Revisiting Stax

[Smmenen]

Revisiting Stax

Mishra’s Workshop is a monster accelerant powering out many of the most terrifying turn one plays that Vintage has to offer.  Last year, Workshop Prison decks proved that they were more than just fun and games – they won a wide swath of major events, not the least of which was the Vintage Championship, the first time that a non-Mana Drain deck had that honor. 

The inherent flaw in any Prison deck is that it has to proactively address the opposing strategies before they are permitted to unfold.  Some lock components are better than others in any given match.  Thus, your selection of lock components should be defined by the decks you expect to face.  If you miss the mark, you will likely lose as your opponent goldfishes over you or Force of Wills your threat and then laughs while they play a million permanents. 

Luckily for us, the metagame at the major Vintage events seems suited to this design approach.  In my view, Stax has to meet two goals to succeed at the moment:

1) First and foremost, Stax has to be able to absolutely destroy Gifts and Control Slaver.  That is your first task.

2) Second, Stax must be good enough to beat a wide swath of random decks it is likely to encounter in the swiss rounds of a major Vintage event. 

Instead of consciously attempting to beat all of the third tier decks, I will ensure that Stax meets the second goal by simply playing with good cards - objectively powerful lock components that don't seal every hole, but are sufficient to plug up the big ones.   In other words, I will attempt to undertake the task of beating Slaver and Gifts by reconfiguring and rebuilding Stax with objectively powerful and proven lock components.  In the process, the stax deck will be powerful enough to handle the rest of the field.   At least, that is my goal.

Chalice of the Void

This is not a card that people oogle over when they play Stax.  It’s hard to tell precisely how effective Chalice is at hosing your opponent because they’ll rarely play a spell into it.  Second, it’s abundantly evident how high the cost is to yourself.  Have you ever dropped a Chalice for 0 only to draw Black Lotus next turn?  Have you ever dropped Chalice set at 1 only to draw Ancestral Recall?  Playing Chalice is as much an article of faith as it is about format understanding. 

What opened my eyes to the raw power of Chalice was my Friggorid testing.  Chalice of the Void was a game breaking play against Slaver and Gifts.  Both Slaver and Gifts run the full range of artifact acceleration that most Combo decks play.  Both Slaver and Gifts may find themselves instantly hosed when on the draw against a Chalice for 0.  If you are on the draw, a Chalice for 0 is still not a bad play as Gifts and Slaver will use their draw to play more acceleration.  More crucially, it dramatically stunts the ability to play Yawg Will early.  In addition, Chalice can be set at 1 for a huge tempo boost at little cost to yourself.  I need not mention how powerful Chalice for 2 or 3 is against a Control deck.

This is the card that will head our Stax list.  Its presence will help us determine the remaining contents of the deck.

In deciding which components to add, I want to refer back to our objectives announced at the outset.  Which cards hose Slaver and Gifts most? 

In thinking about the cards that are most powerful against Slaver and Gifts, here is how I ranked them:

Null Rod
In the Eye of Chaos
Choke
Sphere of Resistance
Gorilla Shaman
Chains of Mephistopheles
Tangle Wire
Crucible of Worlds (unless you can tutor up Strip Mine)
Goblin Welder

Null Rod
Clearly the most powerful lock component you can play, but with a severe drawback.  This card significantly affects your own mana base and will as often shut you down as much as your opponent.  The only reason this is ranked higher than In the Eye or Choke is because of its casting cost though.

In the Eye of Chaos

This card, if it resolves, is clearly the most powerful cards you can play against both Slaver and Gifts.  Gifts costs 8 mana.  Force of Will can’t be pitch cast unless they pay 5.  Mana Drian costs 4.  The only card that really trumps this strategy is Tinker. 
This card is extremely strong against both Gifts and Slaver.  The question is whether it is sufficiently useful that we can justify running it in the maindeck.  With the rise of Storm combo like IT, I think the answer is yes.
 
Choke

With Slaver and Gifts occupying a utterly central role in this metagame, I am going to entertain the notion of playing 2-3 Chokes maindeck, and probably two.

Sphere of Resistance

2Sphere is clearly great against Gifts and Slaver, but the question is whether it will hurt me more or less than my opponent.  Plus, this card has to be weighed against the utility of Null Rod.  Sphere is great against both Gifts and Slaver primarily because it pushes Thirst into the four casting cost bracket.  In addition, it makes Gifts cost five. 

Gorilla Shaman + Karn

Gorilla Shaman has excellent synergy with Sphere of Resistence and is also a major threat to Gifts, Slaver, and storm Combo for his mana cost.  We also need a win condition, so I’ll put Karn in here as well. 

With Choke and In the Eye of Chaos, this does not leave enough room for Tangle Wire and Goblin Welder.  Both cards are much less effective without the other.  Therefore, they will probably be omitted from this list.   

In thinking about the next lock component, there are two directions we can go.  Null Rod is probably the most powerful lock component that can be added to what we have already.  However, this deck is not well suited to the use of Null Rod. 

Crucible of Worlds
Crucible is clearly a solid piece of work to combo with both Chalice and with Stack, I'll be playing with four if I can.

This leaves us with two slots.  I’d like to run a Triskelion, simply because he is so useful.  However, Null Rod is also a huge metagame bomb.  I’ll run both a Null Rod and a Trike to tutor for.  Notice that I’m not running Tinker.

