UW FISH: Teh Primer!

[uwfish2000]

ouch sorry... that is my fisrt post 
well this is my latest deck list. I will play it this Monday.

creature (19):
2 Savannah Lions
1 Isamaru, Hound Of Konda
3 Stormscape Apprentice
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 True Believer
2 Ninja of The Deep Hour

Instant (16):
3 Brainstorm
1 Ancestrall Recall
2 Echoing Truth
3 Sword to Plowshares
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

Atrifact (5):
2 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl

Land (17):
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plain
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

SideBoard :
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Disenchant
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Null Rod
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Kami of Ancent Law
1 Ronom Unicorn
1 True Believer
1 Stifle
1 Echoing Truth

Stormscape - to tap creature like Darksteel Colloseus, Jotun Grunt, Ichorid, other bigger creature
True Believer - I Hate Duress, Cabal Terapy, etc...
Ninja of The Deep Hour - not die with Enginereed Explosive and drawer
Stifle - Fetchland, Viridian Shaman, etc...
Kami & Ronom - Oath
Jitte - Vs Elf,Goblin,TMWA,etc...


Why i play just 2 Null Rod not 3 on MD:

in my meta 2 Null Rod is more than fine. if i make it 3, i almost find it 2 in my hand. And i hate it. Beside Ninja and Brainstorm can help me to find this card. if is not, i'm so unlucky :p

Now i want to ask something? Can this deck win Versus TMWA? Comment will helpfull. Thx. all.

PS: Sorry if my english bad...

[Dxfiler]

Now i want to ask something? Can this deck win Versus TMWA?

TMWA has historically been a rough match, but it's certainly winnable.  Lavamancer is the biggest problem creature and he's been phased out of many of the newer versions.  Confidant is still lurking around most and he's certainly problematic, but many tmwa pack alot less burn than they used to.  It's mainly magma jets, and while I'd rather not see those cast, they aren't backbreakers.  The problem is when you just can't get a creature to stick, which is much more common games 2 and 3 then first game.

Basically it's a war of attrition.  You have draw spells, they have removal spells.  If you throw enough guys at them in a short enough span, some will stick.  The ones that stick eventually die, but they deal 2-3 points each so you should have them to single digits by your 10th-12th guys.  These will be your last guys against them but they are finishers.  Jotun Grunts are huge here.  Echoing truth and stifle tricks to protect them are at an absolute premium in this match.

After board you have a hell af alot to battle them with.  Your particular version has 3 jittes, kataki+grunt for 3 stifle and 2 rods.  That's an easy enough swap.  You could take it a step further and bring in kami, true believer and/or the two disenchant you have, but this is probably overkill.  Be wary of when you're dropping ninja because you may walk it right into a reb, causing a huge tempo loss.  REB is their best card for you post board.

They have funky stuff like bloodfire dwarf, but just don't walk into him.  Don't lead with lions against this deck if you can just drop Isamaru.  Alot of people think baiting with the worst creature is right, but I'm not in that camp.  If you're on the play lead out strong and be the beatdown.  Make them react.  An unchecked Isamaru will hit for anywhere between 4-8 against TMWA.  All their early guys will be 1/1's.  At worst they drop an Isamaru of their own, and that's fine.

You pretty much just go balls to the wall post board and if you play tight, just enough damage should be able to come through more often than not.  Sometimes you just can't do anything in games against TMWA because they just have the answer for everything you have, but if you know the answers they have you can work around them.  Lavamancer, for example, should be taken care of at all costs.  It's worth FOW'ing.

Speaking of FOW, that's a card certainly worth considering to side out against TMWA.  I personally haven't done it but if you ever find yourself needing to bring in extra stuff, those are a good a candidate as any.  TMWA doesn't really have explosives starts and there's no single card that can devastate you typically.  They just hit you alot of different ways through small, efficient burn spells and creatures.  So FOW could certainly be sided out.

