The Mountains Win Again

[LordHomerCat]

Congrats on the excellent finish!  That is definitely the most unique decklist I have seen in Vintage in a very long time.  Did you ever find you had too much creature kill main (4 Pyro, 4 Snuff Out, 2 Contagion) if you weren't paired up with Flash?  10 Kill spells with more in the board seems like a lot for Vintage to me.

Also, were the Gargadons in the board for Fish or other aggro decks?  How were they, I know they are a beating in T2 but Gargadons in Vintage seems really strange to me.

[Euphonic]

10th place with jagged poppet. AWESOME!!! Congrats.

I have a question tho. I have been reading TMWA thread latley and i see that many people run Gathan Raiders in thier builds. I'm wondering if i missed something, because i really dont understand why hes so worth running. I must not be understanding quite the way that he works. If you could enlighten me i would really appreciate it! thanks

[TopSecret]

Congratulations on the finish, Dan!
I always love to see The Mountains Win Again!

Perhaps there should be more ridiculous Type 2 cards maindeck?

[Valrauka]

10th place with jagged poppet. AWESOME!!! Congrats.

I have a question tho. I have been reading TMWA thread latley and i see that many people run Gathan Raiders in thier builds. I'm wondering if i missed something, because i really dont understand why hes so worth running. I must not be understanding quite the way that he works. If you could enlighten me i would really appreciate it! thanks

Gathan Raiders is good for these decks partially because some of them play a few madness cards and this lets you discard them, also these decks use their hands up very quickly so its not hard that by turn 3 you are morphing the gathan raiders then pitching your last card making the raiders 5/5 for 3 mana which is a very efficient beating stick.

[Myriad Games]

The only time I felt I had too much creature removal in the main was against combo. Against GAT, Flash, Stax, Fish, Goblins, etc (basically ~90% of the metagame), I felt that level of removal was good. Gathan Raiders is certainly a questionable card choice, but he's good against little guys, helps get hellbent, and doesn't provide mana when he's Drained. The deck needs a clock, and though the Jagged Poppets are excellent in that regard, I felt it needed something a bit more. The Raiders get sided out against Stax, Flash, and sometimes GAT, so they may need to become something else. If only we could find the next Jagged Poppet! Gargadons were there vs. Stax and Oath primarily, but they're also good against other creature decks.

[Spacebalzz]

So, is TMWA just any deck that has red, Blood moon effects and no blue?  I have to say, minus the Blood Moon effects, Yarrington's deck looks like no TMWA deck I've seen before and probably deserves its own thread instead of being lumped into this one (I mean, the B/R version that took 5th some time ago was actually "TSWA")

Just my thoughts on the matter.

-Matt

[Myriad Games]

The Mountains Win Again title generally refers to decks that run a combination of red, black, and white cards (not necessarily all colors) in a tempo style deck. The fact that there are only 4 "mountains" aka Badlands in this build, does not make it any less a version of The Mountains Win Again. The proliferation of actual swamps is to solidify the mana base in the presence of Magus of the Moon, who certainly creates a lot of Mountains. Naturally people will refer to decks by the abbreviations and appellations they deem appropriate. I tend to call most of the decks I create and play The Mountains Win Again, because they all revolve around the same style of play and card pool.

[feyd]

I have had a lot of luck running burn decks under the radar to beat all the competition.  A lightning bolt to the dome is worth brainstoirm in hand most times.  Sure force is active, but are you going to counter the horde of threats that will follow?  Morphling comes to mind as a beast to win a creature war...so does masticore.  Creatures are important to magic and should always recieve some credit.  Aven mindcensor is a beast and am surprised it has not seen as much tournament play.  That is all. Feyd

[WhiteWolf]

@ Dan: I'm thinking of playing this deck (version 39.3). It not only looks insanely fun but seems to have good match-ups against the top decks (Flash, GAT, Goblins, ... ). Seeing that there still is some Pitch-Long in my area, how do you rate that match-up? Any experiences to share against storm-combo e.g. against Alex Franson with GWS Pitch Long?

I guess Duress, Unmask, Magus of the Moon, Leyline of the Void and sideboard Pyroblast can go a long way. Even a succesfull hit from an Hellbended Jagged Poppet can be crippling against combo. But are these things enough? I would really appreciate it if you could share some experiences. Thanks!

I guess the choice of Cruel Edict above Diabolic Edict is purely for the Misdirection issue?

WhiteWolf

[SimonCopp]

I guess the choice of Cruel Edict above Diabolic Edict is purely for the Misdirection issue?

