Does Grim Long lose to Leyline?

[Rock Lee]

there's a chain of vapor in there I know, and the xantids swarm all over my face...

Against a drain deck that runs Leyline of the Voidx4 and gets it out (assume mull to 4 max), how hard does the matchup for Grim Long become?

from what I knew, Grim Long just wins off yawg every time via nasty search and recursion. seems like Leyline would stomp its face similar to ichorid.

[Dominik]

Simply put, no. Grim Long does not need Yawgmoth's Will to win, even though it is very convenient to have it the turn you are going off (and makes games a lot more simple- hence the reason newer players cannot play grim long with as much success... they use will more as a crutch than just another one of the broken cards in the deck). Even Intuition Tendrils (which relies more on its graveyard than Grim Long) can easily win through Graveyard hate like Crypt and especially Leyline (because it could be bounced).

[Purple Hat]

Grim long WANTS to win off will, it's easier than everyother way it can win...and if you can get rid of the leyline that's cool, but it can also just win by powering out a bunch of draw spells/rits and tutoring up tendrils.

[Dominik]

Grim long WANTS to win off will, it's easier than everyother way it can win...and if you can get rid of the leyline that's cool, but it can also just win by powering out a bunch of draw spells/rits and tutoring up tendrils.

I didn't say that will isn't a good win condition, I just said that the only way a simple hate card like leyline of the void can really harm Storm Combo is if the player does not know how to play around it. I have seen lots of people put everything into playing their will, just to have it countered. Then they didn't have a clue how to win because they don't have enough experience with their deck. Besides, unlike a FoW, you know what you are up against when your opponent drops a leyline, and you can begin to make changes to your usual plays from the very beginning of the game.

A good way to practice with Grim Long is to pretend that the opponent also has a chalice or leyline out, and change around your gameplan to go around that 'pretend' hate. In this way, one will be prepared when the opponent gets the card out in an actual tournament.

[Disburden]

A good player with Grim Long will pretty much be able to get bounce if they need to. Grim Long is filled with tutors and Draw7s so there's pretty much always a way to get a bounce spell.

The latest Grim Long list from the past SCG had 4 Chain of Vapors (3 in the side) and 4 force of will in the sideboard. There was also these spells to find them:

4 Brainstorm
1 Wheel
1 Windfall
1 Memory Jar
3 Grim tutor
1 Demonic tutor
1 Vamp Tutor
1 Imperial seal
1 Necro
1 Bargain


That's a lot of tools to find bounce to go off. So my answer is; no not really.

[Purple Hat]

we're agreeing....we both made two points:

1)grim likes to cast will cus it's easier, and would like to get rid of leyline if it's convenient

2)grim can just ignore it and win the game anyway if the grim player has a clue.

[Kowal]

I can't tell you how many games I've lost because I overestimated Leyline's usefulness.

That is, I assumed it was relevant.  It almost never is.  It's crap.

Run some better dedicated hate.  I gave it a second opportunity to shine, and if I didn't I would have been undefeated at Rochester (it was occupying both my anti-combo slots and my anti-fish slots, which are the two matchups I lost to.  It was only relevant against Dragon which I had Tormod's maindeck for anyway)

[Moxlotus]

If you have moxen and a bounce spell, you don't need Will to win.  My team refers to it as the "TPS win."

[pyr0ma5ta]

Short answer: no.  Grim should not lose to Leyline.  I'm a mediocre Ritual player and I can win through Leyline all day long.

[herbig]

Yes, Grim Long loses to Leyline, and I believe everyone should maindeck four of them.

[Tin_Mox5831]

If a trained monkey is playing the Grim Long deck, maybe. Otherwise, Grim Long walks right over that garbage most of the time. All the hate in the world was at Rochester, but Grim Long just absolutely trumps all those shortcut cards. I know for a fact that all of the Grim Long players that were there managed to beat Chalice @ 0, Chalice @ 1, Null Rod, Leyline, etc. at different points in the tourney. The only way for such measures to work against Grim Long is to get 2 or more different ones down at once. Perhaps then the deck can be stopped, but not otherwise.

[Rock Lee]

Wow Droves of helpful responses and experience from the top heads! Thanks for the responses.

Given that I often designate 6 slots on the SB to combo, playing Slaver, is 4 Leyline not potent enough, as my remaining 2 spots will be too weak?

I've been testing Leylinex4 just to see how potent it is alone, and I agree, it requires a 2nd attack to be successful. I used to run 3x chalice, 2x, duress, 1x T crypt (with 1 MD), and once again, found them helpful, but only game winning in 2+ s.

I was thinking 2x duress but feel that as too weak and random in a 2 of, and would want to go upto at least 3, potentially 4. Drawing Duresses from Draw 7s as they're going off isn't going to win me anything.

