The Many Faces of Control Slaver

[rureddy31]

Well, I think the one big surprise that came out of Rochester (other than that stupid, cocky red head Canadian t8ing) is the fact that 3 Control Slaver decks made T8, but not only that, 3 substantially different builds. There was of course Ugo's Uber control slaver deck, with 3 mana leaks, Crucible Lock MD as well as Platinum Angel. Then there was Brian and his Burning Slavery. And last but not least, that cocky Canadian's cookie cutter control slaver, as I like to call it. Even now, I think cookie cutter is the way to go. What I found during Rochester is that while Ugo's list may be far superior in the mirror and other control matches, the traditional list allows you to have a better chance in a diverese field, not that Rochester was that diverse. I mean, I played 4 Mirrors (including T8), 2 Fish Decks, and 1 Turbo-Land Combo Deck. And quite frankly, I like Duress SOOOO much better than Mana Leak. Without firther ado, I'd like to post my list here, to see what y'all think. Though the SB may look janky in a ocuple of spots, I assure you, I made some metagame choices that seemed to be wrong. Put it this way, I pretty much played with a 12 card SB. You figure out the the 3 duds. Anyway, here is it is:

Canadian Slavery

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mindslaver
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Artifact Creatures
1 Pentavus
1 Triskelion

Creatures
4 Goblin Welder

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Fire / Ice
4 Force Of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Thirst For Knowledge

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Duress

2 Island
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

Sideboard
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Darkblast
1 Duress
1 Duplicant
3 Rack And Ruin
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Aether Spellbomb
2 Gorilla Shaman

Before I end this. I have one more thing I would like to bounce off y'all. What do you think of Skeletal Scrying mostly in the mirror and other control matches. I only ask this because I have a couple friends convinced this card is the nut high. I tend to disagree, but I'd like to hear some other opinions.

[MoxMonkey]

I think using 1 Mindslaver is wrong you want 2 unless you have some fancy reason not to and dont say I have a gifts cause that doesn't work I ran 2 slavers and a gifts and with my testing 2 MindSlavers are a must right now.  Although i could be wrong but slaving someone is so good.

I think you want the 3rd island and drop the 5th fetch.  I run 1-2 more mana sources in my build with extra fetchs and its been working fine.  I dont like Duress I think its junk in slaver.  its solid v combo and gifts but vs fish, stax, aggro FCG madness its dead and makes your first turn underground sea become a lotus petal.    Sorry thought you had them main but I still dont think Slaver needs Duess REB does the same and better vs gifts and combo hates our slavers and crypts enough.

I was never happy with Gifts in the deck without a Recoup to abuse it or many tutors and burning wish as FFY has in his build.  Slaver is fine and great job doing so well with it. 
If you are seeing a lot of REB try throwing a Skeletal main and 1 Sideboard its savage and makes me and hopefully you happy when someones like I cannot REB something in your deck???? WTF are you playing.  It makes me happy every time I make someone sad they brought in 4 REB.

Just a monkeys thought.

[sean1i0]

I certainly think that Skeletal Scrying can be absolutely crazy in control mirrors/late game.  The only thing that can give S.S. the shaft is that it has to work really hard to do enough early game.  Thirst for Knowledge has some obvious synergies with the card and that could possibly give it a place in a CS deck.

Overall I like your list:  It seems to be a pretty strong traditional CS deck.  There are only a few things that hit me right off the bat; the first is the fact that you have 4 goblin welders, as odd as that still sounds.  As has been talked about in some of the other threads on here, 4 goblin welder really does sound like too much in today's metagame.  That also changes depending on how much Stax you're facing though.

The second thing has already been stated, but I think that it's strong enough to re-iterate:  I seriously doubt that 1 Mindslaver is enough.  Just about the strongest thing that you can do in a standard CS deck is to slave someone, even it's just once.  Grant it, slaving an aggro deck is nothing more than a time walk a lot of the times, slaving a control or combo deck is usually enough to almost ensure victory, as I'm sure you are aware of.

And yes, I also totally agree that 4 non-wasteable lands is probably near the minimum number you want to have in a control deck.  You have got to be able to build up a decent amount of mana on the field.

Overall though, I think it's a nice looking deck.

