[Single Card Discussion] New Fish Toy-Azorius Guildmage

[NWI Team_Zilla]

Lets look at the upsides:
1)Its a wizard so it has synergies with Voidmage Prodigy
2)Can be pitched to FoW
3)It taps fatties
4)It can stop about half of the broken stuff in vintage from happening. *As long as you have 2U up*
5) It swings.

Granted, niether ability is the most economically costed, but wizards would break more than just Vintage if they made it cheaper.  It has potential, but you can't make fun of it cause it doesn't say U: stifle everything.

@Kombat, I stifle triggered abilities (cip's, storm, upkeep effects, ect.) all the time in vintage, maybe you just don't know how to play with stifle. 

[sundering jerk]

Pesimistic:
This card is takes to much color, and way to much to utilize his ability. It's just not broken enough for T1.

Optimistic:
But I think this is a great card for fish because it's a 2/2. Dark blasts(which you can't deal with) are running absolutly rampent right now and this could be a great replacement for not only stormscape but waterfrount as well.

[forests failed you]

I think this guy would be really good in Vial UW Fish.  Not to mention that he is a Wizard and can also be sacrificed to Kai.

[Liek]

There's no chance that this will replace Stormscape Apprentice. That card was added because it cost U, for the deck's mana curve, because it was the best blue one drop available. This guy costs 2, so it can't possibly replace the Apprentice.

However, it may have a spot in the deck. The question is whether or not it can replace any of the other 2 drops. Since Fish wants to be as consistant as possible (mana cost on creatures,) and play the most useful creautres available, looking at the other creatures is requied. So, if it's better than any of the following, it may have a spot.

Meddling Mage - clearly the best one.
Ninja of the Deep Hours - not really a 2 drop, but a key part of the deck anyways.
Kataki, War's Wage - the worst of the bunch. Being non-blue has always held him back, and sometimes he doesn't do anything (when you had Chalice zero anyways,) and sometimes he ties my mana down.
Voidmage Prodigy - a huge part of my Fish deck, but nobody else's. Decks not running him can fit the Guildmage here.

So, the only card I'd consider cutting from my build for this guy is Kataki, who would then make a sideboard appearance over Energy Flux. This would make the maindeck cast its Forces of Will a little better since three white cards would become blue. However, only playtesting and/or tournament results can indicate if this Guildmage is better than Kataki in real games.

[Yare]

I just don't like this guy that much.

Three mana is a TON of mana for fish.  Frankly, I'm amazed that people are able to play Kai becuase he is such a mana whore (although, admittedly, 2+<colored mana> is probably easier to get than UU in fish, depending on the mana base).  Sure, swinging for two is cool and all, but that's about all he has going for him.  I just see people looking at their hands and going "well, I can either leave mana open for him or I can cast a spell."  One possible plus might be that if you are running Kai as well, then you can leave 3 mana open and have two potential plays to make rather than one.  But, overall I just don't see it.

[Pitlord]

Another thing to consider when deciding on whether or not to play this little guy is your metagame. Fish is already a very meta dependent deck, and this guildmage adds to that even more.

It seems to be the general opinion that kataki would be the first thing to come out for the guildmage, which is probably correct, but that depends on the meta. This little guy does next to nothing against stax, but kataki tends to house stax and other workshop decks. Guildmage is another tool against oath, a match where seeing kataki can erally suck.

Overall, I think in the proper meta, the guildmage could be used as apprentices numbers 7 or 8 against oath, if it is heavy in your meta. If you don't see a lot of oath though, his abilities are too expensive for general use.

[Meddling Mike]

This guy could be very good in the proper places, people are talking quite a bit about how mana intensive it is, and this is true, but it should be taken into account that in the mid-late game fish often has an abundance of mana and often times just keeping 3 mana up could severely disrupt an opponent's game plan.

How this guy stacks up to stormscape apprentice is really dependent upon the specific build of the deck. If you've got ninjas and such, then keeping the cc low is probably optimal.

[pyr0ma5ta]

3 mana is quite a lot, yes, but riddle me this: What exactly do you do with your mana on turn 3 with fish?  You've already got all your dudes down, and you're holding STP, Brainstorm, Force with 3 mana open.  This situation comes up OFTEN, and threatening Stifle on Tendrils or tap down DSC can be very threatening.  The new builds of fish eschew Ninja/Factory/Standstill for Lions, Isamaru, and True Believer, and I really believe that this guy is just better than True Believer against the field. 

