UW FISH: Teh Primer!

[Implacable]

i decided to make a list of things to meddling mage because it is one of the most important cards in this deck. I found a post a while ago where i got my information but a can't seem to find the link. You have to know what you're playing against and with all the variations of decks out there it's so hard to tell. Also remember that mage is a very situational card and it depends what is going on that that moment in the game. Now here is my list:

a. Ubastax
1.   Goblin Welder
2.   Crucible of Worlds

b. 5c Stax (any difference between the card named in the uba matchup?)
1.   crucible of worlds

c. Control Slaver (if dry slaver you would probably go for gifts)
1.   Thirst for Knowledge
2.   Tinker

d. Meandeck Gifts
1.   gift's ungiven
2.   Yawmoth's will
3. Empty the Warrens (Because, let's face it, these guys annihilate you)

e. Most Long Variants
1.   yawgmoth's will
2.   Dark Ritual

h. Sullivan Solution
1.   Dark Confidant
2.   Dimir Cutpurse

i. U/W Feinstein Fish 
1.      Extremely Situational

j. Worse Than Gro
1.   Vinelasher Kudzu
2.   Wild Mongrel

k. Workshop Aggro (you saw Juggernauts, etc in game one)
1.   Juggernaut
2.   Crucible of Worlds
3.   Triskelion

l. Bomberman (traditional build)
1.   trinket mage
2.   Auriok Salvagers
 
m. Oath
1.   Oath (this is a given)
2.      Mana Drain

o. Dragon X
1.   Intuition (naming an Animate won't do much good, simply because they have so many)
2.   Deep Analysis

Also if you have to blind call a mage and you see an island it's probably a good bet to name mana drain just because it's used in so many decks. Any suggestions are open to discusion and remember this is a general outline.

I just have a couple of points that I disagree with you on, but that's a great list.  My personal changes are in bold.

[zeus-online]

Speaking as a dragon player, sometimes the correct thing to name really is animate dead, although Med. mage generally speaking isn't good against dragon.

Simple reason: Animate dead is played more heavily then the others (okay necromancy is often a 3-of aswell).

Necromancy is 1 more mana though, which could be enough to keep them off the win for a turn or so.

/Zeus

[wethepeople]

My greatest mistake when playing the deck, is in fact calling incorrect names on Meddling Mage. I however have gotten a little better at determining the opposing deck, just by turn 1 land-drops. The following are the considerations I make when determining my opponents deck, only with knowledge of their first turn, followed by the card I choose when casting Meddling Mage.

Turn one Swamp- Almost always some form of Tendrils-combo. Often times I call Dark Ritual here. Later in the game, however, I like to shut off the bigger threats. (Yawgmoth's Will)

Turn one Island- This can be variable, though, a turn 1 Island most-commonly leads up to someone setting up a Mana Drain, so they can avoid Wastelands. I usually just call MD.

Turn one Tundra- UW/x Fish. I hate Mage in the mirror, too situational.

Turn one Volc- CS, or Gifts, though, it is rare for them to actually lay a non-basic turn one, that usually means that they don't have a Drain. TFK, Tinker, or Gifts.

Turn one Underground Sea- This is difficult to call, and it usually requires a bit of reviewing on your metagame. If they played Moxen, in addition, it's probably not any kind of Storm-combo, because more often than not, they hold their spells until the choose to "go off." This greatly depends on other cards that they played.

Turn one Fetchlands are hard, when it comes to giving you any real information. Flooded Strand, usually, is UW/x Fish. Bloodstained Mire is Combo, or a deck similar to The Mountains Win Again. Polluted Delta can lead to almost any deck in the format.

Although, if I have other options at this point, I usually will cast something other than a blind-Meddling Mage.

Following this, I have found myself calling the correct card with Meddling Mage often, though, I am obviously not always correct. Because with just one turn's knowledge of my opponent, it is very difficult to be sure. I usually prefer to cast something other than Mage this early in the game, if I have the choice.

[Dxfiler]

I like Krtzer's list very much and agree that correct meddling mage names are of the highest importance with UW fish.  I have some minor nitpicks with his list, but agree with it on the whole.

Against 5c Stax, it's not an auto-name with crucible.  I'd put smokestack and balance on that list.  Those are the top three concerns for me more often than not.  I've run meddling mage out there on tinker before too, but smokestack, crucible and balance are of the biggest concern normally.  Now even though I fear balance the most, I'm going to name crucible or smokestack more often against 5c Stax because there are just too many versions of the deck and alot of them don't maindeck balance.  It's pretty much a gamble.  If it's a known list/player I'll just run mage out there on Balance.  I did it against Roland in our Waterbury match and even though he didn't draw it, I'd name it every time in the situation I was in. 

As far as what to name against Uba, I actually think you name goblin welder.  It's always a 4 of and especially since alot of people have cut down on plows, you really want a way to stop welder from pounding your skull in.  Against 5c or workshop aggro mage on welder should not be a primary target, but against UBA-Stax I just don't see a better target, at least in game one.  I mean, you could cheat and name Bazzar hoping they don't catch it, but I wouldn't recommend it :p

Against Bomberman I think Salvagers should be named first every single time, even if trinket is always a 4 of and salvagers isn't.  While trinket is a 2-for-1, the card they get usually isn't very painful.  The #1 trinket target against UW fish is aether spellbomb, and #2 is engineered explosives.  Both cards are very easy to come back from, and neither does squat if you have null rod out.  Now salvagers, he's a 2/4.  We don't like 2/4's :p  Combine that with the fact that you are never truly safe from being combo'd out with a salvagers out, and it makes naming him the easy #1 choice in my book.  Of course, it's situational.  I've ran out mage on balance against bomberman in the past.  They don't run it typically (although I think they should), but I'm still completely scared to death of it.