Smmenen Stax

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistence
4 Crucible of Worlds

1 Null Rod
2 Choke
2 In The Eye of Chaos
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Karn
1 Triskelion

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Crap Rotation
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Balance

This decklist has been designed with the specific purpose of being able to meet both of the objectives set out at the beginning.  Now I’ll walk you through some goldfishes.

Goldfish One

Gemstone Mine
Mishra's Workshop
Sol Ring
Smokestack
Sphere of Resistence
Vampiric Tutor
Null Rod

 ?

The possible turn one plays are:

1) Vampiric Tutor
2) Null Rod
3) 2Sphere
4) Stack

When playing Stax, there are a number of considerations that you want to keep in mind regardless of what your opponent is playing or what your opponent has done.  The first consideration is efficiency.  You want to make plays that maximize your ability to lock down the game as quickly as possible.  Thus, your mana constraints will figure prominently in your decision making process.   The simple way to think about this is to ask the question: how can I empty my hand as quickly as possible? 

In this hand you can play both turn one Null Rod and Sphere of Resistance followed by a turn two Smokestack and turn three Vampiric Tutor for Crucible of Worlds.

The most efficient play is turn one Smokestack and turn two Vampiric Tutor, Null Rod, and Sphere of Resistance.  However, this illustrates the fact that efficiency can’t be our sole consideration. 

It seems to me that the most crucial card to resolve is probably Smokestack.  So, your play will probably try to bait out Force of Will or prevent them from playing it.  Thus, the turn one Sphere and Null Rod play seems reasonable.  However, there is one hitch: you have Vampiric Tutor to find another Stack if they Force the first one.  Thus, the proper play is probably:

Assuming you are on the play, I think I would play as follows:

1) Mishra’s Workshop
2) Tap Shop and play Sol Ring
3) tap Sol Ring and Smokestack.

What you Vampiric Tutor for will probably be influenced by what you drew this turn. 

The alternative is:
1) Mishra’s Workshop
2) Tap Shop and play Sol Ring
3) tap Sol Ring and play Null Rod
See if they counter it.
4) use the remaining mana to play Sphere of Resistance

Either way, this hand looks like you have a great shot at winning the game.

If you are on the draw against Slaver or Gifts, your turn one play will probably be much different.

If your opponent has gone:

Turn One:

Your opponent: Mox, Mox, Island

Your play of Null Rod is extremely threatening, but Sphere of Resistance is much less so.  Another consideration is that even if your Rod resolves, all they have to do is drop another Island and then you will risk playing Smokestack into Mana Drain, a risk of game determining proportion.  Thus, on the draw here I would probably play Smokestack and then turn two play multiple threats.  The exception to this rule if is you think your opponent is just going to combo out.  This makes Null Rod a better play.  If you are on the draw and see Crucible of Worlds, Vampiric Tutor for Strip Mine also becomes a solid play.

With the Sol Ring, you can also entertain the possibility of Vampiric Tutoring for Choke or In the Eye of Chaos and playing it. 

Goldfish Two:

Mox Jet
Lotus Petal
Chalice of the Void
Tolarian Academy
Trinisphere
Demonic Tutor
In the Eye of Chaos

This hand is fairly complicated, and like before, a lot is going to depend upon what your opponent has done and who is playing first. 

I think the right play is probably:

1) Mox Jet
2) Lotus Petal
3) Chalice 0
4) Academy
Tap it and drop In the Eye and then tap and sack petal and Jet to Demonic Tutor for  something, but what?  Probably Smokestack.

The only threatening play that your opponent can do on turn one is to Force of Will the In The Eye of Chaos or play turn one Sol Ring or Mana Vault.  The Chalice keeps them from playing cards that could accelerate their game plan and the In the Eye of Chaos turns off all of their countermagic and draw spells. 

On the other hand,  if they counter the Chalice, I would probably play the Trinisphere and follow up next turn with In the Eye of Chaos. 

So this is how its going to play out:

Turn One:
You: Mox, Petal, Chalice, Academy, In the Eye of Chaos, DT for Smokestack
Opp: Land, pass

Turn Two:
You: Smokestack
Opp: ??

At this point, you will want to set the Smokestack at one and keep it at one.  What you will then be doing is sacrificing one permanent at a time until you draw and resolve another Smokestack or a Crucible.  Keep the Smokestack in play even if they have no perms for as long as you can. 

If you are on the draw, this whole series of plays is much weaker.  Chalice for 0 may not even be the best play, but dropping In the Eye of Chaos is probably still the best threat.  A lot will also hinge on what you drew and what your opponent did.

Goldfish Three:

Lotus Petal
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Wasteland
Mana Crypt
Chalice of the Void
Sphere of Resistance

The first rule with a hand like this is to try and use Black Lotus to bait a counterspell.  Thus, your first play will be Black Lotus.  If you are on the play, clearly both Chalice of the Void and Sphere of Resistence are strong turn one plays, but you’ll need something else to follow them up.

You can drop Mana Crypt and break the Black Lotus for blue to play Sphere of Resistance followed by Ancestral to ensure that your Ancestral resolves.  This is probably the best play. 

Turn One:
1) Black Lotus
2) Mana Crypt
3) Lotus Petal
4) Tap the Mana Crypt to play Sphere of Resistance
5) Break the Black Lotus to play Ancestral Recall.

I recalled into:
Mox Pearl
Mishra’s Workshop
Smokestack

Now, you’ll probably just play Mox Pearl, Chalice for 0 and then Wasteland and pass the turn.  Next turn you’ll drop Smokestack. 