It seems to me that the only instant speed answers that I would want are run in off colors, (Abeyance/orim's chant). Are there any storm killers that I am missing that work in U/R/B? or am I stuck with sorcery speed solutions. (would Shadow of Doubt be a feasible answer?)

[Purple Hat]

honestly?  probably the best board for grim long in 6 slots, which I think might be too many btw, is probably something like 3x chalice, 3x bloodmoon, pray you live long enough to drop both....they work synergystically vs grim long and both are good against other matchups.

[roberts91rom]

Um...No. First off Leyline is complete garbage. Any self-respecting GrimLong player will just bounce/playthrough/TPS you out of the game. I don't know why in the name of God you would EVER play Leyline in Slaver. Stifle, Duress, TCrypt, Chalice, Slaver, Drain, FoW, Mana Leak, Disrupt, Force Spike, Extract, Cranial Extraction, etc. are ALL better answers to combo than Leyline in a CS deck. Thats right, I would rather run Force Spike than Leyline because at least Force Spike can't be bounced, isn't expected and can stop anything I want it to not just Will. As to Shadow of Doubt. If you have 2 U/B MANA, WHY WOULD YOU RUN AN ANSWER TO A TUTOR? Mana leak can be played off any color +U and does more than Shadow of Doubt. BEST case scenario you are running a few more Time Walks. That is assuming the Grim player runs no draw-7s...or draw spells in general. Oh, and is an idiot. The Grim player also has to be an idiot.


@Purple Hat: Blood moon better be a joke. For the love of God it had better be a joke. You cut yourself out of black mana, stop your OWN FETCHES, and in turn screw yourself over. Your entire mana base is now mountains and a few Islands. By a few, I mean 3-4. All that for the low, low price of 3 mana. What do you get in return if you actually live to 3 mana.(Good Luck Buddy) You have a 1 and a half-hour long match against Grim Long thus drawing the game. Hurray. I'm gonna pack 6 of them in my Sideboard next time.

It only took this long to get a warning because I didn't notice this post before.  Warning issued.  There's a preview button so you can wash your posts clean of Tourette's before you click the post button, so use it.
-Kowal[/color]

[Harlequin]

I don't think anyone here really thinks that Leyline or any other card for that matter is an autoscoop for Grim long. 

If you don't count artifact bounce, doesn't Grim run more hand disruption (ei Duress) and spell disruption (xantid swarm) than it does bounce..... Esp now that they are potentially running repeal.  I'm not saying that repeal can't be used to bounce leyline but its alot more turns than say, turn 1 repeal targeting Tormods and/or Chalice for 0.  Also leyline is > any other Gy hate because of turn 1 duress.

I guess the real question should be: How many turns does Leyline Buy?
How does this compare to Turn 1 duress? Chalice? Tormods?  Is Leyline the best "bang for your buck" as compared to other possible sollutions when talking about buying turns?

[Purple Hat]

so....uh...some of the best slaver players including rich shay and ugo rivard have played bloodmoon in slaver in various metagames to success(shay and rivard won waterbury and rochester respectively while packing it)....I hope you don't mind if I take their opinion and some actual testing over your random "I don't know what I'm talking about but if I'm assertive and aggressive enough no one will challenge me" post do you?  also...what's with all the hostility?  did your mom not hug you enough?

[Moxlotus]

Discard like Duress or (if you already have your set of duress), Therapy or Hymn are great at buying you the time to drop a Blood Moon.

[herbig]

I lost to Blood Moon in the top 8 day one both games 2 and 3.  The card is scary and I wasn't really expecting it at all.  Once Blood Moon comes down the only cards Grim Long wants to see are Wheel, Lotus, Petal, Sapphire, and Jet.  From there you might actually be able to cast something.  Leyline on the other hand is terrible.  I won through it at least twice and never bounced it the whole day.  There really wouldn't have been a point wasting a tutor to bounce that trash.

[Kieranwolf]

I've found that in my few games against GrimLong, my Duresses and Cabal Therapies didn't matter that much unless I had a way to kill both Regrowth and Yawg Will.

I think it's also worth it to note that Leyline can make GrimLong's first turn win on the go harder. So I don't agree that Leyline is completely useless, but I do agree that graveyard removal can't be the only disruption you pack. If that wasn't obvious enough already.

Besides, what else are you going to have to try and hinder a first turn win on the go? FoW and Leyline are your only tools. What else comes online to help against combo before you even get a turn? Foil?