[Joblin Velder]

3 mana is quite a lot, yes, but riddle me this: What exactly do you do with your mana on turn 3 with fish?  You've already got all your dudes down, and you're holding STP, Brainstorm, Force with 3 mana open.  This situation comes up OFTEN, and threatening Stifle on Tendrils or tap down DSC can be very threatening.  The new builds of fish eschew Ninja/Factory/Standstill for Lions, Isamaru, and True Believer, and I really believe that this guy is just better than True Believer against the field. 

As mentioned previously, this doesn't hit triggered abilities.

[Liek]

3 mana is quite a lot, yes, but riddle me this: What exactly do you do with your mana on turn 3 with fish?

I activate Mishra's Factory and bash them, or I activate Wasteland, or I cast Standstill, or I sit with UU open and Vial on 2, or I play Crucible of Worlds, or I play some other card I boarded in. Fish has a lot of things to do with its mana.

[Pitlord]

On turn 3, I have a lot to do with my mana. Fish needs all the mana it can get in the early game to put pressure on. Late game, usualy turn 5 to 6, is when this guy really shines.

Fish tends to crap out late game, where everything gets better topdecks than it. Multiple null rods suck, so do vials and other chaff like fairies, or standstill, which can't help you dig out of a hole. Fish can't dig itself out of a hole very well, it can only try to avoid the hole. Guildmage lets you gelp dig out of the hole late game, which is exactly what fish needs to be great again. This guildmage migh not be the perfect example of this, but it is definitly a step in the right direction.

[Harlequin]

On turn 3, I have a lot to do with my mana. Fish needs all the mana it can get in the early game to put pressure on. Late game, usualy turn 5 to 6, is when this guy really shines.

Fish tends to crap out late game, where everything gets better topdecks than it. Multiple null rods suck, so do vials and other chaff like fairies, or standstill, which can't help you dig out of a hole. Fish can't dig itself out of a hole very well, it can only try to avoid the hole. Guildmage lets you gelp dig out of the hole late game, which is exactly what fish needs to be great again. This guildmage migh not be the perfect example of this, but it is definitly a step in the right direction.

Totally Agree that fish looses in the late game.  But its not a lategame deck.  Fish wins the game on turn 2 or 3 by neutralizing your opponents threats with early disruption and a few beaters.  Cutting early game cards for late games cards is a terrible idea because your takeing focus away from the turns you need to focus on.  A stifle late game is no good.  So haveing stifle on a stick avaible on turn 7+ is 100% worthless... you have already lost.  You need stifle turn one, and without lotus land mox ... your not going to have it.

Its kinda like saying... man combo really looses in the late game, so I'm going to cut combo cards for Kokusho, or something else equally worthless.

[Meddling Mike]

3 mana is quite a lot, yes, but riddle me this: What exactly do you do with your mana on turn 3 with fish?  You've already got all your dudes down, and you're holding STP, Brainstorm, Force with 3 mana open.  This situation comes up OFTEN, and threatening Stifle on Tendrils or tap down DSC can be very threatening.  The new builds of fish eschew Ninja/Factory/Standstill for Lions, Isamaru, and True Believer, and I really believe that this guy is just better than True Believer against the field. 

Fish should never be out of gas by turn 3, the guildmage's abilities are really more of an emergency consideration(tapping a tinkered/oathed up fatty or stopping a fetchland if my opponent is hurting for mana) and a late game consideration when the excess mana is available. A fish deck should rarely, if ever, be keeping open 3 mana on turn 3 in the hopes of stopping a fetch or tapping a guy.

[Pitlord]

Totally Agree that fish looses in the late game.  But its not a lategame deck.  Fish wins the game on turn 2 or 3 by neutralizing your opponents threats with early disruption and a few beaters.  Cutting early game cards for late games cards is a terrible idea because your takeing focus away from the turns you need to focus on.  A stifle late game is no good.  So haveing stifle on a stick avaible on turn 7+ is 100% worthless... you have already lost.  You need stifle turn one, and without lotus land mox ... your not going to have it.

I agree that fish is usually winning the late game as soon as it hits late game, but this guildmage can help solve that problem. He comes down turn 2 and turns sideways for 2 points. He puts pressure on with other dorks early game, the only difference is that he stays good. True believer, kataki, meddling mage, apprentice, they all stay good as the game progresses. That is the key to fish. You want to have cards that are great early, and playable late, which this guildmage definitly is.

Quote Fixed. -Klep

[Harlequin]

That is the key to fish. You want to have cards that are great early, and playable late, which this guildmage definitly is.