The biggest points of contention arise with what to name on gifts.  I like naming gifts or mana drain alot as my primary targets these days, having moved away from yawg will although it's still my #3 choice.  Under pretty much no circumstances do I name a storm card as a target, pretty much because if you name one storm card they just kill you with the other one.  Naming Empty is obviously the better choice if forced to name that or tendrils, but you should never really be tempted to name either.  There are bigger problem cards in the deck and you have a contingency plan against empty (echoing truth).  Against tendrils you don't have much maindeck (unless running true believer) but as I've said in the past, it's VERY hard to get tendrils'd out if you have mage on yawg will.  It's not hard to get tendril's out if it's vice versa.  Basically you don't let the opponent get yawg will off, because it wins games :p
 
Still, I'm inclined to name gifts ungiven more often than not, because a resolved gifts pretty much means game over.  At this point in time, gifts is not restricted so mathematically it's the right call to go after the 'I win' card that players can play more than one-of.  Depending on board position I like naming mage on drain, but you need to put them on it (which is tough with some yahoos cutting the number of drains maindeck, like brassman) and it's really only best if you fear a counter war over an ' I win' card.  If ahead on the board (as fish usually is early against gifts), just name an actual card that can beat you like yawg or gifts and don't walk any more threats into a drain.  You only need 2-3 two power beaters and the pressure is on them to beat the clock.

Again, the above were just minor things I disagreed with but I feel that's a fantastic list by Kertzer on what to name with meddling mage.  Thanks again for the list.

- Dave Feinstein

[kirdape3]

Depending on the board state, Gifts is right - but Believer stops Gifts itself so you'll next want to stop them from answering that guy.  I've also named Merchant Scroll on numerous occasions to good effect.

I disagree though with naming Mana Drain.  Every card in a standard Fish list costs 2 or less mana (minus Force of Will, but how often do they have enough mana to threat that you have to stop plus Drain the Force?).  In my experience, Drain gets sided out by competent players against you because it's their least effective card in the deck.  I'd name their singleton bombs like Will, Tinker, or even Empty the Warrens before I'd name Drain, every time.

[wethepeople]

Depending on the board state, Gifts is right - but Believer stops Gifts itself so you'll next want to stop them from answering that guy.  I've also named Merchant Scroll on numerous occasions to good effect.

I disagree though with naming Mana Drain.  Every card in a standard Fish list costs 2 or less mana (minus Force of Will, but how often do they have enough mana to threat that you have to stop plus Drain the Force?).  In my experience, Drain gets sided out by competent players against you because it's their least effective card in the deck.  I'd name their singleton bombs like Will, Tinker, or even Empty the Warrens before I'd name Drain, every time.

I recall naming Merchant Scroll a few times, and it was a good selection. In Steven's first thread on his Gifts Ungiven build, he spoke of how Gifts tries to Scroll up an early Ancestral Recall, as often as possible. Shutting off Scroll puts a damper on their draw engine, as well as shuts down ways of getting additional permission, and Gifts. So it is yet another good selection for Meddling Mage.

Mana Drain has been a good choice for me, because just as often as I see Merchant Scroll, I see my opponent waiting to Drain something, even if it is something minor, followed by using that mana to cast a bomb. I have been told by a few different Gifts players that they do in fact side out Drain in the aggro matchup, although, I am unaware of that being done by all players, but even then, I almost-never call "Mana Drain" games two and three.

Game two, Empty the Warrens is my first choice, because lately, it has been real common for it to come in as a 3'of post-board.

[andrewpate]

I'll agree with the point about Mana Drains.  I have been known to side them out against aggro myself, and even if the opponent does not do this, the point still holds that they get sided out because they are suboptimal.  Worst case is that the opponent failed to side out some suboptimal cards, which isn't that bad a case at all.  As a result of which, I'll always name Empty the Warrens against Gifts.  It's just too back-breaking, even when it resolves for only like 6 or 8 guys.  And if I have Mage #2 that I'm going to run out, it will most likely be set to Gifts.

[salthecarp]

Today in Milwaukee I piloted my UW Fish deck into my first top 8 since the 1990s.  Unfortunately my stay in the top 8 was cut short after a tragic rematch with Sui Black with extirpates.
My big insights:
Ensnaring bridge and Serendib Efreet seem to be good choices against random aggro.  Wish they would have worked better against Oath.  Fact or Fiction was also good in testing for these matchups, but never came up today.

Overall, I have been very happy with Ninja of the Deep Hours, especially with my new one-drop of choice, Sage of Epityr.  These two keep a constant stream of tailor-made problems for my opponents.
My other trick vs. Extirpate that I learned today is siding out Brainstorm.  After chaining 2 brainstorms game one when I knew I was dealing with extirpate, I sided down to just one and my opponent took the bait, extirpating the lone brainstorm.  I am interested to hear anyone else's commentary on these choices.
Good luck to all,
Peter

[Akuma]

I don't think siding out Brainstorm is a good idea. Who cares if the opponent Extirpates your remaining Brainstorms? It does nothing to your strategy. The only time it becomes an issue is if you have another Brainstorm in your hand.

