The Many Faces of Control Slaver

[Smmenen]

When I started playing Magic, I had a card named Gray Orge. He was good enough to make the cut in my early decks, until I got my hands on a Hurloon Minotaur.

Against Fish, if we're going to resolve something expensive, how about Old Man of the Sea? He's really good against fish, stealing their guys and blocking pretty much their entire team. And, of course, he's even cheaper than Jens. And Jens doesn't really survive an encounter with a Lion or a Dog. Old Man does. Sometimes he even steals their dog.

Against Stax, Jens is four mana for two permanents: a basic land and a bear. For just one mana, Sarcomancy gives us a bear and a Smokestack offering, and that's not seeing much play. Not that I'd ever advocate playing that card in Slaver. For just three mana, we could enjoy Rack and Ruin or Energy Flux. I'd much rather have either of those cards against an artifact-heavy deck.

Now, perhaps you might say -- consider how good Jens is with an active Welder! Yes, he sure is. But then, for four mana, a Gifts or Intuition can win you the game with an active Welder; Jens just becomes a clunky draw engine. Against Stax, an active Welder doesn't need all that much help to be amazing anyways. And as High-Val pointed out, Top is a fine card for abusing Welder, without the unfortunate downside of being a four mana artifact that does nothing close to winning you the game.

Now, I could well be wrong. Perhaps I'm completely missing something with Jens. But I have a hard time believing that a better sideboard option couldn't be found against Fish or Stax.

I can see Jens being good not because he is "optimal" against Fish and Stax in terms of hosing theri strategy, but becuase he creates the most synergy so that the benefits are greater than the opportunity costs.

That is, Old Man isn't an artifact, so he can't be welded in nor discarded to Thirst.  Jens can be.  Jens can be sacked to stack to draw and get a land.  He can then be welded back.  Getting land against Fish can be amazing.  I doubt that you would hard cast jens in a situation where you'd hard cast Gifts.

[vroman]

Jens is a 3 for 1, if you trade him in combat, or can weld for better artifacts (or just to draw cards). at 4 colorless mana (ie drain fodder), thats like a recurable fact or fiction.
as for blood moon, Back to Basics is dramatically better hoser. esp now that Im not running mountains. my deck is superb at making land drops. losing bazaar hurts, but still w crucible, I have few mana problems even w only single-mana producers. in adition, your severely reduced ability to produce blue, means its easier for me to play around drain. thus you have spent 3 mainphase mana, and a card, to effect the match very little. and you still lose to smoky.

[Lou]

Maybe I still lose to Smokestack.  Let's not forget that I now have more than enough red mana to cast my Rack and Ruins, which I have ran upwards of 3 before, against you even, and it has always done its job.  You lose your discard outlet, and Slaver now has Welder superiority.  It will be an uphill battle for you to get to six mana to cast your Dups or Trike, whichever it might be.  I am not saying that Blood Moon is the end all be all of the Slaver/Uba Stax match up, but I am saying that I don't feel that you are giving it the respect it deserves.

[forests failed you]

I'm telling you it is good. I've tested it. But, I'm probably wrong. I clearly don't know what I am talking about.

It is so good against Stax and Fish that it is actually retarded.

I'll make my wager now that this is an elaborate hoax to see how many people stuff Jens on their board for tournaments just because you posted that it was good. It would make even more sense because you give zero reasons why. At least it's more plausible than our Tarpan tech.

Divining Top is better than Simulacrum from everything I can see and that doesn't get played in CS, even though it really should. Four-mana artifacts that don't win the game straight-up are pretty hard to justify if your deck doesn't run this land I heard of called Mishra's Workshop. If I'm playing something to beat Fish and Stax and it's an artifact, it'll be either Trike or Pentavus.

Solem Simulacrum fetches you BASIC land.  Against Stax and Fish that is the only thing that matters.  He is good in those match ups because it isn't particularly difficult to get to four Mana, whereas hardcasting a Trike can be quite testing.

Against Fish he is absolutely amazing.  He comes down on turn two or three and fishes you out a basic Island, which increases that amount of Mana you have in play.  Not only that but he trades with one of their guys (ninja, Voidmage, Meddling Mage) and then Draws you a card when he hits the yard.  Not to mention the fact that he can be Welded in to give you a huge advantage in permanents and land. 

The key to winning against Fish and Stax with Slaver is to find ways to keep mana on the board.  When you have Mana you actually can't lose, because every spell in your deck is respectively more powerful than every card in theirs; and the consequences of your threats going unanswered is much more serious than theirs. 