How is he great early?  you need 2 colored sources to get him into play, and a million mana to use his abilities.  If you think your going to win by playing him turn two, a land turn 3 and sitting on 3 open mana until you have 5 mana then your soarly mistaken.  This guy is probably worse than Grizzly bears in the early game.  The bears at least only cost 1 color and one off color for a 2/2 with no abilitiles in the early game.

If your fighting a loosing battle on turn 8, I really don't see this guy winning you the game on 9.  Even worse is if you have him in your opening hand. [sarcasm] If your looking for a late game card that has "amazing" abilites just play Crowd Favorites [/sarcasm].

[Pitlord]

I didn't claim that his abilites were good early game. I simply stated that he does what fish should do early game, beat down. I agree that on turn 3 you should be spending mana on other things, as stated in one of my posts above. But by turn 5 or 6, when you are basically in topdeck mode, and you can afford his abilities AND animating factory, then he becomes pretty decent. He can slow down oath and tinker-->DSC, as well as nailing wastelands in the very late game. I believe that fish needs to be able to dig out of holes instead of simply avoiding them, and the guildmage seems to be decent at doing exactly that.

PS, no offense but you might want to read ALL of my posts before attacking my ideas.

[warble]

How is he great early?

For fish, it's not that he's great, it's that he is worth the risk.  Whenever you tap out it's a risk with fish, it just needs to be worth that risk.  2 mana for a 2/2 is worth the risk, ask people who play ninja.  Sure, it's better to have ninja'd in a guy, but if you need the mana open for a buttload of disruption after turn 2 (or even better have vial) you risk the turn 2 2/2 drop to put a viable clock down so fish isn't just sucking it up giving an eternity to the opposing deck.  Put down a 7-turn clock with fish and watch it win.  Don't, and watch it lose.  Bird sh|t that is the mantra, all this guy is doing is bringing that with a wee bit of disruption to U/W fish.

Please also remember, I consider that a risk, not a standard play.  Standard for fish would be holding this little bad boy until turn 4-5 after disruption is done and then plopping him down to prevent the massive topdeck war that fish typically gets into.  At least you have a 2/2 beater.

Edit: *woot* go pitlord we posted the same thing, kinda, well not really now that I read your post.

[Harlequin]

I have been following the thread, and you basically your point has been the same each time.  You think he's good in the late game, when you have a larger mana pool.

My focus was on this statement which I totally agree with:

... the key to fish. You want to have cards that are great early, and playable late, which this guildmage definitly is.

So The requirement for a fish creature is:
"Great in early game"
"Playable Late game"

I was mearly pointing out that the Guild mage is:
Worse than a vanilla 2/2 beater early game
A huge hold on your mana, for a rather suboptimal ability... late game.

Fish is an early game deck, so there is no reason to focus energy on the late game.  Cards That I see as "late" game cards for fish are Jite and Old man of the Sea.  Both become threats on turn 4-5... anything later than that is "too late"

[Vegeta2711]

I have been following the thread, and you basically your point has been the same each time.  You think he's good in the late game, when you have a larger mana pool.

My focus was on this statement which I totally agree with:

... the key to fish. You want to have cards that are great early, and playable late, which this guildmage definitly is.

So The requirement for a fish creature is:
"Great in early game"
"Playable Late game"

I was mearly pointing out that the Guild mage is:
Worse than a vanilla 2/2 beater early game
A huge hold on your mana, for a rather suboptimal ability... late game.

He has abilities, how is he possibly worse than a 'vanilla 2/2 beater', unless you can't build mana bases for shit?

As for how usable he is...  I really like that he basically rolls up 3-4 of the things I look for in a Fish creature into one package, it just still may not be good enough.

[Pitlord]

He comes down early, as a 2/2 that can be cast with any combo of relavent colored mana. He is useful on turns 4 or 5, the same time as jitte or old man. However, he is useful in more than the mirror, as jitte and old man basically are. He is good against oath, seeing as they will probably be able to oath turn 4-5 consistently, if not sooner. Convienient that guildmage becomes usable then, isn't it?

The cost of his ability is steep, but a key thing is that the ability doesn't tap him agianst oath. If they don't have orchard for whatever reason, then 3 mana a turn to tap down a fatty seems like a decent deal, especially when he turns sideways on my turn. Having a creature that says, 4WW every turn: beat oath, isn't that bad. We use stormscape apprentice, and he taps himself to use the ability, negating any possibility of aggression against oath or racing DSC.