WhiteWolf

Cruel Edict can be misdirected. See here: http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=129514

[wethepeople]

I guess the choice of Cruel Edict above Diabolic Edict is purely for the Misdirection issue?

WhiteWolf

Cruel Edict can be misdirected. See here: http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=129514

Then that would mean Duress could also.

[Bill Copes]

I'm probably wrong, but when you misdirect a spell that says "Target Opponent," unless there is more than one opponent, the spell  fizzles.

Misdirection's wording is "Change the target of target spell with a single target."

Since the controller of the spell does not change, if there aren't any additional legal targets, it can't resolve.


(This is why I play stax -- no targeting nonsense!)

[Myriad Games]

I'll be writing up a full report with match information including the match against Alex. Game 1 I actually had the Magus lock and Alex just drew cards for about five turns before getting the Lotus to break out and storm up to exactly 10 to kill me. The proactive disruption and lock pieces are great against most forms of combo, but you can't take anything for granted in Vintage. There's almost always a possibility for the other player to win, no matter how good your position.

The Cruel Edicts are indeed there because they're better against Misdirection. Unfortunately I only played GAT, where this is relevant, once, and didn't see any Edicts during that match. As I understand it, you can target Duress or Cruel Edict with Misdirection, but Misdirection will fail to change the target, since there is only one valid target. It works out rather well and I feel that it's worth the gamble in the GAT matchup.

[vroman]

I played against this deck in the vintage prelim. magus moon is such a beating, esp for me, bc my primary creature defense in every deck I pilot is factory.
every card in Dan's list makes sense to me except for Gathan raider. I discussed this w Dan, and Im not convinced 3c for eficient beater is remotely worth it in vintage. I recomend grim lavamancer. also if hellbent is the goal why are you not playing bazaar? I watched Dan lose a game in the champs bc he topdecked 4-5 land in a row. the curve is real low, so why not cycle lands and get jag-pop active faster?
unmask is especialy good now to pull protean hulks, against hand like [flash, m-scroll, hulk, mana]

[Myriad Games]

Thanks again to everyone for the comments.

I agree that Gathan Raiders needs replacing. I've placed Lavamancer quite a bit in the past. I just don't think he'll cut in the current environment. Ideally I'm looking for a two drop creature with a relevant ability. I concur that Bazaar would be a good fit to the deck. I just can't justify running it and Magus, when it becomes just another Mountain. We either cut a colored source for it and destabilize the mana base, or cut something relevant for a draw engine that's only best when our card selection is less than optimal. Still haven't found that sweet spot for a creature that provides cheap disruption and a decent clock. Once we find this companion for the mighty Poppet, the consistency of the deck should improve.

[TopSecret]

Hey, Dan,
maybe there should be some Nezumi Shortfangs all up in here?

[LUPO]

I have been playing a deck somewhat similar to this for a while and very much like what you have done here.  In terms of a good two drop, I have always played Dark Confidant and Withered Wretch.  I know the confidant will hurt you a lot with all the pitch spells, but cards are cards.  The wretch is also a beast against a lot of decks and in my opinion very under rated.

Also, have you considered Chalice of the Void?

Congrats on the finish

[Myriad Games]

Fox: While I love going hellbent, I don't think I can get my opponents hellbent as reliably, to use Nezumi's ability.

Lupo: Wretch is an option, but anything BB doesn't fit well in the mana base since you want to be able to rush out Magus without locking cards in your hand. Chalice is a very good option, and something I may try more extensively.

[wiley]

Hello all, as you can see I recently joined the boards.

I was following some of the gencon matches and saw the latest rendition of this deck and it certainly did intrigue me.  And since it's original creator still follows this thread i'd like to see what he (and everyone else) think of the following list ...

Lands
 2 Mountain
 4 Swamp
 4 Badlands
 4 Bloodstained Mire
 2 Polluted Delta
Creatures
 4 Jagged Poppet
 4 Magus of the Moon
 4 Simian Spirit Guide
 4 Goblin Vandal
Enchantments
 4 Leyline of the Void
 4 Pyrostatic Pillar
Spells
 2 Contagion
 4 Pyrokinesis
 3 Snuff Out
 4 Duress
 4 Unmask
Artifacts
 1 Black Lotus
 1 Mox Jet
 1 Mox Ruby
Sideboard
 2 Blood Moon
 3 Chalice of the Void
 2 Imperial Edict
 4 Pyroblast
 4 Shattering Spree

I am wondering if i should switch out the pillars for md chalice, and put in pithing needles in the sb, id like to be able to chalice for two most of the time, but i'm not fully sure how this lock would be better than just screwing them with the magus, or how consistantly i could get the four mana for it.

the next tournament i'll be going to will allow 15 proxies, so there really is no telling what people will be bringing unfortunately.