[rureddy31]

My bad, the duresses were main, and here is the simple reason why. The Decks I expected most were Gifts, Slaver and Oath. The changes I would make to the deck now are:

In the MD:

- 1 Goblin Welder
- 2 Duress

+ 1 Vampiric Tutor
+ 2 Gorilla Shaman (I found that in every matchup I brought in the third duress as well as the 2 shamans. These are more versatile I feel)

In the SB:

-2 Gorilla Shaman
-2 Aether Spellbomb

+1 Echoing Truth
+1 ................... (haven't decided whether this should be a one of, a second fire/ice, or something else)
+2 Duress

Of course, this is all depending on the metagame. In a heavy fish meta, I would try to find a couple spots for pyro. In an oath meta, I would run the identiacal board I ran at SCG, and stax would cause me to add maybe a couple of hurkyl's recall...Tons of options are open....

[pyr0ma5ta]

I think using 1 Mindslaver is wrong you want 2 unless you have some fancy reason not to and dont say I have a gifts cause that doesn't work I ran 2 slavers and a gifts and with my testing 2 MindSlavers are a must right now.  Although i could be wrong but slaving someone is so good.

Try using punctuation.  I can't read anything you just wrote.

[rureddy31]

I think using 1 Mindslaver is wrong you want 2 unless you have some fancy reason not to and dont say I have a gifts cause that doesn't work I ran 2 slavers and a gifts and with my testing 2 MindSlavers are a must right now.  Although i could be wrong but slaving someone is so good.

I think you want the 3rd island and drop the 5th fetch.  I run 1-2 more mana sources in my build with extra fetchs and its been working fine.  I dont like Duress I think its junk in slaver.  its solid v combo and gifts but vs fish, stax, aggro FCG madness its dead and makes your first turn underground sea become a lotus petal.    Sorry thought you had them main but I still dont think Slaver needs Duess REB does the same and better vs gifts and combo hates our slavers and crypts enough.

I was never happy with Gifts in the deck without a Recoup to abuse it or many tutors and burning wish as FFY has in his build.  Slaver is fine and great job doing so well with it. 
If you are seeing a lot of REB try throwing a Skeletal main and 1 Sideboard its savage and makes me and hopefully you happy when someones like I cannot REB something in your deck???? WTF are you playing.  It makes me happy every time I make someone sad they brought in 4 REB.

Just a monkeys thought.

what I found with Slaver is that "winning the game" is not about having a fat artifact, or a mindslaver, I find I win games when I have drawn 5+ or more cards than my opponent. In control matchups, Gifts to be more specific, I actually side out both Trike and Pentavus. I win the game either with welder/shaman beats, and/or activationg Mindslaver one or more times. Control Slaver wins games just by board control. 2 Mindslavers seems really redundant. Why on earth will you ever need more than one? Just my thoughts...In my games, I never NEEDED a 2nd Slaver. Most of my opponents conceded on an activation.

[PipOC]

In my games, I never NEEDED a 2nd Slaver. Most of my opponents conceded on an activation.

redundancy, with 2, you'll find one alot faster.

[MoxMonkey]

I love having 2 Mindslavers.  thirst digs deep but there are games when your only running 1 and you just never see the slaver.  I had  vamp before in the deck and vamped for slaver to thirst into it just so I had it.  MindSlaver is the most powerful part of CS and running less than 2 with a more traditional list like this and mine in my testing has been bad.  I had 2 at waterbury, 2 at SCG where I left due to driving and having a Steak and cheese sub that was not very good, and I am running 2 now.  I dont like Gifts in the deck because it makes graveyard hate better against you and is only really solid with a Welder on the board but so is Intuion but we are not seeing that run.  If Winning games to you is about Card advantage I would drop the Gifts for a Skeletal Scrying I think you will like seeing it since Gifts without recoup or lots of Tutors is very hard to make a good card.  Also Skeletal as I said before cannot be REB which is such a big deal aginst Gifts if its big over in Canada since Gifts has 3-4 REB.
Sorry if you cannot read my typing I'm not here to make myself look smarter cause if I was I would probably take time typing up paragraths like this and put them in a more organized order.  I will try to type better for your reading but most of the time you can read my first line and thats all thats important in the whole post.  I'll keep this in mind when typing in the future.
The list im using right now has
All I can do is say I have never liked anyone elses CS list due to my crappy play style.  I used FFY for like 2-3 days and stopped cause I hated how it played.  It was very solid and good I just didn't like playing.  I play Rich shays and change it all the time.  I would try out the Mana leak version but I alreayd did that I think 1-2 months ago which I posted in the How to play Slaver now thread.  I think playing slaver comes down to How do YOU want to play Slaver and whats YOUR Metagame call because the basic skeleton is always around but its playing a deck you like and know how thats most important.  I couldn't win a tournament with FFY's list cause I dont like it not cause its bad same with a Rich shay list.  Build the deck how you want it built not how people tell you too.  Thats the best advice I can give.