Your opponent would be better off removing threats or Tundra's...

[salthecarp]

I think my opponent's line of thinking was that
1) brainstorm was a very important card to the deck
2) If there's one brainstorm in the deck, there must be 4.

While the first point is debatable when we consider the oversimplified view that every card in a fish deck is pretty much the same, the second is a common assumption, whether or not people give a lot of thought to it.  I have been testing phasing out Brainstorm in favor of Sage of Epityr.  I feel that what it loses on brainstorm is made up for by its ability to dig deeper into the library, deal damage and synergize with Ninja of the Deep Hours.  Given the massive amount of black that I ran into at the tournament, the Sage was also helpful because of its immunity to duress and lack of being ruined by Chains of Mephistoheles.  With Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Extirpate out, I think the popularity of Chains will rise and Duress too.

While a deck like Fish may be more resilient to extirpate than combo and control decks an early extirpate on Flooded Strand or a Tundra that's been wastelanded can be debilitating.  I had a game where I had Force of Will, Jotun Grunt, Meddling Mage and Tundra extirpated, and would have won anyway if it wasn't for the Tundras being gone.  I think Sacred Ground may be a viable sideboard choice if Extirpate's popularity continues and Stax keeps coming back.

-Peter Ambrose

[wethepeople]

Honestly, I think that when you're opponent Extirpate'd your Brainstorm he was performing a misplay all to begin with, so sideboarding them out is most likely going to be irrelevant versus most players. I would much more be worried about being raped of my fetches, duals, et cetera, as opposed to Brainstorm, a card that isn't even a prime factor in this deck.

[jeffthefob]

Hi, my name is Jeff and I recently top 4 split at Eudemonia’s Pearl Tourney with u/w fish.  I would like to share some of my thoughts in u/w fish and see if any improvements can be made.  I don’t play vintage all that often but I follow the u/w fish from the forums pretty well and played it a couple times during Eudemonia’s 2nd Power series. 

Here is my list:

4 Meddling Mage
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Savannah Lions
3 Jotun Grunt

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Null Rod
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Time Walk
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Echoing Truth
4 dazes

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
2 old man of the sea
3 seal of cleansing
3 orim's chant
3 umezawa's jitte
1 Kataki’ War’s wage
1 Trickbind
2 Swords to Plowshares

Here are some highlights and random thoughts of my matches

Rd 1 - Gifts /w Tinker.
Game 1 - I started off with Isamaru and added small white weenies to the board and beat him in.  A resolved null rod sealed the deal after I wasted his underground sea the turn before.  I didn’t sideboard against him because I was unsure what he was playing… either gifts or cs. 

Game 2 – It was bit unfortunate because I again, started off putting pressure pretty early, but made a misplay of not wasting his land before casting a 2cc spell which ran into mana drain.  The following turn he Gifted with YagWill in hand (that he vamp tutored a turn earlier) and I got beat in by 11/11 tin man + burning wish for time walk and etc.  If I had done stuffs differently, the turnout might be different.

Game 3 I started off casting meddling mage naming gifts (turn 1, <3 mox) and a second mage naming Yawg Will.  Then wasted his underground sea and ripped strip mine for his other land.  End of the game he showed me 2 gifts and the Yawg Will he was holding with a drain.  I think he just pretty much kept a hand with all the necessary stuffs but was too slow to go online, as he doesn’t have any moxen, only the drains…

Rd 2 - **promoting eudo’s website** http://www.eudemonia.net/forums/ultimatebb.php/topic/34/13.html I was “featured matched” for some odd reason, I don’t know why, but just shuffled up and played.  The link has some neat pictures and a cool report that sums things up.  Oh, it sucks that I can't do math correctly.. got a game loss because of it.

Some worthy notes: Game 3 I mulled to 5 on the draw.  I was stuck with one land after brainstorming, and was stuck on one land for a considerable amount of time.  With Oath out and me not having any pressure or put up any pressure puts me way behind.  And I think he was bit too aggressive by playing the Trike, because I honestly think I can’t do anything if he just sits there with counters.  I have to take care of oath first.  And the part where I echoing truth’ed the oath and played mage puts me way ahead of him; if he had a counter there, I would just flat out lost.  Oh, and also I made a very bad mistake by oathing up a dork.  Lets just say it could had been very bad and I was very lucky.

Rd 3 – u/w “old” fish.

Game 1 – Walking in I knew my opponent have Icatian Javelineers which I think are bad news for my deck because I have like D.I. 1 toughness guys >_< and it is essentially 2-for-1.  And he also have Mishra’s factories, which are 3/3 men on defense.  With only 2 swords man… I wasn’t too excited and hopefully I can mise game 1 and win the post board games.  To my surprising, game was fairly close as I drop my dorks who are stopping his ninjas.  And we are basically plowing, FoW’ing small fish men.  But I eventually lost as I was stuck on one plain for the mid part of the game when he drew wastelands and I have D.I. two drops and dazes in my hand T_T He resolved a Crucible (by tapping out! I had a Daze!), with wasteland and factories in yard I scooped.

Game 2 – I drew a mox in my opener + turn 1 dorks and my sideboard’ed Jitte basically killed him.  He was bit frustrated.

