[Deck] Grim Long - 3 Top8s at SCG Rochester

[Smmenen]

here is my latest version of Grim Long.  I don't know when the decklists will go up, so I'll just post it here now.   Changes are bold.

Grim Long, By Stephen Menendian

TEH MANAS
4 City Of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

TEH COMBO
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will

TEH TUTORS
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Grim Tutor

TEH PROTECTIONS
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Duress

TEH DRAW7S
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Memory Jar

TEH NUTZORS
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
1 Ancestral Recall

MISC. GOOD SHIT
4 Brainstorm
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk

Sideboard:
TEH ALTERNATE WIN CONDITION
1 Darksteel Colossus

ANTI-DRAINS
3 Xantid Swarm

ANTI-SHOPS
2 Elvish Spirit Guides
2 Hurkyl’s Recall

MISC GOODNESS
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Force of Will

Two players made top 8 with Grim Long on day one of Rochester, one got to the finals and lost cause he had hilariously bad hands and his opp. had triple fow in one game. 

I made top 4 day two with it.  It's really solid.

Why FoW?  You SB them in in almost every relevant match: Slaver, Fish, Stax, IT etc.  They are simply amazing. 

Paul Mastriano convinced me that the Chain of Vapor should be over Hurkyl's in the maindeck.  He was right.  It won me game one against Rich Shay (at least it made it easier).  Esp. in this metagame.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Force of Will is also listed as a SB option for the repeal combo deck.  If this card is so instrumental against relevant matchups, why not maindeck?  Is it simply because the cards worth stopping don't come in until post board?  Also, what are the cards you usually Force (Cap, Lab, Chalice)?

I can understand Chain of Vapors being a great maindeck selection, but post board I would think chalice for 1 would be enough of a threat to warrant more than just 2x hurkyls.  Wouldn't the SB CoVs be better served as meltdown, echoing truth or something else?

Edit: I also just noticed that the deck is entirely UB with the exception of Wheel, Regrowth, ESG's and Xantid.  Can you talk in a little detail about how these cards compare to a more stable manabase?

Btw, 'gratz on the finish day 2.

[Smmenen]

Repeal combo deck?  You mean, Meandeck Tendrils?

Paul M and I tested IT versus Grim Long in April and found that IT wins when it was on the play.  This led to alot of experimentation.

I thought of FOrce of Will as a solution, and it stuck.  We tried it and it was amazing.  Part of its amazing ness though was its surprise value.  I'm not sure if it will be as good.  Second, it's highly matchup dependent.  You bring it in against certain cards: like Ugo Rivard's Blood Moons.  I brought FoW against Shay, but I don't know if that is correct.  It is build dependent. 

Chain was a metagame call in a field where there was not going to be much stax but plent of Rods and Chalice 0.  Alot of what I ran was a metagame call, but Chain was amazing all day.  That's why I wanted access to 4. 

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

What made you decide to cut crop rotation from the list?  Also, what decks do you usually side the colossus against?

[Smmenen]

I have never played Crop Rotation in Grim Long.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I have never played Crop Rotation in Grim Long.

From "Grim Long and the Impact of Portal on Vintage"

Therefore, here is what I propose as a solid starting point and what I built last year:

Grim Long
By Stephen Menendian
The Combo:
4 Grim Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Tendrils of Agony

The Draw7s:
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister

The Truly Broken Cards:
1 Necropotence
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Tutors:
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Crop Rotation

Finding the combo
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Brainstorm

Protecting the Combo
4 Duress
2 Defense Grid
1 Chain of Vapor/Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild, etc

The Mana:
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Vault
1 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Rituals
2 Elvish Spirit
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid
1 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

Well there is the decklist for October 20th, 2005.

Granted, this list is really old, but it did originally have rotation in it.  I'm just wondering why newer lists don't run it, because it seems like it would be good as acadamy #2, since you are already running green with ESGs and a mostly 5 colour mana base anyways.