That's my thoughts on the TMWA match, but you could always private message Myriad Games or ask him in the TMWA thread, also located in this forum.  He's very helpful and has alot of insight into the fish match.  It's his favorite match :p

- Dave Feinstein

[Warden]

Hey guys,
Im new here...but not a stranger to Magic or Fish decks for that matter

I currently run a U/R Fish but wanna convert to U/W.
I Love how efficient the U/W build is --- although B is tempting

My thoughts:
-Mindcensor is way too slow
-stormscape greatly depends on your evironment
-Jotun Grunt x3 = right number to run MD (4th SB obv.)
-skullclamp beats standstill/curiosity and on a jotun, it still nets tempo with or without paying the upkeep
-Morningtide a solid SB card for anti-grave decks (may bump up to 3)

*Going the Aggro-friendly Dog-Cat for now

Warden U/W Fish v1.0
Creatures
2   Isamaru, Hound of Konda   
3   Jotun Grunt   
3   Kataki, War's Wage   
4   Meddling Mage   
3   Ninja of the Deep Hours (sure, debate over him but he's a blue pitch card and can "re-use" meddling)
2   Savannah Lions   

Spells 
1   Ancestral Recall   
4   Brainstorm   
3   Daze   
4   Force of Will   
2   Misdirection   
3   Stifle   
3   Swords to Plowshares   
1   Time Walk   

Artifacts 
2   Null Rod   (i agree that 2 MD is fine)
2   Skullclamp (why not? tempo with jotun and most other cards)

Lands 
4   Flooded Strand   
2   Island   
2   Plains   
1   Polluted Delta   
1   Strip Mine
4   Tundra   
4   Wasteland   
1   Windswept Heath
   
Sideboard ~ (15 cards) 
1   Jotun Grunt   
1   Kataki, War's Wage   
2   True Believer (they can't target you)
2   Echoing Truth   
2   Morningtide (grave-hate for ichorid n the likes...)
3   Absolute Grace (massacre = no prob)
2   Null Rod (for the approp. matchups, clamps leave and +2 nulls in)
2   Umezawa's Jitte

[Fenrus]

Absolute grace doesn't stop massacre, since it neither targets or uses damage the creatures still die.
As far as a fish mirror match, using the cats and dogs list posted earlier in the thread, how would you recommend boarding for game 2/3?

[Webster]

If you're playing in an environment where "2 null rod is 'ok'", then:

a) fish in a suboptimal choice because there is too much hate/aggro.

b) you are playing against terrible people and therefore don't appreciate how crucial null rod is to fish.

c) you don't know much about fish at all and should read up on the deck/play with it before posting.


Running a card as a 2-of makes the likelyhood of drawing it very low, especially in decks with no tutoring power (No, I am not suggesting that fish start running enlightened tutor or some other nonsense like that. I am making a supporting point and not opening up some tangential discussion so let's leave it at that). Brainstorm + fetch is not tutoring power and neither is ancestral recall. The cards you draw are what you have to work with. Redundancy is required for important components of decks. Null rod is important to fish; you want to see it every game as quickly as possible. Using the argument that you always draw a redundant copy when you're playing is not a valid reason to cut a copy from the deck; it is statisically invalid.

[Warden]

My bad, thought Abs. Grace said cant be targeted by Black...anywho,
-3 Abs. Grace
+1 morningtide
+2 seal of cleansing

About the # of Null Rod.
We can all agree 2 or 3 is the right number

Statistics and Actually playing are totally different.
Webster : I know I need to playtest more and play a buncha different opponents with a slew of decks and see what works n what doesnt. Maybe you're right and it should be 3 but im saying if you're basing 3x > 2x rod just off stats (3/60 > 2/60) i wont really take that. Plus you can recall/clamp/ninja/standstill/ w.e sorta draw into it, thus enhancing the % of getting it.

Personally, Im just playing around with many things and I found running 3, as somebody else mentioned, would get another to pop-up midgame when it wasnt needed, wasting my draw.
And Maybe Fish is suboptimal around my area but I enjoy playing certain decks --- Im playing to win and enjoy magic simultaneously and Fish happens to do that. Webster, maybe you're right --- it may be too aggro for me to run fish n maybe ill have to go BirdSh*t or some other variant (idk if thats still part of Fish, a BirdSh*t decklist was listed as part of the 1st post)

[Webster]

Statistics and Actually playing are totally different.
Webster : I know I need to playtest more and play a buncha different opponents with a slew of decks and see what works n what doesnt. Maybe you're right and it should be 3 but im saying if you're basing 3x > 2x rod just off stats (3/60 > 2/60) i wont really take that. Plus you can recall/clamp/ninja/standstill/ w.e sorta draw into it, thus enhancing the % of getting it.

