(Article and updated Primer) How to play control slaver now.

[winnie]

Hi,

you only run one Gift. Is it enough ? This card is really savage. I would like to run at least two of them.
What do you think about lotus petal in this deck ? It ease the tendrill kill, it's a first turn 2 U open for drain...
Is imperial seal so good main ? You could put it in the side, for one more gift or recoup main.

thx for this great list,

winnie.

[Dozer]

you only run one Gift. Is it enough ? This card is really savage. I would like to run at least two of them.

This is not a Gifts based deck. As far as I see it, Gifts Ungiven functions as a powerful draw spell you can tutor for in the right situation, but nothing that you need to execute your game-plan. It enables the Will-Kill, and is generally strong, but it is not the card that you want to go for at all times.

That being said, I feel that Gifts and Slaver lists are coming closer and closer together. The major diffference is, apart from Welder vs Merchant Scroll, the artifact suite and the Gorilla Shaman. Apart from that, the decks work and function along very much the same structure. Looked at from a fresh perspective, one could say that both decks are Will-combo decks that have a different secondary win set-up (Gifts + Tinker/DSC for one deck, Welder + Slaver for the other). Even the sideboards start looking eerily similar.

What I have been wondering about in this particular list is the Mind's Eye. It is a very strong card, but I wonder if there is a case where you really want to weld in Mind's Eye instead of Mindslaver. What are the situations where Mind's Eye is better than Mindslaver? Going for a blind Slaving should yield at least as much advantage as Mind's Eye does, and the later the game goes, the better Slaver becomes and Mind's Eye gets worse. Eye also seems like a wasted slot against Stax, since the main enablers are opponent's Brainstorms.
I agree that Mind's Eye is strong -- I just wonder if it is stronger than Mindslaver.

/edit: I'd also like to hear why Mind's Eye is better than Sundering Titan, which wrecks control decks (and Fish) just as badly as Mind's Eye, but faster.

Dozer

[Metman]

I have been testing the Mind's Eye in place of the second Mindslaver.  I also run a Trike and Pentavus main.  I have found that 4 big artifacts is the right number game one.  In the SB I run a Jester's Cap, Sundering Titan, and Platinum Angel for specific match ups.  To get back to the Mind's Eye discussion, I have found it very strong in the control matches and obviously weak in the aggro matches.  What I have been wrestling with is, is it better than Mindslaver?  What I've noticed is that my answer is, "sometimes yes, sometimes no."  I run Vamp main so having the extra tutor card promotes diversity compared to consistancy.  One great advantage Mind's Eye has over Mindslaver is that once it comes out it's a house until the opponent can deal with it.  Slaver is great but it needs to be welded to really lock the game down; we know that some decks can recover from a single Mindslaver turn.  This is especially evident against Dragon, which my meta seems to be filled with.  The Mind's Eye has been especially welcome against Dragon.

I can see the arguments for cutting the Welder count to three but I have a hard time doing so.  Just like all of us I hate to see a pair of Welders in my opening hand but with Darkblast, Trikes, Lava Dart, Pyroclasm, and Fire/Ice run in so many decks I can't afford to have my Welders in the grave without another in my hand. 

My train of thought is to diversify the artifacts in Slaver and consider playing Vamp/Seal/Tutor to find the specific artifacts when you need it.  I also think that a few spots in the sideboard should be devoted to a couple big artifacts to side in after game one.  They are easy to side in and it's obvious what to side out if you have dead artifacts in the first game. 

[MoxMonkey]

Minds Eye is not in place of the second slaver though.  Minds Eye is our 4th big artifact.  Gifts is our "5th" being the second Slaver.

As Force said before in a control matchup if you draw 2 welders during turn 1-4 you lose the game and the same goes for a combo matchup.  I have always sideboarded out a welder cause you dont need the 4 half the time.  I can see why you dont want to but you'll like only having 3.

I have a DSC in my board and he rolls aggro.  I dont see a reason to put any more than 1 or 2 Big artifacts SB it kills your SB.

Minds Eye lets you gain Board and hand advantage something Titan doesn't do.  I lost At Waterbury when I tinkered for Titan and he went Tinker for DSC.  Minds Eye in play helps you gain back some advantage.  Even when its just LOA since tappign emerald when he draws for the draw step puts you ahead really fast.