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You violated rule one hardcore style. Verbal warning--don't do it again.
-Jacob

[pyr0ma5ta]

Sorry if you cannot read my typing I'm not here to make myself look smarter cause if I was I would probably take time typing up paragraths like this and put them in a more organized order.

My point exactly.  Holy run-on sentences, Batman!

I personally like having 2 slavers in the deck, because I do not like running the Wish-Tendrils plan, it makes for more dead cards in close matches and makes the rest of the engine less good.  By running the full Trike/Pentabus/2 Slavers, Thirst for knowledge is just that much better, and you find a big robot to weld so much faster.  I agree that Trike/Pentabus can probably get safely boarded out against another control deck, but how can you advocate running 1 slaver?  Running 2 means you see one twice as fast, and thus win twice as fast.  You said it yourself, once you activate, you win.  You don't even actually need anything else in the deck other than counters, mana, draw, welders, and pitch outlets in a control mirror.  How can you advocate running only 1 then?

Edit: I agree with running more basics.  4 Islands is amazing against stax.  Also, you don't run DSC.  He's amazing against unpowered decks, because if you slave some random zombie deck you can't relaly do anythign broken to make him autolose.  Instead, just tutor up will, draw a bunch of cards, tinker out the big iron man, and walk a few times ftw.  It's almost as good as sliced bread.

[rureddy31]

Ok, well here is what I am trying to say, and believe me, I coul djust as easily be wrong. However, I believe that NEEDEDING  an artifact that quickly, and that badly rarely happens, and if it does, it means you're in a losing position, and losing quickly. Also, Mindslaver is not good against every deck. In fact, I normally side it out vs. Fish and Stax. Against the Control decks, I do understand it is a massive board wrecking spell. But with the control decks, you have time to control the game and prepare your mindslaver. Gifts is another card that finds slaver. With activer welder, Gifts up a pentavus and slaver, drop another welder, Good Game. I like to focus this deck on control, on board position. Winning in control slaver is a technicality. It happens eventually, but normally you have won 5 or 6 turns ago when you recalled, thirsted, and braistormed. I would really like some feedback from some of the bigger names on this format, dicemanx, smennen, forcefieldyou. What do you guys think? Am I way off here, or am I close? I haven't been playing the deck forever, but long enough to get a good graps of its strength's, weaknesses and th estrategies to win games.                                               

[pyr0ma5ta]

Actually, landing a slave turn is pretty hot against Stax.  Make him weld out his lock pieces, sac his shops and welders to his stack, waste his own lands, and then tap his gemstone mines to run them out of counters...I don't know, seems strong to me...

Rureddy: I'm actually running a 55 card mirror of your maindeck:

-1 Gifts
-2 Duress
-1 LoA
-1 fetch

+1 Shaman
+1 Slaver
+2 Island
+1 DSC

I'm thinking Gifts is correct in the main, and DSC probably is incorrect.  Duress seems weak, however. 

The reason I run 2 Slavers main is actually the same reason FFY runs a Burning Wish for Tendrils plan.  We both agree that being able to switch roles and go aggro to drop a bomb and win on the spot is very valuable; he thinks a combo win is correct, I think just activating Slaver or landing a DSC and time walking a few times is right.  If you don't run either of these plans, you are dedicating yourself to the control role ONLY, which is fine, if not for the sheer oops factor of Vintage.  It works in Standard/Extended, but there's a reason why even the control decks in Vintage have a turn 4 win. 

