New format - Mana Storm

[Matt]

Player A draws:
Thrull Surgeon
Land Leeches
Anarchist
Guardian Idol
Thornwind Faeries
Gift of Estates
Farseek

Imprints Gift, Idol, and Farseek, and makes Faeries.

Player B draws:
Selesnya Evangel
Goblin Trenches
Giant Oyster
Despoil
Fledgling Dragon
Shieldmage Advocate
Ghitu Slinger
Jackalope Herd

Imprints Herd, Despoil, Shieldmage, and Slinger, and makes Giant Oyster.

20-20

Player A draws Diabolic Tutor, imprints Land Leeches, plays and uses Thrull Surgeon to take out Dragon.
Player B draws and imprints Unstable Mutation, plays Trenches and Evangel, and clamps the shell on Faeries, which pokes B.

20-19

Player A casts Diabolic Tutor for Hex.
Player B kills Faeries, draws Valor andplays it, and makes a Saproling.

20-19

Player A draws Aftershock, imprints Elvish Fury, and plays Anarchist, getting Diabolic Tutor back.
Player B draws Tower Drake, attacks with Valor (unblocked), makes a Saproling and casts Tower Drake.

18-19

Player A draws and imprints Undiscovered Paradise and plays Hex to wipe Player B's board. Anarchist swings for two.
Player B draws Twisted Experiment and passes.

18-17

Player A draws Hurr Jackal and attacks. Player B makes the Despoil-land into two Goblin Soldiers to block. Player A casts Diabolic Tutor for Reaping the Graves.
Player B draws Blind Creeper and passes.

18-17

Player A draws Skirk Commando and passes.
Player B draws Anavolver and passes.

18-17

Player A draws Oathsworn Giant, imprints it, plays a facedown Commando, a Hurr Jackal, and Reaping the Graves for Anarchist, Thrull Surgeon, and Thornwind Faeries.
Player B draws Rescind, imprints three lands, and makes double-kicked Anavolver.

18-17

Player A draws Chimeric Egg, plays Anarchist for Diabolic Tutor, makes lands out of Egg and Thrull, and Tutors for Control Magic.
Player B draws Breezekeeper, swings for 6, and casts Breezekeeper.

12-17

Player A draws Balduvian Trading post, Control Magics the Volver, Aftershocks the Breezekeeper, and attacks with Anarchist, morph, and Jackal. Player B turns the Twisted Experiment-land into tokens to kill the morph and takes 3.
Player B draws and plays Ursapine.

9-14

Player A draws Bathe in Light and attacks with everything. Player B blocks and kills the Anarchist, taking seven. Player A casts Faeries.
Player B draws Corrupt and attacks with Ursapine, which is blocked by Thornwind Faeries. Player B Corrupts for six.

3-13

Player A draws and plays Rhystic Study, and attacks for 6 with Volver.
Player B draws Palinchron, attacks with Ursapine. Player A blocks with Jackal and plays Bathe in Light to save it.

3-7

Player A draws Viashino Bey and attacks with Volver and Jackal. Player B makes six tokens with Trenches, blocks the Pup, and goes to one life. Player A casts Bey and plays Trading Post face-up.
Player B draws Llanowar Dead, makes two lands, and alpha-strikes. One token gets killed by Trading Post, and Bey blocks the Ursapine, but between Pine's ability and the three unblocked tokens, player A is dead.

[Mr. Type 4]

I've thought a lot about it as a limited format, and I think that it's good fun that way.  Although I think the value of going first will vary depending on the strength of the limited card pool.  My limited card pool was pretty intense, there was no Spore Frog, etc. I don't think that people playing it as a constructed format should take away from the limited format, I'm sure they can both coexist.   Limited has a clear edge in that it doesn't require two people with deck for a game to occur.

I got really excited about constructed when I thought about making a constructed deck just to see if I could figure out what cards were fair/unfair to put in my limited pool.  I quickly realized tha not only was this a viable constructed format, but one with A LOT of deckbuilding options, the format is wide open.  I've come up with four viable decks already.  I forgot to post these banned cards:

BANNED:  Recycle, Meloku the Clouded Mirror
COMPLETE BANNED LIST: The above cards and - Goblin Charbelcher, Flooded Shoreline, Cloudstone Curio, Horn of Greed, Storm Cauldron

WATCH LIST: Abundance

I thought of Recycle last night when you mentioned Abundance.  There are a number of abuses of Abundance, the key factor being if you call out land and you don't find one, then you get to reorder your deck.  It's not auto-win like Charbelcher, but it might be too good.  Meloku makes infinite tokens, seems just a smidge too broken.  I think that seven cards is a nice size banned list for a format that you would think would need more cards to be banned.  I have a feeling that there are probably one or two more cards out there that we haven't caught yet. 