Titan is a Metagame call and he has been on and off in my SB and at times main when I think he can pull his weight.  I do not think he is needed but he might be ok if your metagames right for him.

Gifts plays to me a lot different to me than this new build but Ill be testing somemore and nice job with the build Force.

[Liam-K]

I really like your new list FFY.  It eases a lot of concerns I've had about the Slaver plan, largely centered around how clunky it used to feel when your opponent was playing draw-go with you.  I love how aggressive your list looks just reading it.

I admit I am also nervous of the low welder count.  Drawing a second welder is a bad thing unless your first one is dead.  But the wish for tendrils and just laugh option does make that less of a concern.  This list doesn't look like it really cares about having a welder down unless it wants to use it to win anyway so spot removal probably isn't the worst thing that can happen.

I'm not convinced about mind's eye to be honest.  I know it can be a wrecking ball, but I feel like it may come out just too slow in the end.  Cards are great but tinkering for cards feels circular.

[cryolyte]

I think this is a very fun to play build, but I do have a couple of problems with it. What do you do against stax? I am very unlucky at dice rolls, and I'm always staring down a chalice for 0 on the draw. A couple of turns later, seemingly without fail, I will see a chalice for two in an attempt by said stax player to shut off mana drain. While playing your older lists, I put a rack and ruin maindeck along with an echoing truth and seemed to hold my own. This build affords me no such option. What are the two weakest cards, do you think? Since my metagame is half stax, I think I should move the Mind's Eye to the sideboard (you are right though, it is very good in control matches, gifts uncluded), but what big artifact would you replace it with in a predominantly stax meta?

Still learning here.....

cryolyte

[MoxMonkey]

Stax is afraid of a hand full of cards we can run mainboard.  Pentavus, Crucible of Worlds, Goblin welders and Gorilla Shamans.  if my Metagame was half stax I would run 4 Welders 2 Shamans 1 Crucible and 1 Pentavus.  That should be enough to wreck any stax player combined with Drains and Forces.  If your afraid of Chalice for 0 then make sure your running 1-2 Citadels Sol Ring Mana Vault and you should be fine.  I have never found a really big problem with the Stax matchup but ive played it alot.  I would take a look at the SCG How to play Control Slaver now list and see what you can work on from there.

[marcb]

This is my first post ever, so go easy on me. i just wanted to ask an important question.  Why isn't slaver played anymore? It used to be top 8 at most tournaments and then Gifts came around and suddenly no one was playing CS anymore. Is this because Gifts is better than CS at playing against other decks like stax, aggro, oath, fish, combo, etc. or is it that they are about equal at playing these other decks, but Gifts has the advantage of being a better control deck and so wins the match of CS vs Gifts?  I was under the impression that the latter was the case. Therefore, it would make more sense to me to build a CS variant that tried to steal back the inevitability taken from it by Gifts, not to become a fast deck that might beat aggro and fish more often then it already does.  This current list adds extra draw cards (Imp Seal, Vamp Tutor, Gifts) at the cost of FoF, so its not really netting more cards than older CS builds, so the inevitability isn't greatly improved.  Also, the mana base seems a bit weaker with black and red as primary colors one would like early on. We have to decide to fetch for an USea or Volcanic.   What about taking this current build and trying the following
-1 Imp Seal
-1 Vamp Tutor
-1 Gifts
-1 Burning Wish
+2 Mana Leak
+1 FoF
+1 Tormod's Crypt.
+ adjust mana base

  Now the deck has more counters than Gifts.  It has less draw cards, (but perhaps Mind's Eye can make up for the 2 Gifts + 2 Scrolls) and it has a maindeck Crypt with the added bonus of a better mana base.  Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Marc

[Smmenen]

I was the one who told you that I would focus this around Will.

I also think you should have two Gifts.  Imperial Seal is good. 

[Juggernaut GO]

now brian just needs to come to waterbury 8 to get a playmat with mind's eye on it.   your welcome.

[Zomar]

This was close enough to a flame to get you a verbal warning. Don't spam the boards, no matter how funny you think it is.

