack, and Gorilla is 2 of them.  Dup is 2 more, and he's getting cut for Maze Ith.  You don't want to go down to 4 welders and Barb Ring recursion as the win, do you?

[Evenpence]

Nataz:

Sorry if I wasn't being logically argumentative, but I'm just going to repeat what Poly said.  1st turn trinisphere is well worth cutting a sphere, because it provides absolutely no dyssynergy in the deck.  The spheres, however, especially at multiples, DO have dissynergy with null rod (as powering out things becomes harder, especially welders).

Travis (JuggGo):

That 5c list pretty much loses to Chalice at 1.  //exaggeration.

I have a hard time believing that your decklist doesn't just lose to Uba, especially when Uba is on the play.  I can Uba lock you pretty easily, and chalice at 1 hurts you really, really badly.  I side out Uba Masks for Heretics and other goodies while you have hardly anything to bring in against me as well.

I am really biased on this issue, but Pithing Needle sucks.  I have never lost a game due to Pithing Needle.  Ubastax is the deck perhaps most harmed by Pithing Needle, and I can still win through it quite easily.  Instead of running shaman/welder kill, you instead run proactive elements which can be taken care of via shaman w/3 mana or a ramped Smokestack.  Moreover, Pithing Needle can't stop the card that really wins me the game against you:  Crucible.

Vroman's said it, and it's very important to know:  Crucible is by far the most important card in the mirror.

I have 4.  You have 3.

I have stuff that kills crucibles in my sideboard.  (Heretics, shattering sprees if I add them), etc.  I have dedicated Welder kill that's not 1cc (Fiery Temper, B-ring recursion).  You don't.  Null Rod shuts down your welder kill, and alot of your color sources.

I will say that I like your list, alot.  Don't get me wrong, I think it's amazing that you got 17th at Waterbury, and I chock that up not only to your great skill, but also your adeptness at deckbuilding.  I think it's a great 5c List, and different from the norm (ChangStax).

However, I do think it loses more often than not to Ubastax.  I think it might be better in the 5c Mirror, however, due to increased amounts of diverse ability fatties, seal of cleansing MD, and Enlightened Tutor.  Great job on the build and I look forward to playing you with it.  Maybe we could set up some way of getting on MWS and playing a match or two?

Thanks for your comments, by the way, and for the decklist.

[Juggernaut GO]

I have lost only 1 GAME ever to uba stax because of a mana crypt roll when opponent was locked out of the game, I have not lost a 5c stax mirror match to date.  Pithing needle is the greatest addition to the deck simply because it shuts off uba's entire deck engine.  Without using bazaar, uba stax can not win.  You can drop chalice for 1 all day, but while your doing that instead of first turn crucible or stack, I am laying turn 1 tangle wire/crucible/stack and already locking you out of the game. 

Chalices are too easy to play around, sure sometimes you get lucky and catch your opponent with 3 moxes in his opening hand when your on the play, but its few and far between.

[Evenpence]

Update:

After very VERY fun matches with Travis (JuggernautGo) over MWS, the results are two match wins in my favor, 2-0, and 2-1.  I won the die roll both matchups.  Pithing Needle, as I predicted, was not a factor at all, except in the 3rd game of the 2nd match (our last game) where a 1st turn Needle by Travis (naming Bazaar) delayed me as I drew into two straight Bazaars.

The game I lost was determined by winning the welder war, which Travis did.  Travis killed my welder (we each had one and were in a standstill for quite some time) when he drew enough cards, demoniced (I believe) for a duplicant, and welded in the duplicant for my welder.  I had barbarian threshold in two turns, and didn't even activate my welder (there were no cards in my graveyard, and there was no board advantage to be gained by welding his stuff out either).

I started towards b-ring threshold, when Travis discarded a Sundering Titan via 8-card rule, and proceeded to womp up after I b-ringed his welder.

I was down to 17, Travis had a Titan and 1/1 Duplicant.

All I needed was to topdeck a Duplicant to seal the deal (neither of us had welders, I had stax/crucible/null rod/other goodies, a ton of artifacts and only two lands:  Academy/Bazaar).  I had exactly seven artifacts (he had a sphere of resistance), but didn't topdeck the Duplicant, even with the aid of Bazaar.

To be completely fair, I had Chalice for 1 in (I think) every single game, and many of them, including the very first game, were on the turn 1 play.  Moreover, I had absolutely broken opening hands in three of the games (one was absolutely sick - crucible/stax/chalice/chalice/workshop/mox ruby/mana crypt, I think).  And I kept a very subpar hand in one of the games I won.  I mulliganed twice, I believe, both into absolute brokenness.

Travis, however, had hands FULL of 1cc cards.  At one point, six out of the seven cards in his hand were 1cc cards.