[BreathWeapon]

I'd like to discuss a number of those card choices,

If Stax isn't present in the metagame wouldn't 4 MD Xantid Swarms and 2 MD bounce be superior to Duress? Duress just isn't as good as it used to be against Fish, it doesn't remove Kataki or Chalice, if you aren't on the play.

Are the ESGs better mana acceleration than a full set of Cabal Rituals? You trade faster D7's for faster Grims, Potence and Bargain, and the accelerant is ridiculous once the deck reaches threshold.

I don't see the point in the Underground Seas, it's rare to have a problem with Gemstone and Orchard, because if you reach that point against Control or Fish you've arguably already lost.

I'm not a fan of Time Walk, especially if its replacing Crop Rotation.

[Smmenen]

I'd like to discuss a number of those card choices,

If Stax isn't present in the metagame wouldn't 4 MD Xantid Swarms and 2 MD bounce be superior to Duress? Duress just isn't as good as it used to be against Fish, it doesn't remove Kataki or Chalice, if you aren't on the play.

Are the ESGs better mana acceleration than a full set of Cabal Rituals? You trade faster D7's for faster Grims, Potence and Bargain, and the accelerant is ridiculous once the deck reaches threshold.

I don't see the point in the Underground Seas, it's rare to have a problem with Gemstone and Orchard, because if you reach that point against Control or Fish you've arguably already lost.

I'm not a fan of Time Walk, especially if its replacing Crop Rotation.

This is going to sound like a cop out, but this list has worked for me, and I see the logic behind it, but I cannot say that it is objectively correct.  Different lists may work for different people because of a number of variables, specifically, past experience, play style, and metagame differences.  I think that not running Time Walk is barney and that the Seas are fantastic, but that's me.

A number of people run Burning Wish, including Randy Buehler.  So, there you have it.

I've done well with my list so I obviously recommend my card choices.  But you may have a different viewpoint, and I can only suggest the pros and cons of various choices. 

[TopSecret]

     Has anyone else found Mana Vault to be underwhelming in combo?
I know it is usually considered a staple, especially in fast combo.
However, I find it to be a bad Dark Ritual a lot of the time; taking colored mana (usually) to add colorless.
Is it considered to be a must have in the deck, or could it be something else?

[BreathWeapon]

I can see your point, as most Combo players tend to differ in their assesments of deck lists and play styles more than Control players etc.

One of the more interesting suggestions made to me was including Balance in the MD with the 7-8 tutors, not certain I agree with it, but I could think of situations where it would be awesome against decks like Fish.

[Implacable]

     Has anyone else found Mana Vault to be underwhelming in combo?
I know it is usually considered a staple, especially in fast combo.
However, I find it to be a bad Dark Ritual a lot of the time; taking colored mana (usually) to add colorless.
Is it considered to be a must have in the deck, or could it be something else?

It gets you your Desire, Bargain, Will, and Draw-7's.  That's all that I want from it.

[Smmenen]

     Has anyone else found Mana Vault to be underwhelming in combo?
I know it is usually considered a staple, especially in fast combo.
However, I find it to be a bad Dark Ritual a lot of the time; taking colored mana (usually) to add colorless.
Is it considered to be a must have in the deck, or could it be something else?

I'm honestly flabbergasted that you suggested this. 

[Moxlotus]

In Balls to the Wall combo, I think it is a must.  In slower combo decks it isn't necessarily an auto include.  We've cut it in IT, but would never cut it in a Long.

[Tin_Mox5831]

My Random Grim Long Opinions:
(Based on rousing conversation en route to Rochester and some personal scrubbery at said tourney)

A) Crop Rotation for Academy is handy in conjunction with Mind's Desire, as the UU in it's cost is easy to telegraph otherwise. This makes Lotus a fragile card to play versus countermagic if you make it too obvious. Rotation helps Mind's Desire out as much as any card ever used in the deck.

B) Time Walk is not cuttable. I did it Sunday, and while it was okay, the reward was not worth the risk. Time Walk is literally cheating. As it's been said before, Time Walk essentially allows 59 card decks. It's also the stone cold nuts with Necropotence, Draw-7's, DSC post-board, etc.

