The Mountains Win Again

[Nastaboi]

Not if they target a permament, when you have to be able to misdirect it to another permament, as the spells are modal (they are nowadays worded "choose one - "). Pyroblast usually takes MD spot in Mountains because you can just feed Lavamancer or Grunt with it if opponent has no targets.

[Myriad Games]

Definitely Pyroblast in the main over REB for the pitchability to feed Lavamancer and/or Grunt and definitely not more than four in the main at present - even in a metagame infested by blue. So how many do you feel is ideal after sideboard?

[Myriad Games]

We had another double Mountains Top 8 yesterday, Sunday, December 10th at the Beanie Exchange tournament. Stay tuned for a full report including discussion of Pyroblast / REB mixes, Cabal Therapy, and super-secret tech against new Gifts builds.

[Myriad Games]

And here is the promised tournament report for the Double Top 8 from December 10th. Enjoy!

[Myriad Games]

Any thoughts on the play results from the Beanie Exchange tournament?

I've found that the Control and Combo matchups are vastly improved by the presence of Duress.

[wethepeople]

A while back someone proposed running Duress in TMWA builds, and this was the response:

Duress can help accomplish this, but duress is a hand attacking piece. TMWA doesn't focus on attacking that resource. It wants to answer on-board threats. It wants to answer those threats quickly. It wants to answer them efficiently.

Months later:

I've found that the Control and Combo matchups are vastly improved by the presence of Duress.

I also suggested running it in a RWb build that I put together, and once again, it was declined. But months later, you say it plays very well in your most recent build. I hate to say it, but I told you so. I have always been inclined to run Duress because it is just so powerful, regardless of what I was told here on TMD. I however am glad now that it is played, and I wish that it wasnt completely shut down when it was suggested multiple times back in August.

I enjoy seeing TMWA do so well at Vintage events, and I congradulate you, Dan, for your great success.

[Myriad Games]

And this is why continued feedback and suggestions are so important to continually improving the deck and adjusting for the metagame. I'll happily stand corrected by a solid suggestion that I failed to recognize before witnessing the testing results myself. Thank you again to everyone who makes comments and suggestions, no matter how radical they may seem at the time. I think that adding Duress to the main is primarily justifiable (and good) because of the current prevalence of Gifts / Control in the top tables. There's always some card that will serve a role in TMWA and that's the exciting part about developing the deck - it's not just 48 cards + 12 arguable slots. The evolution of the deck has been drastic and exciting and that's why I enjoy continuing the journey.

I'm putting together something of a retrospective in my tournament binder including one copy of each of the cards that were in previous versions of The Mountains Win Again and there are some pretty hilariously effective cards.

[wethepeople]

I enjoy seeing the deck change accordingly to the current Vintage meta. Whether its adding some nice new tech, or splashing an entirely new color. This seems to be the reason why it has been so conistent in tournament play. You are always one step ahead of the competition. (I think that was copyright infringement, it seems like a familiar headline...)

I just want you to know that my last post was not intended to be flaming any particular person, just to point out the lack of consideration to such a strong card that I personally feel should be tested when ever choosing to try black.

/wtp.

[Myriad Games]

Clarification understood. We naturally resist change, but considering such potent options is essential for adding those in. My primary objection to adding black originally was simple that adding too much of a third color destabilized the mana base unacceptably in the then-current environment. While we've found ways to re-stabilize the mana consistency after adding in the extra black, I still hold to that principle and think it needs to be carefully considered in order to pilot the Mountains effectively. The current metagame (in our area at least) contains fewer Wastelands since Stax has settled into a predictable percentage of the metagame and many fish builds eschewed Wastelands in favor of three-color mana bases.  In general, I try to strike a balance between the urge to try out crazy, wacky cards and the desire to keep things consistent.

[wethepeople]

Any plans with the release of Extirpate? The card is insane and it is bound to ruin just about everything.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31719.0

EDIT: Updated the name.

[Myriad Games]

Extirpate will at least be tested in The Mountains Win Again.

Also, Patrick Chapin posted a premium article on SCG (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13546.html) including a deck that may be closely related to TMWA. I wonder how close it is and what his thoughts are on the deck's development over the past year and a half.

