[Discussion] Unrestrictions?

[Evenpence]

This is not the thread to talk about how Mishra's Workshop, or Gifts Ungiven (or any other card right now) is broken.  I want to say that up front.

We're not going to see any restrictions in Vintage in March.  If you disagree with me, that's fine, and I'm glad you do as that shows we have free-thinkers here on TMD, but you're wrong.

Unban?
Chaos Orb
Falling Star

IMPOSSIBLE
Ancestral Recall
Balance
Black Lotus
Burning Wish
Channel
Chrome Mox
Crop Rotation
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Fastbond
Imperial Seal
Lion’s Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Mind’s Desire
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mystical Tutor
Necropotence
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Timetwister
Time Walk
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Yawgmoth’s Will

PROBABLY NEVER GOING TO COME OFF, BUT MAYBE DOWN THE LINE
Fact or Fiction
Gush
Memory Jar
Mox Diamond
Trinisphere
Windfall
Yawgmoth’s Bargain

UNLIKELY
Black Vise
Dream Halls
Enlightened Tutor
Grim Monolith
Mind Twist
Personal Tutor

POSSIBLE BUT NOT PROBABLE
Entomb
Library of Alexandria
Regrowth
Time Spiral

THEY'RE GONNA COME OFF
Frantic Search
Voltaic Key


This thread is made for disagreements.  I went VERY LIBERAL on the unlikely section.  Yawgmoth's Bargain will probably never be unrestricted, for instance.  However, it's there for discussion.  I can make changes, especially if I missed something.

EDIT:  I went really liberal on EVERY section.

Unbanning and unrestricting the 'dexterity cards' isn't that hard to do.  All we need is special rules about them.  When a Chaos Orb is activated, for instance, players may move their cards around, but no card may be more than 1 inch from another card, etc.

Disagree with me and with the list so we can talk about things.

Remember, I'm being extremely liberal with the lists, so if you see some card that's down a category or two, discuss it, but don't just outright go:  "What?  That card is way too good to be under 'unlikely,' I mean, maybe some day, when this happens, etc, it could come off, but for right now, it's just insanely good."

If I was stingy with the lists, we wouldn't even have this thread, as I would just say "nothing's even close to coming off except Voltaic Key and Frantic Search."

The only things that are even possible for coming off in March (I believe) are Frantic Search and Voltaic Key.  However, that's not to say we can't discuss other things, like Entomb or Library.

I don't personally think that Library is overpowered, and wouldn't have any problems if it were unrestricted.

[Jacob Orlove]

Time Walk is clearly impossible, for iconic and monetary reasons, in addition to the fact that it is stupid broken.

Grim Monolith and Dream Halls, though, are both much closer in power to your unlikely category than to the impossible category. Personal Tutor and Windfall are the only other cards on the impossible list that I could see moving to unlikely, although Enlightened Tutor, Burning Wish, and Trinisphere could at least have arguments made for them.

Oh, and they will not errata Chaos Orb or Falling Star until they change their policy on errata. It's much easier to leave those two banned than to basically completely rewrite them.

Frantic Search is awful and should come off the list in March. Library is like Trinisphere in certain metagames, though--if it hits turn 1, some matchups are over.

[Evenpence]

Yeah, I took Time Walk off like, seconds after I posted the thread, because I'm a dumbass for even suggesting that it was unlikely.

EDIT:  Also, any card talked about being moved from impossible into unlikely will be done to create more discussion, just as long as people don't become dumbasses like me and suggest cards like Time Walk.

[Machinus]

While many restricted cards are much weaker in today's environment than they were years ago, it is still healthy to stay on the safe side of things.

Dexterity cards are never going to happen, obviously.

Voltaic Key needs to come off.

Bargain, Windfall, Memory Jar, and FoF have pretty clear cases for staying on the list. Search, Black Vise, Monolith, Time Spiral, Mind Twist, LoA, and Regrowth are less versatile, but all have potential for significant degeneracy and should probably not be considered. That leaves only a few cards as future candidates for unrestriction: Entomb, Enlightened Tutor, Dream Halls, and perhaps others. Even these cards are potentially dangerous, as I'm sure combo players can elaborate on.

[Evenpence]

Voltaic Key wasn't even on the list until you said something.  Somehow, they didn't make it over from Wizards.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=judge/resources/sfrvintage

It's still on there.  Apparently my cut/paste function doesn't like the words:  "Voltaic Key."  I counted 51 on both lists now though, so I don't think there's any missing.

