Discussion, Burning Slavery. Building, playing, insights, and so much more.

[forests failed you]

Its been awhile since we had a Slaver thread to discuss tech, et cetera.  I thought I would start one.

Particularly, I would like to examine builds of what I have dubbed Burning Slaver;  That is to say the newer versions of CS that have come to run Burning Wish and a much more combo oriented set of win conditions.  (I can hear Rich off in the background somehwere sighing quitely to himself... "Burning Slaver and CS are the same deck!").  In my opinion, the difference between my build of Slaver and Rich's build is paramount;  thatx is to say it is the Difference between Meandeck Gifts and Shortbus Gifts.. Both decks clearly do many of the same things; however they elect different methods of ultimately executing their game plan.  BS and CS are the same way, and I think that the Burning Slaver build has now won enough P9 in the hands of several different player to deserve its own discussion.

One of the major things to realize about building BS, (in fact one of the major things aside from core cards, that it does have in common with regular CS) is that their is no ideal, pie in the sky, build of the deck.  Burning Slaver becomes sucessful when its pilot properly assesses the metagame and builds the deck so that it will play ideal match ups and have the situationally correct cards at specific important moments.  Which is part of the reason that my teamates and I have been so successful at winning with this deck;  I have learned through experience how to evaluate and tweak a deck against the metagame.

That being said here is the most recent incarnation of my list that Samite Healer piloted to a second place finish day one at SCG Richmond.  (I scrubbed out and finished a lowly third at the same event... frown)



Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Artifact Creatures
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan

Artifact Lands
1 Darksteel Citadel

Creatures
3 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force Of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor

Legendary Artifacts
1 Mindslaver

Sorceries
1 Burning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Basic Lands
3 Island

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

Snow-Covered Basic Lands
1 Snow-covered Island

Sideboard:
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fire / Ice
1 Pyroblast
1 Rack And Ruin
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Deep Analysis
3 Duress
1 Echoing Ruin
1 Rolling Earthquake
1 Tendrils Of Agony


Points I'd like to make about this list and some of the specific card choices that I elected to make.

Firstly, Control Slaver's arch nemesis, the Joker to its Batman, the Kryptonite to its Superman; is and always has been Null Rod and Chalice of the Void.  These cards suck for CS decks to play against as they set back its Mana production and have traditionally rendered its Robots big motionless hunks of metal.  I built my deck to play around these specific hate cards, and to be able to easily and efficiently remove them should they slip through my counter wall. 

Duplicant
COW
and Titan /  all laugh at Null Rod, while handily doing their jobs.  Against Fish Titan is a beating as it disables their Mana base.  Especially if it comes down while they are tapped out of White mana (because they have to rip in order to cast their Swords to Plowshares or activate their Stormscape Apprentices.  Secondly, Duplicant can remove annoying Meddling Mages naming TFK, or Brainstorm even under a Null Rod.  Tech.  Also, although many people disagree with running Triskellion over Duplicant;  here is my defese:  Yes, Trike is good against opposing Welders.  You got me there.  However, Duplicant can still remove a random Welder in the mirror.  (How often do you really newb it up so much that you allow your opponent to have multiple welders in play?  seriously guys?)  Secondly, Trke doesn't do very much against Oath.  Dups on the other hand is a huge problem for that deck if you can get a Welder going... In many scenerios it actually just makes it impossible for them to win.  Bonus.  Not to metnion against UBA Stax you can dup their guys under a null rod (or just hard cast it as a 2/4 for six and beat down for twenty against THE JESTER, but that is another story all together).  Not to mention Trike does nothing against Psychatog... Dup wins.  Trike does NOTHING against DSC.  DUPWINS AGAIN PWNAGE!!!  I play Duplicant an.d that is why

I also play COW for a variety of reasons.  Against Stax my road to victory is almost always SLaver locking the long game.  COW allows you to slaver infinately with Citadel.  A neat Trick.  It is also a good early game Tinker target against Stax that isn't hosed by Null Rods as Pentavus is.  Cow also allows you to Gifts for a Strip Mine every turn which is quite useful/.

So that is my explanation of the robots.

GIFTS - I don't understand how anybody would ever elect to play FOF over this card, even though I once held the same attitude.  It seems like infinity ago that I thought FOF was a better card.  I just don't belive that anymore.  Gifts is busted and it is in so many ways unfair.  It is an Entomb for your welders to go apeshit with, it tutors for anything in the deck.  It says tutor for four cards, that is the epitiomy of unfair in Vintage.  Usually a resolved Gifts for the proper cards wins you the game on the spot.  If you didn't win you were either screwed from the start or you got the wrong cards.  because this is seriously a very very powerful effect.

Burning Wish targerts - Rolling Earthquake, Tendrils, Deep ANalysis, and Echoing Ruin.  Between the four cards you have an anwer to everything in the metagame that isn't a land.  YOu can kill Chalice and Rods.  You can Wrath away a team, and you can draw cards in the mirror.  The main reason I wanted the Tendrils kill is because Slaver traditonalyl does very poorly when short timed.  That is in turns.  This gives you soething to do to actually turn those one point draws into three point wins when you have everything you need except time is against you.

I play a very diverse sideboard with a lot of different cards.  12 different names in 15.  The key was the Duresses allow you to pwn Gifts and Tendrils fairly handily post board.  Against Agro with mages I wanted multiple solutions to mage.  So I have Pyro, REB, EQUAKE, FIRE ICE and Pyrite spellbomb. 