C) Cutting Mana Vault, FTL. Honestly, it nets +2 mana and a storm. Why would I cut that? There are lots of situations where Vault plays a huge role. Paying BBB for Will rather than 2B or BBBUUU for Desire instead of 4UU really sucks more often than not. The colorless sources are what allow the busted turns by conserving precious colored mana. (If this is taken as an attack, I apologize in advance, but Mana Vault is amazing.  )

D) Duress is sooo good here. It plays off any spare Ritual mana and clears the path better than any other maindeck option. It's also almost universally useful. If Duress is a dead card, you're in a match you should win anyway. Xantid Swarm, while also amazing, is dead far more often.

E) Underground Sea is the best long-term land in the deck. (Except Academy, I suppose.) With Sea out, you can soften the opponent up with Duress, play tutors, combo out, etc. without consequence. One of my favorite hands to keep is U. Sea + multiple Duress. It's a tad slower than normal, but your path should be sufficiently clear once you find a bomb.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Later,
Dave

[Spartacus210]

I'm just starting to pick up the deck recently, and so far I've been really impressed with it. It's definitely how I like my decks, always on the offensive. Just a bit of a mental exercise to play.

Regardless, I had a few questions. I was talking an ex-combo player and he was questioning the inclusion of 3 card disadvantage tutors (Mystical, Vamp and Seal). At first I just thought that this allows more redundancy (which equals more power) but it got me thinking. Is Seal overkill? Mystical and Vamp are fine (Insant, play it during EOT/upkeep) but Sorcery speed I could see really hindering it.

Is it's inclusion worth it?

And on Crop Rotation: its manafixing aspect is relatively moot in this deck (lots of 5c lands) but its benefit of fetching out Academy or getting rid of a useless Mine. That, and makes Desire easier to cast, which I heard through a secret source is a pretty good card.

[LordHomerCat]

I also LOVE underground sea.  As soon as I find a single City/Gemstone Mine/Ruby/Emerald, I only want to draw Academy and Underground for lands.  Its free, painless, and doesn't run out.  Forbidden Orchard is by far my least favorite land, and I wish there was something better to play, but 4 gemstones is really risky since you don't always win on your first turn, and if its your only land and runs out, you're in deep trouble.  Mana Vault is amazing, Crop Rotation I haven't tried but it only seems like Desire would be worth playing it for, otherwise it doesn't seem good enough to cut anything.  I played with Burning Wish for Time Walk both days, and honestly I never saw Wish until top 8, and never once in the Swiss did I find myself wanting to draw or tutor for it, while a number of times, I wanted to be able to get Walk but couldn't.  However, the #1 reason I ran the wish was for a second win maindeck, in case of people playing Fish with MD Extract, or Hide/Seek, or having Tendrils in my Jar hand, or getting my Tendrils crypted away after a duress or something.  I was not 100% comfortable with only having 1 win condition in the deck, so Walk was the 60th card and got cut for Wish.  If I could find a slot, I would put Walk back, but I just don't know what I'd cut for it.  The other main use for Wish was a (second) maindeck out to Meddling Mages and True Believers, in the form of Balance.  I expected a solid number of fish decks, given how big Slaver has been lately, and so I ran Chain over Hurkyl's (which was INSANE) and Wish -> Balance so I could win through them.

As a side note, the only sorceries I even ran in the board were a Tendrils and a Balance.  I've tested some since, and wish I could run a draw spells so burning wish isn't trash against Slaver/Gifts, but Diminishing Returns and Time Spiral are both awful so I don't know what else would be worth it.