-Jacob

[MoxMonkey]

Re Zomar: And when you know how a Control deck works you'll be able to talk shit too.  The extra tutors find Tinker and Ancestral Faster. 
Re: JuggernautGo:  Also I will be at Watebury agian and I will be walking away with one of those Savage Minds Eye Playmats to go with my own savage Minds eye. 
Re: Smmenen The deck doesn't want 2 Gifts and if you have 2 Gifts then go look at Brassmans list and run that cause its much better at abusing them than this. 
In general:  Burning Wish is very good because it allows you to Cast Yawg Will and End the game out right.  being able to go ahead on Card advantage and set a nice board is cool but ending the game is much better.  This build is very strong and will be seeing play. 
Re: Marc On the Why isn't Slaver seeing play because its much easyer to just cast a Gifts and get recoup Will 2 other cards.  Tinker for DSC and win after that.  Slaver being played right needs some tech and playskill behind it.  Thats the main reason its not seeing much play.
Also the mana base is fine it has 4 fetch and 3 Basic Islands.  Getting the early colors shouldn't be that bad since vs Stax you get black to tutor for something that helps you outright.  having the land get wasted shouldn't be an issue if your setting it up.  Also Crucible of Worlds can be added if your afraid of Wastelands.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Good list Demars, it's pretty much what I expected after our talk. I am running a slightly different deck. I wasn't too impressed with the Mind's Eye in the deck, so I cut it for  Sensei's Divining Top. You wouldn't believe how big of a difference it makes! It makes thirsts AWESOME all the time, makes random welders useful, and makes imperial seal ABSOLUTELY SAVAGE! One thing you might want to consider playing in the board is a personal tutor, purely as a way to get tinker/will.

I personally think it's a mistake to not run 4 REBs, but thats because I'm biased towards Gifts.

Looks like we've finally come to a list we both agree on!

-Bob

[Moxlotus]

I wasn't too impressed with the Mind's Eye in the deck, so I cut it for  Sensei's Divining Top

I am trying to put Top into every single new deck I make.  That card is really really good.  It's worked in aggro, it's worked in Oath, I'm currently trying it out in combo, and I see no reason why it would be bad in control.  I really think Top is one of the big sleeper cards from recent sets.

[forests failed you]

I don't really see a need for a second Gifts Ungiven in this deck.  So far as I am concerned Gifts performs two primary functions.  The first one is when it is cast before a Yawgmoth's Will and can do two things.  First, it can fetch the tutors that you need to cast Will plus tutor up something else broken that you will want to replay durning the Will.  Lotus, Walk, Academy. r secondly if you have the Will in hand already you can Gifts for a bunch of cards that will make the Will lethal with Burning wish. 

The other important role that Gifts plays in this deck is that after a Yawgmoth's Will where you have done a lot of broken Mana Production and played a Welder I like to EOT mystical, Vamp et cetera for Gifts and then untap into a Timewalk turn and Slaver lock by Giftsing for Pentavus and Slaver.

As for the Stax match up it should be extremely good.  You have to remember that you have three welders and two shamans in the maindeck, and those are as good as sideboard cards.  Not to mention the fact that you have Force, Drain, and Tinker in your deck to seriously disrupt their gameplan. 

I agree that Mind's Eye isn't necessarily the be all end all of the deck.  But it serves a function and replaces FOF in the deck.  I haven't found another card that can really swing slow paced games as much as this one can.  Basically, it isn't that hard to get this guy into play and once it hits it is actually very difficult to lose.  Not to mention that the extra cards make it very easy to get to a Yawg Will with plenty
of backup.

I think that four Rebs is far too much.  I almost think that three is too much to board in against Gifts, almost too much I still bring them all in.  However, the main reason I play three is that there is a lot of Blue White Fish in our meta and it helps out with that match up, which can be somewhat difficult.

Personal Tutor is a thought, in fact it was the lats card that I cut from my maindeck.

[cryolyte]

Mind's Eye is so great Brian, good tech there. I destroyed the gifts deck I played last night with it. That being said, in my meta there are only 2 gifts decks, so the mind's Eye goes into the board, but it's a brick house.

General Question Lead-in: I have toyed with gifts in its various incarnations ever since meandeck gifts was made public. The thing I noticed about it was how bad of a draws recoup and colossus, and burning wish most of the time, were. Sure you can brainstorm them back but what if you don't have a fetchland? The cards don't always fall pretty.

General Question: What would you say about taking a regular control slaver list and adding Goblin Charbelcher as big artifact #4 (along with trike, bus, slaver) and replacing goblin welder #4 with burning wish? This way you can go for severance or belcher out of the board and win immediately.