I'm also sporting the one and only Solem Similacrum who won me several games.  This card is very strong. I cut LoA to make room for an extra Island to give him better synergy with the deck.  I don't regret it for a second.  LoA is a weak card that is only useful in a handful of match ups.  For every one game it steals for you it randomly loses you a half a game.  This list is so powerful event though it steals more games than it screws you,  well, you just don't need to steal games the deck is more than capable of winning with needing to steal. 

Discuss... New Tech.... Critiques of choices....  experiences with the deck (with or against), innovations.....  Lets go!!

Cheers,
FFY

[Moxlotus]

Has only running 1 Slaver ever been a problem?  We've always put 2 in our test guantlet and I notice that Shay runs 2.  It is a lot easier to find a Slaver to Thirst away when you have 2 since, it seems to me, that Slaver is the best thing ever to Weld into play 90% of the time.

One minor thing--why 3 Island and 1 Snow covered island?  Why not 2/2--only 1 pimp snow-covered?

Also, I would really love to see what you add/remove against the popular matchups with a SB like that.  Are there some cards that NEVER come in and are solely wish targets?

[God_Campbell]

Personally I have switched one of my MD shamans with a Rack and Ruin and have been loving it, COTV's are a real problem in my area and these help out alot.
Another change I have made is to run trike over Titan for the simple fact that in my area there is less duals and more cities and such.
But other then that my maindeck is almost the same, I to noticed the lack of LAO was nothing but sexy goodness another basic island is always good

[The Atog Lord]

I’d like to respond to a few points.

First off, congratulations for doing so well at SCG.

LOA
I really like what the card does in the Control Slaver mirror. I'll leave it at that.

Duplicant
This is a great card. It isn’t better or worse per se than Trike, and I agree with every advantage you listed. It is a card that Samite has run long, long ago in Control Slaver with great effect. It is similar to Trike, but stronger in some matches and weaker in others. I’m not going to call it incorrect for one minute.

Crucible of Worlds
I tested this card. I even had it in my deck the last time there was a 2-Power-Tournies-In-One-Weekend. But I keep coming up with the same result: it isn’t good enough to justify a maindeck spot.Against Stax, for three mana, I’d rather have Rack and Ruin. In just about any other match, I’d rather Tinker up something else. On the matter of infinite Slaver lock, I haven’t run a way to get infinite in nearly a year, and haven’t missed it one bit. Going infinite, in such a metagame as this, is win-more. Against almost every deck, a few Mindslaver activations does the trick. Running a card to help you win after you’ve already Mindslavered the opponent is very much win more.

Gifts Ungiven
This card dances into and out of my maindeck often. I don’t have anything negative to say about the card. I like Fact or Fiction more at times, whereas at other times Gifts is stronger. I maindeck Fact or Fiction right now instead of Gifts, because in a situation where I have no hand and no decent board, I’d usually rather have the Fact or Fiction. In an undeveloped position, Gifts is usually better.

And now, the one maindeck card that hasn’t been in previous versions of Slaver:

Burning Wish, as an answer
As a general solution, instead of a single catch-all like Burning Wish, I maindeck several answer cards. I admit, I haven’t tested Burning Wish, though have tested Cunning Wish quite a bit. The main problem with a Wish is that it takes a lot of mana to use. Echoing Truth, which you also run, deals with most of the situations you’d need to use Burning Wish for. And Echoing Truth deals with Colossus, too, unlike Burning Wish.

Burning Wish, as a kill mechanism
Above, I wrote that Crucible of Worlds is a win-more card. But in comparison to Burning Wish as a kill mechanism, it is nothing. If you can cast eight spells, and then have 3RBB open, you don’t need an extra card to win. You’ve certainly won already. I can’t remember going off with Yawgmoth’s Will, casting a bunch of spells, and then not winning the game. And that includes games where I’ve been hit with Jester’s Cap.

Burning Wish, killing in One Turn
There were zero games at Richmond where I had gone off with Yawgmoth’s Will, was about to win, and couldn’t get there in time. Part of the reason for that may be that my build is better at killing the opponent than yours is. Colossus is larger than Titan, and tramples too. And, in addition to his other virtues, Trike combines with Welders and Artifacts to become a very quick player-killing machine. In short, my contention with using Burning Wish as a way to win is that it solves problems the deck doesn’t have, or at least problems I haven’t encountered. Beating someone after a giant Yawgmoth’s Will, and killing someone in extra turns, have both not been issues for me.

Burning Wish, Sideboard Killer
The main argument I will make against Burning Wish is that it does really awful things to your sideboard. Our maindecks aren’t that different – you have different “board control� cards than I do, and different large robots, but the numbers match up pretty closely. Our sideboards, however, are worlds apart. A huge constraint on your deck building is Burning Wish. You need to sideboard enough Wish targets to make the card worthwhile. I can spend fifteen cards improving my matchups without being concerned with card type.

On the other hand…

Despite my criticisms, there is nothing in your maindeck that seems too bad. While I don’t think it is great, playing Burning Wish isn’t like maindecking Tarpan or anything – there are situations where it will be quite good. And with the exception of that one card, there is nothing in your deck that hasn’t seen play in Control Slaver before.