Game 3 – Between games I saw him re-sideboarding so I was assuming he boarded in back his null rod, or his seal of cleansing if he had any.  This game he had a slow start and I was beating him down with lion and a Kataki until he got his factory online.  I even killed one of his factory because he was unaware of the summoning sickness ^^” Meanwhile I finally drew a Jitte, but took a couple turns to equip it on my guy because he wasteland’ed me and my Kataki was occupying one of my precious mana.  After I equipped it on my Kataki I swung in, he thought long and hard and decided to Swords my Kataki, and I reequipped on lion and replace the Kataki that I was holding in my hand for couple turns.  I had FoW + Old Man on my hands, but I chose not to Force the Swords because I had another guy on board, I can use FoW on something else and besides, a resolved Old Man would just be game.  During his next time, he tapped out to play Crucible which I countered, had he resolve that I was pretty sure I would be dead.  I swung in, putting counters on Jitte.  And he cast Null Rod to stop my Jitte.  But he had no blocker at this stage and my next swing brings him down to 2.  He drew a blank and that was game.

Rd 4 and Rd 5 – ID.  Thank god there was exactly 32 players.

Quarterfinals – Mono U Control o.O

Game 1 – I think this is a fairly good match up for me, if I drop men on board and stop Ophidians I am all good.  He won the die row, but just played an island turn 1.  I led off with lion and it stuck.  And that turn 1 lion dealt 10 damage to him ^_^ He was stalled on land and I think I resolved a null rod which jammed up his mox, a “worthless” wasteland (in the picture!) picked off his Library (how lucky! nonbasics!) and just stunned his mana even more.  He resolved a chalice for 1 but I then played jotun grunts and that was enough.

Game 2 – I boarded in seal of cleaning after seeing chalice ^^” (awkward, I don’t really recall them playing it, it is rather dangerous if they resolve one early) Well, I brought it in because I think they play powder keg or something (it turned out he boarded in control magic.) My opener was nuts! I had Pearl, Dog, Cat, Plains, and seal in my opener ^_^ He played turn 1 chalice for 1 with help of Sapphire… And I was like… **** hope he doesn’t have FoW.  And I was fortunate enough to successfully blow up the chalice.  And if I recalled right, he just passed the turn after his Chalice hit the graveyard! Apparently he kept a land light hand but had chalice for 1 on the play (very logical). Then next turn, I led off with Isamaru (Dog) to have it Rune Snagged.  (I had a land in my hand -_-|||) Then my lion resolved.  I then proceed to play Kataki the turn after he found his land, but Kataki was stunning his Sapphire.  He resolved an Ophidian, but I was able to bounce it back to his hand and counter it.  From this point on, I pretty much just beat my way in and with him having limited mana and me holding a Daze; I didn’t think he could have done anything.  Soon he conceded. 

As Luis, Web, and Eirik all won their matches we had a 4 way split ^____^

This is the first type 1 tourney Norcal had in a while, so naturally the metagame is bit… “different.”  There are a 32 players total, I knew there were about 5 Ichorid, 1 SS, 1 mono U, 3 or 4 Oath, 2 stax, and a lot of gifts.  And oh, I am pretty sure my 3rd round opponent and I were the only u/w fish players. 

Sorry if my tourney report is messy, and please excuse my grammar.  >_< Now, some of my thoughts about the deck.  I have two things I really want to share/ask.

First is…I really think 1 drop; Savannah Lions and Isamarus are very important part of u/w fish.  If not, the most important recipe of the deck.  A lot of the games I won involving me dropping turn 1 action (looking back, I pretty much had turn 1 beater).  I felt like I really need to put some sort of pressure on early in the games, otherwise this deck just don’t function that well.  I think Daze and Stifle (a card I didn’t play because of lack of space and people were just playing around them) gets exponentially better with turn 1 men.  A lot of the times I mulligan my hand if I don’t have an 1 drop in my hand because I think those hands were too slow (of course, some other factors were considered such as 2 katakis and etc).  With a turn 1 men, a turn 2 Null Rod is lot sexier.  Maybe 7 is too much, but I had the full amount last year; I have the concept of Boro’s where turn 1 drop change the outcome of the game significantly. 

Second… Against gifts I think naming Yawg Will is the most important thing.  Of all the games I play-tested against Luis I resolved many early mages naming Gift and he just basically killed me with Yawg Will.  Gifts weren’t even drawn or involved or anything.  I am having my doubts naming gifts now when I resolve mages… so… yeah… some suggestions?

Another card I didn’t play is Misdirection, I didn’t have space for it.  I think many of you guys might suggest me to cut a lion/dog to add in a Mis-D.  I understand that Mis-D acts like a 5th FoW in a way and Mis-D Ancestral Recall is like the nuts.  Is Mis-D just that good for me to play at least one? 

I was very lucky not to face any EtW, but for me the echoing truths worked out very well.  They are blue cards at the worst.  I didn’t like u/w fish list that much back when jotun grunts replaced ninja of deep hours because I realized the lack of blue cards made FoW a lot harder to cast. But echoing truth in general is a pretty all around useful card.  I believe the number of swords should be cut from maindeck, but not all.  They are still very handy sometimes, and is needed in aggro match-ups.   

I played only 18 lands, as I recall on the forum, Dave said he cut to “18 and never looked back.” Despite I was having some mana problems, but I think that is just luck of the draw, 18 is fine. 

