A Starting Point

[Implacable]

Hello.  My name is Implacable, and I'm pretty new to the ManaDrain community.  I'd like to take this opportunity to have all of you kindly look at this deck, which is predicated upon the idea that a deck that focuses on tempo and denial, similar to Fish but with better cards, can succeed in Type 1.

Tempo.dec

Creatures (12):

4 Birds of Paradise
These are beautiful beyond compare.  They stabilize the mana base, pump out turn two Efreets with Rancor, and sacrifice themselves to Therapy.

4 Dark Confidant
Bob is one of the best black creatures ever printed.  He draws me cards and swings for two.  He's also very efficient with Birds; the extra mana lets me play the extra cards.

4 Serendib Efreet
Serendib provides an actual clock for this deck.  He has evasion, which is good, and he gets quite nasty in combination with Rancor.  More importantly, he's efficient.  The ping is annoying, but manageable; I should kill pretty quickly.

Spells(26)

4 Duress
Duress and Cabal Therapy provide the best one-two punch available today in type 1; Therapy supplants Hymn to Tourach's long-time status in that respect.  Duress acts as a sort of rifle-sight for my Therapy's, as well as taking away random brokenness.

4 Cabal Therapy
Therapy is just flat-out amazing right now.  It works quite nicely against the more consistant decks that are popping up right now, like UbaStax, and works well with Duress.

4 Daze
Daze is, at first, a card at which many players might laugh out loud, but, in fact, it's actually quite good.  My whole strategy revolves around denying my opponent in the early game, and Daze supplements Duress and Cabal Therapy by eliminating what the opponent is allowed to keep.

4 Mana Leak
I needed to play a harder counter than Daze in this deck, and Mana Leak was the only thing that fit the bill.  Drain costs UU, which is hard to get at, and Force takes blue cards, which there just aren't enough of. 

4 Null Rod
The Nulls Rods are used to help even out the Stax matchup by slowing them down.

3 Diabolic Edict
The reason for these is kind of obvious.  I have no urge to just fold over to a turn 1/2 Collossus. 

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
Broken.  I like it.

Mana Sources(22):

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
Self-explanatory.

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
Without Birds, I really couldn't afford to play with these, but with the extra mana stability, these combine with my two-drops to own face.

2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
The mana base is a bit funky, but it's about as good as it gets.  Playing three colors, I couldn't find any places to cut duals for basics, so the deck is a bit vulnerable to Wastes, but I didn't see an alternative. 


Sideboard:

4 Tormod's Crypt
They're just a house against most of the format.  I couldn't find space in the main, but in games 2 and 3, they come in more often than not.

4 Energy Flux
They're amazing against Stax, which is otherwise just a plain cruddy matchup in a lot of ways.

4 Blue Elemental Blast
This is more of a meta-game choice.  There are two or three people around hereabouts who play FCG.

3 Naturalize
It gets around Chalice for 1.  That's all that I ask.

I would really appreciate feedback on this deck.  I was experimenting with U/G, and hit upon the idea of adding black for great stuff life Bob and Duress.  Thanks in advance for looking at this!

[Moxlotus]

I really don't think Birds and Serendibs should be in the deck.  Birds don't beat unless they have a Rancor.  Serendibs are nice beaters, but usually creatures need some other function besides simply smashing face.  I'd also question Rancor in a deck with only 12 creatures.

Why would you ever play with Twister?  So you can give them a hand after you Duress and Therapy it away?  Twist is pretty terrible in aggro decks.

I'd suggest Null Rod to help slow down your opponents enough so you can beat them before they combo out.

The deck looks somewhat strong against Drains, but it looks really weak against Stax.

[Implacable]

Good call on Timetwister.  I must admit that I threw it in somewhat haphazardly: a bad decision on my part.  I agree with you to an extent on Rancor, but I don't agree with you about the Birds or the Efreets.  An aggro deck needs to deal damage to win, and Efreets provide that.  Birds are amazing with Therapy, and spead up the whole deck as well as stabilize the mana base.  I think that I will replace the Rancors with Null Rods; you make a good point about them being very necessary.  Thanks for the advice!

[Moxlotus]

An aggro deck needs to deal damage to win, and Efreets provide that.

And that's why aggro decks aren't viable--unless they are Ichorid.  They do damage and that's it.  Any combo or control-combo deck can out-race damage.  There is a reason why fish decks don't use stuff like Serendib, but instead run creatures that slow down your opponent.

That said, you still need to do some damage.  Birds don't do that.  You only have 8 sources of damage.  How are you going to be smashing face when you are expected to only about 2 each game?

[Implacable]

Do you have any suggestions for good creatures for this deck?  Perhaps a Wild Mongrel/Basking Rootwalla combination might work, or something that disrupts the opponent. I'm not sure.  I really am of the opinion that, properly designed, some sort of aggro/control deck that's not Fish or Ichorid can be viable in Type 1.  I believe that the right combination of counterspells, discard, and solid creatures can win the game in any format.  Am I just plain flat-out wrong? 