Which brings me to my main point, and my main criticism. The name. I just don’t see how it is not Control Slaver. Which cards are new to the deck, and have not already seen play in past Control Slaver builds?

Crucible was already in Ugo’s winning lists:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=15237

Duplicant has been in Samite’s Control Slaver builds since long, long ago:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=2337

Sundering Titan – here’s a list I posted in 2004:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=18903.msg309494#msg309494

Darksteel Citaldel – Ran that in 2004:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=18081.0

Gorilla Shaman – check out ELD’s list from 2004:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=15444.0

Finally, as for Burning Wish:
Here’s a post from 2004 of someone playing it in Control Slaver:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=15420.0

Here’s another player running it in 2004:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=15573.0

Here’s a post of mine from 2004 where I dismiss it in Control Slaver:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=15900.0

And above all, here’s an earlier deck running Burning Wish:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=16622

In conclusion, while I don’t agree 100% with your maindeck choices, they can all be justified. I’m not calling them wrong or anything. The item that I find the most fault with is the naming of the deck. Burning Slaver has nothing in it that isn’t found in Control Slaver in past builds, or moreover in SSB.

[marcb]

I know that someone out there will shoot me for what i'm about to propose, but I have tried to play burning slaver a lot, and although I like the combo finish I hve to agree with AtogLord that if you can cast eight spells and still have 3RBB for wish and tendrils, then you probably already won.  Additionally, I agree the burning wish really kills the SB.  I have recently been trying to play a build with time vault and flame fusillade (I took out the burning wish and one mox monkey). Most people will say that I lost two MD spots, which is not entirely true, but I gained 4 SB slots, which are worth more to me anyway since most games are played post SB. Also, unlike needing to play 8 spells and still have the six mana needed for BW and tendrils, I have won with this combo on turn 3 after welding in time vault. As a side note I have replaced the other mox monkey for a rack and ruin, which I have enjoyed.  Finally, I have been toying with the titan since many decks I play don't have duals, and I don't like destroying my ownn lands. I have tried Colossus and Pentavus.  Pentavus has been ok. Tapping pentivites with flame fusillade to kill the opponent or kill an angel reminds me a little of rolling earthquake FTW.  The biggest advantage to this strange decklist again has been freeing up my SB, while still maintaining a real combo finish not seen in traditional CS lists.  Any thoughts would be really appreciated, especially from all the experts out there (FFY, Atog Lord, Samite, etc).

Marc

[The Atog Lord]

Marc, a fine idea you have. But, let's take it a bit further. The two-card combo being in the deck makes Tutors and Gifts much better than before. And, since we have such a clean kill mechanism, maybe we don't need to concern ourselves with the r0bots as much. In other words, Marc, your idea, if taken to its logical conclusion, will result in Brassman's SSB deck.
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=16513
This deck, with its much stronger search power than Control Slaver, can leverage the two-card combo better than Control Slaver itself can. It is quite a strong deck.

[PucktheCat]

From where I stand, maindeck Colossus and the Burning Wish kill look like they serve almost the same function.  They give you a way to end a game in a timely manner when you already have a large advantage.  Wish is better when you draw it randomly, because of the Wish targets.  It also wins the game a turn faster than DSC, unless you can Time Walk twice.  Colossus, on the other hand, doesn't require Will to be effective.

I maindeck Fact or Fiction right now instead of Gifts, because in a situation where I have no hand and no decent board, I’d usually rather have the Fact or Fiction. In an undeveloped position, Gifts is usually better.

I think the second sentance should read "In a developed position, Gifts is usually better."  Otherwise this doesn't make much sense.  Assuming that is the case, I agree completely.  I would add the additional point that, in general, when a Slaver deck has a developed hand and board it is already winning.  In that situation Fact may be weaker than Gifts, but it is probably enough to win.

[marcb]

Atog lord. Your point is very well taken.  Your sentiments are exactly the reason you don't play with BW for a combo finish. I guess what I would like to know is if someone wants to play some form of combo finish to have an option out of positions traditional CS might have no business winning through would you choose the tradidional BW for tendrils, or does this new idea have merit? The debate whether or not CS benefits from a combo finish at all is another important question worthy of discussion, but I'm assuming (a very big assumption) that it might and asking the question, now what? What's the best combo to add? Also if FFY has any comments, since I know he seems to like the combo idea. What does he think about the flamevault addition the BS?

Thanks Atog Lord for the reply

Marc

[forests failed you]

I disagree with you about Burning Wish doing awful things to my sideboard.  The board that I have comprised is so tight and versitile that it is actually amazing.  As for my Wish targets I have no problem boarding each and every single one into different match ups.  I bring in Deep in the control Mirror, Ruin against Stax and Fish, Equake against Agro, and Tendrils every other game.  Also, with the Tendrils in the board I will often board out my Welders and Shamans and just attack with Duresses, Rebs and go for a quick Tendrils Kill.  (especially when there isn't much time left going into game three).

Rich, I think you misunderstand.  I never claimed to be the first person to play with any of these cards.  I actually don't care about innovating, or making up a new deck, or any of that stuff.  I care about winning games and money.  End of story.  I put together the list I did because it gave me the specific tools that I wanted in my deck that would allow me to win a large percentage of the games in a given field and metagame.  And my list has done that with gusto for me.  I believe that my list is unique enough that I could give it its own title and people would know exactly what I was talking about.  And they do.  You can argue all you want that it shouldn't exist or that it is the same thing as Control Slaver until you are blue in the face.  The fact of the matter is this:  Burning Slaver is the name of my specific build of Control Slaver, and when you say it everybody knows what you are talking about.  When I started playing it, the deck was different enough from the other control slaver lists in circulation that it was distinguishable just by looking at it.