I think you are putting too much emphasis on the cost fo the ability. It is expensive, but often highly useful. He may not be the greatest card ever, and he may not single-handedly bring fish to great heights, but he is definitly playable.

[Yare]

Having a creature that says, 4WW every turn: beat oath, isn't that bad.

Good luck getting to 4WW with fish.  If you have that much mana available consistently, something is wrong with your manabase.  Beyond that, you are assuming that they do not have Orchard, an assumption which does not hold for numerous Oath board situations.

I think you are putting too much emphasis on the cost fo the ability. It is expensive, but often highly useful. He may not be the greatest card ever, and he may not single-handedly bring fish to great heights, but he is definitly playable.

The cost has everything to do with it.  The fact that it is expensive is what makes it "not good." To me, having three mana available just screams inefficiency; surely there is something better you can do with that mana.  Fish is all about "hanging on" just long enough to win so that you can hold off the broken maelstrom that your opponent is trying to unleash.

All that being said, I did a little gatherer searching for vanilla (or nearly vanilla) blue and/or white 2/2 creatures and I actually could not find anything that really fit the bill.  All I came up with were the usual 2CC suspects: Kataki, Voidmage Prodigy, Meddling Mage (of which only one is a "true" 2/2).  So, I suppose this card may fill the vanilla 2/2 niche in the sense that it is slightly more playable due to the guild mana (or whatever the appropriate term is) cost.  Although, I am reluctant to say that because I historically have had issues wiith colored mana and fish because I tend to rely on Mishra's Factory and Wasteland, consequently diluting the mana base.

[roberts91rom]

Stormscape apprentice is 1 mana cheaper, has synergy with ninja and has a cheaper ability. Your arguement is that it does damage? You're paying 2 colorless mana for a shock added on to stormscape apprentice. Then again I feel as if you "Fish experts" that run crap like Isamaru and Savannah Lions are WAY off the mark of what Fish does. Run WW if you want vanilla beaters, and run ability-related creatures in Fish. Basically it's Stifle>Guildmage, Stormscape>guildmage, StP>guildmage and Orim's Chant>guildmage. Notice a pattern? Once you take out the Vanilla Isamaru and SAVANAH LIONS *cough* T2 *cough*, you get the utility Fish so sorely needs.

To Oath, if by turns 4-5 you don't have two ways of stopping creatures your deck is very poorly configured. StP, Stormscape, Maze of Ith and Tinker DSC vs. Tinker/Oathed DSC.



HELLO!



ANSWERS!

Fish should run brainstorm purely for the cheap utility and the high fetch number that it runs, because it digs for THE ANSWERS THAT YOU NEED. Having crap like Null Rod#2 in hand, and StP 3 cards deep is a pain in the ass, especially when you can just Fetch the crap away. You might not want to see 2 a game, so 3 might be the right number. This is another thread however.

@ pyr0: I don't know wtf you're playing, but if you're out of gas by turn 3, don't call it Fish.

Then again, I could be wrong. Maybe the "New Fish Tech" costs at least 5 mana and Grizzly Bears is more deadly than any other creature ever printed.

PS: Sorry if this is rude, but it HAS to be said to get the message across. After seeing that this thread didn't die in 2 days I almost fainted at how Fish is being butchered with " 5 mana Guildmages" and "Vanilla Creatures".

[Implacable]

I agree and disagree with you, Robert.  I do think that vanilla 2/x's for 1 are the worst possible cards to put in Fish.  Those who think that Fish is a pure aggro deck should not play it.  At the very least, however, Guildmage is a superior card to Lions and Ismaru, if not some of the other stock cards that Fish plays.  While the ability that Guildmage has is certainly not equal to that of, say, Meddling Mage, the fact that it is a Wizard does, in my opinion, boost it into the playability range.  If Darksteel is seeing heavy play in my metagame, I would consider running it.

[roberts91rom]

The problem is that Fish is a deck that only has room for metagame slots.

ctrl+C/Basically it's Stifle>Guildmage, Stormscape>guildmage, StP>guildmage and Orim's Chant>guildmage. If by turns 4-5 you don't have two ways of stopping creatures your deck is very poorly configured. StP, Stormscape, Maze of Ith and Tinker DSC vs. Tinker/Oathed DSC/ctrl+V.

[Implacable]

It all depends on what you consider a Fish deck.  I might be misguided, but I see a lot of potential in a deck that runs 16 Wizards and 4 Ninjas.  The Wizards have amazing synergy with Voidmage, and the Ninjas get you cards.  On the other hand, if you want to run more metagame-optimized fish, then you will never, ever run Guildmage. 