I'm playing Solem because he insures that you have additional basic lands in play in match ups where this is key.  I actually don't like Rack and Ruin very much because I have to fetch out non basics early in order to make it effective.  The same thing with Burning Wish, DT, and Vamp.  I frequently board these cards out against decks the play Wasteland because the benefit they give me via their sheer power is not worth the drawback of possibly not having enough Mana to win because I have to fetch for non basics too early

Also, the Slaver list that I've been playing lately is based much more around beating mana denial, and playing a bit of a mana denial role of its own.  The key card to worry about is Null Rod; and I try to play as few activated abilities attached to artifacts as possible.  Although Pyrite Spellbomb is absolutely awesome, there were times where it wasn't doing its job against Fish and Uba Stax because of Null Rod.  I'm back to playing Fire/Ice in the board.  Solem is good because he throws a major monkey wrech into the Null Rod game plan.  he is a body, a basic Island, and a card.  He is oftentimes a three for one against decks that try to control the board, via perments in play, or racing beatdown damage.  He slows down the game and takes it to a place where you can easily gain control and then win.

Old Man of the Sea is crap and I can specifically tell you why.  Fish does not beat you with their guys.  True, they play and efficient cast of pissant little guys that beat you down, but Slaver loses because Fish successfully hinders its ability to make the mana it needs to execute its gameplan.  Solem helps out with Mana while at the same time slowing the damage down and trading with one of their guys.  Not to mention it becomes and absolute beating when you put damage on the stack and weld him out. If you have Mana in the Stax and Fish match up you actually just win, 90% of the time.

I do believe that in both of these situations he is a stronger board card then, Sarcomany;  Although, perhaps The Atog Lord's testing has provided him different results.  It is really disappointing the way players refuse to innovate this format, and immediately scoff at any sort of new idea players put forward.  In spite of what Mr. Linn believes, I actually enjoy innovating this format and inventing new tech; as well as sharing it with the community.  I've never been one to keep my decks or ideas secret, and I've posted every list I've been playing before I played it in any major event.

By the way if your answer to Stax is "Trike" or "Pentavus" you probably lost because they play four maindeck Null Rod and all you have are expensive 4/4 artifacts and not the mana to cast them.  Solem allows you to get Blue into play and force the issue of "Mana Drain" on your opponent without them being able to dictate to you the tempo of the match with their Wastelands.  My deck is already hosed enough by Null Rod, in fact the seven eight best cards in my deck are completely shut down by it: Black Lotus, Mox Jet, Mox Emerald, Mox Sapphire, Mox Pearl, Mox Ruby, Sol Ring, and Mana Crypt.  I prefer to play with other cards that give me a shot at playing out of it. 

BTW:  You totally made my day by suggesting that I have enough influence to get players on a mass level to play with bad cards in their boards just because I say they are good.  If you guys think I am so immodest and overly cocky, why do you continue to stroke and build up my ego like so?  In fact, if I took myself as seriously as the rest of you guys, I might actually be insulted.

Hopefully, this is enough justification to warrant the fact that it is not in fact and elaborate hoax,' but rather, a legitimate and effective board strategy for certain match ups.

[Klep]

By the way if your answer to Stax is "Trike" or "Pentavus" you probably lost because they play four maindeck Null Rod and all you have are expensive 4/4 artifacts and not the mana to cast them.

No one suggested this. They suggested that answers to FISH were Trike or Pentavus, which is quite true because even if Null Rod is down they are large men that Fish has to at least trade 2 for 1 to stop, and if Null Rod isn't down, well then Fish just loses horribly.

BTW:  You totally made my day by suggesting that I have enough influence to get players on a mass level to play with bad cards in their boards just because I say they are good.  If you guys think I am so immodest and overly cocky, why do you continue to stroke and build up my ego like so?  In fact, if I took myself as seriously as the rest of you guys, I might actually be insulted.

He didn't suggest this either.  He suggested you think you have that kind of influence.  It was not intended to stroke your ego, though I am not surprised that it did.

[Vegeta2711]

Old Man of the Sea is crap and I can specifically tell you why.  Fish does not beat you with their guys.  True, they play and efficient cast of pissant little guys that beat you down, but Slaver loses because Fish successfully hinders its ability to make the mana it needs to execute its gameplan.

Solemn Simulacrum - 4

Que?