By the way did you find any lists of Control Slaver playing Rolling Earthquake and Echoing Ruin?  Just curious.  



Burning Wish isn't just a combo finish.  Burning Wish is a two mana sorcery that answers every single card in the format that bothers Slaver.  In addition it is also a draw spell, and a win condition.  There is no other card in the format with that much versitility, sans cunning wish which costs even more mana.  The key to running Burning Wish plus tutors means taht you don't have to clutter your maindeck with awful situational spells that you don't need like Fire/Ice and Rack and Ruin.  Those spells suck in half of the match ups and I wouldn't want them anywhere near my maindeck in game one.  Wish allows you an easy way to answer problematic cards that slip through your counterspells without devoting maindeck spots to answering situational threats.  In addtion, instead of playing weak spells like Rack and Ruin and Fire / Ice you instead get to play with additonal Tutors, which increase the power level of the deck significantly, and allow you to find your broken restricted cards faster... Much in the same way taht Gifts based drain combo decks do.

[The Atog Lord]

Echoing Ruin is your tech and your tech alone. I've used Shattering Pulse before, which is a lot like Echoing Ruin except that it is an instant and has buyback.

You are also unique in using Rolling Earthquake. I've used Pyroclasm before, which is similar to Rolling Earthquake except that it costs less mana to wipe out most decks and doesn't deal damage to you. Rolling Earthquake does have the advantage of being able to kill larger creatures than Pyrcoclasm can. However, there aren't too many 3-toughness creatures that I'm willing to spend four mana to remove, dealing myself three in the process. No offense to Dave Feinstein.

You say that you have fewer maindeck "awful" control cards than I have. Let's compare.

I run:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fire/Ice

You run:
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Burning Wish
1 Echoing Truth

Looks like we're about even. The Echoing Truths are a wash. You have Gorilla Shaman were I have Rack and Ruin. I've tested Shaman but just wasn't thrilled by him -- Rack and Ruin has just tested much, much better. Though, that is a separate discussion. I have Fire/Ice over the other Shaman, though that may be better as a second Rack and Ruin.

So, I am not sure that I understand where you're coming from when you said that you have fewer cards to get in the way; it looks like we have about the same number of "awful" board control cards.

By the way, have you tested Tormod's Crypt? The card just keeps surprising me with how good it is. It changes the dynamics of several key matchups for the price of zero mana.

[Scoops666]

I believe what Brian is trying to say is that, essentially, his 4 cards will come up dead less than your 4. Take for example the Fish matchup. Against Fish, the only use for Rack and Ruin and Tormods Crypt is to discard to TfK- they simply cannot be used in that matchup at all. The only cards you can use are Fire/Ice and E.Truth (Both good, don't get me wrong). However, FFY doesn't have any dead cards. Burning Wish can fetch Quake and the Gorilla Shamans can block there x/1's.

I believe its a matter of individual weakness vs overall strength. You have Rack and Ruins maindeck. That is absolutely gold against Stax, undeniable. FFY has to Wish for a Ruin, and only kill 1 thing, maybe multiples. However, he can also turn that card into a Deep Anal in the control mirror. I think it's a matter of sacrifising MD metagame hate against the safer but weaker plan of wishing for an answer that will never be dead.

Personally, I like the Burning Wish better. As has been previously stated, there are sometimes you just do not want a Crypt or RnR. I feel that a Wish in that spot is better because you are assured that that card can always turn into something useful.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Rich is right. Tormod's Crypt is AMAZING. Every good deck wins with a game-breaking yawgmoth's will, or atleast uses the graveyard as a resource. Crypt is a beating on Meandeck Gifts and not terrible against storm combo either. Being an artifact and 0cc makes it that much better. This card is an amazing inclusion.

@Rack and Ruin vs. Shaman: This has already been discussed. Shaman is amazing vs. the Mirror and Gifts, whereas Rack and ruin is better vs. stax. Both choices are good and dependent on the metagame you expect to see.

@Burning wish: Personally, I love this card. No one has really mentioned this, but burning wish grabs Yawgmoth's Will. Broken. In the control mirror, if you run MD burning wish, you have the option to go for an early will to gain an advantage and then still be able to do it again later on. Also, wish doesn't necessarily make your board "bad." Brian's board opts for diversity over redundancy. If you look at it closely, he boards in approximately the same amount of cards (compared to a more standard list of slaver) against certain decks, only his threats are more diverse. Bringing in Solemn/Spellbomb/Fire/Ice/REB against fish is just as efficent as boarding in 2 Old man/2 Fire/Ice.

-Bob

[forests failed you]

Rich, my main critique of your list is that you play extremely narrow cards in your maindeck.  Cards that are dead draws in some match ups.  Fire Ice, Rack and Ruin and Tormod's Crypt all seem sub oisptimal. 