[Pitlord]

I agree that vanilla 2 power beaters aren't really a good call for fish. But this guy is more than a 2/x beater, he actually has an ability, one that, while expensive, is useful in the right meta. I agree that stormscape is good, and has great synergy with the deck, and I wouldn't drop him. But if you see lots of DSC or maybe even oath, he could be useful as stormscapes 5-8.

Aggro fish does not work, I do not understand how people can try to race DSC with lions and hounds. You need effecient beaters, yes, but you also need utility. The guildmage is a beater, and he has utility built in, like Pikula and kataki and Kai Budde. He may not be great, but he could be playable, testing would be the only way to tell for sure, but I stand by my opinion that he is at the very least worth testing.

@Implacable... I have stated multiple times that the guildmage may be run in the proper meta game, not as an auto-include. You have to metagame fish, or you don't win, it simply isn't that broken. If ever other match you expect to see tinker-->DSC, then playing the guildmage seems a lot better than Kataki, who I feel is the other commonly used meta slot that guildmage could raplace.

[Implacable]

I agree that vanilla 2 power beaters aren't really a good call for fish. But this guy is more than a 2/x beater, he actually has an ability, one that, while expensive, is useful in the right meta. I agree that stormscape is good, and has great synergy with the deck, and I wouldn't drop him. But if you see lots of DSC or maybe even oath, he could be useful as stormscapes 5-8.

Aggro fish does not work, I do not understand how people can try to race DSC with lions and hounds. You need effecient beaters, yes, but you also need utility. The guildmage is a beater, and he has utility built in, like Pikula and kataki and Kai Budde. He may not be great, but he could be playable, testing would be the only way to tell for sure, but I stand by my opinion that he is at the very least worth testing.

@Implacable... I have stated multiple times that the guildmage may be run in the proper meta game, not as an auto-include. You have to metagame fish, or you don't win, it simply isn't that broken. If ever other match you expect to see tinker-->DSC, then playing the guildmage seems a lot better than Kataki, who I feel is the other commonly used meta slot that guildmage could raplace.

Yes indeed.  The combination of Guildmage saccing to Kai and tapping down Colossi is, while not amazing, good-just like Fish

[roberts91rom]

I am baffled as to how you people keep bringing up DSC as a problem. If that's the only reason you want guildmage, then reread this:

The problem is that Fish is a deck that only has room for metagame slots.

ctrl+C/Basically it's Stifle>Guildmage, Stormscape>guildmage, StP>guildmage and Orim's Chant>guildmage. If by turns 4-5 you don't have two ways of stopping creatures your deck is very poorly configured. StP, Stormscape, Maze of Ith and Tinker DSC vs. Tinker/Oathed DSC/ctrl+V.

Hell, I would even run Whipcorder over this janky guildmage just because he is still a 2/2 with a MUCH cheaper cost. I'm aware he costs WW, but it's still better then the guildmage because once in play, he allows you to keep dropping clocks instead of stopping your entire game plan. Fish is just like Stax. It's 90% set in stone, 10% PURE METAGAME CARDS. This guy is a whole truckload of mana that reads "Win more, because there are 3 other answers better than me. So no, he is not:

stormscapes 5-8.

He is creature removal 13-16

If ever other match you expect to see tinker-->DSC, then playing the guildmage seems a lot better than Kataki, who I feel is the other commonly used meta slot that guildmage could raplace.

If Kataki is a meta slot, then odds are that you NEED KATAKI FOR THE META. Duh? Guildmage has nothing to do with Kataki's ability, and as such you are comparing apples and watermelons. Kataki is also never a dead card. This is because it at the very least prevents moxen from being used, and it really hurts Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Mana Crypt.

[Dominik]

@ Robert: As mentioned before in this thread, the U/W Guildmage does not work on tendrils of agony. Storm is a triggered ability, while the Guildmage reads: "Counter target activated ability". So essentially, it's even worse than you thought it was.

[monSt4r]

I'm not sold on that new fish thingie, but maybe there's hope in this  "little mana intensive big bonus fish"...

Grand Arbiter Augustin IV     2WU
Legendary Creature - Human Advisor 
White spells you play cost  1 less.
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Illus. Zoltan Boros & Gabor Szikszai
2/3
#112/180


It does good to your spells, it is a better half of the sphere of resistance...and all that on a stick that does not die to everything (clasm and stuff)...if it lands it would be a bad thing to sit against it...