Solemn is awesome if you could consistently get to 4 mana with CS against Fish. The main problem is this doesn't really happen all that often against OFM or Kird's deck, except for the games where there got like a no-disruption hand (and hence should've mulliganed anyway). And if you -could- get to 4 mana consistently, then you may as well be playing Old Man for one cheaper who wrecks Fish if he hits play, rather than some chump blocker that cantrips.

In all seriousness, if you can resolve 4cc spells against Stax and Fish on a consistent basis, why not just play cards that happen to win the game...

He didn't suggest this either.  He suggested you think you have that kind of influence.  It was not intended to stroke your ego, though I am not surprised that it did.

QFT

as for blood moon, Back to Basics is dramatically better hoser. esp now that Im not running mountains. my deck is superb at making land drops. losing bazaar hurts, but still w crucible, I have few mana problems even w only single-mana producers. in adition, your severely reduced ability to produce blue, means its easier for me to play around drain. thus you have spent 3 mainphase mana, and a card, to effect the match very little. and you still lose to smoky.

You lose Wasteland, Strip Mine and Barbarian Ring when BM hits. It's not that hard to win when you just lost every good non-Smokestack card in the deck. Not saying it's the best choice, but B2B is hardly effective against any deck.

[Hi-Val]

Also, I hear Tinker is pretty good against things like Fish and Stax. There's this card called Personal Tutor whose sole purpose is to dig up Tinker; again, if I'm worried about those decks, I'd rather cast something for U that gets something that costs 2U that puts the win on the board instead of something costing 4 that doesn't seal it. I understand your rationale for Jens, but it seems infinity slow; I'd rather bank on something else that comes in a little more handy when winning the game.

[Smmenen]

Solemn Simulacrum - 4

Que?

Solemn is awesome if you could consistently get to 4 mana with CS against Fish. The main problem is this doesn't really happen all that often against OFM or Kird's deck, except for the games where there got like a no-disruption hand (and hence should've mulliganed anyway). And if you -could- get to 4 mana consistently, then you may as well be playing Old Man for one cheaper who wrecks Fish if he hits play, rather than some chump blocker that cantrips.

I basically disagree with both of you.

Brian is wrong because Old Man is effing amazing against Fish.

What he is missing is that although Fish doesn't cause you to lose primarily because of its men, it is a tempo deck.  Old Man buys a huge amount of time such that their mana denial tempo strategy becomes pointless.

Vegeta and Rich are wrong because they keep assuming that Jens is being cast.  I thought I already said that the point about Jens that makes him potentially more useful than Old Man is that he's na artifact to be welded back.  Josh is right that if you can get 4 mana against Fish your probably winning (although Josh is wrong to say that Gifts would jsut win - there are lots of times where you'll have a one window oportunity to spend four mana on gifts, but then next turn have 2 mana available (and for the rest of the game).  The point is that you can thirst him away and weld him back infy and that will ruin fish as much as Old Man possibly could - he's just a little harder to use than old man, but he's an artifact and not terrible agaihnst Stax (which old man is) and therefore saves sb space. 

[Methuselahn]

Ego?

"Forcefieldyou is my personal gift to Vintage Magic the Gathering."  --God

QFT

So, the presumption is to cast Welder first, then Thirst, then weld Jens?  Smells like a win more card to me.  A card that tries to beat 'fish' at it's own game and fails.  I'm sorry, but I don't see how anywone can resolve Thirst AND Welder and make the argument that Jens is the best card for your control->combo deck to weld in.

[Smmenen]

It's a presumption, but not hte only way.  The cumulative means of getting him in play may rise above a threshold level which makes him good enough, and the cumulative reasons for why he has advantages over other cards may make him optimal.  None of these arguments, in my view, hinge upon one thing. 

[forests failed you]

@ Veggies:  If you can't get four Mana against Fish something is wrong.  I have problems getting to six or seven, but almost never four.  Which is why Solem is so good.  If you don't like it, don't play it.  I think it has fantastic synergy with the deck and that it foils the gameplan of two decks that Slaver struggles against.  But perhaps you have some fantastic insights into Slaver that I have not yet realized, being the fantastic skilled player that you are.  Maybe I'm wrong and my tech is terrible, I guess I will have to ride my playskill to victory like I always do, piloting my awful lists.  Clearly, I have done nothing to innovate this archetype, and will continue to suck in the future piloting my decks to top eight finishes that I clearly don't deserve. 