[Myriad Games]

My latest tournament report chronicling TMD X has been posted here. Enjoy!

[Myriad Games]

My latest tournament report has been posted here. Enjoy!

As always, comments are welcome. Let's brainstorm ideas for the post-Planar Chaos metagame.

[wethepeople]

That Cabal Therapy tech that you've been using has been great for me. I am kind of dissapointed that I didn't think of that myself.

I am glad however that you chose to run two STP's main, rather than all four, because in my old lists, I always used two, three tops. Simply because I hated drawing them due to the fact that they only served a purpose versus Fish, which wasn't even a common deck for me to face.

How are four Grunts and Lavamancers doing for you?

[Myriad Games]

The Grunts and Lavamancers work fine in that the Grunts are an excellent clock and the Lavamancers just destroy anything creature based. I haven't had any major issues with them conflicting with each other though it does take some practice to know what to put back with Grunt to make the most effective use of his drawback.

[wethepeople]

What exactly did you cut to make room for the last two Lavamen and Therapies?

One more thing, have you use Extirpate at all yet? I have used it a tiny bit, but not enough to say whether or not it's good, but I can atleast tell you that it is being overly-hyped.

[Myriad Games]

A while back we replaced 2x Kris Mage with 2x Lavamancer in the main. Two tutor slots (Pillar and Seal of Cleansing) were replaced by the two additional Therapies. I've been happy with the changes so far.

Extirpate is indeed overhyped, but testing should show how effective it can be.

[NWI Team_Zilla]

Hi all,

I have been seeing 4 Goblin Welders in some of the lists I have looked at.  Is it really that good?  The only thing I can think of it being amazing against is stax and the ever present colossus, but isn't Hide/Seek just better, especially in the list that are splashing black which enables Seek to be played?

Thanks a lot,
NWI

[nataz]

The welders, as far as I know, were pre hide/seek. I never loved them, but Dan used to swear by them (he reaaaaaly hates stax apparently ;p). They were also an answer to the big DSC, as well as random 7/10's. You would be surprised by how many decks were SB'ing in big artifact doods against tempo decks, and welder shut that off as an alt. win condition. This is certainly less so now that UW fish is more popular (i.e., more maindeck STP), and ETW has been printed. 

[Myriad Games]

Goblin Welder has been replaced by Hide / Seek. He is still an option for heavy Stax metagames and/or mono red lists. He is significantly less potent now that Darksteel Colossus has been replaced by 104 Goblin tokens!

[OfficeShredder]

Apparently TMWA took 12th at waterbury on day two

Decklist here

The deck is very similiar to what you had in your latest tourney report, but eschewed the half of the therapies and the pyroblast for a pithing needle and a full set of StP.

[keys]

Has Burning Wish been tested in TMWA?  You could replace the single maindeck Pyroblast in Dan's current deck list with Wish, giving you access to the SB Shattering Sprees, Slice and Dice, and Volcanic Spray.  It can also grab flashbacked Therapies.  I think this would be helpful in the Stax and Gifts matchups game 1, and it's easy to SB out games 2 & 3.  Of course, then you have 4 tutors maindeck, which might be overkill.  Another option is to replace Demonic Tutor with Wish.

It just looks like a nice idea since you already have a few powerful wish targets in your sideboard.  Making use of them game 1 could be very advantageous.

[wethepeople]

Has Burning Wish been tested in TMWA?  You could replace the single maindeck Pyroblast in Dan's current deck list with Wish, giving you access to the SB Shattering Sprees, Slice and Dice, and Volcanic Spray.  It can also grab flashbacked Therapies.  I think this would be helpful in the Stax and Gifts matchups game 1, and it's easy to SB out games 2 & 3.  Of course, then you have 4 tutors maindeck, which might be overkill.  Another option is to replace Demonic Tutor with Wish.

It just looks like a nice idea since you already have a few powerful wish targets in your sideboard.  Making use of them game 1 could be very advantageous.

Why would you want to cut Demonic Tutor, a spell costing the same amount that gives you acess to any card in your entire deck, for a weak Personal Tutor that takes up slots in TMWA's sideboard? The fifteen slots are already packed as it is..