Sideboard… This is a problem for me, somewhat...  I don’t think I had it correctly.  What exactly do I board in against gift? The gift list I played Round 1 has 11/11 Tin Man in it… so I kept on swords.  In fact, I didn’t board in anything other than like one Trickbind because I was on the play.  Reading Dave’s post on page 5 of this thread, I realized I probably should had board in Chants… but throughout the games I played I was pretty much the one doing the attacks, I just didn’t think of boarding in chants.  I also read about True Believer and etc.  But can you guys maybe shred of light regarding sideboard against gifts?

Thanks.

-Jeff

[brianpk80]

A few extras for the Meddling Mage list-

Oath
1. Oath of Druids
2. Time Walk
3. Duress (if you're holding more than one Swords and they have Oath active, pre-sideboard)

Ichorid
1. Dread Return
2. Balance
3. Cabal Therapy

Uba Wire
1. Tangle Wire (I'm serious about this)
2. Welder / Duplicant
3. Chalice of the Void (especially if you don't run Vial)

FCG
1. Goblin Recruiter
2. Goblin Warchief
3. Goblin Piledriver (the pro-Blue really kills in blocking decisions)

Pitch Long
Consider Chain of Vapor game 1 if you have another lock piece on the table that is helping you

Feinstein Fish (if you're playing Vial Fish)
1. Swords to Plowshares (situational)
2. Null Rod

Gifts
1. Ancestral Recall, if you can get the Mage out really quickly.  Scroll -> Ancestral is the only draw engine that deck has; the rest is all tutors, Brainstorm, and sometimes FoF. 

And Implacable is absolutely correct on the Dragon changes.  You can never lock them out of Animating with a Meddling Mage.  Mage is subpar in this whole match but pre-Bazaar Intuition is the best call, and then if they're building CA, Deep Analysis works.  Name Duress if you're holding a Trickbind or Extirpate.  It's easier said than done but all you need to do to win this match-up is prevent a lethal Dragon loop from initiating.  It's that binary. 

Post sideboard a lot of times, I find it's better to just board out Mages rather than try to predict which of the 10,000 hate pieces they're going to bring in against me.  The diversification and instability of the metagame has made Meddling Mage a lot weaker this season than it was just a few months ago.  It used to be possible to lock an entire "tier 1" deck out of a game 99% with something as simple as a Tormod's Crypt and a Mage on Tinker.  I'd encourage Fish players to experiment with different utility creatures and see how it works out.  With the extremely high error rate on Meddling Mage these days, it might be a good idea to retire him for a few months. 

-BPK

 

[Implacable]

A few extras for the Meddling Mage list-

Oath
1. Oath of Druids
2. Time Walk
3. Duress (if you're holding more than one Swords and they have Oath active, pre-sideboard)

Ichorid
1. Dread Return
2. Balance
3. Cabal Therapy

Uba Wire
1. Tangle Wire (I'm serious about this)
2. Welder / Duplicant
3. Chalice of the Void (especially if you don't run Vial)

FCG
1. Goblin Recruiter
2. Goblin Warchief
3. Goblin Piledriver (the pro-Blue really kills in blocking decisions)

Pitch Long
Consider Chain of Vapor game 1 if you have another lock piece on the table that is helping you

Feinstein Fish (if you're playing Vial Fish)
1. Swords to Plowshares (situational)
2. Null Rod

Gifts
1. Ancestral Recall, if you can get the Mage out really quickly.  Scroll -> Ancestral is the only draw engine that deck has; the rest is all tutors, Brainstorm, and sometimes FoF. 

And Implacable is absolutely correct on the Dragon changes.  You can never lock them out of Animating with a Meddling Mage.  Mage is subpar in this whole match but pre-Bazaar Intuition is the best call, and then if they're building CA, Deep Analysis works.  Name Duress if you're holding a Trickbind or Extirpate.  It's easier said than done but all you need to do to win this match-up is prevent a lethal Dragon loop from initiating.  It's that binary. 

Post sideboard a lot of times, I find it's better to just board out Mages rather than try to predict which of the 10,000 hate pieces they're going to bring in against me.  The diversification and instability of the metagame has made Meddling Mage a lot weaker this season than it was just a few months ago.  It used to be possible to lock an entire "tier 1" deck out of a game 99% with something as simple as a Tormod's Crypt and a Mage on Tinker.  I'd encourage Fish players to experiment with different utility creatures and see how it works out.  With the extremely high error rate on Meddling Mage these days, it might be a good idea to retire him for a few months. 

-BPK

 

I just have a note on the Gifts matchup: Post-board, against any Gifts list, I'd name Empty the Warrens first.  I have played many, many matches against U/W Fish with Empty, and it just wrecks them; even if they have the Truth, they can't win the counter-war over it.

[brianpk80]

I just have a note on the Gifts matchup: Post-board, against any Gifts list, I'd name Empty the Warrens first.  I have played many, many matches against U/W Fish with Empty, and it just wrecks them; even if they have the Truth, they can't win the counter-war over it.

Yes and that card is probably the most significant reason that I don't play Fish these days.  Another option is Weathered Wayfarer with a single copy of Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Maze of Ith if you anticipate facing Tinker -> DSC post-board.  Explosives @ 0 is also pretty elegant and quick enough to fly under the radar. 

But either way, it's really annoying playing Gifts game two now, laying a Crypt or Chalice, then casting a Mage and thinking "Hmmm... Warrens, Will, Tinker, Flametongue Kavu, Chain of Vapor, Rebuild, Hurkyl's, Abyss, Gifts Ungiven, Pyroclasm, Massacre, Threads, Old Man, Merchant Scroll, Ancestral Recall... what to do, what to do."