I don't like old man because I refuse to devote multiple sideboard slots to fish.  Plus, he has summoning sickness and they play swords.  Dubs blue can be problematic as well.  If I'm going to crack my fetches I'd prefer it to be casting Mana Drain or playing a Welder or Shaman.  Solem makes very good use of Mana Crypt, Mana Vault and Sol Ring on turn two.

@Klep:  as much as you'd like to deny it, I actually do have that kind of influence when it comes to Slaver.  People PM me daily asking me about what they should play.  The thing is:  I actually give them good tech, and try to help them out as much as possible.  and then they say:  "Thanks FFY you are a great guy."   I'm sure you know the feeling, as you are one of Vintage's superstars \

[Jacob Orlove]

Everyone: keep the personal attacks out of your posts. This thread is for strategy discussion. Further violations will result in warnings.

[Vegeta2711]

@ Veggies:  If you can't get four Mana against Fish something is wrong.  I have problems getting to six or seven, but almost never four.  Which is why Solem is so good.  If you don't like it, don't play it.  I think it has fantastic synergy with the deck and that it foils the gameplan of two decks that Slaver struggles against.

Just a note here, since apparently you don't know me, I'm almost always the aggro player in these matches. I'm speaking from what I take note of when playing against Shay and my other friend who play CS. Since most CS lists only run 16-18 lands and only 4-5 basic Islands, it's never been all that difficult for me to use either Chalice/Rod or even just a Wasteland or two to stall the game at 2-3 mana for a number of turns. Clearly keeping them off 4 mana the entire game isn't plausible, barring their own card draw not being fruitful, but I don't find it difficult to keep them stalled long enough where the 4 mana is make or break time. And Solemn won't be helping much then.

@Steve
The problem with the Welder argument mainly seems to be, 'well if you can weld him in, why not weld in somebody that wins the game straight-up'. It is indeed another + for the Solemn, but I simply believe there to be better answers you can run.

[Komatteru]

Since most CS lists only run 16-18 lands and only 4-5 basic Islands, it's never been all that difficult for me to use either Chalice/Rod or even just a Wasteland or two to stall the game at 2-3 mana for a number of turns. Clearly keeping them off 4 mana the entire game isn't plausible, barring their own card draw not being fruitful, but I don't find it difficult to keep them stalled long enough where the 4 mana is make or break time.

However, if you can't get to 4 mana, you're pretty much cooked anyway.  As Brian points out, 4 is not really enough mana to function properly, so once you get to 4, you're still not happy until you can get to 6 or 7.  If you're stuck on 2-3 mana, there are few cards you might bring in that are really going to help out that much more in terms of getting your mana up and running.

[Vertigo]

I think something isnt right here; Brian shares information with us, which you could just ignore if you dont like, and the result is that a: everybody but smemmen ignores that solemn actually is a thirst target and a manadrain target; that a has synergy with welder; and increase board control AND CARDADVANTAGE.,

Looking through the posts i think that we need a different attitude an attitude based on empiricism not rationalism, that instead of attacking the card (or the person who kindly shared this information) theoretically we need to test it out empirically. If FFY says it has proven good, then why not try it out?

[WildWillieWonderboy]

What's funny about this thread is that most people aren't listening to one another at all, which makes their arguments sound like pure bunk.

Hopefully this will help to clear the air:

Arguments for Solemn Simulacrum

• Stabilizes mana vs. disruption
• Combat utility vs. aggro and aggro-control
• 2 perms vs. Staks
• Combo with Welder
• Combo with TFK
• Almost always draws a card (otherwise you wouldn't have brought it in

Arguments Against Solemn Simulacrum

• Casting cost
• Doesn't do anything by itself (i.e., the cards it gets can do something and it's less good without Welder or TFK)
• Arguments For and Against Other Cards

• For Old Man of the Sea

• Greater Combat Utility
• Lower cc

[li]Against Old Man of the Sea[/li]

• Doesn't draw cards or get land
• Double Blue cc
• Not an artifact

[li]For Triskelion[/li]

• Greater than Greater Combat Utility
• Combo with Welder
• Combo with TFK
• Kills Many Dudes

[li]Against Triskelion[/li]

• High cc
• Utility negated by Null Rod

[/list]
[/list]

I apologize in advance if I missed a point, but hopefully this will be a useful springboard for colleaguial (respectful) rather than adversarial (asshole) discussion. The idea is not to "defeat" someone you're arguing with, but to use the difference in opinion to create a dichotomy that can drive innovation. You will not change anyone's mind, you can only hope to know their mind and your own mind better than you did previously.

