[Deck] Tooth and Nail for Vintage

[magus888]

I believe I've come up with a deck concept that is plausible. It incorporates Tooth and Nail, Sky Hussar, and Kiki-Jiki to create infinite “hasted� creature tokens. It is a pretty mana intensive combo, but artifact mana and Drains speed up the deck enough to possibly be playable.

Here’s the list I’m currently working with. It goldfishes pretty quickly.

1sky hussar
1kiki-jiki, mirror breaker
1darksteel colossus

3tooth and nail
1time walk
1tinker

4brainstorm
4force of will
4mana drain
2misdirection
4thirst for Knowledge
1ancestral recall
1mystical tutor
2echoing truth

4chalice of the void
1lotus
5moxen
1petal
1crypt
1sol ring
1vault

1academy
4tropical island
3strand
3delta
4island
1strip


Tinker Colossus- Secondary win condition that fits with all the artifacts. Colossus also helps if something happens to Kiki/Hussar. Kiki-Jiki and Colossus are pretty good together.

Chalice- Great for mana disruption, but I usually set it at 1. Setting Chalice at 1 gets rid of pesky cards like StP and Chain of Vapor, and can demolish tendrils combo.

Misdiretion- Protects the combo from counter spells for free.

6 Fetch Lands- GG doesn't come easy.



The deck is very similar to ICBM Oath, but there are three reasons why I think this could be better.

1. Kiki/Hussar are not dead cards in hand like Akroma/Razia. T&N lets you play them from hand.

2. Oath takes at best 2 turns to win. This leaves it very vulnerable.

3. Not as drastic as the last two, but Unlike Oath if Druids, T&N could never be chaliced.




What do you guys think about the deck?

[49 Cents]

Why would you ever have a 7(/9) mana sorcery in your deck, if Oath of Druids only costs 2?

[policehq]

Why would you ever have a 7(/9) mana sorcery in your deck, if Oath of Druids only costs 2?

Even Defense of the Heart gets what he wants accomplished, though he have to have some similar hand manipulation as Oath with the topdeck Akroma/Razia.

-hq

[Smmenen]

How do you resolve Tooth and Nail?

[sa17dk]

See, my question for you is:

Why would you try to get infinite hasted tokens when you can just drop Oath turn 1 and win by turn 3? When stax is denying you mana, its hard enough casting Gifts. How are you possibly going to get 7 mana (two of it being GG) in a reasonable amount of turns?

[magus888]

How do you resolve Tooth and Nail?

Are you asking a serious question?

[sa17dk]

How do you resolve Tooth and Nail?

Are you being serious?

Yes, because I'm actually wondering the same thing.

[Hillboy]

So what turn does this combo off?

[magus888]

How do you resolve Tooth and Nail?

Are you being serious?

No, because I'm actually wondering the same thing.

I've playtesed against Gifts and Oath (with competent pilots) and it's usually online turn 5. I won 2/5 of the matches. I know that's not that great, but I was hoping you guys had some insight to improve the deck.



If KiKi/Hussar doesn't work in this deck, I was wondering if it could find a home in Oath.

[Smmenen]

How do you resolve Tooth and Nail?

Are you asking a serious question?

Yes.  Tooth and Nail costs 9 mana to win with.

Yawgmoth's Bargain and Mind's Desire are the most expensive spells in Vintage that you actually cast and they are often a bitch to resolve.

How do you resolve Tooth and Nail - how do you get enough mana and how do you protect it?

[49 Cents]

If a Tooth gets Drained, and Drains are very much being played, you simply lose. Draining a Gifts wins the game, and T&N costs TWICE as much. Also, you simply can't afford to play only 16 lands. Staxx is allready slaughtering you with Sphere of Resistance and Tangle Wire. And Null Rod. Or Cap, etc.. And shouldn't you play Boseiju if you, after all, want to continue to play Tooth and Nail?

[magus888]

And shouldn't you play Boseiju if you, after all, want to continue to play Tooth and Nail?

The thought had crossed my mind, but it screws with the mana base.

[nietzsche]

Tooth and Nail isn't fast enough in extended, what makes you think it is fast enough for vintage?

Yawgmoth's Bargain and Mind's Desire are the most expensive spells in Vintage that you actually cast and they are often a bitch to resolve.

And you don't even get the instant win capability resolving either of those cards has: you can't win until your next turn and that assumes your opponent doesn't have anything to say about a 2/2 and a 1/1.

you simply can't afford to play only 16 lands

Especially when 6 of those are fetches, and only the academy provides more than one mana.

[magus888]

Tooth and Nail isn't fast enough in extended, what makes you think it is fast enough for vintage?

Yawgmoth's Bargain and Mind's Desire are the most expensive spells in Vintage that you actually cast and they are often a bitch to resolve.

And you don't even get the instant win capability resolving either of those cards has: you can't win until your next turn and that assumes your opponent doesn't have anything to say about a 2/2 and a 1/1.

you simply can't afford to play only 16 lands

Especially when 6 of those are fetches, and only the academy provides more than one mana.

If T&N resovles, you win that turn. What are you talking about? What 2/2 and 1/1?

[Hillboy]

I'd like to say otherwise but it looks just too slow. Other decks, say dragon, can go off muxh faster than turn 5 and with spells that don't get drained for 7 mana.

Plus I think stifle can stop entwine but I'm not sure.

[nietzsche]

What 2/2 and 1/1?

Sorry, i confused the hussar with another card from an older combo.

But your opponant can still simply fire the kikki with his tap  on the satack and you net nothing more then a 3/4 haste sac at end of turn.  The "combo" is jsut to fragile, and FAR to expensive to be competative.