[LordHomerCat]

Leyline is hardly the be-all end-all, but it does often slow you down a turn or so, especially if your hand is set up for a quick Will win.  It makes you either find bounce or just go for Desire/Bargain/Multiple draw7's, all of which are slower than just ritual-tutor-will-win.  Its also got a HUGE advantage over most hate: it is always relevant.  You don't even need a mainphase, you can always drop it in time, unlike Tormod's or Blood Moon.  If its your only hate, you better be REALLY fast and have a lot of disruption.  If its just to slow Grim down long enough to play something more relevant like Blood Moon, it might be good enough.

[BreathWeapon]

I think the success of Leyline of the Void as a MD or SB hate card depends on the player's mulligan decisions more than the card itself, if the pilot mulligans into a hand with Leyline of the Void and no additional disruption or threats you will lose. That said, Leyline of the Void is the only turn 0 disruption card for a number of decks, and I've been very happy with the card in my SB of UbaStax as well as my MD of Ichorid and Cerebral Assassin.

In short, it is a unique and format defining card that can neither be over or under estimated.

[AJFirst]

I disagree. Leyline's pretty terrible, and if you're looking for combo board slots, 3-4 Arcane Lab and 1-2 Tormod's Crypt would be the best bet (in my opinion at least).
-AJ

[Rock Lee]

I didn't propose the Leyline OR shadow of doubt to be sufficient by themselves, only in conjuction.

The reason I suggested shadow of Doubt was an "as they combo out" option, assuming Leyline slows them down, Shadow of Doubt will cut out their Draw7-> search win.

Seemed logical to me. Although duresses might just be plain better.

[Purple Hat]

seriously dude....try bloodmoon, it's a house vs grim long.  it forces them to find wheel, petal, jet, sapphire or lotus to even play spells at all.  if they succed in finding one of those, it's still rough because if, for example, they find jet they're restricted to only casting black spells, if they find sapphire same thing except blue, if you manage to get a chalice down with your bloodmoon they're completely shut out of the game....if it didn't own CS so bad I'd suggest chains but unfortunately you play blue.

[BreathWeapon]

I disagree. Leyline's pretty terrible, and if you're looking for combo board slots, 3-4 Arcane Lab and 1-2 Tormod's Crypt would be the best bet (in my opinion at least).
-AJ

This is non sensible,

A deck that has access to Arcane Lab has access to Force of Will, making Leyline of the Void a moot point.

[Purple Hat]

This is non sensible,

A deck that has access to Arcane Lab has access to Force of Will, making Leyline of the Void a moot point.

what?  force of will and leyline of the void do entirely different things.  also force can get nabbed by duress, leyline can't.

for a grim long player lab=annoying, force =something you're designed to beat, leyline=something you don't care about at all...

[Guli]

So tell me what DOES beat the all mighty grim long? ... 

[BreathWeapon]

This is non sensible,

A deck that has access to Arcane Lab has access to Force of Will, making Leyline of the Void a moot point.

what?  force of will and leyline of the void do entirely different things.  also force can get nabbed by duress, leyline can't.

for a grim long player lab=annoying, force =something you're designed to beat, leyline=something you don't care about at all...

I argued the card was more useful for deck's with out Force of Will than with it, hence, I don't use the card outside of MD Ichorid or SB UbaStax. A deck with Force of Will can use the turn 0 counter wall to set up an Arcane Lab, Sphere of Resistance or Tormod's Crypt, so it makes more sense for them to use these cards than Leyline of the Void (unless it's something similar to U/w Fish, where 3cc for Lab is too slow and Rod stops Crypt).

[Purple Hat]

things that beat grim long:  play mistakes by the grim long pilot, bloodmoon, other combo that's able to stop grim long's opening salvo and then win the game, Stax is a reasonably hard matchup, anything that resolves chains of mephistopheles....that's most of it I think.

This is non sensible,

A deck that has access to Arcane Lab has access to Force of Will, making Leyline of the Void a moot point.

what?  force of will and leyline of the void do entirely different things.  also force can get nabbed by duress, leyline can't.

for a grim long player lab=annoying, force =something you're designed to beat, leyline=something you don't care about at all...

I argued the card was more useful for deck's with out Force of Will than with it, hence, I don't use the card outside of MD Ichorid or SB UbaStax. A deck with Force of Will can use the turn 0 counter wall to set up an Arcane Lab, Sphere of Resistance or Tormod's Crypt, so it makes more sense for them to use these cards than Leyline of the Void (unless it's something similar to U/w Fish, where 3cc for Lab is too slow and Rod stops Crypt).

they're completely different effects though....it may be that grim is able to play around Leyline easily but not Lab (as is the case) but could just as easily go the other way, also leyline stops them on turn one and can't be duressed, while lab likely does not.

[BreathWeapon]

Oath and Fish are booth good against Long, 12 to 16 disruption cards are nothing for a Long player to scoff at.