I believe sideboard cards belong in the sideboard, not in the maindeck to try and randomly hose match ups.  My Narrow cards are really not that narrow.  Shaman and Burning Wish are good in every match up.  Granted they are better in some than others, but there is no match up where they are dead weight in my deck.  Also, Shaman has added synergy with my deck when you take under consideration that I play several other mana denial cards like COW STrip Mine, and Sundering Titan.  Being able to disable your opponent's Mana Base with strategic LD and Moxen destruction can win games all by itself.  The key is that every deck plays Moxen, and cheap artifacts... Therefore Shaman is useful in every match up.  Against Stax I board into one Rack and Ruin and keep two Shamans...  I actually think that Shaman is a much more powerful card against Stax than Rack and Ruin could every pray to be.  Rack and Ruin doesn't impress me anymore, its a cute trick... But Slaver is so stacked against Workshops that it hardly seems necessary to play multiple copies in one's deck.  I was very close to cutting it to make room for a SB Stifle.

As for Rolling Earthquake.  It can Kill Pentavus and Trike out of the board... It kills old man of the sea that some of the fish decks are running.  It can randomly wipe an opponent's board if they board into Negators, and I have used it to deal lethal damage to my opponents. 

Rich, I think that this is where you and I differ on our evaluation of cards.  It seems you tend to rate cards higher based on the effect that is provided for a specific mana cost.  Or, what seems important to you is that you get the most out of as little mana as possible.  For me, I'm much more concerned with the versitility of a card and am much more willing to sacrifice the cheapness of mana cost for added effects.  It isn't that one or the other is right or wrong, its just something I noticed.

Either way both lists are clearly very good and have been tested and proven;  but they are different and tailored to suit the playstyles and specific needs of different players.

[The Atog Lord]

Brian,

Excellent post. I think you hit the nail on the head.

I do tend to favor cards that give me the most bang for my buck, even if that means that sometimes I'll have dead cards in my hand. Your build seems to have fewer cards which are entirely dead in certain matchups, and fewer cards that are crushing in certain matchups too. Well said.

In either case, as you said, both builds have strengths, and both have put up results.

I'd just like to reiterate that if you haven't tested it yet, Tormod's Crypt is worth testing. If you've already tried it, I'll stop telling you how awesome it is. But in my testing and tournament experience, the card is great.

[cryolyte]

When FFY first posted this decklist, I tried and tried to play it unsuccessfully. I concluded that it was either junk, or required much more madskillz than I had. I have played more traditional Control Slaver builds, to some success, for the past 8 months to a year. Anyway, at the last RIW Sapphire event, I played FFY in the first round while I was playing my traditional Control Slaver build and he playing this monstrosity. Basically I got my ass handed to me. With impunity, even.

My question is, how does one's playstyle need to differ from playing traditional CS in order to pilot this deck successfully?


EDIT: I can attest to him dealing lethal damage with a Rolling Earthquake.....

[marcb]

FFY,

  Thanks for the reply. You really gave me a lot of insight into BS. I guess when I said the sideboard was affected by burning wish, I only meant that w/o burning wish, deep analysis could be FoF, Echoing ruin could be another rack and ruin, and the tendrils and rolling earthquake spots could be some other meta slots. Is this an improvement of the SB, and if so is it worth changing the MD to accommodate such a sideboard. I tend to think FoF is better than deep analysis, and rack and ruin is better than echoing truth. Maybe rolling earthquake and tendrils would be in the SB even if burning wish was not MD, but i still think w/o burning wish, the SB could be further optimized. I'm just not sure it's worth changing the MD to accommodate. ANy thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I am learning so much. Thanks again to everyone.

Marc

[MoxMonkey]

Gorilla Shamans are my favorite utiliy and they have been in my main or board since 2003 (With Keeper/4CC/CS).  Chailce of the Void has nothing on my Gorilla Shamans.  On the Stax matchup, it loses to the evil duo of Gorilla Shaman + Goblin Welder and with Crucible in the main Stax hasn't been a major problem.  They have never let me down and have always proven there worth to me.

I cannot run a Control deck without Fact or Fiction.  I have both Fact and gifts in my main and love them both.  I don't think this is the best build or smartest thing to do with the deck but I will not cut FoF and Gifts has been amazing for me.  The same reason LOA hasn't left my list but being in NE changes your views on decks.  I have control mirrors everywhere I go so FoF and LOA go with me. 

Burning Wish has been great as utility and its as FFY said your either looking for the best bang for your buck or some greater utility for more mana.  I have never wanted Extra space with my BS board.   

[dicemanx]

I'd like to hear some opinions about the number of Welders in the decks. While the number wavered between 3-4 over the last couple of years, and we've had arguments in favor of 3 and in favor of 4 in previous threads, perhaps its time now to ask if 3 is indeed a correct number after generating significantly more empirical evidence. I noticed that Shay now runs 3 himself, but without comment. Is this a permanent change? It would seem to appear that Welder's defensive capabilities have grown in significance with Shop/Welder decks becoming more prominent and powerful, and with Gifts decks running Tinker-DSC or Vault as a win condition. Does a RnR, for example, make much more of an impact than a 4th Welder?

I'm also curious about the Gifts Ungiven count - the numbers fall within 0-1 in the given builds, but has anyone explored more than 1 Gifts MD? This would appear to head down the SSB path, which I'm not sure is a weak idea in itself (nor do I consider the current Gifts decks as evolved forms of SSB, just "different"). Gifts, seems like it has such incredible synergy with both the Welder portion of the deck and the control/card drawing part of the deck that I'm surprised to not see attempts at CS-Gifts hybrids a la SSB.