It's much smoother to just play Oath of Druids, which is the best Fish deck out there.

-BPK

[Implacable]

It's much smoother to just play Oath of Druids, which is the best Fish deck out there.
-BPK

I absolutely agree with this statement.  Modern Oath plays like a sort of Fish/Combo hybris; it runs Fishruption, like Rod and Chalice, and Comboruption, like Duress and Misdirection.  When a deck can run both kinds of disruption, it is obviously very powerful.  When you make a Fish deck , you have a choice: running 6/6s or 2/2s.  It shouldn't be hard to pick.

[brianpk80]

I absolutely agree with this statement.  Modern Oath plays like a sort of Fish/Combo hybris; it runs Fishruption, like Rod and Chalice, and Comboruption, like Duress and Misdirection.  When a deck can run both kinds of disruption, it is obviously very powerful.  When you make a Fish deck , you have a choice: running 6/6s or 2/2s.  It shouldn't be hard to pick.

5/5's that bounce your opponent's resources back to hand have rarely done me wrong.  Akroma says "Please Tendrils me within 2 turns" while Tyrant says "Oh darn, you can't cast that cause I bounced all your Undergrounds and Moxen then put down a Chalice."  Grand Arbiter gets an A+ from me in this set up as well.  Oath up a Sphere of Resistance that I can hardcast w. no problems if it gets stuck in my hand?  Sold. 

But you're right.  You can either play with 20 2/2's with various utilities (some which are very weak these days IMO) or limit your win conditions to 4 mini-Tinkers and their targets.  Then you get a big enough blue base to run the control suite (I do Merchant Scroll) and it's a real flexible menace with reasonably good match-ups across the board.  An Oath Prison is capable of playing just about any role out there and it does it respectably well.  It's like the most compact Fish deck out there. 

-B

[wethepeople]

Frankly, I haven't been having many problems at all with Empty the Warrens post-board. It's the random game one ETW's that catch me off guard.

Adapting to a new win condition is quite simply, really, it's isn't difficult to handle a large quantities of 1/1's when having access to a sideboard. I have built some of my more-recent builds strictly to face Gifts (with ETW), and standard U/W Fish variants.This may sound stupid.

The reason is that just about every matchup I have come across in the past few months has been either: Fish, or Gifts. Of course there are other decks out there, but I am most-worried about those two, and I will use a fair share of my sideboard for the remaining matchups.

Game one, I already have a strong disruption package for almost any form of combo, that is including Gifts Ungiven-based decks. I actually have been having a great amount of luck winning these games. I am sure it has a lot to do with all of this practice I have been recieving in those given areas.

Game two however, I am expecting to see Empty the Warrens. The card has been around long enough for almost everyone to has included it in their board. There are a good-amount of different cards that can any given number of 1/1 Goblin tokens. These cards in particular can be found in my sideboard, and in lesser-quantities MD.

All of the selectons have been discussed various times before, so I don't think I really need to go over them all again. Although, the three that I prefer most are Echoing Truth, Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale, and Engineered Explosives.

As many of you know, I have been tinkering around with Trinket Mage-based Fish decks, all of which similar to standard UW, UB, and UWb Fish builds. Trinket Mage gives me access to answers for almost every card I expect in my metagame, one being Engineered Explosives. Trinket Mage has been helping a lot to answer ETW, because it provides a 2/2-beater, and allows me to dispose of ETW-tokens.

This however is just one way to fight Empty. Others include the usual disruption package like Chalice of the Void, and Stifle, but those aren't 100% reliable.

I have a UWb list that I have been really satisfied with lately, and performs well in a wide-range of matchups. I will continue to go over it later in my thread, if anyone is interested.

[thebig1]

Hello, I'm new to the site and competitive type 1, but I recently bought the cards for fish and was wondering which version to run: the u/w version or u/w/b with duress and disruption.  Any info would be great thanks.

Welcome to TMD! I've corrected the mistakes in this post, but in future, please take the time to use correct spelling, grammar, capitalisation, punctuation and so on.
-Godder

[wethepeople]

hello, im new to the siite and competitive type 1, but i recently bought the cards for fish and was wondering which version to run the u/w version or u/w/b with duress and disruption.  any info would be great thanks.

Right now, I personally prefer the black splash. It is a metagame call, but even if you aren't positive what you will be facing, I still think it is a worthy selection. The only draw-back however is that it has a weaker Stax matchup than the usual UW builds, but Stax is far less commonly played in Vintage right now, you can thank Empty the Warrens for that.

[brianpk80]

Right now, I personally prefer the black splash. It is a metagame call, but even if you aren't positive what you will be facing, I still think it is a worthy selection. The only draw-back however is that it has a weaker Stax matchup than the usual UW builds, but Stax is far less commonly played in Vintage right now, you can thank Empty the Warrens for that.

I second this but with a caveat.  A lot of my experience with UWb revolved around the Confidant.  It seemed I would win a lot of the games I had a first turn DC but would lose more often if he or his vessel (the Vial) didn't show up.  Confidant is like the Oath of Druids in the deck; it's that four-of that is so determinative when you get it in your opening hand.  The challenge for a UWb build is having very relevant first turn plays in addition to Dark Confidant. 