He was a great opponent, extremely fun to play, and very gentleman-like, and I'm happy to see the community so willing to playtest.  I also told Travis that I wouldn't post on TMD about our matches, but he told me I should.  Very generous of him.

Thanks again, Travis.

EDIT:  Also, Heretic was unbelievably huge in both matches, as he sealed a game in each of the matches.  Fiery Temper, however, did nothing.

[heiner]

This discussion is getting ridiculous in a way. Basically people are suggesting to cut 3sphere in favor of the 4th sphere. This is just plain bad as 3sphere is simply a better version of sphere (therefore restricted).

The people's argument is that playing 4 spheres improves consistency compared to the 3/1 configuration. And that consistency may be more important than brokeness. I think people are not understanding what consistency means.

Consistency is the RESULT of good deck building and NOT the way to build good decks.

Playing 4ofs instead of many 1ofs means that one card has been proven to be (slightly) better than the other ones. Therefore it is used in favor of the other ones. A dec that sports many 1ofs just indicates that there is still room for improvement because there ARE some cards which are better than the other cards.

A dec should always contain the most broken (restricted) cards that FIT into a dec and then be filled up with the next best non restricted 4ofs.

Cutting brokeness for consistency is like erasing the six on a six-sided dice replacing it with a five. Sure you have increased the chance to roll a five, but i rather have the chance to roll a six which is even higher.


The only argument which should be able to replace 3sphere in favor of sphere is evaluating the cards against each other and deciding which one is better. I dont think I have to elaborate on this comparison too much, right?


@JuggernautGo: I dont see why your list should trump UBAstax. Tangle wire is just plain inferior compared to CotV (they suck especially agains stax and against pretty much everything else too). Chalice hoses your card manipulation/draw/search engine (tutors) while not affecting UBA's (bazaars). You play one less crucible which means the chance is actually higher for the UBA player to draw into smoky/crucible.  MWS testing results should be generally taken with caution as the overall player level is incredibly bad.

[nataz]

Another thing I have been thinking about is upping the SOR count, dropping the Null Rods, and adding something else in their place. SOR is such a wreaking ball vs. Blue based control decks, I wonder if we can drop some of the Null Rods (also redic in the BBC match-ups) in favor of shoreing up the anti-aggro/anti oaths slot or maybe adding in something like Tinker and the 7/10 monster.

Also, just out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried out a single ancient tomb in any of then non-mono red versions of the deck?

oh, and
*sigh*

Basically people are suggesting to cut 3sphere in favor of the 4th sphere. This is just plain bad as 3sphere is simply a better version of sphere (therefore restricted).

Not people, as far as I can tell it is just me. And no, 3sphere is *NOT* just a better version of SOR, they are in fact compleatly different beasts that play different functions in the deck. It's not my fault that you can't tell the difference.

And, your consistancy argument is absurd. By your logic, Mono-red ubastax shouldn't even exist because it is a deck that thrives on 4-of's, and consistant hands at the expense of really broken plays. You run no tutors, no Tinker, no will, no recall, timwalk, fastbond, or crop rotation, all of which seem like useful additions a prison deck. You try and get around that by qualifiying your statement with the idea of "FIT", which is about as subjective as you can get. Why does SOR "fit", but not tinker. Why does the 4th Crucible "fit", but not Will in a deck with Bazaar and fast mana?       

Consistency is the RESULT of good deck building and NOT the way to build good decks.
Playing 4ofs instead of many 1ofs means that one card has been proven to be (slightly) better than the other ones. Therefore it is used in favor of the other ones. A dec that sports many 1ofs just indicates that there is still room for improvement because there ARE some cards which are better than the other cards.

A dec should always contain the most broken (restricted) cards that FIT into a dec and then be filled up with the next best non restricted 4ofs.

Cutting brokeness for consistency is like erasing the six on a six-sided dice replacing it with a five. Sure you have increased the chance to roll a five, but i rather have the chance to roll a six which is even higher.

My argument is not that Trini isn't broke when played first turn, but rather that after the second turn, Trini is actualy often times *worse* then SOR. How often do you expect to play Trini w/in the first 3 turns with zero tutors, no tinker, and no draw besides Bazaar. Sure, Trini is better against artifact mana, but mono-red UbaStax runs 4 Chliace of the Void and 3 Null Rods. Trini is also better against 1cc cards, but SOR is at least as good vs. 2cc cards, and better against at anything above that. Being really good on the first turn is *not* enough for auto-inclusion if the card you are talking about is restricted.

And btw, the really good first turn play that everyone talks about w/ WS-> Trini turn one is pwnd by about 2/3's of the played decks right now when they go wasteland your WS, -> pass. 

The best argument for Trini is that it affects your game plan the least because most your your stuff costs more then 3 mana, i.e, really good synergy with workshop. Puck and Even at least understand that, and I'm glad they brought it up. Other then that, the only thing ridiculous is you, and your understanding of SOR and Trini.