Another question that needs to be asked is "If you are playing Solemn Simulacrum in the board, what's the rest of your sideboard plan?" and by logical extension "If you are playing <something else>, what's the rest of your sideboard plan?" Of course, I don't expect that to be revealed in detail by any of the rival schools, but some suggestion of how many slots are being allocated to each matchup would be helpful. For example, if people are just siding in one Trike instead of however many Jens, there is a strong argument for the versatility of that board. Conversely, if Jens is a catchall solution for a lot of matchups, there's a lot to be said for that too.

[The Atog Lord]

A few notes on how I sideboard against Fish. I cut two of my Mana Drains, since they are far too often useless in the matchup. This, in turn, makes Jens even more difficult for me to cast. Second, because I think that the fish matchup is worth being well-prepared for, I am more than willing to dedicate sideboard space specifically to this match. Right now, I have some Pyroclasms in the board for Fish. Pyroclasm means cutting some number of Welders against Fish, making Jens worse still. Pyrcoclasm kills everybody in KirdApe's deck, and has the added bonus of being a fine card against FCG. You can argue that a card requiring Red mana isn't wonderful against Fish, since they have Wastelands. However, given the very low mana cost of Pyroclasm, it is quite possible to sit on a fetchland until you need the red mana, to avoid walking into Wasteland.

What I can't argue with is that Solem is somewhat castable, and certainly Weldable. However, I contend that there are better cards that could be cast, and better cards that could be Welded. In my experience, the match against Fish isn't usually fought by matching Fish card for card. Rather, Control Slaver usually wins against Fish through bombs. Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will are the two main ways for Slaver to beat Fish, and an entire game can revolve around Slaver's ability to remove Null Rods and Chalices in order to be able to push through those cards. When I sideboard against Fish, then, my strategy is two-fold. I want to make sure that I have answers to problematic cards like Null Rod and Chalice. Removal does this job. The second thing I like to do is to bring in cards that are really really powerful. Pyroclasm wipes their board -- it acts much like a balance in this matchup. Old Man of the Sea can change the outlook of a game like few other cards. I won't argue that Jens himself is a bad card, but I'd rather have something with a bit more impact out of a sideboard slot. That's how I view the match, at least.

[Hi-Val]

I was thinking about Jens before I went to bed last night (insert LOL) and I realized what I think my big issue with it is. It's not that it's not a good card; the issue was what comes out for it. In CS these days, especially in Brian's list, there's an abundance of huge bombs that I am hesitant to cut. What comes out for Jens? What's worth taking out? I'd be really iffy about taking out things like tutors that find Tinker; cards like Gorilla Shaman and Gifts both look great to keep in, though the latter might be cuttable.

So it boils down to: what's worth taking out for Solemns? I think that's what I was so blown away by when I heard the suggestion, because it doesn't seem anywhere near as good as Imperial Seal, for example.

Lightning Edit: Looks like Rich is voicing concerns similar to mine.

[forests failed you]

The way that Fish beats Slaver is that it puts more cards onto the table faster than Slaver, and then uses its on board tricks (many of which are uncounterable or come down so quickly that they slip through the counter wall) to prevent Slaver from putting up any kind of a relevent attack.  Seven times out of ten when I lose to Fish, I lose with five or six cards in hand; and more than likely a few are irrelevent counterspells, maybe a Robot, and my high end blue draw spells.

The conclusion that I came to when I more closely examined, in particular the Burning Slaver V Fish match up, was that they beat me on the board.  Therefore, the most logical sideboard plan, in my opinion is to attack the board and put relevent cards into play.  The card that popped up was Solem Similacrum, especially from old Mirrodin Type II he was one of the most effective cards for building up and protecting board position.  I can appreciate the fact that it may appear at first glance to be counter productive to board out extremely powerful cards for other cards that are plain and simply less powerful.  Comparatively, Solem Similacrum is much weaker than Gifts Ungiven... However, in this particular match up Solem Similacrum provides useful utility that is absolutely essential to overpowering a Fish player's position.

Against Fish, when I am playing Burning Slavery, my ideal game plan is to try and control the board and protect my Mana.  Instead of trying to counter their spells, against Fish I'd much rather let them have their crappy little men and then fight my guys against theirs.  If you can put up enough resistence in the early and mid game, continue to cultivate your Mana, and draw cards you can easily combo them out with Burning Wish ---->Tendrils of Agony.  Or, if you must use the Burning Wish Early, it is also possible to just set up a superior board postion, systematically eliminate their threats, and kill them with robots.