If there are, please tell me so we can add them.

I agree Voltaic Key should come off.

[Jacob Orlove]

Since it wasn't on your list, I just assumed the key had been unrestricted at some point. It's certainly not good enough to run in anything, much like Frantic Search.

Compare Grim Monolith to, say, Dark Ritual. Or Elvish Spirit Guide. Or Tinder Wall. It's just fundamentally not very good. The real advantage to it is if you can play it and then wait a turn, but investing two mana now to get three mana next turn is hardly spectacular. It's good with Voltaic Key, but so what? A two card Sol Ring isn't going to break the format.

Dream Halls just is not something that *could* break the format. It's a 3UU enchantment--if you can resolve that, why haven't you already won with Gifts or Tinker or Welder/Thirst or anything?

Regrowth really isn't much better than numerous alternatives. Even if it somehow starts seeing play as a two-of in combo, is that so bad? It's not like the format is suddenly broken, and people can play 4 copies in their casual decks again.

Entomb is good, but so hard to evaluate at this point.

Enlightened Tutor is just about on par with Burning Wish. I don't think either should come off, even though they're clearly weaker than other cards on the list.

Black Vise is stupid. Unrestricted, it would warp/dominate the format.

[Evenpence]

Same here.  I had to actually go back to wizards to check if it was still on there.  Sure, enough, it was.

It's getting moved to COMING OFF.

[Komatteru]

PROBABLY NEVER GOING TO COME OFF, BUT MAYBE

Enlightened Tutor - Trix.
Fact or Fiction - Never.  Did you see BBS in 2000?
Gush - Never.  Did you play back in 2003?
Personal Tutor - A pretty terrible card that sees no play, nor would it as a 4 of, since it can't get Ancestral Recall.
Trinisphere - Workshop will have to go first, or somehow, Workshops will have to become terrible.
Windfall - Never.  A marginal card as a 1-of that is outrageous when you can play multiples.  On it's own, it's pretty bad, but when you can play 4 of them, it's too easy to play this, follow into Wheel or Jar, and then follow with a few more of these.

UNLIKELY
Entomb - There really are better tutors these days.
Grim Monolith - Not a chance. I lick my chops at the chance to play 4 Grim Monolith in Belcher.  In all seriousness, that card is outrageous in Belcher.  Dodges Chalices and Welds in and out of play to give 3 mana.  It's been an all-star for me in Belcher, and I don't think you'd want me to have access to 4 of them.
Memory Jar - Is there something wrong with you?
Mind Twist - Mind Twist in multiples is pretty devastating.  A first turn twist for 1-2 followed by another one on turn 3 or 4 is game ending.  No one likes discard, and it's just not fun to play against.  Although Misdirection makes this card much more risky, having to play MisD to guard against Mind Twist is reason enough to leave Twist restricted.
Time Spiral - Disasterous when you have multiples.  Time Spiral into Time Spiral is absolutely fucking nuts.  Recall High Tide c. 1999.
Yawgmoth�s Bargain - Is there something wrong with you?

[forests failed you]

Enlightened Tutor, Personal Tutor, Voltaic Key, Frantic Search,

all seem fair enough to come off sometime. 

Please god, no chaos or or falling star.  Not because they are good, but because they are so annoying and a rules nightmare.  It would never happen, but it would suck if it did.

[Vegeta2711]

The only 'unlikely' card on that list I could ever see coming off is Entomb. And considering this format treats the grave like it's second home, I wouldn't expect it anytime soon.

[Manpriest]

The only 'unlikely' card on that list I could ever see coming off is Entomb. And considering this format treats the grave like it's second home, I wouldn't expect it anytime soon.

Agreed, and while the dredge mechanic at first glance makes it seem as if this card isn't as powerful as before as feeding cards into your grave becomes less and less of a chore, feeding that one imp to the yard can be ridiculously broken.  I think 4 entombs could give tog or dragon quite a push.

[Dante]

The only 'unlikely' card on that list I could ever see coming off is Entomb. And considering this format treats the grave like it's second home, I wouldn't expect it anytime soon.

Agreed, and while the dredge mechanic at first glance makes it seem as if this card isn't as powerful as before as feeding cards into your grave becomes less and less of a chore, feeding that one imp to the yard can be ridiculously broken.  I think 4 entombs could give tog or dragon quite a push.