My build embracing this idea:

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Thirst for Knowledge

3 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Burning Wish
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Mindslaver
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Triskelion
1 Pentavus

1 Rack and Ruin
1 Echoing Truth

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
4 Fetch
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Darksteel Citadel

Sideboard:

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Darkblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mind's Eye
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Darksteel Colossus
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Mana Severance
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Stifle

Comments?

cryolyte

[forests failed you]

It isn't bad, but the idea I'm really loving right now is playing Slaver like it was a combo deck.

Wish ------> Tendrils is stupid good and allows you to just win games very quickly.


Also, the added tutors do for this deck what Merchant Scroll does for Gifts.  It allows you to win not via quantity of cards, but rather through sheer qualitiy of cards.  It seems that the deck always has the broken cards and is casting them and going off.  Rather than trying to Thirst into Recall, Walk, Lotus and Will, the new Burning Slavery can just go find all of those cards very quickly and simply out tempo most other decks. 

Aside from going broken, this list also has all of the necessary cards to protect itself from pretty much any type of threat.  You have four maindeck tutors to find Burning Wish in order to remove problematic threats.  If you burn the Wish early, you can still Will, but Gifts becomes your win condition as it sets up a Slaver lock comming out of Yawgmoth's Will into the Time Walk turn.

I actually really like Goblin Charbelcher as a win condition in Gifts over Darksteel Colossos.

[Ged]

Thanks for the build, it looks really elegant and strong.

I just have a few questions:
1) Merchant Scroll in the sideboard? Isn't it a bit clunky?
2) How has the 15 lands configuration been treating you (one less than in previous version)?
3) Your thoughts on Sensei's Top (in Mind's Eye slot)?

[forests failed you]

1. No, it isn't a Wish target I bring it in after board when I want to make my deck look more like a combo deck than a Slaver deck, I also board in Recoup in that incarnation.

2. The fifteen lands are fine, the curve of the deck is down a bit and there is actually more draw than before.  I actually want to cut another land to play Lotus Petal, but I don't think that is the right call.

3.  I have considered it but I don't think that is the right call either.  Mind's Eye is a not random card draw, it is a fucking BOMB.  If that card gets into play and you can protect it you win.

[TheBrassMan]

I really hate to be "that guy"  but the fact is, a lot of work has been done on this deck already, and it's all pretty public information, it just had a different name.  http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9417.html was a report I wrote on essentially the same archetype about 7 months ago.  More to the point, http://www.people.virginia.edu/~kmb8c/Wbury/Day1/Crossman%20Wilkins.jpg is the list Crossman of GGs took to second at the last Waterbury, and the maindeck is astoundingly similar to the posted "Burning Slaver" list.

I say this not to point fingers, but to bring up that we've been playing with the archetype forever, and the places the lists differ are the direct result of tournament experience.

SSB vs Burning Slaver

+1 Goblin Charbelcher - You've already brought up the major reasons in the thread, Belcher is probably the best combo kill in a Welder build, where you don't need Rebuild, don't want Colossus, and edge out Flame Vault, because you're much more likely to "win small" by attacking (in which case raw-dogging belcher is a lot more effective)

+1 Gifts Ungiven - As Brian already said, Gifts preforms tricks with Welders, and turns one-time slaver activations into game (in situations where it isn't anyway).  The second one is more key if you're running Recoup, obviously, but I feel that in the hand of an experienced player, Gifts is just about the strongest secondary draw engine you can run, and most Slaver lists need that anyway.

+1 Mana Severance/-1 Burning Wish - This choice is entirely a function of the other cards you decide to run in your deck.  Without Colossus, Burning wish isn't as important a card for comboing out, and without a sideboard built for it, it becomes less than stellar.  At Waterbury we decided to maindeck the Severance for a more powerful, flexible sideboard, and to avoid the tempo loss against decks where it really counted (fish, stax).  Further, without the Colossus kill, you're far less likely to wish for anything besides Severance, and of course the obligatory "OMG pitches 2 Force" argument.

+1 Engineered Explosives/-1 Darkblast - At the time of Waterbury, Darkblast wasn't legal, but I still think EE is the better call.  EE handles goofy aggro decks just fine, but it also kills chalices and punishes moxen-heavy openings.  The fact that it's an artifact is so huge, letting you Thirst, building your Academy, or letting you Weld or Tinker with a Chalice in play.  Darkblast only really shines against Control Slaver, but not only is that matchup not exactly the most common in most areas, the Combo-Slaver deck should wreck it without Darkblast.  Gifts based Slaver has more draw, better cards, abuses Will more, and is more resiliant to the hate people usually bring in in these matches.