On the draw, you’ll probably want to play Ancestral and then Chalice 1 and Smokestack. 

Goldfish Four:

Strip Mine
Mana Crypt
City of Brass
Chalice of the Void
Chalice of the Void
Crucible
Smokestack

This hand is quite powerful. 
The obvious lock here is to play turn one Chalice for 0 and Crucible of Worlds.  This combination is nearly a hard lock, but it becomes one when you follow it up with Smokestack and Chalice for 1. 

On the draw, I’d probably just Strip Mine their land and play Chalice 0 and Chalice 1 followed by turn two Crucible and hopefully turn three Stack. 

Goldfish Five:

Black Lotus
Mishra’s Workshop
City of Brass
Wasteland
Sphere of Resistance
In the Eye of Chaos
Imperial Seal

On the Play:

On the play, the clear bomb is In the Eye of Chaos followed by City of Brass, Imperial Seal for Stack.  If In the Eye doesn’t resolve, then you probably want to play Workshop and Sphere of Resistance.

On the Draw:

On the draw, the correct play is probably the same as above unless you drew something relevant. 

It is hard to acontextually analyze these hands, but hopefully I’ve illustrated some of the major considerations.  It is not a bad idea to hold some of these tutors in the off chance that your opponent draws Tinker.  You will need to quickly Balance away the Darksteel Colossus. 
 
Stephen Menendian

[sean1i0]

That decklist looks really interesting and really powerful.  Have you tested out a singleton Bazaar of Baghdad in that deck?  I obviously don't have any empirical data with this decklist as to whether or not it would be good and granted it loses a lot of power without welder to make the old switcheroo, but even with just crucible and chalice it seems like it could be a potentially powerful, tutorable draw/cycling engine.

[Smmenen]

Bazaar is most powerful due to its synergy with Goblin Welder.  As this list does not run Welder or Uba Mask, Bazaar is not particularly useful.  If I were running either, I would immediately consider Bazaar.

[PucktheCat]

The problem with builds like this in the past has been Tinker->DSC.  Barring a great start with Chalice/Smokestack you are basically relying on Balance to deal with that problem.  Drain decks will nearly always lose to this build if they don't Tinker early, but that''s a big if.  What are your thoughts on this problem?  Did this build just lock the game down so quickly that that didn't matter?

[Outlaw]

The decklist looks very interesting but I believe it should have more null rods and less creatures that suck with null rod.  As a gifts player one of the most frightening things for me to see is deadly combos that involve null rod such as Sphere of Resistance or Chalice of the Void.  Sphere + Rod makes me play out my game plan using only land, while it supports your game plan by being able to waste and super power out things with workshop.  Chalice and Null Rod are amazing together also, they insure that nobody will be tinkering out any Kevin while working together (sans for mana vault and sol ring, but that also requires 3 lands).  Choke also loses effectiveness without Tanglewire, in a situation where im playing gifts I can afford to drain something large, sacrifice two lands to get 4 mana later, but with you playing a wire into it I need to deal with that right now, and with chalices in the deck it makes wire even more amazing. 

  Your play of Null Rod is extremely threatening, but Sphere of Resistance is much less so.  Another consideration is that even if your Rod resolves, all they have to do is drop another Island and then you will risk playing Smokestack into Mana Drain, a risk of game determining proportion.  Thus, on the draw here I would probably play Smokestack and then turn two play multiple threats.  The exception to this rule if is you think your opponent is just going to combo out.  This makes Null Rod a better play.  If you are on the draw and see Crucible of Worlds, Vampiric Tutor for Strip Mine also becomes a solid play.

In this situation Tanglewire would have proven its golden purpose in life, to shut down UU to prevent mana drain from destroying your game plan.  Sphere and Wire work together to prevent mana drain from eating your soul.  The decklist looks interesting, but I dont think its as efficient as it could be.

[hollowbody]

Nice deck Smmenen, but yeah, I agree that DSC is going to be a problem for you since your only removal tool is balance. maybe you could run Maze of Ith, perhaps even SB it in for  CoB or Gemstone?

Also, I like the use of In the Eye of Chaos. This is a card I used to love back in the day in my U/B prison deck which ran In the Eye, Nether Void, Stasis, Winter Orb and Black Vise to win. I think its a great card, but its use may be too narrow, despite the prevalence of combo-based decks. I fear its one of those cards that sits in your hand turn after turn because the time is not right to play it yet. To me, a card like that is a dead card, because by the time the time is 'right' you probably already have a soft, if not hard-lock on the table. Obviously, I'm sure you've tested it before you posted, but that's just what my gut seems to say.

What is the possibility of running Tangle Wire without Welders? Once you have established dominance on the board via Stack, tapping their remaining permanents is essentially a Time Walk. So what if you can't weld them in and out?

Have you tested how this deck plays in the mirror? Or how it plays against Uba?

[Tin_Mox5831]

Goldfish Two:

Mox Jet
Lotus Petal
Chalice of the Void
Tolarian Academy
Trinisphere
Demonic Tutor
In the Eye of Chaos

Great piece. I really like some parts of that build. The part I quoted is the only idea I'd dispute. I think the right play is almost always as follows:

Mox, Petal, CotV @ 0, Academy, 3Sphere

You did list this as an option, but with the added prerequisite of your Chalice being countered. I think that this is almost always the right play for the following reasons:

1) Trinisphere is a broader threat in this situation. ITEoC is a very powerful effect, but it finds itself less useful in some matchups than 3Sphere. With or without CotV, 3Sphere Time Walks you, not always so with ITEoC.