[vartemis]

I tried out 2 gifts in CS (no wish), and it had its pros and cons.  I got rid of my DT and VT for them.  Getting 1 gifts was great, as I could get all my important artifacts, and increasing to 2 allowed me to usually do this quicker, but I was often wishing the second was a DT or even a VT when I drew it as I couldnt think of anything else to gifts for, other than tolarian, strip and something else to abuse with crucible.  I think 1 gifts with a mystical is more than enough.

j

[MoxMonkey]

I have been running 3 Welders for the past year and a half.  I would only want 4 Welders if I were to go out to SCG Chicago since it is so Shop infested.  I have not been dissapointed with the 1 Welder missing.

More than 1 Gifts makes the deck have less flexibility and unable to change roles on a dime.  One of the reason I like Slaver so much is the ability to be the Control deck and the next turn become the Aggresive deck trying to take the game over with a TFK and an active Welder,  a Gifts, Tinker, hardcast Triskelion, or Yawgmoth's Will.  Adding more Gifts makes Tormod's Crypt better against you.  That alone makes it questionable with everyone packing so many Crypts because of Gifts. 

I have done a SSB/CS hybrid with 3 Welders lots of Tutors 2 Gifts, Belcher/Sev, Triskelion, 1/2 Mindslaver, DSC then then the other stuff.  The bots and Welders got in the way A lot in testing and I would rather go more in 1 Direction than the other.  BS does what I wanted that test deck to do, be able to use the Bot plan as well as CS(something SSB never did for me),   but also have a way to kill the oppenent Fast during Time in tournament play(Burning Wish, Tendrils). 

[Scoops666]

I think that Having more than 1 Gifts pushes the game plan too far in the direction of Gifts. I tried this myself and came to the conclusion that more than  1 Gifts dillutes the deck- it wants to do too much. 1 Gifts is amazing because you can use its brokenness when drawn, but are never rellying on it or trying to find it throughout the game.

[The Atog Lord]

Diceman,

The 3 Weldes is by no means permanent. My build for SCG was not optimal against Stax with 3 Welders and only 3 basic lands. This gambit worked and it didn't -- I only faced one Workshop deck the entire time, but that one did beat me.

Now, onto the matter of Gifts in Control Slaver. Before SCG, I spent a few weeks testing a Control Slaver build with 2 Gifts Ungiven and 1 Recoup. Recoup, by the way, indicates a fundamental change in the deck, taking Gifts from a good draw spell and making it into a kill mechanism. Anyways, the Gifts/Slaver deck tested alright, but it ran into one huge problem: it was too mana-hungry. The combo involving Gifts Ungiven isn't really a one-card combo. It requires one card, alongside a large amount of mana, which must include both black and red. The Gifts configuration worked amazingly well when I drew some Moxen. However, when I had no acceleration, I was very unhappy with Gifts. So, Diceman, while the idea itself is quite a good one, in practice it made the deck even more mox-hungry.

[forests failed you]

I hate Goblin Welder.   He is a dead draw early, and in most match ups if you draw more than one you are probably losing.  Basically, you only need to draw one in a game and get him active to win.  Also, I would point out that there is no big hurry to get a Welder into play and activate him in most match ups.  I'd much rather have almost any other card in my deck in my hand than a Welder early on... Especially Shaman.

I have tested Tormod's Crypt in the maindeck.  Sometimes I love it and sometimes I hate it.  There are some match ups where it steals y ou games and other where it sits in your hand and mocks you.  I have found that I tend to have the most trouble against disruptive aggro match ups... and Crypt certainly doesn't help me here; therefore I can't justify running it main deck.  I've already found that I have a very strong match up against Gifts and Combo... So I figure I don't need it MD.  Another thing that makes Crypt better in your deck is that you play Colossos.  You can Tinker out Kevin and against opposing Welders Crypt yourself so they can't get rid of him.  I hate Colossos, would most likely not play with him maindeck in almost any metagame, and therefore can't justify Crypt.  If I had him I would be much more likely to play a MD Crypt because it would have added synergy with my deck.  I tend to play Slaver as a deck that tries to create an advantage in on board Mana, using my extra Mana to bottleneck an opponent to the point where I can outcounter and Draw cards on their EOT with counterspell back up;  Thus untapping with an advantage every turn. 

I think moving to three Welders in your list for Richmond was a smart play, especially because you are playing Colossos... Which can't be Welded in.

I don't think that Gifts is really a card Slaver should build around, so to speak.  If you build the deck a specific way it can have fantastic Synergy and make a great tutor target.  However, if you want to build around Gifts and play it in multiples, why not just play Gifts?  My other concern with playing multiple Gifts is that after you cast the first one, usually your targets become much weaker and more Sparse by the time you get to the second one.  The inclusion of Recoup would help;  As you could Gifts up Mana and then use a second Gifts to find Recoup and Will;  However, at that point why even play Welders, TFKs, and Robots at all... ?  As you are pretty much just playing a Gifts based combo deck.