Of course boarding is different against every different Fish deck (Depending upon whether or not they play Vial or Null Rod, et cetera), but theoretically speaking; 

Against UW Fishalos with Aether Vial my board plan is as follows.

+2 Solem Similacrum
+2 Fire/Ice
+2 Stifle*
+1 Rolling Earthquake
+1 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Pyroblast

-4 Mana Drain
-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Gifts Ungiven
-1 Mindslaver
-1 Echoing Truth
-1 Library of Alexandria

*The reason for Stifle in this match up is obviously it is good for protecting your Mana from Wasteland;  However, since Fishalos doesn't play with Null Rod they are much more likely to play Tormod's Crypt against you, which situationally may need to be answered.  not to mention you can also counter Voidmage Prodigy's ability (Which is extrmely relevent mid and late game) as well as countering the Ninjitsu of their Deep Hours.

Against a Fish deck that played Null Rod I would probably board something like this:

+1 Echoing Ruin
+1 Rolling Earthquake
+1 Tendrils of Agony
+2 Fire Ice
+2 Solem Similacrum

-2 Mana Drain
-1 Gifts Ungiven
-1 Burning Wish
-1 Mindslaver
-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Library of Alexandria

Slaver decks have so many powerful bombs that one can easily cut a few in order to make room for spells that attack the board and ensure you are able to cast, protect and abuse the bombs that really matter.  Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, and against Fish in particular Goblin Welder/TFK.

I'm not by any means asserting that Solem is broken, is a must play, or even that anybody else should play him in their sideboards.  However, I have been testing him and he has aspired to be a very strong and synergysitic sideboard plan for Slaver and Fish.  I prefer to fight Fish on the ground with guys, because their guys are very weak and if you can keep them off your life total and protect your lands and moxes it is very easy to Fish out of the water in the mid to late game.

Not to mention it can also be brought in as a strong board option against all Stax variants.  I really like cards that serve double duty in my sideboard; which is part of the reason I think this card is worth consideration in the SB.

[meatloaf161]

Through my numerous testing with solemn i noticed that I can never cast it versus fish or get it into play. I don't think this is a good sideboard card. As said before I don't think the addition of this is warranted when you have better cards to play like a tutor.

Flame removed. Also fixed some grammar-type stuff.  Consider yourself warned. -Klep

[Hi-Val]

I see you are cutting Vamp there-- did you mean Seal, or is it still in the deck?

It seems like the only relevant named card that Fish plays against CS is Null Rod, and that one's a doozie. Do you find that your Shamans just get overpowered too early to blow a Rod? Also, I'm concerned at cutting LOA because that drops down a mana source against a deck that severely attacks mana; I understand the rationale of cutting it because it doesn't make U mana, but in that match, it seems like I'd want all the lands I could get against Fish to run them out of strips and start ramping my own mana. Do you find that Solemn makes up for the missing mana source?

[forests failed you]

Yes.  I have changed my list around quite a bit, and I cut Imperial Seal to make room for some other cards.  My new list with the old sideboard is somewhere in this thread.

Against Null Rod you don't always need to make five mana to kill it.  Many times you can munch a mox and then weld out the Rod.  I am liking Solem right now because he allows you to control the ground, fix your mana, and slow their attack while you build up and kill them.

The Solems had proved quite well in my testing.  I was suggesting it to the community in hopes that others might try it out and report their findings.  I don't know that it is the best solution, but it is one that I have seriously been considering for a week or so.

[Special K]

I tested Simulacrum out twice this weekend at 2 seperate scrubby T1 events with success. First I tried it in the European Slaver list cutting a cunning wish for it and in both the matchups that I played good and bad decks I didn't mind seeing him. And the other event I ran it in a list similiar to Ugo's which I actually played against better decks and against mono Red Uba stax it was game breaking... it flat out won that matchup because I was being kept low on mana the whole game.

EDIT: I'm not saying I would run Simulacrum as a maindeck slot but I want to actually see the card and play it so I ran 1 main as these events only cost $5 to enter and the prizes were small. and for the record I went 3-1 at the first event and 6-0 at the other.