2) In the long run, ITEoC is more damning to the Drain player's gameplan than 3Sphere. Therefore, pressuring them to Force a seemingly potent threat while holding an even more powerful one is very powerful. Plus, if your CotV resolved, Mana Drain can't possibly be up to foil your Turn 2 ITEoC, basically spelling game over.

Just a thought,
Dave

[Mantis]

Turn one Trinisphere is the right play without question in my opinion. It's about the best first turn play you can make in Vintage (apart from a turn one Tendrills with storm 9). Suppose your opponent goes; Volcanic Island -> Goblin Welder. Mana Vault and Sol Ring also become unplayable and turn one Aether Vial also hurts. I see absolutely no reason to lead with ITEOC instead of 3Sphere.

A question; did you actually goldfish these hands or did you just made them up? If these hand are indeed goldfishes I must say, pretty damn impressive.

Would you mind elaborating more on your choice to not include Tinker? This card is essentially a Smokestack, Crucible, Karn or Triskelion whatever you want for just 3 mana and 2 cards. Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal also give mana disadvantage, but are not nearly as powerful as Tinker is. I actually think Tinker should be a natural inclusion to any deck that can support it and doesn't have to change the deck around too much.

[Smmenen]

I sleeved the deck up and did the first five goldfishes for this article.  People in the SCG forums were clamouring for my take on Stax.  I was going to submit this article for SCG premium, but I decided to post it here instead.  I don't think it was quite good enough.  Freebie.

The point of the article was to help reorient the community's general thinking on the construction of Stax.

Stax is an extremely flexible deck that should be built for the metagame.  Since the metagame is pretty clear - it's all gifts and slaver at the top and then a raft of various decks below that, Stax should and can be built to beat Slaver and Gifts.  That's the goal.  Then once that is accomplished, then we start to adjust.

Every card has to help those two principles.  I didn't include Tinker because, aside from turn one Trinisphere via tinker, how much does Tinker help the Slaver and Gifts matchups? I also had two Rods in for a wile, but they hurt my own deck quite a bit.

[Whatever Works]

Every card has to help those two principles.  I didn't include Tinker because, aside from turn one Trinisphere via tinker, how much does Tinker help the Slaver and Gifts matchups? I also had two Rods in for a wile, but they hurt my own deck quite a bit.

Tinkering for trinisphere is a fairly strong play. Tinker also gives a faster clock to your deck which is very helpful vs. gifts that will eventually get the mana to rebuild/e. truth (whatever)...

Also, Tinker is a card that wins the matchup of the "random" decks that you mentioned. In The Eye of Chaos + Choke are amazing... But they wont do much vs. FCG or other various bad decks that you might play against.

Overall, your list looks almost exactly like your old 5c stax list accept you replaced seal of cleansings for null rod... STP for more hate like choke. However, I liked that old 5c list.

Kyle L.

[dicemanx]

If the idea is to increase your match-up percentages against Gifts and CS, this approach looks like it's doing the opposite. Ceding the Welder war to CS or drastically increasing vulnerability to Gift's Tinker-DSC would seem to more than offset the power that ITEOC and Choke add here. Not only that, but you'd be hard pressed to find a meta that contains Gifts and CS in such high percentages with little else. How would this deck fare vs regular Stax decks with no Welders?

[Smmenen]

If the idea is to increase your match-up percentages against Gifts and CS, this approach looks like it's doing the opposite. Ceding the Welder war to CS or drastically increasing vulnerability to Gift's Tinker-DSC would seem to more than offset the power that ITEOC and Choke add here. Not only that, but you'd be hard pressed to find a meta that contains Gifts and CS in such high percentages with little else. How would this deck fare vs regular Stax decks with no Welders?

The point was to illustrate the approach to stax.  I made a decision based upon what I felt was the best way to meet those two principles.  You can disagree, as you clearly do, with the individual card choices, but the approach is undeniable.  What do you think would be the way to approach the deck then?  How would you rank the cards that I ranked in the first post?

I don't really feel like debating various card choices, but I will.

Kevin Cron was SCG Syracuse in an environment that was compeltely defeined by Control Slaver.  He did it with no Welders.

I got 9th place at SCG Richmond in May in a heavy Gifts, Slaver, and Workshop metagame with no Welders.  The Need for Welders argument just doesn't hold water. 

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=11607

I got 9th on Tiebreakers.  I think that qualifies me to talk about the deck(stax)  intelligently. 

I'm not saying you couldn't use welders, I'm just saying that they aren't necessary.  The whole welder war thing int he Stax v. Slaver mirror doesn't exist.  Slavers welders are better than yours and wahts' more, they can slave hyou and use your welders without having to use their own. 

[Revvik]

Tooling around with Chang's list makes me feel very unhappy with Goblin Welder in general.  I do really like Tangle Wire a lot though, and hate to see it cut (without Welders, it's an easier decision to remove them).  Although, with a Choke out, a single Tangle Wire can spell doom for any opposing Drain deck hoping to sit tight until an Echoing Truth can be found.

Control Slaver's Welders aren't even as serious a threat as they used to be.  My gameplan against CS was always to attack their Thirsts, which renders Welders useless anyways.  Choke and In the Eye of Chaos do that fairly effectively.

One problem I have with the presented deck is the 3cc non-artifact threats in this deck.  Goldfishing the Stax deck I have proxied up tells me that this isn't nearly as much of a problem as one would think, since one learns to make every Moxen and Gemstone activation count - but I still can see it leading to more mulligans.