On Duress:  Pre-board, it is really nice to cast off rituals and stuff like that, and its insane off Draw-7's and such.  Post Board, especially on the draw, I found myself siding out all or all but one for Forces and Xantids against control decks.  Turn 1 Xantid against slaver is approximately 800 times better than turn1 duress, and the only reason I ever wanted to see duress over swarm was when I went into a Draw7 without covering them in bees first.  I settled (by the end of the day) on cutting all but one duress, so that if I had a juicy draw7 hand but not a ton of action, I could tutor for it before winning (this happened more than once, and once I found Burning Wish-> duress, which was a big pain).  If I was playing nothing but Slaver and Gifts, I would consider running 2-3 Swarms over a couple duress, but Swarm is such trash against non-drain decks that its hard to justify main (drawing one green creatures against shops is a good way to lose).

Seal is not terrific, and Card Dis + Sorcery are a pain in the ass, but it also gets Black Lotus and Yawg Will for you.  Tutoring for insane cards is quite good, even if its slow.  Its a good setup spell, to get you Mana or Protection or Another Bomb for your big turn.


Edit: Take anything involving sideboarding with a grain of salt, as I really didn't have a clue what I was doing and sided horribly on more than one occasion.  That part could be completely insane, so, uh, ya, don't put too much faith in my plans.

[Mr. Nightmare]

Just a couple things:

I also ran Burning Wish over Walk day 2, with Walk, Balance, Shatterring Spree, Tendrils as my wishboard.  The entire day, I wished for Tendrils every time but 1.  That 1 time, I wished for a sided out Wheel of Fortune which won me the game, but could have been the Wish and it still would have won it.  I honestly am not sure.  I think at home I keep Wish in, because Extract shouldn't win the game.

Xantid Swarm was the stone nuts all day long.  I wanted him more than Force or Duress.  Covering your opponent in bees is like an auto win with this deck.

Seal is too good not to play.  Even with card disadvantage, it gets you anything, and there are a million ways to get that card in your hand this turn. 

[Mr. Type 4]

Mana Vault is not only amazing, it's essential.  If you don't know why, then it is likely that you are missing critical plays, or just haven't played enough games against an actual opponent.  I'll give you a hint, though, it's casting cost is 1 and it produces 3 manas.  Mana Vault is actually a go-to card when things get rough in there.

I've thought of trying to cut colors many times, even just to be able to push extra power out of Brainstorm, but the off color cards are extremely compelling, especially Wheel, which has been an all-star for me.   The suicidal mana base is difficult to manage, but with great power comes great responsibility.   

[Evenpence]

Mana Vault is not only amazing, it's essential.  If you don't know why, then it is likely that you are missing critical plays, or just haven't played enough games against an actual opponent.  I'll give you a hint, though, it's casting cost is 1 and it produces 3 manas.  Mana Vault is actually a go-to card when things get rough in there.

I've thought of trying to cut colors many times, even just to be able to push extra power out of Brainstorm, but the off color cards are extremely compelling, especially Wheel, which has been an all-star for me.   The suicidal mana base is difficult to manage, but with great power comes great responsibility.   

I agree completely, Paul.

One off-color card that many people overlook is Regrowth.  Regrowth has been game-breaking every single time I see it.  The card is absurd.  It allows you to do so much it's retarded.  Mind's Desiring into Regrowth is one of the most unique broken plays Vintage has.

[Juggernaut GO]

Mind's Desiring into Regrowth is one of the most unique broken plays Vintage has.

I disagree, I think mind's desiring into: Tinker, sundering titan, mindslaver, mana crypt, mox sapphire, mox jet, goblin welder, time walk  is just so much better.

[zeus-online]

Mind's Desiring into Regrowth is one of the most unique broken plays Vintage has.

I disagree, I think mind's desiring into: Tinker, sundering titan, mindslaver, mana crypt, mox sapphire, mox jet, goblin welder, time walk  is just so much better.

Does that happen often for you?

/Zeus

[LordHomerCat]

Well, he does play desire in every deck he builds, including Shop aggro/combo, so I'd imagine so.

On a side note, I didn't get to use regrowth much, so I'm not sure what I think.  It definitely belongs, just because regrowing lotus or a countered Will is insane, but I think wheel and swarms are the main reasons to splash.

[ErkBek]

Mind's Desiring into Regrowth is one of the most unique broken plays Vintage has.