I've played fish for about 2 years.

Running 2 null rods really isn't an option in my book.

[jeffthefob]

Null Rod is a card that defines fish.  Hopefully that can be gathered by reading some of the other posts (this thread and others).  It is just a skeleton of the deck that can't be taken out.

When do you want to drop Null Rod? Turn 2? I would drop it turn 1 via Lotus :-p + cat/dog.  This means you want to drop Null Rod ASAP.  I avoid playing 4 because having 2 sucks a lot, so I play 3.  However, there are times where I wanted to play 4, can't say I never thought about it before.  This counters the arguments where you "draw" into null rods, you just want to drop it turn 2.

This links back to where I think cat/dogs are so important, turn 1 cat/dog + turn 2 Null Rod is pretty good start for Fish.  But without that turn 1 2/X critter, then... T_T

And the first thought that popped up to my mind is, if you think 2 Null Rod is a good number, then Fish isn't that good of a deck choice for you.  Fish is not as good against "random aggro" or just "random" decks.  ON Block Goblins would run over Fish most of the times.  Playing 2 Null Rods is like saying your metagame don't have much control which makes you want to draw Null Rod occasionally. 

Fish is a deck with redundancy... all these redundancies define what Fish is, and that is why it is a great and a CONSISTENT deck. 

So, I agree with Webster... of the things he stated...

Jeff ^^"

P.S. Ninja is a fine card! Like any other cards, he has a "pro" and a "con."

[uwfish2000]

@webster & jeffthefob : Thanx. I will change my deck and return it to 3 Null Rod Again.

@dave : Your comment help me a lot. it give me, what can i say it..... a light? because vs TMWA on test deck or tournament i never win.

Ow, By the way, did my version is too aggro? Because there's no combo player so i built these deck.
Comment will very2 helpfull...

[Tiki Walker]

Hello there, uwfish 2000! Nice to meet you here.

After observing the UW Fish deck list that you posted earlier, it seems that your list is quite unique.

I noticed that you only use 3 Brainstorms. Any reasons you would like to share with us on why you only use 3 Brainstorms as opposed to 4? What is you logic on this decision. If somehow you substituted the 4th Brainstorm for other card in your list, then what is it that you are substituting in for the 4th Brainstorm?

More, I also noticed that your list does not include Time Walk. Time Walk some consider as quite a good spell to gain more tempo for aggro control mode decks like your list. Would you care to share the logic behind Time Walk's omission from your particular list?

I am sure that you have reasons to retain those Ninjas in your list. Seeing your metagame sample, quite a lot of red decks are represented. I think they are likely to bring in Pyroblasts and Red Elemental Blasts in game 2 and 3 to deal with your deck, not just to deal with the Ninjas; but I do think that Ninjas will attract a fair share of those Pyroblasts and Red Elemental Blasts from them, if they have the chance to steal away the tempo from you. Ninjutsu requires you to return previously casted creature and also requires you to pay the cost in the form of mana in your turn. If somehow they find that the Ninja is attractive enough to draw Blasts or Swords to Plowshares, then it is likely they have stolen some  card advantages and time from you, because they managed to achieve 1 for 2 card advantage over your board development. If you think that Ninjas in your deck are integral to your deck's function, then at least be very cautious playing in game 2 and 3 with Ninjas against those red decks. Not to mention that Counter Slavers can also pack red Blasts if they choose to.

If it is draw effect that you want then why won't you try to put in the 4th Brainstorm and the Time Walk in place of those 2 Ninjas?
If it is resiliency against anti creature artifacts such as Engineered Explosives, Spellbombs, or board sweeper like Nevinyrral's Disks, then maybe you would like to increase the number of Null Rods in the main deck back up to 3.
If what you want is a beater that also can net you some cards, then maybe you would like to consider splashing the deck a bit for black color for those Dark Confidants. .

Of course those are just humble suggestions, anyway; I am sure that you have reasons to built your UW Fish deck like what you have built right now.