[nataz]

I really am of the opinion that, properly designed, some sort of aggro/control deck that's not Fish or Ichorid can be viable in Type 1.  I believe that the right combination of counterspells, discard, and solid creatures can win the game in any format.  Am I just plain flat-out wrong?

part of the problem is that almost every aggro-control deck w/ counters and small critters can be/and often is called "fish", so its hard to make a deck therefore w/ counters and small beats that *isnt* called fish. Looking at your deck the archetype U/G/B "fish" immediately pops into mind.

[Implacable]

I really am of the opinion that, properly designed, some sort of aggro/control deck that's not Fish or Ichorid can be viable in Type 1.  I believe that the right combination of counterspells, discard, and solid creatures can win the game in any format.  Am I just plain flat-out wrong?

part of the problem is that almost every aggro-control deck w/ counters and small critters can be/and often is called "fish", so its hard to make a deck therefore w/ counters and small beats that *isnt* called fish. Looking at your deck the archetype U/G/B "fish" immediately pops into mind.

Oh, that doesn't matter.  Let me put it this way: I have no interest in creating another aggro/control U/w Wizard deck.  Whatever people call it doesn't particularly matter to me.

[GrandpaBelcher]

It kind of looks like this wants to be a very aggressive build of UB Fish.  You have Birds in there to fix a manabase that is really only skewed by using Birds and some sideboard cards.  You could cut Birds and the Rancors and just add some more blue and black mana sources.  Or, you could go UGb and just use Dark Confidant for card drawing and no other black, allowing you to fetch a black-producing land just to put Bob into play.  Even then, I don't know that I would use Birds since they're just a target for someone to effectively Time Walk you, and you're not accelerating into anything fancy.

Green has a lot of underrated disruption and cards that make your opponents hesitate before doing something (like Hidden Guerillas or Gibbons), so I'm sure you could go UG with a good draw engine like Ninja of the Deep Hours.

Black gives you tutoring power, Dark Confidant, and the disruption you've already found, all of which make it a solid choice as well.

[Implacable]

You make some really good points, Loch'.  There really are two choices here.  I've been reading over the tournament reports in this very forum, and I really like the Hidden cards, especially Guerrillas and Ancients.  We could choose to beat with those and support with countermagic, or we could cut down on green:

U/G

4 Hidden Gibbons
4 Hidden Ancient
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Serendib Efreet

4 Daze
4 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Rancor
2 Rushing River
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

3 LoMoxen
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Island

U/B

4 Dark Confidant
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Flying Men
4 Rootwater Thief

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Underground Sea
3 LoMoxen
3 Island
3 Swamp


And that's that.  What do you think of them?  Are they redeemable?

[GrandpaBelcher]

Really, either one looks pretty good.  Time and playtesting will tell whether they'll stand up in a tournament, of course, but you've got a lot of room to work and a lot of possible metagame slots.  I, for one, would play Withered Wretch in the UB build and try to find some room for a Seedtime or two in the UG build.

Also, though Rancor is really good and fairly broken in an aggressive deck, I'm not sure if it's right in Fish.  You already have a fast clock with Serendib and hidden creatures, so I'm thinking you might try to out-draw your opponent with Curiosity in the Rancor slot.  I would also really try to fit in some other actual creatures in the UG build.  Hidden Guerillas and Gibbons might make your opponent reconsider dropping a mox without a reason, but they won't stall them all day and until then you're stuck without a clock.  Try cutting four of them in favor of something quick that can turn into Ninja.

I have a UB Fish that I'm working on now using Confidant and I passed up using Ninja in favor of cheaper draw spells.  I don't mind flipping up Force of Will with Confidant (unless I'm at 10 life with two Confidants in play and flip up two of them in a row  ) but I wasn't ready to take the leap and run too many things that would kill me outright.  Try Curiosity again or Brainstorm, Impulse, or Standstill.  The odds are still in your favor with all 8 +4cc spells, but why put undue strain on them?

[Implacable]

I think that I'll play with the U/G a bit more, because I like its clocks better and I think it might be a touch better against Tendrils.dec.  Thanks for all of the help, Loch'!

[Bill Copes]

I don't think the ninjas suit the new list very well.  If your opponent pops a gibbons or ancient, do you really want to be returning it to your hand for the ninjitsu?  4 Serendibs seems like a little much as well.

The rare times I get to play this game, I usually play a U/G fish type deck.

Here's the creature suite:

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwallah
3 Flying Men
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Waterfront Bouncer

Flying men and rootwallah's are great because they drop for one and ninjitsu out/replay easily.

Bouncers are the maindeck oath/colossus answer.