The second problem is that this deck's numbers seem off.  Fixing this problem fixes the first problem:

-2 Choke
+2 Null Rod

Brings your count down to three, lowers your mana curve, improves your non-Island matchup while not hurting your Island matchup, and gives you a bit more consistency.

[Whatever Works]

Maybe I just misread DicemanX's post. But I dont think he is argueing that lists with welders are better vs. CS/Gifts. I believe he is asking what would happen in a Stax mirror match with your list (with no welders) vs. a more traditional Stax list with welders.

Looking at it purely on theory alone it would appear that the stax list with welder would have an advantage.

I think your overall approach to making a stax list is perfectly reasonable. However, I believe that your lack of inclussion of STP could hurt the CS matchup more then it is improved by various cards. I was always under the impression that 5c stax beat gifts. I remember it being meandeck gifts nightmare matchup in most situations. I also feel seal of cleansing is a very undervalued card in the CS matchup, but it is also a very versatile card vs. a wide variety of decks (dragon, CS, Stax, Fish, Oath, etc.)

Kyle L

[Pitlord]

I have been playing something simiiar to Roland Chang's latest list with a few meta game tweaks, and agree with you on some points, but disagree on a few others. The list looks solid, but here are my personal thoughts...

First, I agree that welder isn't always the best card in the deck, but he is very good in my testing. He isn't always an automatic 4-of, but he is definitly solid.

Another choice I find odd, and somewhat unsettling, is the lack of both tinker and any removal other than stack and balance. Tinker is a good card, even if you are just finding crucible with it late game, a late game crucible is better than a late game mox. Spot removal, usually StP, is often a life saver, but occasioanly dead. It's inclusion isn't definite, but warrants testing if you really want to house gifts.

One other minor point I disagree with is Karn. I tend to dislike karn in builds of stax that play null rod. He becomes a 0/8 wall mst of the time. 7/10 is usually a good choice in my opinion, esicially with a tinker. He is huge, and he wrecks random aggro decks mana, which is often very helpful.

I do agree with you on a few points as well. First of all, is the mainboard chalice. That was the first thing I changed immediatly when I was talking to Roland about his latest list. Chalice is a lot better than wire almost all of the time for me. Chalice is huge against any deck, and gets more ridiculous the faster you can drop it. Lots of people talk about the stregth of going mox, workshop, wire, pass. But that pales in comparison to mox, shop, chalice @ 2, pass. Tangle wire can buy you a fe more turns to get a good answer, but chalice can randomly answer cards, and win games.

I also tend to agree with playing 4 of both crucible and 1sphere, as these are oth awesome. 1sphere is a beating to a lot of decks, especially as decks try to push mana limits more and more. Crucible is also amazing, allowing great odds for a strip soft lock, which can randomly own any deck.


On another note, I have 1 more concern about your build of stax... Oath. I don't know how often you see oath in your meta, but I see a lot in mine, and stax doesn't have a terrific match to begin with against oath. You play no swords, and choke doesn't really bother oath a whole ton. How favorable (or unfavorable) is your matchup against oath? It doesn't look like it would be very good on paper, and I am wondering about the opinion of the creator.

[dicemanx]

The point was to illustrate the approach to stax.  I made a decision based upon what I felt was the best way to meet those two principles.  You can disagree, as you clearly do, with the individual card choices, but the approach is undeniable.  What do you think would be the way to approach the deck then?  How would you rank the cards that I ranked in the first post?

I'm not sure what you mean by "the approach is undeniable". If you mean that metagaming is important against specific top tier archetypes, then I would agree with you. However you focus on specific card choices at the cost of cards which I feel are very important not only to the Gifts/CS match up, but help you compete against Stax mirrors as well. I am very well aware that Cron was successful with a Welderless version of Stax, and you have enjoyed some measure of success as well. I would contend however that those successes came before Gifts really developed as an archetype and before people gained some measure of competency with the deck. With respect to the CS match up, I'm getting conflicting messages. You claim that the Welder war isn't an important battle to wage vs Welder, and yet I seem to get the impression from CS players and Stax players that CS does so well vs Stax precisely because Welder adds some measure of defense in addition to the standard reactive control package. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between, or perhaps you're right after all and Welder really isn't critical, but the proposed build doesn't seem like its the answer.

So how would I approach the deck then?

I think that there are two choices here. I find that there isn't anything particularly wrong with the current UbaStax and 5CStax builds - Shop decks are inherently wild and unpredictable, and as you indicate they rely on getting the right answers at the right time because they have no draw engine to speak of and cannot simply dig deep to find a specific solution. The decks aim for busted hands with multiple threats and tons of mana within the first 3 turns or so - your sample hands are perfect examples of what the deck *hopes* to be seeing, but unfortunately cannot do so with any degree of consistency. I have played Shop decks quite a lot, something that most people are probably not aware of, and they were always difficult to get to behave for me. Having combo or control win through Trinisphere, CotV and Null Rod leaves one completely exasperated, knowing that you executed your gameplan and it *still* came up short.

However it isn't necessarily correct to try to start replacing one big bomb with stronger but more conditional bombs to try to ensure that you will win. You're not going to gain much in the process; instead you exacerbate the "flaw" associated with the archetype, because results will be even more erratic. From my perspective, to win events with Shop you have to hit a hot streak and have it carry you through to the end. Sometimes you'll be an unwitting spectator, drawing conditional cards off the top non plussed that the right conditions aren't present and go down in flames.