I think I'm going to write up a little promotional piece and post it on MeanDeck to generate some more excitement about the format.  I'll post it up here, too.  Put Steve Menedian to the test and see if he can break this format. When I was talking to him on the phone he said, "I want you to have to ban a card from my deck." 

@Matt - if this whole thing gets popular, do you want to work on a real article together?  You can cover the limited aspect, talk about what you were thinking about when you got the original idea, etc.  I'll talk about constructed, show a sample deck.  Steve has a lot of connections for getting articles published, so I'm sure we can at minimum get on StarCity. 

Steve wants to maybe do a small event up in Columbus, so I want to get some people playing so that we can justify doing something like that.  I'm getting good at promoting new formats, and I think I'm going to build a few decks so people can try it out.  More than anything, I just want to get people interested so I have some people to play with. 

Mana Storm is could be the hot new casual format of the summer.

[LordHomerCat]

This format does indeed seem pretty awesome.  I guess I should actually test a little and see how Tendrils combo works in this format heh.  Seems like it should be pretty cool, this decklist has so many cool cards in it (Tainted Pact?  And finally, a format for Braingeyser!).  I'll have to see about putting it in workstation or proxying it up and see what happens, as it seems amazing.

[Harlequin]

I think makeing this a "shared" deck format would make it the most fun.  Not even nessisarily "shared" within the context of the game... but as in, you both cut the same deck in half and use that for the game.  Otherwise the ulimited-eque mana could end up leading to alot of turn1 uber brokenness.

On a side note, I think shared decks in the context of the game, make certain cards much less fun.  Anything that sorts the topdeck is just not very fun IMO.  But shared and divided I think is the best way to maximize the "fun curve"

[Mr. Type 4]

@Harlequin- If I were playing this using a limited card pool, "shared but divided" is certainly the way I would go... for sure. 

Otherwise the ulimited-eque mana could end up leading to alot of turn1 uber brokenness.

Remember you have to play Highlander and use the Legacy banned list.  You'd be surprised at how hard to is to combo out turn 1, especially since your opponent is allowed to put mana in play before the game begins so they will be able to play counter magic/instants to disrupt you.  Good luck making your turn 1 uberness count, if you over extend your mana to go nuts on turn 1, then you have fewer actual cards to play down.  You don't want to be spent before turn 2 if your opponent disrupts you.

For everyone that doesn't want to read the entire thread, here's the complete rules for MANA STORM

Getting mana screwed SUCKS.  There's just no fun in that.  You could play Type 4 if you hate getting mana screwed, but due to the nature of the format, there are so many cards that are totally unfair. 

Mana Storm solves both problems in an elegant way that at first glace may seem degenerate, but in practice is actually quite fair.  Behold, the rules:

The standard rules of Magic apply with the following additional rules:

1. Whenever you could normally play a land card, you may play any card in your hand face down (this card must be in your actual hand.  For example, you could not play a card you Spelljacked as a Super Dual Land)  These face down cards are "Super Dual Lands" which can produce any color of mana, and count as all of the basic land types. 

2. There is no limit to the number of "Super Dual Lands" you can play on each turn. 

3. The "Super Dual Lands" do not have a name. They do have subtypes (all five basic land types) but no supertypes - they are neither basic or non-basic, and they are not snow-covered. They can't be turned face-up (for example, with Lifespark Spellbomb + Break Open).  If they leave play and then return (via phasing or if they were removed from the game temporarily) they return as face down lands.

4. Before the game begins, any player not going first may put any number of Super Dual Lands into play.
(this rule may not be necessary when playing with random piles of cards)

The format can be played a number of ways, with a shared deck, with random piles of cards, unopened packs, etc.  If you're interested in playing CONSTRUCTED, read on:

The format is Highlander Legacy with the following cards also banned:
Cloudstone Curio
Flooded Shoreline
Goblin Charbelcher
Horn of Greed
Melouku the Clouded Mirror
Recycle
Storm Cauldron

[Matt]

I think the lands should still count as nonbasic, since the rules of the game define nonbasic as "any land that isn't Basic" and glossary definitions don't feel like something we should be messing with. If that means banning Back to Basics, so be it (though it would be pretty symmetrical so maybe you don't have to bother).

I would indeed be interested in doing an article.

2. There is no limit to the number of "Super Dual Lands" you can play on each turn. 

What do you think about regular face-up lands? Should there still be the 1/turn limit (making cards like Exploration not strictly useless), or should they also be unlimited? There's more than a couple lands which are more useful than SDLs - Nantuko Monastery comes to mind, as do Kjeldoran Outpost and (muahha) Lake of the Dead.