[Zomar]

Card Advantage means nothing if you you can't capitalize on it. Fish is very effective at stopping control slaver's kill conditions. CS is going to beat fish with tinker or a late game yawg will. Tinker means nothing if null rod is in play (so they have to play around that), and yawg will only really be effective if fish's gameplan failed already failed.

Solemn doesn't win you the game like Old Man of The Sea does against fish. By bringing in old man of the sea you are adding to the deck a new kill condition. Solemn is neat, and yes there are synergistic tricks to getting him into play, but all he is going to do is cantrip and grab a land. He can bring you back into the game by recovering you from a tough spot, but Old Man just wins the game. fish cannot beat a protected old man of the sea. Assuming it resolves (you have more counter+draw), they only have a small number of STPs (note to fish players, wth aren't you playing 4 of these?). A resolved Old Man makes it so fish can never attack again. It buys unlimited time by completely nuetralizing their gameplan.

If your argument for Solemn is that he is a multipurpose card which is effective against both fish and stax.... don't you already destroy stax? Assuming they don't get a completely absurd opening, you have welders, shamans, mana drains, forces, and good draw. If that wasn't enough already, you have rack and ruins as well.

[Eandori]

Eandori, I would say that your version of slaver is merely focused towards your meta, not superior to other builds, or inferior by all means. You've done what you needed to do to win. You've defended your version very well justifying your reasons for cards. I would find no reason to run all of the cards that you run, not meaning you shouldn't run those cards.

Mostly, I agree with everything you say.  My list is totally focused towards my meta.  I can totally agree that if your meta is really heavy on one certain deck type (Stax) then R&R, Mox Monkey, Trike, are much more effective main board.  There is DEFINATELY a response to that though.

My list was again, a deck I have worked on to combat EVERYTHING.  I play that deck in the guantlet of all the staple decks of Vintage.  Beyond that, I have buddies that throw jank or 50 card hate decks against me.  Even junk like sligh or discard, etc.  The list I posted deals with ALL of it.  Again, no disagreement that some alterations makes the deck better against Stax, but it gets weaker against the entire 8000+ cardpool of Vintage as a whole.  The welder/trike/rack and ruin you traded into the main deck, really hurt you against many versions of oath, dragon, fish, etc.  Some of the exact cards that people would trade out of my list, are the exact cards I rely on when I go against other decks in the format.  Platinum Angel and Pentavus can be huge against thouse outer rim decks.  My cunning wish main deck may be a 3 mana needed dead card sometimes, but it's a one-per-deck answer for nearly everything and it wins games.

So again, I pretty much agree with what you said.  My list is for a different meta game.  If I was in your area, and all the people ran was Stax, i would probably change to your list too.  but then I would REALLY worry about that random Fish/Oath/Dragon/Goblin/etc. taking me out of T8 contention in the rounds of swiss.  Unfortunately, out here in the Northwest area (Portland/Seattle) that's exactly what happens.  But it's balanced out by the fact that the other decks have to contend with that too.

Going back to the Solemn Simulacrum discussions, I have to agree that if I have 4 open mana on the table versus Fish and other mana denial decks, there is a good chance I'm going to win.  On that note, again... Crucible of Worlds does an AMAZING job fixing my mana and working around mana denial.  With a Crucible on the board, Gifts becomes more then just a game ending play, it becomes something I can use to GET THERE.  A gifts for (Tolarian/Strip Mine/Flooded Strand/Darksteel Citadel) is an amazing board advantage move when I have a crucible.  I can go mana denial, explode with blue mana, fetch out all my colored mana or basics, and have 1 more key card to set up the easier slaver lock (1 welder, citadel, crucible, 3 mana on board, slaver in the yard)  Or maybe even grab a Library of Alexandria if I already have 1 of those four in the GY or on the board, and I can go for draw.

Am I rambling?  Sorry if I am.  Let me sum up what I'm saying

I think my list is far more of a generally solid slaver list then other builds leaning more against Stax etc.  That gives more weakness to stax at the same time it gives more strength to the overall format.  Totally a meta game call.

BUT I stand my ground in stating Gifts Ungiven, and Crucible of Worlds are God's Gift to Control Slaver builds.

Cheers,

[SiegeX]

These questions are mostly geared toward Eandori but I welcome all answers.

1) Since you are running Gifts, I think it would be a good idea to run a Snow-Covered Island, this allows you put up two islands in a gift stack and its not strip-mine'able.