[dicemanx]

Ryan, you are asking some questions that have no definitive answer. Instead you'll typically receive responses from individuals that tried certain configurations and swear its the way to go, but the truth is that if you are running powerful broken cards swapping one powerful card for another will rarely significantly impact how the deck performs. Running 2 Slavers has been done before and it has worked out perfectly fine, but its the typical case of increasing risk for greater reward. Since a single activation of Mindslaver wins games against so many top tier archetypes, it might be worthwhile to increase their main deck count. This comes at a price - more "useless" cards that can gum up your hand if you don't find or resolve relevant spells like TfK/Welder or massive Mana Drains. So take your pick - do you wish to increase your chances of winning "immediately" and occasionally lose some games because of the decrease in the early relevant spell count?

The same argument goes for Duress. This card is quite powerful against certain archetypes and in certain situations against any archetype, but it can also turn into a big dud mid game or whiff because of an opposing Brainstorm. When you get into attrition battles and both players are beginning their recovery process, do you cast a top decked Duress if they have 1-3 cards in hand? Difficult question. Also, are you willing to make sacrifices to your mana base to support Duress? Of course you can make the same kind of arguments against any disruption that would replace Duresses. Ugo, for instance, opted for Leaks to beef up his disruption, but they of course have their own shortcomings - they can be played around, and quite easily midgame. These however are not sufficient arguments against either Duress or Leak - both are powerful but situational, and people can cite all the anecdotal evidence they want how terrible or amazing they have been for them but both have been proven to push Slaver to the top in tournament play.

With Slaver I think its not so relevant to ask what the optimal decklist is (an answer you will never find), but solidify your play skill with the deck and begin the discovery process of what works and doesn't work against other archetypes. This will teach you how to metagame well if you anticipate certain archetypes in a tournament, but it will also teach you what slots are flexible and how the deck can be molded for surprise value. Its quite possible that Ugo's and Demars' decks were objectively "suboptimal", but they had some measure of surprise value, and the so called "suboptimal" decisions won them games/matches. Ugo's MD Platinum Angel stole at least one game in the finals, as did Blood Moon - two cards he was criticized for.

That's not to say that a more traditional Slaver deck can't do well - you've certainly shown otherwise more recently. However, keeping opponents off balance can net you some easy wins, which are always welcome in a format that has a significant luck component once you start nearing the later rounds. Perhaps Slaver can entertain such surprising things like a transformational board into Oath or Gifts?

[rureddy31]

Thanks Peter, that's a response I was looking for. I don't know if oyu are kidding about transformational SB, but it is certainly something to look at :lol: as both decks are VERY similar.

[Arend83]

here's a thought Tormod's Crypt is a pain in the ass for slaver.... now that said how do you think tormod's crypt will be against a deck that searches and puts cards in the yard for later abuse? (I'm aware of other yard hate but Crypt seems to be the one that sees more play)

@Skeletal Scrying I have moved mine to the board as I cut it for Cunning wish and the only time you really want to see it is late game and thats about the time that Cunning wish would fetch a draw spell

[MoxMonkey]

Tormod's Crypt is a minor inconvenience at most to slaver.  Most lists do not run Gifts Ungiven and Slaver can pitch a Mox to Thirst and wait to hard-cast the Mindslaver off Drain mana and its land drops. 

Skeletal Scrying, in my experience, is amazing at getting around Red Elemental Blast, which is probably the one card I am scared to see.

Quote Diceman: transformational board into Oath or Gifts?

I'd love to see a Sideboard list that can change Slaver into Oath.  Care to share one or was this just a quick thought?

[Arend83]

Tormod's Crypt is a minor inconvenience at most to slaver. Most lists do not run Gifts Ungiven and Slaver can pitch a Mox to Thirst and wait to hard-cast the Mindslaver off Drain mana and its land drops.

Skeletal Scrying, in my experience, is amazing at getting around Red Elemental Blast, which is probably the one card I am scared to see.

Quote Diceman: transformational board into Oath or Gifts?

I'd love to see a Sideboard list that can change Slaver into Oath. Care to share one or was this just a quick thought?

I was refering that your opponent would be bringing in yard hate to deal with your welders and that hate would be even better against gifts if you were to run a transformational to go that way.