Coming up with 4UU again is even more unique. I'd much rather just flip the tendrils and get it over with. Your statement doesn't make a whole lot of sense, if I'm reading it correctly. Since this happens in extended with some regularity.

@ Steve's list: is 4 xantids too many post board vs. drains? I recall JD saying that you only want to have 3.

Lastly, Chain of Vapor is INSANE, that card is the reason to play storm combo......not the broken plays. I am kind of suprised that steve ran 4 post board though.

[Mr. Nightmare]

@ Steve's list: is 4 xantids too many post board vs. drains? I recall JD saying that you only want to have 3.

Xantid is soooo hot vs. Drains, and it comes down so quick.  I even like having multiples so they can't Darkblast before attackers are declared.  I think having access to 4 is critical in the Drain matchup.

[Tin_Mox5831]

Maybe Burning Wish itself should be in the board. That way, you can board out whatever sorcery is underperforming in that matchup, as well as adding another out versus Extract, etc. I am of the opinion that you should be running the best list you can in Game 1, then use the sideboard to smooth out potential problems. (Duh, but you see what I mean, I'm sure.) This plan would do that pretty well, IMO. You're not likely to see the problem cards until Game 2 anyway, so boarding in Wish seems like the best way to fix any problems as needed while still maintaining an objectively powerful list in Game 1.

[Mr. Type 4]

The only thing about SBing in B-Wish is that it's already so damn hard to figure out what cards to side out. 

Coming up with 4UU again is even more unique.

I think it's fairly reasonable to say that if you just resolved a desire and didn't flip Tendrils, that you probably gained access to a lot of Manas.  In any case, Regrowth is awesome as a go-to card in a situation where the card you really wanted to tutor for is in the yard, and is a nice way to get back cards that were countered.  It also can buffer your storm count, which is good.

[Tin_Mox5831]

The only thing about SBing in B-Wish is that it's already so damn hard to figure out what cards to side out.

That is true. I think a good default move to board in Wish could be -1 Duress, +1 Burning Wish. Lots of older lists only ran 3 Duress, so this seems to make at least a little sense. Great hanging with you this weekend, BTW. Steve has your Hurkyl's Recall, just so you know.

[Smmenen]

I didn't say this before Rochester because I didn't want to really promote grim long until I got another chance to win power with it, but I'm fairly convinced that it is hands down the best deck in the format.  The only real competition, in terms of being the best deck, is Slaver.  Slaver is the best performing deck, but Grim Long destroys it.  This weekend I got to pwn Rich Shay again.  This time, however, he got mainphases.  Game one I won on turn three and game two I won on turn one.  In addition, Grim Long has a chance against anyone and anything.  The real limitation is the pilot, not the deck.   Every single match I lost at Rochester was due to my own incompetence with the deck, not the deck itself. 

There is also the nifty fact that Grim Long will never be a problem in the format.  Two reasons: card limitation and skill limitations.  If you learn Grim Long, you'll never have to worry that much about hate since Grim Long will never be more than a small pecentage of the metagame.  Second, Grim Tutors are now well over $125. 

The question now is: what tweaks should be made to adjust for the upcoming metagame? 

To answer some questions that were raised: Duress is optimal in the main, but post board against most control decks now - you want the suite of 4 Xantid and 4 FoW.  You want the FoWs because good control decks will run some form of hate like Blood Moon or Arcane Lab.  Hence you want the FoWs to fight those. 

[rureddy31]

Hey. You probably don't remember me (I'm not good enough to be remembered), but I was part of Diceman's "crew". I watched your quarters and semi matches. I was on your right. Anyway, I was wondering if you might be able to give me a sideboard guide. Most of it is straightforward, but I just need to confirm some of my own choices if possible...

[Smmenen]

I remember you, it was nice to meet you. 

If you sb in FoWs, you generally sb out the four green cards.

However, against control, I tended to sb:

- 1 Windfall
- 2 ESG
- 1 Regrowth
- 4 Duress
+ 3 Xantids
+ 1 Hurkyl's
+ 4 FoWs