And on EtW from above, I agree w. your point that it's manageable in game 2 and 3.  The problem I have is I always designed my Fish lists to be optimally prepared against every popular strategy out there with several answers to Tendrils, Oath, Colossus, etc. and compacting a good consistent EtW response for game one in with the rest of the list was frustrating and annoying.  It can probably be done (and my experience with Wayfarer as a one drop was really positive) but I'm not feeling the task these days.

-BPK

[wethepeople]

Right now, I personally prefer the black splash. It is a metagame call, but even if you aren't positive what you will be facing, I still think it is a worthy selection. The only draw-back however is that it has a weaker Stax matchup than the usual UW builds, but Stax is far less commonly played in Vintage right now, you can thank Empty the Warrens for that.

I second this but with a caveat.  A lot of my experience with UWb revolved around the Confidant.  It seemed I would win a lot of the games I had a first turn DC but would lose more often if he or his vessel (the Vial) didn't show up.  Confidant is like the Oath of Druids in the deck; it's that four-of that is so determinative when you get it in your opening hand.  The challenge for a UWb build is having very relevant first turn plays in addition to Dark Confidant. 

And on EtW from above, I agree w. your point that it's manageable in game 2 and 3.  The problem I have is I always designed my Fish lists to be optimally prepared against every popular strategy out there with several answers to Tendrils, Oath, Colossus, etc. and compacting a good consistent EtW response for game one in with the rest of the list was frustrating and annoying.  It can probably be done (and my experience with Wayfarer as a one drop was really positive) but I'm not feeling the task these days.

-BPK

I certainly wouldn't consider Dark Confidant one of the "determinative" cards in a game. I have won countless games without him, those of which were games that played out like UW Fish, with the exclusion of Savannah Lions. In my more-recent lists, I use two Hounds of Konda, along with a fair amount of one-drop threats like Duress, and Stifle. I have gone up to four Moxes to greaten the number of turn one Confidants, because don't get me wrong, that is still a strong turn one play for this deck, but I wouldn't necessarily consider it crucial to it's win.

My last list uses Echoing Truth for bounce, and ETW, along with one main decked Swords to Plowshares. I recently have been using a singleton Engineered Exlosives that is accessable via Mystical, or Vampiric Tutor. These minor modifications have in fact been great when needing answes in a wide-range of different matchups.

I will probably post my newest list in my thread, for those of you who are interested. I would however like to get a little more testing in before I do so, incase I come upon any last-minute adjustments.

[andrewpate]

I recently have been using a singleton Engineered Exlosives that is accessable via Mystical, or Vampiric Tutor.

???

Did you mean Mystical for Vampiric for Engineered Explosives?  Isn't that play terrible?  I guess I'd need to see your list, but only 1 EE, with only Demonic and Vampiric to get it, seems a bit on the weak side.  Sure, it's great if you're running like Trinket Mage SS or something, but I don't get the idea that you are.  Could you elaborate?

[wethepeople]

I recently have been using a singleton Engineered Exlosives that is accessable via Mystical, or Vampiric Tutor.

???

Did you mean Mystical for Vampiric for Engineered Explosives?  Isn't that play terrible?  I guess I'd need to see your list, but only 1 EE, with only Demonic and Vampiric to get it, seems a bit on the weak side.  Sure, it's great if you're running like Trinket Mage SS or something, but I don't get the idea that you are.  Could you elaborate?

Ah, I didn't intend for it to come out that way. 

By using Echoing Truth, and Engineered Explosives I have access to two different answers to ETW, as well as other common threats. Those two selections are accessable by Mystical Tutor (for ETruth), or Vampiric Tutor for either of the two. However, I may just use additional E-Truths so I can avoid the situation of having a Mystical Tutor, and no answers to the twenty-six Goblin tokens on my opponent's board. The only problem is that it would be yet another 2cc spell, and my curve is already heavy on that number.

I do have a UWb Trinket Mage-based list, as well as an SS w/ Trinket Mage list that it is similar. And right now, I think that Trinket Mage might be an optimal selection for newer Fish builds. I have gone over this before, but to sum things up, it provides you with whatever threat that comes forth, like ETW-tokens, creatures, et cetera.

[Dxfiler]

"Just when I think i'm out... they pull me back in" - Italian Mobsters

Alright, I'm back to just straight UW again.  For those keeping track of recent posts of mine (why are you doing this? :p), I recently advocated other less attacky (that's a word, right?) forms of fish, mainly focusing on trinket mage and confidant.  After reading lots of posts from people in this thread and looking at recent tourney results, I see no reason not to continue playing this deck.  So here I am again... advocating uw and planning to play it this weekend at the myriad tourneys. 

Here's what I'll be running:
// Lands
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    2  Island
    4  Flooded Strand
    4  Tundra
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Windswept Heath
    1  Plains

// Creatures
    4  Meddling Mage
    3  Kataki, War's Wage
    3  Jotun Grunt
    2  Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    3  Savannah Lions

// Spells
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Force of Will
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Null Rod
    1  Time Walk
    3  Daze
    1  Misdirection
    2  Echoing Truth
    1  Mystical Tutor
    2  Stifle
    2  Swords to Plowshares

MD Possibilities: More Lions, More E. Truths

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 4  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2  Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 2  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2  Orim's Chant
SB: 2  Trickbind

SB possibilities: Old man, More Echoing Truths

It's basically what I ran at waterbury, but a couple changes inspired by other people who have had recent success with the deck.  Thank you to Jeffthefob, Wethepeople, Salthecarp, Brasstheman and others for sharing their experiences with and against this deck.  It has helped me very much and re-invigorated me to play type one again, specifically UW fish.  I had not touched it since Waterbury and I regret that very much :p

I'm pretty sure this is the list I'll be going with, but I appreciate feedback/suggestions as always.