I look forward to your help.

[Myriad Games]

So changes from version 39.3 are:

Swap in two Mountains for two Swamps.
    I could see running 1 Mountain, but not too. Having a lot of Swamps is very important for getting correct mana under Magus.

Cutting 1 Snuff Out and 3 Gathan Raiders for 4 Pyrostatic Pillars.
    That certainly could work, but I'm not convinced that Pillar is good enough in the current environment. It certainly would help against all those decks that play lots of spells. I hear there are a few of those in this format 

I could also see Chalices in the main, either at 0 to complement Magus lock or at 1 or 2 (usually preferably 2). There's not much in the main deck that gets shut down by Chalice @ 1 but virtually nothing that gets shut down at 2. Sideboard looks about the same.

I generally like it, especially the ability to play around Chalice and/or Pyrostatic Pillar. Let us know what kind of results you get in testing.

May the Mountains Win Again!
   

[Myriad Games]

Inspired by Feinstein's best-placing-fish-deck challenge, I'm offering a similar bounty for winning versions of The Mountains Win Again.

Any version of TMWA that makes Top 8 at a tournament with 24 or more players will be eligible for a special prize (foil, foreign, etc) from Myriad Games. Prizes will be customized to suit the individual winners tastes.

This bounty applies to all events posted on The Mana Drain until further notice. If you are not from the local area, simply PM myriadgames after the tournament and we'll mail you the card(s) free of charge.

Some guidelines for the deck are as follows: Some combination of red, white, and/or black. Wins with creatures. Is ridiculously fun to play. 

If in doubt about whether or not your concoction will qualify, simply PM myriadgames and I'll review your list.

May The Mountains Win Again!

[TopSecret]

Does this mean that there can't be blue or green in my deck
for it to be considered TMWA, Dan?

[Misemaster]

Hey Dan, this is Brendan from Fienstiens tournament who played an older version of your deck. I want to thank you as many have for building such a fun deck to play in vintage. As far as a creature to replace gathan raiders, have you considered nezumi graverobber? He does have poor synergy with leyline, but its grave removal ability is semi relevant and once he flips he is a 4/2 beater who can return your dead creatures or all the dudes you have been killing. The leyline issue might be enough to ax him though. Just a thought.

[Myriad Games]

Fox: I may make exceptions for green cards, but probably not blue since most decks that run blue immediately turn into running FoW and sometimes Misdirection and therefore 12x blue spells to support the pitch spells.

Brendan: Glad to hear you're enjoying the deck. Nezumi Graverobber could be an option, but certainly Leyline works against including that.

My two-weeks-of-Vintage tournament report is still in progress, but I'll be posting it as soon as it's completed.

Keep the discussion going and be sure to post here with results from your experiences playing TMWA.

[WhiteWolf]

Could Vromans latest creation be considered a TMWA-style deck? It's mainly RBW (but 5-color), very fun to play and wins with creatures. I played the deck a little, found it fun yet very competitive and am seriously considering taking it to a tourney next week.

Instead of posting the list and getting people confused about who created the deck, you can find the list here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33875.0

@ vroman: If you mind me mentioning the list here, just tell me. At least the list was already made public. Actually, I would say the deck deserves it's own thread. If you don't mind I will edit the list in this post.

@ Dan: Concerning your BR list: could Mesmeric Fiend replace Gathan Raiders? It's a puny clock but nice disruption. Other things I considered were Gorilla Shaman or Hearth Kami (2-power!)

greetings
WhiteWolf

[Myriad Games]

White Wolf: I'm not sure Vroman would consider his deck TMWA, but I certainly think it falls in the parameters for what the deck does. We tested Mesmeric Fiend in place of the Raiders, but he was underwhelming the vast majority of the time. Either too slow or too fragile, depending on the matchup. Gorilla Shaman certainly replaces Goblin Vandal in a metagame not so chock full o' Shops as GenCon was. As much as I love Hearth Kami, I don't think he's relevant enough to the current metagame.

[wiley]

So changes from version 39.3 are:

Swap in two Mountains for two Swamps.
    I could see running 1 Mountain, but not too. Having a lot of Swamps is very important for getting correct mana under Magus.