+1 Recoup - It can be dead early, yes, but it's one card that changes the function of the deck entirely.  Running it makes Gifts soooo much stronger, but that's obviously well documented.  The advantages of Recoup in a Slaver-style list are that Recouping Time Walk is stronger when your'e relying on creatures with summoning sickness, or on "win small" beats.  Further, Tinker is stronger in Slaver than it is in Gifts, and Recoup pushes its power level.  A subtle difference, with the ability to replay sorceries, you can afford to play an early Will or Tinker into a counter, or even discard them, or Severance, to a Thirst, if necessary

+1 Mana Source - I think the 25th source is the call against all the fish, stax, and chalice oath you see around these days, but it's not something I'd fight for, your milage may vary.


-1 Vampiric Tutor/-1 Imperial Seal - both great cards, but they feel more like sideboard material in the Slaver list.  You *can* combo out early, but you're not going to draw the hands you want Vamp in close to the consistancy Gifts and Tendrils do.  Note that Seal wasn't legal the last time we played SSB in an event, and it's possible now we'd run Burning Wish main and shove Severance and Imperial Seal in the board.  Again, that's really a metagame thing.

-1 Mind's Eye - Mind's Eye has been tried in a lot of Slaver and Shop lists throughout history, and it always found its way out of the deck.  Granted, I haven't tested it, but I've tested other "big artifacts" and I feel like they should be kept to a minimum.  Unlike most of the "big artifact" choices, Mind's Eye can be answered very easily by removal or opposing welders, and takes a while to work.  Sundering Titan, Trike, Mindslaver (with mana up), Memory Jar, are all guarenteed to do something just by getting them into play, Mind's Eye could take a while, or never be useful.  Note that it doesn't draw cards against Merchant Scroll or Gifts (in the matchup you most desperately need to draw cards in), and with certain hands can be too mana intensive to keep up against a good player.

-1 Triskelion  - Triskelion is a nice card, but I don't think is worth the slot.  He has the same problem as Mind's Eye in that he costs too much to cast without help, but more importantly, the same problem as Darkblast, where he's best in a matchup where your'e already in good shape.


Just one Brass Man's opinion

[forests failed you]

Yes but the key is that your old lists are filled with a bunch of bad cards.

You were playing two Duress, 1 Chain of Vapor, Goblin Charbelcher, Mana Severence, and LoA.

If you think about this is just a better list, as far as the power level of the cards is concerned.

the two duress become Imperial Seal and Vampiric Tutor

The Mana Severence becomes Burning Wish

The Chain of Vapor and LoA become two Shamans.

Lotus Petal becomes Citadel.

The Charbelcher and Gifts number two becomes Mind's Eye/Top and Triskellion

Recoup becomes Darkblast.

Strip Mine is awful in this deck.

Two polluted deltas become Strands.... because there is no reason for them not to be (Pithing Needle?)

Not to mention the sideboard of this Burning Slaver list is much more versitile.  I don't actually think that Chalice of the Void is a better call against Combo than Stifle and Tormod's Crypt.  Not to mention the Stifle Crypt rounte also gives you great options against Dragon Combo as well, whereas Chalice is not so good against that deck.

The main difference between these two decks is that especially game one, Burning Wish for Tendrils into Will is a much more eloquent and easy way to win, rather than the clunky and mana intensive Charbelcher / severence combo.  Not to mention all of the cards in the deck are good and useful on their own, wereas Recoup, Severence and Charbelcher, and even to some extent Duress are not the most powerful spells you could be playing with.

I actually played a variation of this deck at SCG Chicago earlier this Spring but it wasn't optimized yet.  With the addition of Imperial Seal and Darkblast this deck actually becomes nuts.

Darkblast is really, really, good as a one of in this deck because it allows you to answer an army with one card.

I've also been seriously considering cutting the Mind's Eye for a Personal Tutor, but then the threat density goes down.  Mind's Eye is after all a bomb.

