Flame Fusilade + Time Vault no longer functional on Monday, 4/24/06

[Matt]

Re:Dragon

I've said this for years, but I guess no one listens to lil' ol' me. If they fix the dragon combo, it's the animate spells they'll errata not the dragon. The animate spells already require an Oracle lookup since the words actually on the card make no sense any longer, so there's little chance of someone being "out of the loop" and playing the card as worded, which is their primary motivation for the semi-moratorium on errata.

[Pyromaniac]

This unfortunately is SOO wizards' like

Man, I wonder what 'crap' we're gonna put up with next. Errata Mask AGAIN?!? Errata Dragon to become more stupid if you add the "From your hand" clause? Errata Bazaar to be only playable in your upkeep? Errata Squee for that extent?

[The Atog Lord]

Errata Dragon to become more stupid if you add the "From your hand" clause?

Maybe I'm a bit slow, but how would this break Dragon?

[jpmeyer]

I'm really not sure what I think about this.  I don't see it as making the card work the way that "the card was intended" and thus paving the way for more errata-based nerfings, but rather making the card adhere to the rules of Magic.  Of course, the problem here is that there is that whole Golden Rule of "cards override the rules when there is a conflict", which complicates things.  A lot.

[Yare]

I share most of Steve's sentiment.  This is very upsetting, particularly because of the short notice and after the precedent (of the combo being "ok") had been established.  As soon as I finished reading it, I literally said aloud "It's complete bullshit [their reasoning], but it's interesting."  They are lying through their teeth. 

Edit: With regard to the secondary markey, this is atrocious.  This is worse than a restriction because they have effectively BANNED Time Vault and replaced it with this new card, "Time Lockbox."  "Time Vault" has ceased to exist in every sense.  It makes one wonder what other cards will be pseudo-banned in the future.  THAT is a serious problem.

This does not bode well for Vintage.

[sean1i0]

I'm pretty pissed about this myself.  I think it was pretty shitty of them to let everyone spend all their money on these cards, in Vintage and Legacy, and then, out of the blue, have all those cards devalue.  It also makes a complete mockery of their no-reprint policy, since this will do worse things to the card than reprinting it and since it will affect collectors a.k.a. the exact type of people Wizards claimed they were trying to "protect" with said policy.  I just sent a letter to Mark Gottlieb, in fact, saying that and basically putting down in words how this fucks with why the game is unique.  If it weren't for unexpected interactions, this game would have no such thing as combo.  All in all, I just think it's pretty shitty.

[Phele]

I just can agree with almost all the things said before and I sent a letter to Mr. Gottlieb as well. If Wizards are not relieable anymore and we have to fear to see all our money cards being devalued, I think I have to quit Vintage as I seriously see the power cards as an investment I can recall whenever I want. I bought a Time Vault for around 60 Euro three months after the combo was realized and Flame Fusillade was out. Enought time to rise the price, thats for sure, but also enough time to see, if they would errata it or if it would dominate Legacy or Vintage. Neither happended so I thought I would be on the safe side. But the time was obviously not enought for Wizards. Bad Slops to them 

[Eddie]

I wonder if Andy is more upset about Brass Man or about Time Vault?

Anyway, besides the fact that I now have a Time Vault worth halve of what I payed for, I can now drop the testing of it. It was a horrendous choice between rebuild-tendrils and vault-fusillade in gifts for me. Now WotC has made the choice clear. If anyone needs a beta vault in vg condition, pm me

[Gabethebabe]

Happy that I don´t own any Vaults.

But yes, Wizards is a powerful company.
They print their own money and they´re capable of having it increase or decrease in value at their will. Scary.

[petergrifindor]

I´m very disappointed with Wizards. They couldn´t care less about Type 1, and the high investments that we have to do for playing THEIR GAME.

[Luc]

This is annoying as hell for reasons that have been mentioned. Letter to Mark Gottlieb sent!

[tark219]

Here is what I wrote to Mark Gottlieb:

"Integrity of the card"?  How about the integrity of the game?
Changing the errata on Time Vault 8 months after a particular usage
has become well established in Legacy and Vintage is shameful.  If you
wanted to restore the original intent, that should have been done at
the time of the restricted/banning announcements.  You blatently
permitted the market and the player base to assume that the combo was
considered fair and fine and have upended that expectation in a manner
worse than if you had just decided to restrict the card, since at
least restrictions occur at a particular point in time.