[pyr0ma5ta]

I can agree with the 3 welders plan.  I personally played CS as my pet deck for almost a year, and vehemently hated running less than 4 welders, as one can witness if one goes and searches for my past posts.  My reasoning was that the "Engine" in Slaver is TFK-Artifact-Welder.  If you cut any piece of the puzzle, by definition you're also cutting some of the power of the rest of the engine, which is true to an extent.  What FFY is saying, and now I totally agree with, is 1 or 2 Welder activations is usually enough.  You don't need to activate Welder 12 times to win, and if you could run 8 Welders you wouldn't.  Activating a Welder in Slaver is sufficiently powerful that 3 Welders should be more than enough.

Tormod's Crypt: I still can't figure out if I like it or hate it in the main.  I've been playing 1 in the Gifts maindeck recently over pithing Needle, and it's been randomly awesome, but too often I end up putting it back for Brainstorm and shuffling away or pitching to TFK etc.  Not impressed with it most of the time.

Gorilla: Savage.  Unstoppable.  Doesn't need more cowbell.

Recoup: I don't think this card has a place in Slaver.  It's just...dead on its own.  Goodness knows Slaver has enough huge uncastables that do nothing on their own unless pitched and welded in.

My real point in posting here is another question directed at Brian: how do you feel about your wishboard?  Do you ever wish for Duress?  Does Mind Twist deserve a slot, perhaps over DA?  How do you sideboard for game 2; do you board out the Wish?

[forests failed you]

I wish for Duress occasionally.

I had Mindtwist in my board in Rochester when I took top eight.  Josh Franklin suggested running Deep Anal over Twist.  I said my board was light on board cards against Combo so I played Twist.  It wrecked a combo player in the Swiss.  However, in Game two of the semis against Ugo had I had deep instead of Twist to wish for I would have won the game.  He represented leak early, and I had to play around it and I never had an opportunity to cast my Twist.  However, I would have been more than happy with running my Deep into his Leak, and then Flashing it back.  I haven't had any complaints with Deep... It does what it needs to do.  Gets the job done.

I've been advocating three Welders for well over a decade now... Three Welders and two Shamans is more than sufficient for crushing Stax every game.  I haven't lost to a Stax deck in a tournament since the SCG Chicago in October when I game two and three mulliganed to Five and four.  My opponent plays a turn one shop and I essentially ask if he just wants to save time and sign the match slip 2-0 in my favor and save his or herself the humilation of actually getting wrecked.

[Liam-K]

I'm having a hard time articulating this concept, but I'll try to post it anyway.

I like burning wish and I like the storm kill.  I disagree with Rich that it is win-more because a focused effort to resolve lethal Tendrils allows you to convert your resources MUCH more efficiently.  The reason for this is a "regular" Yawgwill wants to create as many tangible advantages as possible: cards drawn, permanents destroyed etc.  Basically, you need effects that last past the end of the turn, and these are more expensive than 1-shot effects since they usually add up to more over time.  However, when you are moving directly towards lethal storm, you are much more free to utilize temporary effects: converting your tempo into resources which will dissappear at the end of the turn/phase.  Primarily storm count and mana in the mana pool, and particularly in ways that would be destructive in the long term.

I'll try to illustrate with an example.  You have an active welder, a duplicant as your only artifact, and are holding black lotus on the turn you want to cast yawgwill.  If you were not going to win with tendrils, you might be less likely to weld your duplicant out for an extra shot of black lotus, as (assuming you intended to use the lotus again under yawgwill) you would then be without a creature and also without a way to weld in robots.  Going for the tendrils kill makes you less worried about the long term implications of losing a permanent for mana.  Similarly, resolving a Rebuild to break even on mana is certainly not worth trading for under normal circumstances, but the 3-4 storm it offers is very efficient when storm is relevant.

These are really weak examples but without trying to lay out a full game state and analysing the whole thing I can't think of a better way to put it.  I'm just trying to say that you get to take advantage of "short term pain for long term gain" style plays when using Tendrils, and that those plays always allow you to do more NOW than you could if you cared about what might happen a turn from now... which you don't, since you're going to actually end the game.  It takes less resources to end the game with Tendrils than it does to end the game with a long yawgwill turn that doesn't use Tendrils.

[Frank@TO]

Id like to hear more on

Trike vs Duplicant
7/10 vs DSC

I play in a metagame with alot of rogue and an imerging trend towards combo, but i dotn wanna flat out lose to the few workshop players.

[RezDawg]

I've tried BS and I like it to an extent.  I guess my inexperience with the deck shows, cuzz when it comes time to SB I look through the deck and it seems so tight its hard to decide what can come out.  to me when i played against another control deck i wanted the duresses and REB as well as crypt.  6 cards, what to take out...  to me against control the mytiscal and vampiric comes out, card disadvantage and tempo.  now do i want to take out drains for duress or some draw like brainstorm?  Seems I want to keep TfK to pitch robots and such.  I like the shamans and never really want to see them leave.  gifts? probably not I usually grab 4 artifacts with it and dont care which they give me.  so far when i want duress in ive taken out drains for them and couple brainstorms another time.  i dont like either plan, so all i know is that i want mytiscal and vampiric gone and i fumble around for the others.  *shrug*  I think maybe i need to watch someone pilot this and take notes...