Yes, the 2003 World Championship would have turned out quite differently with 4 entombs legal.  Dragon would be a beast.  Not to mention all of a sudden it becomes REALLY easy to get a Belcher in the graveyard for 1 mana now....and that's just thinking about it for 0.00048 seconds...

[Evenpence]

I made some changes.

Please discuss, instead of just flaming me (JD).  I'm just altering the list to how you all think it should look.  Some of you think Entomb is ridiculously overpowered and other ones that it's not overpowered at all.

Because of this, I'm also going to put Entomb under 'possible.'

Regrowth also makes it to the possible list.

[forests failed you]

everything about your initial idea of unrestricting cards like Black Vise, Library, and busted tutors is very poor.  there are maybe four cards tops that could be unrestricted without doing stupid things to the format.  If I wasn't on such close watch for my antagonistic behavior I would have flamed you too! jk.  however there are definately a few duds on the list that are fair game to come off.

[Thug]

I think the only 4cc+ cards worth restriction are Desire (because of uncounterability (sp?)) and Jar (because of Welder and Shop)

Spiral, Bargain, Dream Halls just cost too much.
Spiralling into Spiral is great, but you should win anyway if you resolve one with the business cards you get form it.
Bargain doesn't even always make the cut right now in combo decks. You could run a deck based around it, but it would be pretty fragile.
Dream Halls requires at least 2 more cards too even do anything...

As long as Crop and Academy stay restricted I have no problem at all with the above cards.

I guess Belcher could use 1 or 2 more Grim Monolith, but I think thats not reason to keep in restricted.
Grim + Power Artifact might be a reason to keep it restricted, but I'm not sure if this would be superior to other 2 card combo's.

I'm actually slightly scared of Frantic Search, because it becomes a very good card if you can rely on having one all the time.

I would love to see Burning Wish come off, since it has so many uses.
But before Burning Wish comes of, Personal has to be unrestricted first.

Koen

[Sagath]

I would love to see Burning Wish come off, since it has so many uses.

No.


That is all.

[PucktheCat]

I would love to see Burning Wish come off, since it has so many uses.

OMG I love decks with four Yawg. Wills.

[Evenpence]

Time Spiral is now under Possible but not Probable.

Time Spiraling into Time Spiral is sick, yes, but how long does it take Recall High Tide to go off?  Turn 3 at the earliest?  We have more reliable decks these days that aren't as intensive with dead cards (see Gifts).

I don't think Time Spiral would be particularly dangerous to unrestrict.

I think we would have a new Tier 1 deck on our hands, but it wouldn't be the most dominant deck in the format.

It won't happen though, so the point is moot.

[Jacob Orlove]

I would love to see Burning Wish come off, since it has so many uses.

OMG I love decks with four Yawg. Wills.

Wait, what? Decks RIGHT NOW have more than 4 MD copies of Will, thanks to Demonic, Vamp, Grim Tutor, Gifts/Recoup, etc. etc. If Will was in the board, half these tutors couldn't even get it. Burning Wish is good, but it's nowhere near Lion's Eye Diamond. Just because the two were restricted at the same time, we shouldn't conflate their respective power levels.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Regrowth and Frantic Search are just awful.  They really should not be restricted, and still wouldn't be played if unrestricted.

[Komatteru]

I'd much prefer to have Will in my board.  I really like being able to play multiple times in the same game actually.  Sometimes, a small Will is really good early in the game, but if I'm using it as a primary win condition, then I can't really do that.

Plus, Will in the board saves it from Tormod's Crypt, Extract, Jester's Cap, and other random filth.  I can say that I miss the flexibility of the Wish board in storm combo.  I felt Death Long was more flexible in that it was more resiliant to hate even if it was not quite as fast.

[PucktheCat]

Those tutors (the better ones) would still be played, could get Wish if necessary, and Black Lotus the rest of the time.  2cc tutors that don't lose you a card are miles better than anything else out there (except Demonic Tutor).

Not to mention, as Dizzle said, you can only play Will once without Wish.  Will setting up another Will is truly retarded.

[Harkius]

My two cents.

First, Frantic Search isn't good...unless you are running several of them. Then it starts to get a bit stupid. So does Time Spiral. I sincerely doubt that it will be coming off the list any time soon.