2) Ive seen a few builds of CS that only have one copy of Mindslaver.  With your 3 gifts (2 main, 1 SB), wish, tutors and tinker I think perhaps one Mindslaver is enough and this will open up a slot for something else, perhaps a mox monkey or rack and ruin ? On that note, how important is the fact or fiction, it would be nice to have two open slots for the mox monkey

3) What do you guys think about Shattering Spree's future in this deck? Is it a 1:1 replacment for Rack and Ruin? Upside is that you can take out two artifacts with one less mana, bad side is that it is more red-mana intensive and its a sorcery (also not a target for cunning wish).

Thanks

[Lou]

These questions are mostly geared toward Eandori but I welcome all answers.

1) Since you are running Gifts, I think it would be a good idea to run a Snow-Covered Island, this allows you put up two islands in a gift stack and its not strip-mine'able.

2) Ive seen a few builds of CS that only have one copy of Mindslaver.  With your 3 gifts (2 main, 1 SB), wish, tutors and tinker I think perhaps one Mindslaver is enough and this will open up a slot for something else, perhaps a mox monkey or rack and ruin ? On that note, how important is the fact or fiction, it would be nice to have two open slots for the mox monkey

3) What do you guys think about Shattering Spree's future in this deck? Is it a 1:1 replacment for Rack and Ruin? Upside is that you can take out two artifacts with one less mana, bad side is that it is more red-mana intensive and its a sorcery (also not a target for cunning wish).

Thanks

1.)  I am assuming you Wastleandable?  Snow Covered Island is most definately able to be Strip Mined.

2.)  1 Mindslaver is more than enough to get the job done.

3.)  Shattering Spree will be house, as it gets around Chalice for 1, and that is the setting that hurts you some bad.

[forests failed you]

Shattering Spree is actually terrible in Slaver.  In order to hit two of their artifacts you must have either Lotus or Ruby; or you have to fetch out two Volcanic Islands, which is something that decks where you are playing Spree against are very likely to have.  It is also very significant that in order for Spree to remove a Chalice for one you must have dubs red or else it does nothing.  I think that Rack and Ruin is strictly a better card for Slaver to be using at this time. 

Spree however seems to be an extremely powerful tool for Uba Stax decks to use in their sideboards.

[Lou]

You make a good point Brian, but I am not so sure that it won't have its uses.

[SiegeX]

1.)  I am assuming you Wastleandable?  Snow Covered Island is most definately able to be Strip Mined.

Yes, excuse me I meant Wasteland'able.

Speaking from an outsiders perspective, I think that a combination of Eandori's CS build and the BS build that was recently listed in an SCG article (posted below for your convienience) would be pretty optimal for a catch-all type deck.   The main differences between the two with respect to Eandori's deck are as follows:

-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Strip Mine
-1 Gifts Ungiven
-1 Cunning Wish
-1 MindSlaver
-1 Goblin Welder
-1 Platinum Angel
-1 Fact or Fiction

+2 Gorilla Shaman
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Burning Wish
+1 Mystical Tutor
+1 Imperial Seal
+1 Mana Vault *
+1 Triskelion *

• I think the removal of one goblin welder and one Mindslaver is justified.  Two Gorilla Shaman would be great in their place.
• Crucible of Worlds looks rather strong and I would definitely want that over the Mana Vault.
• If the Crucible stays then Strip Mine stays without saying.
• I think that two gifts is justified.
• Im still undecided with the choice between Platinum Angel, Triskelion or Duplicant.  Im thinking a Plat in the main and Duplicant in the SB.
• With two gifts mainboard, I think a Mystical Tutor or Imperial Seal would be more advantageous than a Fact or Fiction.  Im going to go with the Mystical over Imperial because even though it can't tutor up a welder or mindslaver, it can tutor up all the other broken cards at *instant* speed and we can always just tutor a gifts for the slaver or welder if need be.
• This leads to the decision of burning vs cunning wish.  Right now the cunning wish can pull out another Gifts, disenchant, StP, Rack and Ruin, echoing truth, REB.  The burning wish can lead to an alternate win condition with tendrils, reuse a Timewalk after resolving yawgwin, grab pyroclasm etc.  Personally I think the cunning wish looks like the better choice because its adding to the strenght of the deck not tying to give it another out, not to mention is on-color.
  

So to summerize the changes I would make to Eandori's deck:

-1 Fact or Fiction
-1 Goblin Welder
-1 Mindslaver
+2 Gorilla Shaman
+1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Platinum (Undecided)
+1 Triskelion/Duplicant (Undecided)