@Oath been there done that 0-2 was not a happy place to be

[pyr0ma5ta]

Hm, a Slaver-Oath transformation is tempting, but you need to side in a bunch of stuff: Orchards, Oaths, and fatties, while taking out robots and welders.  Thirst becomes a lot less good and non synergistic...I'm not sure this plan makes sense.  Of course, if someone has a build, let's talk, but I'm inclined to believe it's not gonna happen.

[The Atog Lord]

Why would a Control Slaver deck ever need to become an Oath deck? That's almost an entire sideboarded dedicate to transforming into a deck that doesn't really have much on Slaver in the first place. The whole point of a transformational sideboard is to dodge hate or fix a certain weakness or hole in a deck. Slaver, by being pretty stable and strong against most hate, doesn't really need to sacrifice its whole sideboard to do this.

[dicemanx]

I was being facetious about my comment on including a transformational SB in Slaver, as evidenced by the smiley and complete lack of discussion/suggestions. That doesn't mean that its not possible, but as Rich indicated, in Slaver its probably unnecessary.

[insertnamehere]

The build I run uses 2 Mindslavers, 2 Staff of Dominations as well as Defense Grids. Due to Proxy restrictions I use the over F.O.W. and Mana Drains. I have seen my deck walk over Gifts and Stax within the first 3 turns. I also run 3 rack and ruin to overcome an early game Nul Rod or Cursed Totem which all but shuts down Slaver.
Welcome to TMD! Forum rules are here: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=18027.0

Discussion of a Slaver deck that somehow does not run Drains or Forces belongs in the Vintage Improvement forum.
-Jacob

[pyr0ma5ta]

Null Rod is about 500 times more scary than Cursed Totem.  And mana drain is an integral part of the deck; you can just drain into a Pentavus or Trike, and they're pretty darned big all by themselves. 

By the way, does anyone Maindeck RNR anymore?  A fish deck that goes turn 1 mox land null rod against your no fow hand...bad news right?

[Arend83]

Null Rod is about 500 times more scary than Cursed Totem. And mana drain is an integral part of the deck; you can just drain into a Pentavus or Trike, and they're pretty darned big all by themselves.

By the way, does anyone Maindeck RNR anymore? A fish deck that goes turn 1 mox land null rod against your no fow hand...bad news right?

that is why I run the broken combo of welder shaman or shaman Islands and tutor up a tolarian to get the 5 mana necessary or draining something

[MoxMonkey]

It's really metagame dependent.  I would Mainboard a Rack and Ruin if the Metagame was heavy on, Stax, and Vial/Chalice Fish.  If you have an open mainboard spot Rack and Ruin is really good right now. 

[forests failed you]

Maindeck Rack and Ruin is really janky in almost any metaIgame; as you don't actually need it to win games.  I only play that configuration when I know that I've been drinking too much the night before and I'm going to be hung over the next day and not wanting to play techy, but play easy.  That is my magic seceret.  If my list has no Rack and Ruin you know I'm not hung over, and actually ready to play.

Also, I was dangerously close to playing two Teferi's Response in my board in Rochester.  My teamates actually physically hid my Responses because they were convinced it was terrible.  However, I still think it may be savage against Oath, Stax, and Fish.  If it resolves, you actually win the game on the spot.  Its actually a three for one that gains you infi tempo. 

Also, I have come to the conclusion that Darkblast is terrible in Slaver for a variety of reasons.  Pyrite Spellbomb is quite the bomb spell..

[Arend83]

My teamates actually physically hid my Responses because they were convinced it was terrible.

they were right I've tested this at a tournament with no success.

[forests failed you]

Damn it!  Everyone is a better Slaver player than me now!!!

[dicemanx]

The best players that would make all the right plays and are authorities on which decks/card choices are the best are invariably those that either don't show up to play or that don't make top 8s.

[forests failed you]

Peter, everytime you post I like you more and more.

[yespuhyren]

The best players that would make all the right plays and are authorities on which decks/card choices are the best are invariably those that either don't show up to play or that don't make top 8s.

Are you kidding me?  Thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard.  That T8 was incredible.  I mean, Cocky canadian red head aka Ryan Trepp...
wait....
yes....
Peter, your 100% right.  Good call 

[Arend83]

Damn it! Everyone is a better Slaver player than me now!!!

I never said I was a better player I'm just saying that I have tested this and it wasn't as impressive as it turned out