[Smmenen]

Tooth and Nail isn't fast enough in extended, what makes you think it is fast enough for vintage?

Yawgmoth's Bargain and Mind's Desire are the most expensive spells in Vintage that you actually cast and they are often a bitch to resolve.

And you don't even get the instant win capability resolving either of those cards has: you can't win until your next turn and that assumes your opponent doesn't have anything to say about a 2/2 and a 1/1.

you simply can't afford to play only 16 lands

Especially when 6 of those are fetches, and only the academy provides more than one mana.

If T&N resovles, you win that turn. What are you talking about? What 2/2 and 1/1?

Yes, but that stilll doesn't answer my question about how you resolve it or even cast it in the first place.  It costs 9 mana!  Two less mana than DSC!!!

[magus888]

Tooth and Nail isn't fast enough in extended, what makes you think it is fast enough for vintage?

Yawgmoth's Bargain and Mind's Desire are the most expensive spells in Vintage that you actually cast and they are often a bitch to resolve.

And you don't even get the instant win capability resolving either of those cards has: you can't win until your next turn and that assumes your opponent doesn't have anything to say about a 2/2 and a 1/1.

you simply can't afford to play only 16 lands

Especially when 6 of those are fetches, and only the academy provides more than one mana.

If T&N resovles, you win that turn. What are you talking about? What 2/2 and 1/1?

Yes, but that stilll doesn't answer my question about how you resolve it or even cast it in the first place.  It costs 9 mana!  Two less mana than DSC!!!

I cast it off Drain and artifact mana. Is there something drastically wrong with that?

[yespuhyren]

IF you manage to cast this, you will be tapped out.  I'm sure.  Then your opponent can have any combination of Forces/Drains/Leaks/Remands, etc.  You really think you will have enough forces in hand to stop two?

[magus888]

I'm starting to think this creature combo has a better place in Oath. 

[Vegeta2711]

C'mon guys, stop feeding the troll. He isn't even running the sekrit Boseiju tek, clearly this is just a fake deck to make us question the viability of 9 mana sorceries in Vintage.

[magus888]

C'mon guys, stop feeding the troll. He isn't even running the sekrit Boseiju tek, clearly this is just a fake deck to make us question the viability of 9 mana sorceries in Vintage.

 

[yespuhyren]

C'mon guys, stop feeding the troll. He isn't even running the sekrit Boseiju tek, clearly this is just a fake deck to make us question the viability of 9 mana sorceries in Vintage.

Magus = OWNED! 

[Methuselahn]

I was just wondering what why Tooth and Nail was better than Goblin Welder in your Thirst for Knowledge deck.

[LotusHead]

C'mon guys, stop feeding the troll. He isn't even running the sekrit Boseiju tek, clearly this is just a fake deck to make us question the viability of 9 mana sorceries in Vintage.

 

Don't take it too hard.  I had a hard time convincing people that 3W for Salvagers was acceptable for a vintage deck.

An original deck idea is always appreciated (even CoreTapper.dec), but you need to give us more to go on, card by card.  Even a sentence or two.

I had to look up Sky Hussar to verify what card it was.

As far as creatures that break Kikki-Jikki, is Sky Hussar the first creature with "When [this] comes into play, untap target Kikki-Jikki"?

We all have a hard time holding out for Tooth and Nail with or without entwine.

[magus888]

C'mon guys, stop feeding the troll. He isn't even running the sekrit Boseiju tek, clearly this is just a fake deck to make us question the viability of 9 mana sorceries in Vintage.

 

Don't take it too hard.  I had a hard time convincing people that 3W for Salvagers was acceptable for a vintage deck.

An original deck idea is always appreciated (even CoreTapper.dec), but you need to give us more to go on, card by card.  Even a sentence or two.

I had to look up Sky Hussar to verify what card it was.

As far as creatures that break Kikki-Jikki, is Sky Hussar the first creature with "When [this] comes into play, untap target Kikki-Jikki"?

We all have a hard time holding out for Tooth and Nail with or without entwine.

I just want to find a way to break T&N. This is the only format in which I can do so.

[nietzsche]

You would be better off trying to break it in extended where you have slower opponants, and no mindslaver/moxen/lotus/moxen/manadrain/moxen/mendenian/moxen/good players/moxen.  Oh!  And in extended you don't have moxen, so that might be good.

[Hillboy]

You would be better off trying to break it in extended where you have slower opponants, and no mindslaver/moxen/lotus/moxen/manadrain/moxen/mendenian/moxen/good players/moxen.  Oh!  And in extended you don't have moxen, so that might be good.

Isn't chrome mox legal in extended?

If not then oops :shock:

In all seriousness though this might work in type 1.5 where aggro is dominant, just need to combo off before they kill you.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Actually, the Extended TnN deck is the one that abuses Mindslaver.

[Disburden]

I understand where you're coming from, Magus. You want to break open a new deck in a format where innovation is very, very tough indeed. But you have to consider what everyone says.

No one uses artifact mana, lands and drain mana to cast 9cc spells in Vintage. There has to be a more broken way to get the spell to resolve that just tapping your lands and moxen.

Also If you want to prove everyone wrong the best thing to do is test 100 games each against all the top decks in the format and prove your results were good enough for your new deck, at least to be viable. I haven't seen that and either has anyone else, that is why everyone questions your deck.

I could say I would rather Tinker, sacc a Mana Crypt and deck DSC than play Tooth And Nail, but that doesn't matter. My point is, you need to prove yourself and your new deck for Vintage players to consider it playable for themselves. Just posting a list and a few sentences isn't going to acheive that as well.