[marcb]

Ok, So here’s my attempt to improve BS. The changes are as follows
MD
-1 Burning Wish
-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Mox Monkey
+1 Time Vault
+1 Flame Fusillade
+1 Cunning Wish
SB:
-1 Tendrils
-1 Rolling Earthquake
-1 Echoing Ruin
-1 Deep Analysis
+1 Fact or Fiction
+1 Rack and Ruin
+1 Mystical Tutor
+1 Ensnaring Bridge (or whatever you like)

First I will look at the cons to this build.
1) Most people will argue that the Flamevault combo means that there are two basically useless cards in the deck unless you have them together.
2) Loss of mox monkey means the deck is not as good at handling artifacts, and I have lost a blocker against fish or aggro.
3) Loss of mystical tutor from the MD means no early Ancestral, and setting up a Gifts with four tutors is no longer possible.
4)  Burning Wish was a utility card and a game ender, and now it’s been replaced by a card (Cunning Wish), which costs more and can’t end the game.
5)  Rolling Earthquake FTW is no longer an option. (This will make some people sad!)
6) Loss of Burning Wish means I can’t cast Yawgmoth’s Will early with the option to replay it later.
Compensation for Con’s (Pro’s)
1)  Flame Fusillade is not entirely useless without Time Vault.  It can function like a Rolling Earthquake if need be, and you don’t even have to have more life than your opponent.  It can be good for killing creatures that otherwise only Duplicant could target.  The combo FlameVault is much less mana intensive than Tendrils.  If you weld in the time vault it costs four mana with only one colored mana, so there’s often drain mana up.  It’s amazing how easy it is to play first turn welder, second turn thirst discarding time vault, third tutor for flame, and win. I did it yesterday on MWS and I have only been trying this deck out for a day. 
2) Although we lose mox monkey, we can still Cunning wish for a rack and ruin to kill artifacts.  Since BS has 2 Monkeys and possibly echoing ruin game 1, while this build has 1 monkey and possibly rack and ruin game one, it is not as good at hating artifacts game one, but it probably has enough. (Atog Lord only uses 1 rack and ruin).  The loss of the blocker against aggro or fish could be compensated by game 1 access to fire/ice from the SB.
3) Loss of mystical is the biggest con in my opinion, but again it is possible to cunning wish for it.  Also, it can go back post-board.  One can still Gifts for the combo, for example choose time vault, demonic, vampiric, cunning wish (with welder in play).  No matter what the time vault can come into play, and at worst you have to Cunning Wish for mystical to draw Flame Fussilade.  Most of the time this is not an issue because the gifts will set up a minslaver lock, or get you early crucible strip anyway, but at least it’s nice to know that removing MD mystical doesn’t prevent the possibility to gifts FTW.
4) Cunning Wish does cost more, but it can be cast EOT, so it’s not such a big deal. It is a better utility card then BW.  It allows for access to another echoing truth, mystical tutor, rack and ruin, Fact or fiction, REB, Fire/Ice, and Stifle (if it’s in your board) on game 1.  BW only gave tendrils, Rolling Earthquake, Deep Analysis, Duress, and Echoing Ruin.  I like the fact that this card does not find my combo Game 1.  I think the utility value of Cunning Wish makes it a must counter, so by separating the combo from the utility card, I feel like the threat density of cards that need to be countered has gone up.  I often don’t cast Burning wish right away because I’m not sure if I want to go for a utility card, or wait a turn and try to win.  This way I can cast Cunning Wish whenever, and go for the utility. If it gets countered that’s one less counter to stop the combo.
5)  The sideboard is really the reason I like this new version so much.  Fact or Fiction in the sideboard is a house.  If you haven’t played with this card in a while, you should try it again. It’s better than you remember.  Personally, I like the extra rack and ruin in the SB more than echoing ruin, so that’s an improvement as well.  I like the free space created by taking out Rolling Earthquake from the SB. I added Ensnaring Bridge (I actually have 2 in the SB), and so far they really help against aggro and fish, which has been hard for me playing BS as well as this version.  Lastly, I love having access to half the SB game 1. 
6)  Finally, after sideboard cunning wish will come out and whatever utility you want will obviously go back in the deck (ie Mystical Tutor), so at least this MD drawback only occurs game 1.  I also, think this deck is stronger game 2 and 3 with the addition of FoF against the control mirror, the extra rack and ruin against stax, and the ensnaring bridges against aggro, fish, or even oath. 

I have tried to give this some thought, and I apologize if I just don’t understand Burning Slaver and have completely ruined a work of art, but any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. –I am also not sure if the remaining mox monkey should be a rack and ruin or if the sundering titan should be a darksteel colossus.  This is a point that could be discussed for both this version and the traditional version of BS.

[Hi-Val]

I've been testing around with Burning Slaver in our gauntlets for a while and trying to get a good feel for the deck. I admit that I really like it; it has lots of powerful little synergies in it. One thing that really stymied me though is that there really isn't a good Tinker target against Stax in the deck. My plan in facing Stax with a blue deck is just get Tinker and blow them away with that. Crucible is nice but I've lost many a game where I've had it on the first or second turn, even with Strip, even with Fetches, playing against Stax. Getting Titan is suicidal, getting Duplicant is not that effective. Slaver itself rarely gets the mana to activate in the early game. I liked that in other lists, one could grab Trike, Bus or DSC and just beat down with that.

Tinker is an incredible threat against Stax because it cheats everything they try to beat you with and it forces them to change their playstyle to deal with a giant man instead of locking an opponent out. A weak Tinker against Stax is really painful, and that was my one big gripe with Burning Slaver.