[MoxMonkey]

ive been working on a more old school SSB list myself.  With the new tutors and Flame/Vault combo its been really nice to me.  I think both decks Burning Slavery and SSB play a lot differently.  I think both decks even though they look so simalar like 4-8 cards are all that change between them and a SB they play completely different.  When im playing with a combo kill im playign very aggressive trying to just win fast and know instead of dragging the game into the late game.  I htink both decks are very nice and can be mistaken for each other which is why I just make hybrids between them.

[forests failed you]

Agreed.  The difference is that one deck is actively racing toward a huge Yawgmoth's Will, while the other tries to set up and establish an overwhelming board position.

[TheBrassMan]

The last thing I want to do is turn this thread into a flame war, because people really should be tuning welder lists right now.  However, I really have to point out, that like I said, the primer SSB list is 7 months old, the second list I linked to, (with the phrase "More to the Point")  is much more current, and has actually put up results in the current metagame.  That current list is what I was referring to with my post, and it doesn't run Strip Mine, Duress or Chain of Vapor.  The sideboard didn't contain Chalices, and it ran the 2 delta/2 strand configuration, making the majority of your statements moot.  The reasoning behind the other changes was posted (besides LoA, but that really isn't a debate I want to get into here).

I strongly feel that the differences between the list being worked on in this thread and the list we played at waterbury show are mistakes on the end of Burning Slaver.  I actually explained why, (rather than just listing which cards were different) but I'll elaborate on the important points.

Burning Wish and the Vamp Tutors are great cards.  In some builds, I'd consider running them.  I don't think they're necessarily optimal in a Welder list right now, but it's not something I feel is necessary to argue.  In a control light metagame, maindeck Vamp effects are amazing, and in a completely random, or Stax/Fish light meta, Burning Wish has it's advantages.  Those cards aren't anywhere near as good in Welder builds as they are in Gifts, but they're still solid, and could be run in the right enviornments.

Something I will not conceed however, is Mind's Eye and Darkblast being good calls. 

Mind's Eye has been tested.  A lot.  It was in some of the first slaver lists from Europe, that ran Ophidians and Lightning Greaves.  It was in MUD in an era where MUD was more popular than Stax.  It did not preform well.  The reason it's terrible is the same argument you use against my Belcher/Recoup/Severance, "not good on it's own."  The difference is, when one of the first three cards hooks up with a friend, you win the game immediately.  Sure, playing it off a Drain or Welding it into play isn't very hard at all, but the same applies to any number of other cards you could be running that have more devestating effects immediately, guarenteed, as I said in my previous post.

Maybe I'm not entirely sure what you're using Darkblast against.  If you have to use Darkblast + Brainstorm or Darkblast + Draw step against any good Fish build, FCG, Shop Aggro, or any not-terrible deck with 2 toughness creatures, you're going to get buried in an avalanche of tempo and card disadvantage.  Darkblast isn't effective against Goblins in legacy, I'm not sure why it's better in vintage.  I explained why I don't like it against Slaver, but if you're having trouble in the Slaver matchup (and it's common there) then I guess I could be wrong.  The only place I really see it as a solid one-of is against Xantid Swarms, but I really don't feel you're running it because of lots of dragon in the meta.  I guess my question there is, where do you find Darkblast to be effective?  I'll be honest, I'd love to run a dredge card like that in Gifts if it turned out to be any good.

[MoxMonkey]

Darkblast goes back to the old why is Lava dart so good argument.  Lava dart like Darkblast has one Purpose Killing Welders and Shamans.  Its not some secret tech to beat Goblins or aggros its purpose is to protect our moxen.  YOu can use the same thing when most slaver players had a single Lava Dart main.  Its really bad a lot of times but its so good in the mirrror you could live with a dead draw.
Minds Eye was my idea and I have been testing it for ages.  I was going to run it at waterbury but I didn't want to cut my 26th mana source since all I saw was 5 strip Goblins and Stax. Luckly me I got 3 mirrors my first 3 rounds but thats another story.  Gifts isn't unwinnable but Minds Eye resolving is huge.  I can keep my hand up and rebuild after we had  acounter battle over something.  Its the same reason you still run LOA in your Gifts builds.  LOA is a great card but its not that great in Gifts everybody knows it but people still run it cause it can generate a crazy advantage.
This isn't going to turn into a flame but Ive played Slaver for ever and Ive picked up Gifts enough to knwo how to play it well.  Both decks are very good but saying that they are the same is crazy.  They play completly different and if your playing slaver like Gifts or Gifts like slaver its not going to work trust me I learned the hard way.