[bzl]

I think the lands should still count as nonbasic, since the rules of the game define nonbasic as "any land that isn't Basic" and glossary definitions don't feel like something we should be messing with. If that means banning Back to Basics, so be it (though it would be pretty symmetrical so maybe you don't have to bother).

For what it's worth, I think I'd worry more about Blood Moon.  That card sort of defeats the whole purpose of avoiding mana screw.  Price of Progress would have a pretty big effect on game state, too, but it's probably still fair enough.  Dwarven Miner should probably be left out of your casual limited stacks, but I'd expect him to be too slow in constructed.

[Mr. Type 4]

I was concerned about Blood Moon, too, although I hadn;t considered Price of Progress.  YEOWCH!  Still, it might be okay.  Back to Basics relates to the other point about being able to play infinite regular lands or not.  If you could play some regular lands and Back to Basics, that would be a pretty nasty strategy.  You would also play Ruination.  I'm not really sure that being able to play infinite real lands would be a problem.  How many of them are even playable?  How many are playable if the "Super duals" are not considered non-basic?

These are some difficult issues, as I can see both sides of the situation.  I'd almost rather not mess with non-basic land hate, but it's hard to say for sure.

[Harlequin]

I think the lands should still count as nonbasic, since the rules of the game define nonbasic as "any land that isn't Basic" and glossary definitions don't feel like something we should be messing with. If that means banning Back to Basics, so be it (though it would be pretty symmetrical so maybe you don't have to bother).

I would indeed be interested in doing an article.

2. There is no limit to the number of "Super Dual Lands" you can play on each turn.

What do you think about regular face-up lands? Should there still be the 1/turn limit (making cards like Exploration not strictly useless), or should they also be unlimited? There's more than a couple lands which are more useful than SDLs - Nantuko Monastery comes to mind, as do Kjeldoran Outpost and (muahha) Lake of the Dead.

I like the idea that the Super Dual does not count as a 'land for turn' concept, but actual lands do.  Otherwise Crucible + Sacrifical land could get outa hand.  Something like Chephalid Collesium or Barbarian ring might be problematic... but then again, If it's highlander, then getting a cruicible out and to stick to the board is probably hard enough to warrent a combo.

On that note, what happens to a superduel that goes to the yard?  Does it flip over or stay in the yard face down as a land... If it flips, you can use something like Zuran Orb as a discard outlet... If not, then Crucible might be a good cantidate for our Ban list.

[Matt]

Cards in graveyards are face-up at all times. If you SDL an Akroma and sac it to Zuran Orb, hooray!

You can only get SDLs from your hand. Resolving a Yawgmoth's Will does not let you play spells as SDLs from your graveyard (neither will Crucible fwiw).

That does make Uba Mask very strong, since it means that neither player will get any more SDLs as long as Mask is in play.

[Mr. Type 4]

I have discussed Uba Mask with some other people, and I think it will be a very strong card, even a win condition (+Amaggedon!)  Don't forget to include artifact removal

I'm playing with Zuran Orb in my deck, and I think it will become a format staple, especially with the number of cards that can return things from your graveyard.  Want to regrowth something you played as land? Zorb it and then cast regrowth.  Not bad for a 0cc artifact.  Of course it's no Traderoutes... I'm adding traderoutes and cards of it's ilk to the watch list, I thought of a few ways that make them broken. 

I think that 1 regular land per turn sounds good.  Let's just leave it at that, we need not have people being killed by repeating cephalid colisuem.

[Harlequin]

Ok I got a question for ya.

[card]No Rest for the Wicked[/card]

If you Zorb a bunch of SuperDuels that happen to be creatures on the other side, If you pop the No Rest, do you get them back?  I guess thats more of a rules questions.  If something is a creature in graveyard, but didnt go ~into~ the graveyard as a creature does it still get No Rested?

[Matt]

I'm not sure what the rule is, but I know whatever it is, it should follow the rules for what happens if you [card]Soul Sculptor[/card] a creature and it goes to the graveyard without reverting back first.

[Mr. Type 4]

Wow, good question.  I think matt's approach is correct.  I'll try to find out the answer to that question.

[Harlequin]

i have a feeling that this will somehow relate to the Berserk Question I asked in the rules forum.  I'm thinking it would.  At any rate, I think No Rest for the Wicked is one of the coolest cards ever printed.  The name and effect just embodies the black concept to the core.  I'm totally putting it in my deck reguardless of its SDL interaction =P 

[Mr. Type 4]

It looks like in the case of the Soul Sculptor argument, you would get the enchantized creatures back to your hand, so yeah, No Rest For the Wicked + Zuran Orb= combo.

Sweet.