The existence of the combo is as "irrellevant" as the company's
no-reprint policy.  The combo and the no-reprint policy relate to the
integrity of the game as a collectible commodity.  Good job and
putting a huge dent in that reputation.  And this time, you'll not
only have pissed off the dealers, but a huge swath of players who
could  care less if you reprint power or not, but are going to be quite
irritated at this manuver, beginning with me.

ever think about running for president?

I was under the impression that Steve and a few other members of Meandeck weren't particularly fond of the attack step, and given our current affairs over in Iraq, I don't think that this is the optimal time for Meandeck to take over the capitol. It could be a public relations nightmare.

[Prometheon]

True, but I think the taxpayers would be excited about the new MeanDredge Reform. It would build voter confidance like crazy!

Also, on topic, this is insane. Vaults were really really expensive, and now they're going to nothing. I know this isn't really betraying collectors, but it IS betraying a much large section of their market. You know, those people who play the game?

[Mr. Nightmare]

I was under the impression that Steve and a few other members of Meandeck weren't particularly fond of the attack step, and given our current affairs over in Iraq, I don't think that this is the optimal time for Meandeck to take over the capitol. It could be a public relations nightmare.

I would totally do PR for them, just so I could literally be a Public Relations Nightmare.

[Moxlotus]

In the past hasn't Wizards announced rules changes when new editions (3rd, 5th, 6th) came out?   I'm curious as to why they decided to arbitrarily announce it on April 24th.

[ChemEng]

In the past hasn't Wizards announced rules changes when new editions (3rd, 5th, 6th) came out?   I'm curious as to why they decided to arbitrarily announce it on April 24th.

I was wondering the same thing... This errata hardly wants an emergency update to Oracle (by their own admission)...

[orgcandman]

Don't expect things to even off. I'm pretty sure that wizards is going to start nuking the eternal formats (they may feel that we've reached critical mass).

This is borderline fraud. Wizards knew that people had come to depend on the interaction between FF and TV, and they can very reasonably assume that people would make financial decisions based on this information. They definately screwed over a lot of people. I almost bought a Time Vault, but thankfully didn't after seeing this thread (literally, I can click over into the other window where it's in my checkout).

This is a really shitty thing to do. If I had email addresses for wotc employees, I'd send out a mass mail.

EDIT: One important thing to note is that the original wording didn't specify anything about the upkeep, or only using once per turn. The reasons for change are to nuke a combo in legacy that newer players won't be able to afford (especially since there won't be enough time vaults to go around if legacy really takes off). Maybe we're gonna start seeing vintage get screwed over by legacy more and more (kindof ironic

[Smmenen]

If you want to reach any wizards employee, and I hope that you do, here is what you do:

type in the firstname.lastname@wizards.com

Let 'em know what you think.

[Moxlotus]

Another thing-

Wizards makes changes that they think will have a positive effect on the game (whether they do is a matter of debate sometimes).  6th edition rules, B&R, card frames are some examples.  What possible positive effect can this have on the game as a whole?

[yespuhyren]

I really do think this sucks, as I like having cool combos out there to play against, especially ones that aren't THAT degenerate.  It makes me have to play that much better and adapt more, and thats the fun of the game.

On a sidenote, I've been trying to get 4 A/B vaults for a while, for casual, and then right when I was going to start picking up, Fusilade was printed, A/B vaults went up to infinity dollars, and I couldn't get any.

If anyone is willing to trade off A/B vaults at 30/40ish, LMK

[Burntgerbil]

who really said we have to play by their rules. I know If I ran type 1 tourneys I would say to my players " Yeahh... y'know that thing they did to time vault.. they really didn't.." What is wizards to do ? Stop sanctioning T1 events ? *snicker* The game is ours, guys - not theirs. If they do this to many more cards, a declaration of type one independence may need to be drafted. We are the ones who play the game, we should have the largest part in setting the rules.

[NWI Team_Zilla]

If you want to reach any wizards employee, and I hope that you do, here is what you do:

type in the firstname.lastname@wizards.com

Let 'em know what you think.

Or, like the geekz we are we can stalk them, hack their computers, and take pictures of them naked to blackmail them into our bidding.  But Wizards is a small fry in the corporate machine, we have to invade Canada and inslave the communists before we can blackmail wizards. 

Join the cause at http://invadecanada.us/.

p.s. No penguines, llamas, gimps, or brassmen were hurt during the writing of this statement.   