The second choice isn't designed to seek an ideal build of Stax, or to even begin upon a quest of finding a build that can "beat CS and Gifts". I think that the ideal build of Stax that can beat Gifts and Slaver is one that is never static and always keeps changing from event to event, because even an OBJECTIVELY weaker Stax build can be ideal if it has surprise value. For example, I said that your example build suffers from one tragic flaw against Gifts, and that happens to be the Tinker-DSC plan. However, if I wasn't aware of what exactly your build contained, that vulnerability would be masked by the fact that devoting resources to Tinker isn't really a strong plan at all against certain configurations of Stax, particularly those that run Welders, Duplicants, even StP and Balance. This means that you can potentially get away with making yourself entirely vulnerable to Tinker - a case of the threat (to deal with DSC) being stronger than the execution. So long as your opponent is unclear as to what your resources are, you can gain virtual threats - threats that are non existent but they limit your opponent's strategy nonetheless.

So paradoxically, the moment you try to seek the truth (on these forums ofr example where exposure is high) and find the ideal way to contend with Gifts and CS, the further away you'll get from it. I think the recent UbaCap deck is a perfect example of this - the moment that deck got published after gaining a measure of success, and the moment the builders started on their quest to find the ideal configuration, the weaker the build got. Cap isn't a mere "metagame decision" - its an entire overhaul of strategy with a focus on specific lock pieces and control elements. But its weakened drastically the moment any list is finalized, because at that moment the opposition gets to decide how to best meet that strategy. FFY echoed this sentiment with regards to SBing. He claimed that its not so critical to have set SB plans against certain archetypes - in fact, it might be better to alter your SB plans periodically to keep opponents guessing. I've been doing something similar with my Gift SB. I personally feel that the Oath conversion isn't objectively best by any stretch, and I've played other highly contentious SB plans beofre, like running a full complement of Vaults and Fusillades in the SB. I attribute my success to not being predictable, and I also don't concern myself with seeking absolute truth because again, it is counterproductive to do so. Another example - look at JuggernautGO and his "piles" that he pilots to victories. Look terrible right? He has found the secret though to success with the archetype in my opinion. 

So how would I approach building Stax then? First, I would start with two basic premises:

1) The objectively best build is inferior to a build that is weaker or has questionable card choices but has surprise value.
2) A player consistently playing a particular archetype benefits gains virtual threats/answers via periodic rotation of individual cards or strategies

Because of these two premises, Stax to me isn't an archetype categorized as three distinct decks (5C Stax, UbaStax, UbaCap). It's an archetype that is defined by having a set mana base to which you can add from a pool of "units" - a unit being a package of cards with a high degree of synergy. An example of a "unit" is Uba Mask-Bazaar-Welder. Another example is "Smokestack-Tangle Wire-Welder". Obviously some units overlap. I also don't discount aggressive strategies (Juggernauts particularly) as too much of a departure from Stax and hence out of scope here. There are good transformational possibilities that allow the transition from Stax to Shop aggro which might be critical to swing some match-ups.

The next step is to recognize that while you should have a large density of artifacts to exploit the strength of MWShop, there isn't a single card completely sacred to Stax. Not CotV. Not Null Rod. Not Smokestack. Not Welder. We have seen Stax decks making t8s at major events lacking some of these cards. What you believe is absolutely necessary to combat a certain archetype can be your downfall. Look at CotV and Null Rod, and how critical they are perceived to be in order to defeat fast combo and fight control. And just how successful are they? Not very. Decks like Gifts and IT have risen to the occasion and adapted, precisely because the Stax deck has remained static and left its chin exposed. How do they win? They have the ability to sit on their basics and fetches, and utilize their immense tutoring power to fetch a Rebuild (or Hurkyl's) and that damn card absolutely wrecks house. So how can Stax cope? You outlined a perfectly awesome way to do so - via non-artifact lock pieces like Choke or In the Eye of Chaos. So wait, didn't I express my disdain for your approach? Not at all. I'm attacking the process you set out to accomplish this, rather than the individual card choices themselves.

Another way to fight against such defensive strategy is adopt an agressive approach. While control and combo are fixated on defending themselves against Wastelands and having ways to defeat Null Rod and CotV, they can expose themselves to either losing via fast beats backed by enough disruption (Juggernaut plan perhaps coupled with Pyrostatic Pillar) or by Jester's Cap. If we're going to sacrifice slots for conditional cards, we can also consider a complement of counters - REBs and/or Pyroblasts. There is a final possibility - Stax has an option of being a turn 2 combo deck. There are at least 3 different instant-win combo approaches that can be used: Time Vault-Lodestone Myr, Time Vault Fusillade, and Metalworker-Staff. A deck like Hyper-MUD has used two of these with some success. So have decks with just the Staff-Worker combo. These decks still overlap with Stax because they use a fair share of prison components like Smokestack, Tangle Wire, CotV, and Trinisphere/SoR; they may be "weaker" than traditional Stax, but they have gained some measure of success because of the surprise factor.

Which plan out of the four is best is almost beside the point. It's more important to keep them guessing so that any given plan has increased likelihood of succeeding.