[TheBrassMan]

Darkblast only really shines against Control Slaver, but not only is that matchup not exactly the most common in most areas, the Combo-Slaver deck should wreck it without Darkblast.  Gifts based Slaver has more draw, better cards, abuses Will more, and is more resiliant to the hate people usually bring in in these matches.

  I will say, that I like Darkblast better than Lava Dart.  But I don't think either is a good call in the enviornment we're playing in now.

Its the same reason you still run LOA in your Gifts builds

  I don't think the cards even compare, but the fundemental difference is that LoA taps for mana, and Mind's Eye just sits in your hand.  Like I said, I know for some reason people don't like LoA anymore (personally, I believe it's because people forgot how to play magic, but that's neither here nor there.)  As a result, I'm not going to defend it, but I will say, I'd much rather be running Island than Mind's Eye, and it's not just me, but 3 years of people testing the card and losing with it that say so.

[MoxMonkey]

Darkblast only really shines against Control Slaver, but not only is that matchup not exactly the most common in most areas, the Combo-Slaver deck should wreck it without Darkblast.  Gifts based Slaver has more draw, better cards, abuses Will more, and is more resiliant to the hate people usually bring in in these matches.

  I will say, that I like Darkblast better than Lava Dart.  But I don't think either is a good call in the enviornment we're playing in now.

I tend to like my Lava dart more but its foreign and altered so thats a little bias.

Its the same reason you still run LOA in your Gifts builds

  I don't think the cards even compare, but the fundemental difference is that LoA taps for mana, and Mind's Eye just sits in your hand.  Like I said, I know for some reason people don't like LoA anymore (personally, I believe it's because people forgot how to play magic, but that's neither here nor there.)  As a result, I'm not going to defend it, but I will say, I'd much rather be running Island than Mind's Eye, and it's not just me, but 3 years of people testing the card and losing with it that say so.

They do compare because Your running LOA to gain an edge in a Control Matchup.  Im not one of the people who think its bad cause Id probably run it in Chicago with only 2-3 Basic Islands in my slaver list.  It may tap for mana but Minds Eye also is a discard to Thirst and makes Welders a lot more powerful vs Gifts based combo decks.

[Dozer]

Yes but the key is that your old lists are filled with a bunch of bad cards.
[...]

So Duress, LoA, Charbelcher are bad cards? I disagree. Just because different cards have different applications, they can't be called generally bad, especially since they are not. I am not a fan of Charbelcher myself, but it's not a bad card per se. Also, the current lists of Brassman Gifts have cut down on possibly dead cards, but that's beside the point.

The main difference between these two decks is that especially game one, Burning Wish for Tendrils into Will is a much more eloquent and easy way to win, rather than the clunky and mana intensive Charbelcher / severence combo.  Not to mention all of the cards in the deck are good and useful on their own, wereas Recoup, Severence and Charbelcher, and even to some extent Duress are not the most powerful spells you could be playing with.

While the Belcher-using Gifts lists might not have had the Tendrils kill for a while, the European Gifts lists used that kill at least since the French champs in May, over Charbelcher. We know how elegant the kill is and how well it works. What I'd like to know is how different this list still plays to Gifts? If we follow Smmenen's suggestion to put another Gifts in the deck, we get Gorilla Shaman as the major difference, since the Tendrils kill is present in both.

4 big artifacts and 3 Welder, or 1 Recoup, 1 DSC and two more Gifts. Is it really that big a difference, other than that the Gifts version can run more "open" slots? What I'm getting at is that with the presence of Darkblast and Pithing Needle, Welder has lost a lot of appeal in general. Is there a solid reason other than personal preference to run this Slaver configuration over Gifts?

The sideboard loks weak to me from the standpoint of a lot of experience with Gifts. If it's worth burning your only Wish on Recoup, running it main seems like the next logical step and putting in DSC then is obvious. Apart from that and the mandatory Tendrils, you only have Pyroclasm and Meltdown/ Echoing Ruin (both are worse than Primitive Justice or Eye of Nowhere) as targets. Where are the bombs that your Burning Wish transforms into? At least a Duress might make more sense here, since you have enough maindeck win conditions (more than regular Gifts) to actually use the Wish on something that advances your gamestate.
Personally, I hate sitting on the Wish until I can execute the elegant Tendrils kill. Too few utility cards in the sideboard makes Wish a potentially dead card. I see the "danger of cool things" happening a lot with this configuration; this might even take more learning than regular Gifts because as we have read countless times before, the big strength or unique selling point of Slaver was the ability to win small. Giving the deck such a solid way to win "big" like Tendrils is contradictory to that, and I wonder if it helps or takes the focus of the deck much more into the direction of Gifts. I think it's the latter.