Verbal warning for spam.
-Jacob

[emidln]

who really said we have to play by their rules. I know If I ran type 1 tourneys I would say to my players " Yeahh... y'know that thing they did to time vault.. they really didn't.." What is wizards to do ? Stop sanctioning T1 events ? *snicker* The game is ours, guys - not theirs. If they do this to many more cards, a declaration of type one independence may need to be drafted. We are the ones who play the game, we should have the largest part in setting the rules.

This brings to mind why can't we just diverge from Vintage as a whole. Wizards doesn't seem to care about the format. Their upkeep is questionable, and all they really sponsor is the the Vintages Championships each year. Why not have TMD create a banned/restricted list and call it something like "Our Type 1"?

[TimeWizzle]

Didn't wizards do some sort of buyback deal when time spiral, etc. were banned in Urza-era type II?  maybe we can mail our vaults in to wizards for fat checks? 
Seriously, this was totally a bitch move that "rules cleaning up" aside, adds no value whatesoever to any format.  I don't think it is reasonable to ruin a card because the rules can be messy.  That is why it is so hard to level up as a DCI judge - they have to know rules inside and out.  I am fairly certain that al;most all L2 judges and higher know about this card interaction and can rule on it correctly - so why the hell do we need to "fix" the rules on it? 
And as stated previously, this is funtionally a banning on the card as it will pretty much never be used again in any format.  But Wizard's official policy on bannings is stated that bannings are reserved for cards that seriously distort a format or environment.  Which format is that distorting exactly?  BM Gifts can just swap back to sev/belch no problem.  I don't follow legacy too closely, but i don't think it was running away with that format either.  They should have at least made this announcement when ravnica came out and saved a lot of people a lot of money.  This is indirectly a direct opposition to their reprint policy. 
Respecting the cards as an investment my ass. 
from the official reprint policy (sic in BOLD):
"Primary to the value of purchasing Magic cards is the concept that each card will maintain a reasonable value over time. Because we're sensitive to this issue and to the ramifications of nuking cards too soon or too often, we try to make decisions that won't negatively affect card collectability over time and that will enhance the value of cards you purchase.

To maintain your confidence in the Magic game as a collectible, we've created this Magic: The Gathering card nuking policy. "

Errata should not be used as an underhanded way to ban cards and destroy their value.
jerks.

[Disburden]

who really said we have to play by their rules. I know If I ran type 1 tourneys I would say to my players " Yeahh... y'know that thing they did to time vault.. they really didn't.." What is wizards to do ? Stop sanctioning T1 events ? *snicker* The game is ours, guys - not theirs. If they do this to many more cards, a declaration of type one independence may need to be drafted. We are the ones who play the game, we should have the largest part in setting the rules.

This brings to mind why can't we just diverge from Vintage as a whole. Wizards doesn't seem to care about the format. Their upkeep is questionable, and all they really sponsor is the the Vintages Championships each year. Why not have TMD create a banned/restricted list and call it something like "Our Type 1"?

Then we could just play casual, couldn't we?

[Dralock]

Thanks Wizards, my investment in a mint Vault two years ago was finally going to pay off. Yeah, that doesn't seem like much compared to other people on this forum with "crimped" A/B vaults. But it means a lot to a player like me who can only scrape $100 for the game every few months.

http://search.ebay.com/mtg-time-vault_W0QQfkrZ1QQfromZR8

Exactly how far do I have to bend over to play this game?

[Smmenen]

who really said we have to play by their rules. I know If I ran type 1 tourneys I would say to my players " Yeahh... y'know that thing they did to time vault.. they really didn't.." What is wizards to do ? Stop sanctioning T1 events ? *snicker* The game is ours, guys - not theirs. If they do this to many more cards, a declaration of type one independence may need to be drafted. We are the ones who play the game, we should have the largest part in setting the rules.

This brings to mind why can't we just diverge from Vintage as a whole. Wizards doesn't seem to care about the format. Their upkeep is questionable, and all they really sponsor is the the Vintages Championships each year. Why not have TMD create a banned/restricted list and call it something like "Our Type 1"?

Because I don't trust anyone here other than myself to appropriately craft a restricted list. 

[Klep]

Because I don't trust anyone here other than myself to appropriately craft a restricted list. 

And a good half the format doesn't trust Steve to do it either. 

[Burntgerbil]

Then we could just play casual, couldn't we?

Well with Type one not being sanctioned and most of the tournaments I have played in without so much as even a designated judge - that is, in a sense what we are doing.
Quote Fixed. -Klep

[MoxMonkey]

Because I don't trust anyone here other than myself to appropriately craft a restricted list. 

And a good half the format doesn't trust Steve to do it either. 

We could always hire a Penguin to make a list for us.