Cutting 1 Snuff Out and 3 Gathan Raiders for 4 Pyrostatic Pillars.
    That certainly could work, but I'm not convinced that Pillar is good enough in the current environment. It certainly would help against all those decks that play lots of spells. I hear there are a few of those in this format 

I could also see Chalices in the main, either at 0 to complement Magus lock or at 1 or 2 (usually preferably 2). There's not much in the main deck that gets shut down by Chalice @ 1 but virtually nothing that gets shut down at 2. Sideboard looks about the same.

I generally like it, especially the ability to play around Chalice and/or Pyrostatic Pillar. Let us know what kind of results you get in testing.

Oh, descks I've tested against (I'm at work so the statistics are all at home )

Mono R Stax
Ichorid
GAT (Stephen's build from Gen Con)
Mirror
Bad Fish

May the Mountains Win Again!
   

Thank you very much for the help.  You are absolutely correct about the mana base, switched back to 6 swamps.  As far as the pillar goes it has worked beautifully for me so far.  It has consistantly stalled storm decks (and GAT at times) to the point that I can clutch the victory, however my build runs into some problems when they can get creatures on the board so I think I will try adding back in the snuff out at the expense of one pillar.

Chalice usually doesn't outperform the pillar, and I haven't had many games when I would prefer it (the damage has almost never hurt me signifigantly).  I wonder if there would be a better sb card, maybe better creature kill/ a token mind twist?

This really is a fun and well designed deck, I'm very glad I stumbled upon it.  

[Myriad Games]

You're welcome. I can see running Mountain if you're running Grim Lavamancer or possibly to support Vandal in a heavy Workshop environment. I'll have to try the Pillars.

Keep on enjoying the Mountains!

[vroman]

@whitewolf
I always consider all my lists open for discussion.
I actually started a thread about my RBWgu hate deck like two months ago but some mod deleted it bc they dont like my card abreviations and I wasnt interested in rewriting the post.

[zabuza]

Well is the first time i write here but i have several thoughts can be useful for averybody and few questions too.
First of all answering to myriadgames i´ve thought of critters that can be very good in this deck. The only thing is that they are not disruptive but they can be really good beaters.They are:

* blood knight: a "2/2 first strike protectiuon from white is really good because it can stop savagers beating, jotun, meddling, kataki, and lot of beaters and survives to tell about.
*Gobhobbler Rats: if you are using hellbent, this rats are nice. they will be a 3/2 regenerates for only 2 mana.
*another 3/2 beater is the sulfur elemental wich is very impresive because it can´t be countered, he kilss all the aven, savanah lions, etc only when he arrives and he can kill a jotun or a savager (he dies too, afetr all in this case).
*if you want disruptive critters i use Goblin Tinkerer or vishino heretic because they can kill an artifact without having to beat the oponent before.The only thing is taht the vishino is another 3cc critter and the goblin can kill lot of things but can die in the process.

After that another thoughs and questions.

Have you thought using pulverize as a sideboard to stax? I think is another free spell that wins this match for itself

i would use shudden shock in the main because there are lot of GAT GUSH, etc. Shudden can kill an atog(atog = psychatog), can kill a dryad(is not dificcult to have two mana when they `put the dryad to play and shudden shock surely kill her) and can kill lot of other stuff like kiki-jiki, ravager, meddling, ... (except jotun an savager it kills the rest XD).

Have you played against oath? i was thinking about and this deck is a bye to an oatha player (but never the world is perfect) and the rest of the games you are very well positioned to win, but the combination of black and rede only leaves you dystopia to face him. (note: i like this combination.i don´t like red and white because massacres are around and i think the deck is worse than red and black).

What´s about snuff-out and unmask. Are the snuff-out a good option. it can´t kill atogs because they are black. surely it can kill a lot of another threats but, i think is not an optimal choise but i can fiind another except "terminate" (but it is not a free spell, i know).
The unmask is another thing. Are they necessary? you have 4 duress and i think 8 cards to make your oponent discards is excesive, isn´it?

Nother one is that i love shattering spree. IT kills a lot of hateful artifacts for only one mana and if you have a chalice of 1 you can still play it (paying RR) to destroy an artifact(beacuse the copy is not countered, it goes to the stack directly) and you can kill a lot. would be interesting to take aut vandals and take in 4 shaterring spree?

finally in my version (i don´t post it now because i´m working on it. when it´s finished i will write it here) i´m going to use the following cards

3 null rod
3 chalice
3 pyllar
4 duress
4 REB
4 shudden
4 Pyrokinesis
4 leyline
4 moon´s magus
4 jagged poppet
3 shattering spree
----
4 shimian spirit guide
3 wasteland
1 strip mine
mana

what do you think about it?
thanks. i´ll be waiting for your answer.