They play completly different and if your playing slaver like Gifts or Gifts like slaver its not going to work

This is what I doubt. The lists aren't that different anymore. You can play both decks with the same approach (talking about a TfK-Gifts list here), only the execution of the kill is different.

Dozer

[forests failed you]

It wasn't intended to start a Flame War Brassy.  You know I love you.  But seriously, I'm a little bit upset with you at the moment.

The point is that this list plays so different from your SSB Severence Belcher deck that it is actually ridiculous.

Check out my list from SCG Chicago last Spring, I have been on top of this idea for just as long as you guys have, and implying that this list is a cheap knock off your list is actually insane.  I actually played Burning Slaver to a top 16 finish there, but the list wasn't quite on yet.  In fact, I'm pretty sure that it is the same SCG event that you linked me to.  So to somehow imply that you have authenticty over this list strikes me as a little bit odd.

Burning Slavery is not a control deck.  It is actually a combo deck that utalizes control components to make Mana.  The primary objective of this deck is to set up a fast Tendils kill.  Welder is in the deck primarally to Weld Mox for Lotus on a Will turn so you just win.  The Tutors enable you to set up with staggering consistency and quickness.

Mind's Eye is probably the weakest card in the deck, no doubt.  It could very easily be moved to the board and the Merchant Scroll put into the main deck.

As for Darkblast;  as a one of it is actually insane.  It helps you beat Fish, it deals with opposing Shamans which are actually a threat to this list, and it kills Welders if you go to the long game.  Not to mention it is an easy answer to Xantid Swarm or Goblin Lackey.  If you still don't believe me that Darkblast is good, I was either going to play that or Personal Tutor in its place.  The ability to kill infi threats seemed better; however the P Tutor is pretty good as well.

The other card that has to be killed is Meddling Mage that gets Vialed down, or Voidmage Prodigy in the UW FISHALO deck.

Playing with all the tutors is so advantageous in this deck that it is actually stupid.  In my opinion playing Vamp, and Imperial Seal is just clearly better than the Merchant Scrolls that Gifts decks are playing, because they become extremely useful during your Yawgmoth's Will turn, wereas Scroll is extremely subpar.  Burning Wish is SOOOOO good in this deck that it is actually stupid.  Seriously, throw the deck together and give it a few test games, it is a very different monster than the one that you guys have been working on.  

Although I will admit I am a little bit upset with you at the moment; you comming into my thread and trying to take credit for something you didn't do.  You invented Severence Belcher in a Slaver shell, nobody is trying to take that away from you here.  But this is a different deck based around Tendrils of Agony and Burning Wish.  It is functionally very different from your deck.

The only thing that is the same about our decks is the Slaver core they share.  Other than that we are playing two completely different alternate win conditions and a handful of different cards that help achieve those different objectives.  Burning Slavery is in many ways what TPS always wanted to be.  The key differnce is that it doesn't fizzle out and is much more difficult to disrupt.  Not to mention it has a whole other set of threats that must be dealt with.  Against Agro decks Burning Slaver actually goldfishes at close to the same speed that TPS does in many instances, not to mention it has plenty of counters to back itself up against opposing control decks.  

Seriously Andy, I like you a lot and I think you are a great deck designer and an all around nice guy.  However, I think you should take a closer look at this deck and how it actually plays out in a game situation before you try to claim authorship of it.  You saying that you somehow deserve some sort of claim to the authenticity of this list, makes about as much sense as Kevin Cron claiming authenticity for Uba STAX because he was playing with Smokestacks and Spheres first.  The Slaver shell is the same I'll give you that, all Slaver shells are the same, other than that all of the other cards are different and are focused on doing something very different than casting Mana Severence and activating Charbelcher.

 Â 

[Komatteru]

Check out my list from SCG Chicago last Spring

You played Chalice Oath at April Chicago.