So as an initial starting point, we might as well make a list of potential candidates for main deck inclusion (aside from a mana base that's almost set in stone, apart from colored sources that can either be 5C or mono-R). We won't consider the SB yet. We'll also note that there is absolutely no sacred cow in Stax, but its a given that there should ideally be a large artifact density. I'll refrain also from being completely exhaustive, and leave certain options out for the time being (like Granite Shard, Mind's Desire, Yawgmoth's Will or March of the Machines for example):

Artifacts:

Smokestack
Tangle Wire
Sphere of Resistance
Trinisphere
Null Rod
Chalice of the Void
Uba Mask
Crucible of Worlds
Jester's Cap
Mindslaver

Artifact creatures:

Karn
Duplicant
Triskelion
Razormane Masticore
Sundering Titan
Juggernaut
Metalworker

Non-artifact creatures:

Goblin Welder
Gorilla Shaman

Card draw/tutoring/other:

Ancient Tomb
Bazaar of Baghdad
Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Imperial Seal
Tinker
Crop Rotation
Fastbond
Balance
Swords to Plowshares
Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Choke
In the Eye of Chaos
Chains of Mephistopheles
Pyrostatic Pillar


Fast combo components:

Time Vault
Flame Fusillade
Lodestone Myr
Metalworker

Other considerations (thought to be "weak" or outdated at least):

Su-Chi
Gilded Lotus
Transmute Artifact
Thirst for Knowledge
Meditate
Blood Moon

I always hesitate to discard ideas completely, because the environment tends to change so much that cards need to be constantly re-evaluated.

Now as I said before, certain cards here are part of units, and certain combinations are mutually exclusive. For instance Uba Mask lends itself to Bazaar and Welder as a unit, while Trike and Karn are a poor idea with multiple Null Rods. We've already seen Evenpence and Yespuhyren rotate through some UbaStax options, including UbaCap and UbaWire, and UbaSphere. Smmenen proposed some options with Choke and In the Eye of Chaos. We've already seen the more standard 5C Stax decks. Let's examine some alternate approaches:

Combo-Stax (aka HyperMUD II)
===================

4 CotV
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance

4 Metalworker
3 Staff of Domination

4 Time Vault
4 Lodestone Myr
3 Flame Fusillade

7 SoLoMox
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
7 Mountain

The idea is simple - generate a two pronged attack via either the prison route (centered around Smokestack) or combo off via a number of different combos. Tangle Wire and Spheres all assist is creating suitable conditions for comboing, while Ancient Tombs add to the mana explosiveness so the deck isn't so dependent on Workshop. CoWs are absent, because without an effective way to find Strip Mine and because Wastelands are finding fewer targets these days, CoWs uses are limited. Feeding Smokestack with CoW is superfluous.


Aggro-Cap
======

4 CotV
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Jester's Cap
1 Mindslaver

4 Juggernaut
3 Su-Chi
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant

4 Goblin Welder

1 Tinker
3 Transmute Artifact
1 Ancestral Recall

3 Gilded Lotus
3 Metalworker
7 SoLoMox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Volcanic Island
3 Shivan Reef

A balls-to-the-wall approach. Why sit and wait after locking down initially when you can beat down and end the game quickly. Alternately, you can set up very quick Caps and win that way, or use the Transmutes to deposit artifacts into the grave for Welder. Mindslaver is a lot easier to activate in this build, and if Needle his Cap then Slaver is the go-to guy.

In any case, I'm not trying to generate ideal polished builds here. I've simply presented some examples of ways in which you can take the fight to the decks that give you trouble, trouble precisely because of the static nature of Stax builds these days and the unwillingness to be more flexible with the "prison" approach.  If they are meticulous in not presenting Wasteland targets, try not running CoW to make room. If their game plan is bounce then win, try to be aggressive and win first or go for Cap activation, or try the Choke/ITEOC plan etc.   

[g0tenks00]

@Smmenen
Given the approach that you're taking, how would you begin constructing the sideboard?

Don't double post.  Edit your original post. -Klep

[Whatever Works]

DicemanX that was extremely well written and informative. You sooo should be an SCG writer. However, I prefer having your articles/comments remain free.

Kyle L.
Comments like this should be kept to PM.

[Disburden]

The best thing about Prismatic (5c )stax is that the sideboard is very versitile for a Stax deck. If you look back to Cron's list without welders you can find all kinds of things in his board:

Ground Seal
Seal of Cleansing
Chains
Propaganda
Duress
Shattering Spree
Tormod's Crypt
Ghostly Prison
MEDDLING MAGE

etc.

The options are pretty much endless. You'd have to know what your metagame is to play the board right. The best thig about Kevin's lists without Welders is that the board kills his opponents after game one. He never picks cards that are limited to one use, he hates narrow cards, and will try to get multiple uses out of hise boarding options.

[frolll]

Talking about sideboard, you can also go with things like :


Old Man of the Sea
Drop of Honey (OMFG)
Ray of Revelation
Black Market
Viashino Heretic
Transmute Artifact --->Mindslaver/Sundering Titan/Duplicant/Colossus maybe
Arcane Laboratory/Rule of Law
Moat (this one is ugly)
Swords to Plowshares
Humility
Fire/Ice
Eon Hub
...


So many insane plays could happen when playing 5c Stax

BTW, very good job DicemanX

[yespuhyren]

Enchantments are my favorite cards for Stax, because they are so tough to remove.  My current SB (I couldn't fit any MD, although I tried a green splash for Chokes, but I just didn't like it.  I am using the following at the moment in my SB:

4x Goblin Bombardment (Oath - hard for them to kill, not null roddable, easy to cast)
4x Pyrostatic Pillar (Combo - They can't bounce it with anything but chain, and I try and set Chalice@1 ASAP anyways)

[hollowbody]

I like the Pyrostatic Pillars as well, but I would keep them more to an UbaStax build. They seem to fit in more nicely there than in traditional Stax.