Now onto some assorted things that have popped up in this thread lately-

A) Sideboarding against gifts- This is never easy.  Ever.  :p  It basically depends on the specific version you're up against.  Pretty much always bringing in trickbinds/chants here.  I decided to go with both because I like to mix it up.  Plows should probably come out more often than not, even against tinker verions.  Bouncing colossus is relatively easy to pull off and some gifts players side out tinker against fish (at least in my neck of the woods).  As for the other cards to side out... who knows.  I've considered bringing out lions just because the guy count is still 13-15 after taking them out.  Possibly stifles go out?  Out stifle in trickbind is weird but might make sense.  Out plow in chant is relatively straightforward.

B) I h8 chalice in this deck.  I always have, I probably always will.  It just feels like a mulligan whenever I draw it.

C) I'm considering adding a slight splash for reb's.  Unsure at this time, but I know people who've done it and it's apparently been good.

D) I enjoy long walks on th- ok that's all I have right now.

- Dave Feinstein

[LSD/Cruise]

Red is awesome. You also get things that Gorilla Shaman, which is like a Null Rod but is awesome because they cant Tinker... kinda.

[Liam-K]

Gifts
1. Ancestral Recall, if you can get the Mage out really quickly.  Scroll -> Ancestral is the only draw engine that deck has; the rest is all tutors, Brainstorm, and sometimes FoF. 

While you are correct, as a gifts player I'll say Merchant Scroll is almost certainly a better target.  It's involved in scroll->ancestral, plus there are three more of them and you rely on it to get bounce (especially relevant vs null rod).  Plus, as Fish you can then proceed to cast your own Ancestral if you topdeck like a pro.

[wethepeople]

Now onto some assorted things that have popped up in this thread lately-

A) Sideboarding against gifts- This is never easy.  Ever.  :p  It basically depends on the specific version you're up against.  Pretty much always bringing in trickbinds/chants here.  I decided to go with both because I like to mix it up.  Plows should probably come out more often than not, even against tinker verions.  Bouncing colossus is relatively easy to pull off and some gifts players side out tinker against fish (at least in my neck of the woods).  As for the other cards to side out... who knows.  I've considered bringing out lions just because the guy count is still 13-15 after taking them out.  Possibly stifles go out?  Out stifle in trickbind is weird but might make sense.  Out plow in chant is relatively straightforward.

B) I h8 chalice in this deck.  I always have, I probably always will.  It just feels like a mulligan whenever I draw it.

C) I'm considering adding a slight splash for reb's.  Unsure at this time, but I know people who've done it and it's apparently been good.

D) I enjoy long walks over a stream of babies.

- Dave Feinstein

Well, I am atleast glad that you are back, playing Fish, regardless of the color configurations. 

Somewhat recently, I worked on a minor red splash. It was targeted mainly for CS, Fish, Stax, and a fair amount of Gifts. The red splash was great, all except for one matchup- Stax. Adding the third color did of course weaken my mana base, but it also allowed me to use various different bombs that wreck in the Stax matchup.

Maindeck REB's were rarely dead in any matchup, even in 5c Stax, I saw it coming into play. REB's, when combined with a profound creature base, generated much disruption to the Control opponent. In the mirror, they work as the occasional StP, because they can take out a few different creatures, as well as stop their draw engine, or disruption, if necessary.

I am unsure if the red splash is the best way to go right now, but I myself have been successful with UWb.

[brianpk80]

While you are correct, as a gifts player I'll say Merchant Scroll is almost certainly a better target.  It's involved in scroll->ancestral, plus there are three more of them and you rely on it to get bounce (especially relevant vs null rod).  Plus, as Fish you can then proceed to cast your own Ancestral if you topdeck like a pro.

Yes, you are right.  If you know you are playing Gifts and you can get the Mage out there in time, Scroll is a great target.  Sometimes, your opponent opens with Land Mox Scroll -> Ancestral and those are the cases that commonly prompted me to name AR with a Mage.  Timing is everything. 

-BPK

[wethepeople]

While you are correct, as a gifts player I'll say Merchant Scroll is almost certainly a better target.  It's involved in scroll->ancestral, plus there are three more of them and you rely on it to get bounce (especially relevant vs null rod).  Plus, as Fish you can then proceed to cast your own Ancestral if you topdeck like a pro.

Yes, you are right.  If you know you are playing Gifts and you can get the Mage out there in time, Scroll is a great target.  Sometimes, your opponent opens with Land Mox Scroll -> Ancestral and those are the cases that commonly prompted me to name AR with a Mage.  Timing is everything. 

-BPK

Yes, this is the reason why I rarely see myself calling Scroll. I do agree with you that it is a great choice early game. The problem is that game one, it is hard to know that they are playing Gifts, unless you have some additional info about your opponent, allowing you to have knowledge before. Game two, I always name Empty the Warrens. It is a card that almost always comes in versus Fish, and makes it into play with a mini-storm within the first few turns, followed by a 2-3 turn clock consisting of 1/1 Goblin tokens.