[Godder]

No Rest For The Wicked says:

Sacrifice No Rest for the Wicked: Return to your hand all creature cards put into your graveyard from play since the beginning of the turn.

The Bolded text is the relevant part here - note that it says creature cards, not creatures. Therefore, any creature cards played face down as lands and sacrificed to Zuran Orb (or any other effect) will still count as creature cards once they're in the graveyard, and they were definitely 'in play', so they will be returned to hand by No Rest's effect. No Rest would also return Soul Sculptor enchantment-creatures because, again, we're looking for creature cards, and once they're in the graveyard, enchantment-creatures will revert to being creature cards.

[LordHomerCat]

So, who has decks built from this?  May 21st in Columbus would be a good time to get in some Mana Storm-ing.  I should be there, and should have a deck (at least proxied, if I don't find all the random stuff in time), even if its terrible.  I hope there will be opponents for between rounds!

[Mr. Type 4]

Is that the Soldiery tournament?  I was thinking about going to that if I could somehow trick my girlfriend into not getting irritated with me.

[Smmenen]

So, who has decks built from this?  May 21st in Columbus would be a good time to get in some Mana Storm-ing.  I should be there, and should have a deck (at least proxied, if I don't find all the random stuff in time), even if its terrible.  I hope there will be opponents for between rounds!

If you'll be there, I'll build up a deck for this.  Mwhahahahah!

[LordHomerCat]

I'll be there as long as Lyle doesn't wuss out!  Guess I should get to some testing eh.  Hmm, maybe I'll build 2 decks, Old School Zoo seems hilarious, full of draw-7's and junk!

Edit:  Stupid legacy banned list, foiling all my plans... well, at least there are like 15 2-power 1 drops available still.

[carlossb]

It´s viable the shell of the squandered-prosperity deck, isn´t it?

Squandered Resources
Cadaverous Bloom
Prosperity
Meditate
Infernal Contract

and you could add...

Mana Flare
Heartbeat of Spring

[LordHomerCat]

Don't forget High Tide!

[carlossb]

Are there enough cards to make a deck with a clear strategy, or is it more like "put in every combo card that feels broken with the fastbond-rule in mind"?

High Tide + Squandered + Storm in one deck, it´s the dream of combo players!

I think I love this new format 

[Harlequin]

With the legacy banned list as a starting point, along with the Highlander rules... Its kinda hard to build a reliable combo deck.  Whats nice though is if you have two basic themes like theme A and theme B depending on your hand your theme A cards are your win, and B becomes land or vise-versa.  I think that is the key to winning.

[carlossb]

if you have two basic themes like theme A and theme B

For example?

I thought the "themes" were card-drawing/tutors + cards that "duplicate" your mana, and a few storm-finishers

(I´m talking only about combo decks)

Or are you suggesting putting in some alternative-winning cards like Mindslaver, Negators... (like playing at the same time with a transformational sideboard maindeck)

[Harlequin]

well like, Storm combo (Draw x1,00,000) Combined with:  Greater Good + Reanimator.  then there is a deliteful overlap with Tutors.

[LordHomerCat]

I pretty much made a Storm/etc combo deck.  Its got like a million draw spells, a Tendrils, a Brain Freeze, a Rude Awakening, and a Demonfire. 

Basically, the goal was:
1) Cast a protection spell (Chant, Abeyance, etc) ;
2) Cast a Mana Flare Effect;
3) Cast a bunch of CA-neutral draw (with Tide active, Opportunity draws 4 cards, and costs 4 cards, so its a net of zero, except you have 3 more tapped lands) and CA draw (Ideas Unbound, Tidings, Meditate);
4) Cast an untap effect (Turnabout, Rude Awakening);
5) Draw the rest of the deck;
6)Play a win condition, either a storm card or a huge uncounterable Demonfire.

Alternative Options include just building up lands and cards via Boseiju against decks with too many counters and casting a Demonfire or Rude with Entwine for the win, or getting Trade Routes + a Mana Flare active, thus generating infinite mana and picking up all your lands to cast as spells and just go nuts.

Getting to play any situational answers you want is rather broken (Boseiju for instance), since you can always just make them lands and be done with it.  If someone wants, I can post my current (and a little outdated, theres SO MANY INSANE CARDS in this format) decklist up for a starting point.  It is the best deck in the history of Mana Storm, at least in terms of win-loss record =]

[carlossb]

Is it posible to use a sideboard?

(to play with Wishes)

[LordHomerCat]

I believe we agreed that no sideboards or wishboards would be allowed (it is casual, after all).  That isn't to say you can't use wishes (my deck has Burning Wish), just that you can only get cards you've removed from the game with things like Tainted Pact with them.  And hey, if nothing else, its a land.