I'd move the hidden creatures to the sideboard...at least the gibbons, because they're kind of conditional. (with so much stax floating around, your opponent might not even be playing instants).

The Hidden Ancients are nice enough to stay main, i think.

[Implacable]

Hmmm...  I think that I will reconfigure my creature base a bit, but I'm not even sure that I'll play the Ninja's any more.  While there are certainly advantages to playing your deck with slightly faster creatures that lend more synergy and card advantage, I prefer the Efreets because they block Ichorids all day (of which there about four decks in my meta) as well as really applying the beats to the opponent. 

On another note, what do you think about playing Hidden Guerrillas instead of Ancient?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Tinker->DSC >>>> Any other "vanilla" beater.  Why play Serendib (or any other 3 mana creature for that matter) when you can have DSC for the same price?

As for the hidden creatures, any decent player can and will play around them.  Oath is delighted that you've saved them the trouble of finding Forbidden Orchard by playing Hidden Ancients.  Hidden Herd is *marginally* useful, but the fact is that even a 3/3 for one mana isn't good enough in T1.

Looking at your U/B list, you need to realize that paying 1UU over two turns to draw an extra card every turn is *not* worth it.  Once upon a time, Oscar Tan did a set review of Apocalypse (when it was new) and conluded that Phyrexian Arena was not good enough to see play.  Further, he said that even at 1UU, it still sucked.  He was talking about a much slower and more card-advantage oriented environment.

If you're going to play U/B, include some cards that actually hose archetypes like Withered Wretch.  Card drawing is nice but you should never be winning counter wars.  Simply put, if you have the mana open to win a counter war, you're doing something very very wrong.

[Implacable]

First off, let's deal with what I agree with completely.  You're entirely right about the U/B deck.  How does this look?

4 Withered Wretch
4 Flying Men
4 Dark Confidant
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

3 LoMoxen
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Swamp
3 Island

On the case of the U/G deck, I both agree and disagree.  I really think that the Hidden creatures are quite excellent if metagame-fixed before a tournament, and admit to being somewhat confused about one of your points.  How does having a Hidden Ancients remove the need to get Forbidden Orchard?  It's not a creature before they play Oath...  I am, however, forced to agree with you regarding the Efreets.  I think, perhaps, that I should experiment with Abdullah's creature list.  In that case, the deck looks something like this:

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Flying Men
2 Waterfront Bouncer

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush
1 Time Walk

2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
3 LoMoxen
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Forest
3 Island

I really appreciate all of your help, guys, and I could sure use more of it!

[GrandpaBelcher]

I really like the look of the UB list at this point.  However, I don't think I would run Dark Confidant and 10 +4cc spells (Ninja, Force, MisD) without running Brainstorm.  Brainstorm will get you better cards when you need them and will save some life when you're drawing with Bob.  I'm not sure if you have enough shuffle effects to do that reliably, though, so I'm not sure.  Maybe cut MisD and a Ninja for three of them?

Also, I'm not sure about your metagame, but don't forget about the possibility of running Null Rod in either build.  It does a lot for two mana.

Hidden Ancients solves Oath's Forbidden Orchard problem by conveniently becoming a creature when they play Oath, so suddenly they can Oath on their next turn while you attack them with treefolk.  I wouldn't even consider Ancients because who plays that many artifacts.  Most people play blue, though, and the almost everyone plays a bunch of artifacts.  That's why the Gibbons and Guerillas are decent if they show up at the right times.

[Implacable]

Good call on the incompatibility with Confidant and high-CCs.  I think I'll cut the Consult, the MisD's, and a Ninja for 4 Brainstorm.

On the note of the U/G, I have some pretty radical changes to that decklist.  I think I'll be cutting away most of the inneffective creatures, like the Hiddens, for some of the creatures that Butcher suggested.  I think that I was wrong to think that just beaters could work.

[LordHomerCat]

Small note on the last UB build.  Please use polluted deltas over flooded strand and bloodstained mire, since they fetch BOTH you colors and basics.

[Implacable]

Small note on the last UB build.  Please use polluted deltas over flooded strand and bloodstained mire, since they fetch BOTH you colors and basics.

I considered that, but am not sure about that, because I like to keep resiliency in the face of prevention.  Pithing Needle naming Delta is the suck.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Small note on the last UB build.  Please use polluted deltas over flooded strand and bloodstained mire, since they fetch BOTH you colors and basics.

I considered that, but am not sure about that, because I like to keep resiliency in the face of prevention.  Pithing Needle naming Delta is the suck.

You could still run *some* Deltas.  Good players won't drop a Needle until the permanent they intend to name is on the table unless they're *very* worried about it the same turn it hits play: ie. Bazaar or Belcher.  I'd go so far as saying an early game Needle naming a fetch (that's probably in their deck) is idiotic.  Even following your logic, your Mires are more namable than Deltas if only because they probably also run Deltas.