[yespuhyren]

Yeah, That is what I run.  The Jester is mono red.

[Disburden]

I am one very happy Stax player to see this thread started by Steve Menendian. I have been playing Stax for over a year now and my fondest build of the deck was the version that Kevin Cron used without Welders. The deck had success and soon an amazing article on SCG was revealed on the deck's card choices and the Welder issue. The reason, I think, that the deck hasn't been seen often is due to Darksteel Colossus being around so much; when people fear this beater they see welder as the best option to remove the card, and then there's the other reason which is Roland Chang won a Vintage Championship with his Wires and Welders version. People pick up what does best at the moment. The reason the deck locks out the opponent so well is the opening hand is pretty much on Steroids from the start of the game. I really never have liked Welders in my opening hand, they don't put a lock threat on the table which is a wasted start, Imo. Stax needs to play smokestack, Chalice, Null Rods, Sphere of Resistance, and Trinisphere to put the pressure onto an opponent asap. All welder says is, "Hey,  don't tinker for Colossus just yet." and "Hey, I can welder in a threat later if you deal with it somehow soon." That isn't enough. Goblin Welder can be used as Force of Will bait though, but I have seen people holding Forces for bigger threats more-so than countering a goblin. This is why the needs for more repetitive onslaught of lock pieces is necessary, especially in a Drain filled meta (where I play). A list of threats such as:

4 Crucible
4 Smokestacks
1 Trinisphere
4 sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
2 In the Eye of Chaos
2 Choke
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Chains
Null Rod

That is a whole lot of stuff to counter. It makes the Drain player make some very hard decisions. Whether choosing to counter In The Eye of Chaos and then following up with a Smokestack is just brutal. The Gifts matchup gets a lot better when you think of how hot Meddling Mage is in this match-up. Yet another must counter card for stax where Spheres, Chalices, etc, can be baited with/ for.
I strongly feel that the deck doesn't need welders as much as the some people may think. Ground Seal does wonders against the opposing Sides Welders.

 I wish I could go on for 5 pages, but I worked 16 hours today and yesterday.


Edit: I also forgot to mention that True Believer can be used against Gifts. This is still used in Fish today, but I have yet to see it in Stax. Does anyone have any answer as to why?

[yespuhyren]

The biggest issue is IF they manage to tinker, and you can't ramp smokey up high enough, you lose, end of story.

[sean1i0]

Well, you still have balance.  Even though it's restricted and even though this deck doesn't really have a draw engine, it has enough tutors to be able to get rid of a colossus in theory.  It could also run swords to plowshares sideboard if colossus were to present a significant enough percentage of game losses (or even one in the maindeck if that percentage were to be high enough).

[Pitlord]

Balance usually isn't enough, because they will usually save a counter if at all possible if they even think you play it and they can win with DSC.

On the issue of true believer, it is not generally played in stax because it is a very soft lock and difficult to cast, as well as being easy to remove. A 2/2 doens't really count as a threat in a deck like stax, and the ability is usually weak. Most decks that it would stop can deal with him pretty easily. His other issue is the WW cost, which is pretty steep color-wise for such a soft lock part.

[Disburden]

I would like to see how many players actually have been testing the Control Match-up with the list Steve posted. I can't test right now due to MWS being frustrating and I work all the time. Steve made the list to fight against Control decks, today most use DSC, so he must've had these little points everyone has mentioned in mind already. Any thoughts anyone that has actually tested and isn't theorizing?

[Frank@TO]

This decklist could probably benefit from duplicants if you find your main problem is DSC.
Also i think you'll find choke is too specific and performs almost the same job as in the eye of chaos and sphere of Resistance.
Tinker + duplicant is good (possibly add a 7/10?) but tinker might be difficult to use in this deck because of workshops but it may be worth testing. Still you have other tutors that usually search for artifacts so you may aswell have it come into play directly. Also it is another powerfull tutor effect that gets around a chalice that blocks the other tutor effects.
Another thing about this list is that it you never want more then one crucible and since you are already testing tinker in it and the deck has a lot of search it may be worth it to cut them down to 3.

Also you may want to consider a single Pithing needles instead of null rod as this deck would appear to roll over to welders.

edited for readability.

[Harlequin]

A few comments:
How do expect to beat a turn 1 opponent's welder?  Just chalice for 1 ASAP?  It seems like if they get a welder to resolve you're more or less totally boned.  Any thoughts on this?

As far as the sideboard.  I played around with a mon-brown deck for a long time.  And I ran 4 maindeck Chalice and no welders so chalice for 1 was the anti-welder plan.  On the board I had:
3 Eon Hubs
4 Dampening Matrix
3 Razormane masticore

Rather savage.  Eon Hub would seem like a good in-out for smokestax against Stax, Oath, Ichorid, and Fish (against kataki/flux).. all decks where the permenant count is rather in-consiquentional as compaired to how much actually happens durring the upkeep.  Against Stax you I had the Matrix to shut of welders and mox monkey and heratics and karn all in one card.  Not bad.  Lastly I don't know any aggro deck that can race the Razormane and hope to win.  He is an absolute crazy house.  If you add in Eon Hub he just gets uber broken.  Eon Hub + Razore mane = GG fish.

Now the deck houseing these cards was completely different and ultimately did not work.  But there were some undeniably fantasticly good cards in it.... for the type of deck that it was.