I have used Welder as a four of, but I didnt like it that much. Obviously it is even weaker now with a decreas in Stax appearances and ETW>DSC in Gifts, but even then, it didn't impress me.
---
Just wondering, Dan, have you ever tried other colors rather than Black, or even White? For some reason, this crossed my mind the other day. Now, I am not proposing running a different color, it is just something I have never heard any discussion about.

[keys]

Why would you want to cut Demonic Tutor, a spell costing the same amount that gives you acess to any card in your entire deck, for a weak Personal Tutor that takes up slots in TMWA's sideboard? The fifteen slots are already packed as it is..

I didn't say the sideboard should change.  Shattering Spree, Slice and Dice, and Volcanic Spray are already great targets.  Yes, I know the explicit differences between Demonic Tutor and Burning Wish.  Clearly, some combination of Vamp, Enlightened, and Demonic are needed to Tutor up the maindeck toolbox.  I only cited replacing Demonic and one of several different options available for including Burning Wish.  In fact, I thought replacing the single Pyroblast might be stronger.

There's no need to be hasty.

[wethepeople]

There's no need to be hasty.

Not in any way was I trying to be "hasty", I am just struggling to find the logic in why you would cut Demonic Tutor for Burning Wish. The only real advantage that Wish has over D.Tutor is their mana requirements, but even that is fairly minor for the new builds with stronger mana bases.

Keep in mind that my first response was to your "Another option is to replace Demonic Tutor with Wish" comment.

Cutting it for the lone REB is comepletely different, although, considering that the two cards are completely different, it looks like it would make things a little unbalanced. In a deck like this, there is no need for more Tutors, as you did state before, and the toolbelt that is currently found in the maindeck has been working just fine for me.

[nataz]

Apparently TMWA took 12th at waterbury on day two

That was Chad, the other main player of TMWA on Ball and Chain. He lost a very close match against outlaw in the last round before the top 8. Speed had just enough mana to pull it out at the end, it was a nail biter. Just think how different the top 8 could have turned out considering speed split for first :-p

[keys]

Not in any way was I trying to be "hasty", I am just struggling to find the logic in why you would cut Demonic Tutor for Burning Wish. The only real advantage that Wish has over D.Tutor is their mana requirements, but even that is fairly minor for the new builds with stronger mana bases.

Well, I would argue that "real advantage" of including Burning Wish in the maindeck is the access to Stax and EtW hate (e.g. Spree, Slice, Spray) game 1.  The logic behind Wish seems pretty self-explanatory to me.  Now, I'm not sure I see how 1R is that much better than 1B, but that could be another advantage.

The correct number of tutors needed to support the maindeck toolbox is another question entirely.  I only figured that the inclusion of Burning Wish might reduce the dependency on the maindeck toolbox, thus TMWA might want to reduce the number of non-Wish tutors from 3 to 2.  I didn't say this is the correct decision, it's only my quick consideration of the card pool milieu.

I still feel that the 1 Pyroblast is a little random, and Wish would be more constructive in its spot.

My point here is that Burning Wish could be very strong, considering the SB targets that are already available and in tune with the deck's strategy.  Sure, embellishments such as Yawg. Will or Massacre could be added to the SB if Burning Wish is adopted, but that obviously isn't a requirement.

[wethepeople]

The singleton REB is too random, yes, and I admit that I dont even use it in my build, if I am not mistaken, I am currently running Engineered Explosives in it's slot. I would take EE over Swords to Plowshares any day, simply because it isn't ever a dead card, regardless of the matchup, where as STP and Pyroblast commonly are.

For the sake of this argument however, I will try to create a list that can actually make use of Burning Wish, although, I still need to think things over a bit as to which cards I should cut from both the MD, and the SB. After further consideration, I have thought of strong cards that could in fact be used, but causing both of your lists to adapt to Wish properly seems difficult.

[Implacable]

...where as STP and Pyroblast commonly are [dead cards].

I know that this is anecdotal, but I recently played in a large Vintage tournament.  Of my 6 rounds, Pyroblast would have been dead exactly once.  It's a great hate card maindeck, and I consider it the equal of Misdirection, because, after all, they are both used against blue control for much the same purpose.

[Myriad Games]

Congratulations again to Chad on an excellent finish.

I can see running Burning Wish with the right sideboard.

Pyroblast is very useful in the current metagame.