[Implacable]

You make good points.  I'll change the list.

[Fred The Ev]

While there are certainly advantages to playing your deck with slightly faster creatures that lend more synergy and card advantage, I prefer the Efreets because they block Ichorids all day (of which there about four decks in my meta) as well as really applying the beats to the opponent.

Efreets die when they block ichorids. They block them all right, but then your opponent (if he has brains) will have dredged up a darkblast and your Efreet will die.

The decklists look excellent except the Flying Men. The thing about flying men is although they have evasion, having only a ninja in the deck to make use of that is not going to be enough for them to really be effective. You need something that has really good synergy with them like jittles or curiosity. Without those you really just have 4 1-a-turn beatsticks that really aren't going to have much effect on the game.

[Implacable]

*Shrug*.  You're probably right.  My game against Ichorid, no matter which variant I run, is the pits, especially Game 1.  With Crypt, Wastes, Stifles, and other stuff game 2, I have a shot, but it's still ugly.  I've been experimenting with a mono-blue variant, which has some disadvantages and advantages to it.  It has a superior matchup against combo because it runs so much disruption, and, while being quite slow, seems to work out to have pretty solid countermagic.  One thing that I have to say; Daze effects are my MVP.  Spiketail and Daze itself are just amazing; they slow down tempo by a turn and block random Thirsts. 

4 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Cloud of Faeries
3 Flying Men
3 Serendib Efreet

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Curiousity
3 Null Rod
3 Back to Basics
3 Stifle
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush
1 Time Walk

16 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire

Some of the creatures don't seem that amazing; they are not.  They are Curiousity targets, plain and simple.  That card is just amazing in almost any matchup.  It gives me nuts card-advantage.  I remember one game against GrimLong where, on turn 2, I swung with a tricurious Cloud of Faeries.  Stifle's an interesting choice; dead occasionally, but perfect for the deck.  The combination of 14 mana-denial spells and 8 Daze effects is very, very powerful, even in this format.

[Juggernaut GO]

I built a U/B fishy deck that smashes pretty good.  If features dimir cutpurse which I think is an extremely underplayed card in fish.

4 polluted delta
2 island
1 swamp
3 underground sea
2 mishra's factory
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 mox jet
1 mox sapphire
1 black lotus

4 ninja of the deep hours
4 flying men
4 dimir cutpurse
4 dark confidant

1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
2 misdirection
4 force of will
3 daze
1 echoing truth
4 duress
4 brainstorm
4 null rod



Also, to address issues that some people have with fish VS. Ichorid.  You have plenty of blockers.  Ichorid can not win if you keep blocking ichorid.  Their deck will run out of black creatures to remove before they kill you. If you keep them off black mana they can't bring back ashen ghouls either, which shouldn't be a problem seeing how few colored mana the deck runs.

Fish has plenty of sideboard options against ichorid as well, expecially U/B seeing as you can board in darkblasts and tormod crypts.

[Implacable]

You're probably right.  The problem, however, that I see in the Ichorid matchup, is that it is so fast.  By the time that a Fish deck can play two creatures, an Ichorid deck has potentially done 24 damage.

[LordHomerCat]

If there's really a huge percentage of Ichorid players in your meta, you could run Leylines in the board.  With Daze and Force, you should be able to deal with Chain of Vapors, or at least buy yourself enough time to find some solid men or B2B or something.

[AmbivalentDuck]

@JuggernautGo

Two questions about your UB Fish build:

1.  Why Flying Men over Greyscaled Gharial?  Akroma and Fish creatures can't block the Gharial.

2.  You're finding that you can get the Cutpurse into play against Control?  I've had major difficulties resolving Sword of Fire and Ice and Crucible of Worlds, so I never looked carefully at Cutpurse.

[Juggernaut GO]

this deck runs enough countermagic and duress to get a cutpurse to resolve without a problem.  Also, it runs enough ways to generate insane card advantage between ninja's and confidants.  Cutpurse is a great way to keep your opponents far behind, and unable to catch up.

Also oath has dropped off the radar in my area, and I wouldn't run gharial strictly because it can be blocked if you run into the situation where your opponent doesn't run islands.  Getting a 2nd turn ninja or confidant is the best way to start your opponents on a downward spiral.

[frontier]

I built a U/B fishy deck that smashes pretty good.  If features dimir cutpurse which I think is an extremely underplayed card in fish.

2 island
3 underground sea

4 dimir cutpurse

3 daze
1 echoing truth

Running 3 daze having only 5 islands? Maybe. But I dislike Dimir Cutpurse in this list. He is slow, he has to pass through blockers, has to deal damage. You should have some items to clear way for him or protect him like MUC does . 1 echoing truth looks techy... 4 Null Rod maindeck depends on meta of course.