Second, I would love to see Library come off the list, and not just because I like the idea of control decks being dominant again (by which I mean much better than anything esle Rather, I'd like to see the price go through the roof when people realize just how abusive this thing is in multiples. When this was allowed as a 4-of, it was nicknamed The Cheating Machine. Control is not the only deck that can abuse this. Any deck that is capable of playing more than one card in a turn is going to run four of these. Think about it. You Gifts to seven, tap it, play a card, tap another one, play a second card, tap a third Library? How stupidly abusive is that? Sure, you are already going to win that turn,  but that is only the MOST abusive situation. Think about having just two. Anytime you can get to seven cards, you get +2. For a land drop. Expect this to stay on the list for a while.

If it does, miraculously, leave, expect Fastbond to start showing up a little more often as people want to get more lands into play.

Third, Voltaic Key can easily come off. This is pretty much a universally agreed upon statement.

Cheers,
Harkius

[Vegeta2711]

Time Spiral is now under Possible but not Probable.

Time Spiraling into Time Spiral is sick, yes, but how long does it take Recall High Tide to go off?  Turn 3 at the earliest?  We have more reliable decks these days that aren't as intensive with dead cards (see Gifts).

I don't think Time Spiral would be particularly dangerous to unrestrict.

I think we would have a new Tier 1 deck on our hands, but it wouldn't be the most dominant deck in the format.

It won't happen though, so the point is moot.

You do realize High Tide is just a storm combo deck that can run 8-12 counters right? It's the original control-combo deck.

[Cross]

No one has mentioned mox diamond. Isn't the diamond completely terrible? Not only is it incredible card disadvantage, it's not played in anything at all. Dedicated combo decks do no run enough land to make it useable, and control decks can't handle the card disadvantage. Shop decks with crucible might run it, but finding space for it in good stax decks makes it seem entirely unnecessary.

[Juggernaut GO]

frantic search and time spiral should never be unrestricted.  Frantic search alone  was a center point to my deck at beanie yesterday.  minds desire for 14 with a workshop slaver deck is good, and frantic search is what enables minds desire to be so broken.   I desired for over 10  in 6 different games and each time frantic search was involved.

[Baron.Pocket]

4 Librairies is just something impossible. That would be, by far, too much insane.

Due to his cost, I don't think Regrowth should be unrestricted. 4 x Regrowth, 4 x Merchant Scroll, 1 x Ancestrall. And ya got too much ancestralls per game. Add some "restricted l33t g00dies"  around and regrowth become the 2+ x of every other brokeness.

Unrestricting Grim monolith could lead to a new !COMBO! : Power Artifact, Voltaic Construct, Grim Monolith!

Just kidding here but still, Grim is too much of an accelerator to let some decks run four of it.

Voltaic Key? I don't really see the !DANGER! of it.. 4 x Voltaic, 4 x Timevault ( with the old wording of the card? ) Hehe I know it does not work. NO TIME COUNTER. But still, I try to find a !DANGER! for Voltaic key being unrestricted and I don't see any.

[Juggernaut GO]

I'd be happy if they banned darksteel colossus on march 1st.  If you want to talk about a card that warps metagames.  Since they will never restrict mana drain, they may as well take away the most unbalanced win condition ever.

But again, if all you want to do is tinker for colossus all day long in an 8 round tournament, that is your personal preference.  It wont stop me from saying its stupid or unfair.

[Komatteru]

Oh, yeah, having DSK banned would be great.  When Slaver Tinkers up Slaver, Trike, Pentavus, or Platz, or when Stax tinkers up Sundering Ben, Karn, or even Trinisphere, (or even Combo tinkering up Jar, and I think I'm like the last person in the community to think that Jar is still amazing) it doesn't feel nearly as stupid or moronic as when any deck Tinkers up DSK.  Given that it's usually a no brainer, no "what do I pick" (Stax and Slaver have that problem), situation that just wins in 2 turns (1 with Walk), I wouldn't be upset to see it go. 

Tinker is overly good, but DSK makes it stupid.  You'd hear a lot less complaints about Tinker if DSK were gone.

It'll never happen though, which is too bad.

[Juggernaut GO]

I agree that all the other cards you listed are broken and great, but they do not automaticly win the game when they hit, except a slaver if you have the 4 mana to activate it, or jar if your running combo.  U can chump block a titan for as many turns as you have a creature, with colossus it gives way to good of a win condition that is nearly unanswerable and I firmly believe it is warping the format to the extent 4x trinisphere did.  What happens to a deck like gifts when colossus goes?  I would imagine they focus more on the combo finish, or possibly add a titan in place of colossus.  Either way, it gives Non-gifts decks an easier time of dealing with an early tinker.

Not every deck is designed to run bounce spells maindeck which is literally one of a few answers to colossus.