Thank you.

[uwfish2000]

The reason i play 3 brainstorm is, brainstorm is not a drawer, it just replace a 1-3 bad card with 1-3 good card (Silly isn't it)
i subtitute it with a creature or another instant spell.

Time walk is a great card, sure it is! But i think in my version i don't need a sorcery card. i need another spell solution or creature. with 21 mana i almost find my land is between 2-3 (i don't know why). so, if it countered it's time walk myself 

Ninja is a great card too. i almost paly it in 2nd turn. may be i play it wrong? because someone told me that ninja is play only if my hand is near empty. i like ninja because it help me to face Enginereed Explosive. in my meta EE always MD in opponent deck.

ow BTW, which sideboard should i pick if i face Control slaver and how to play it?

Thx 

[Warden]

Null Rod is a card that defines fish...It is just a skeleton of the deck that can't be taken out.

This links back to where I think cat/dogs are so important, turn 1 cat/dog + turn 2 Null Rod is pretty good start for Fish.  But without that turn 1 2/X critter...

Fish is a deck with redundancy... all these redundancies define what Fish is, and that is why it is a great and a CONSISTENT deck. 

So, I agree with Webster... of the things he stated...

Jeff ^^

P.S. Ninja is a fine card! Like any other cards, he has a "pro" and a "con."

Thanks for explaining this bc it just made me realize why most of u go 3x. And im retarded...sorry if i ticked you off Webster.

In my nievity (totally made that up) I have a question now ---> (im liking the Cat+Dog run of the deck and playtesting it its got a nice aggression to it)
What are the options to running Ninja of the Deep Hours?
what i mean to say is how many and the pro's n con's

I think 2-3 would be good but some prefer stormscape apprentice (i understand this)
and I know Ninja + Meddling = meddling can rename the blocked card

The drawing is another perk but for those not running, what do u play MD in its place?

Thanks everyone --- Warden

[Stamford]

Time Walk is needed in any deck that plays blue and relies on tempo.

You cannot think that Time Walk is lousy. Having a Time Walk is essential in every Fish deck.

You get an extra land drop, an extra attack phase with your creatures and even get to leave your mana open for hardcasting counters or just playing a Null Rod.

To simply put, have you ever seen the power of Hypnotic Specter, Dimir Cutpurse, Dark Confidant, Ninja of Deep Hours with the power of a Time Walk?

Getting in an extra 2 damage or more, together with 1 extra card from a creature can never hurt.

In fact, Time Walk also serves the purpose of actually making your deck 59 cards if you are playing it. You simply cannot lose out when playing a Time Walk.

As a UW Fish deck, you should be content to have just 16 lands instead of 17, especially when you only dedicate your deck to 2 colors.

Null Rod, as mentioned by others in this thread should be a 3-of. I would advocate more if you are playing against a more combo field.

Stormscape Apprentice, while being cute, is not played much. Originally, it was played, solely as an answer to DSC and could act as a 1/1 beater.
However, due to format changes, some decks run the EtW kill plan too, therefore, i would ask you to run more Echoing truth instead of this subpar creature.

You mentioned you are having finding creatures problems, Brainstorm actually helps in finding your creatures faster and playing them too. You also maximise the usage of Brainstorm due to the high number of fetchlands your deck runs. So i reccommend you run 4 of them.

Brainstorm also helps in helping you find a counter in case your opponent casts a game-winning spell. Besides, Brainstorm fixes your mana problems, your threat problems and basically almost every minor problem you might have.

Brainstorm is actually Ancestral Recall in disguise as you can actually choose and play the cards you drew. It is a very good card selection spell.

Your deck is also lacking in a focus.

There are two main ways Fish can go.

1) All-in
All-in means playing the most aggressive package and hope that your creatures can deal the lethal points of damage under the protection of counters in the first 5 turns of the game. Most Fish decks of this variant run 4 Savannah Lions and 4 Isamaru to maxismise the chances of a 1-drop. This particular strategy also makes it difficult for decks using life as a resource to fully maximise their life for resource strategy. (E.g. Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Grim Tutor, Vampiric Tutor.)

2) Card Advantage
Card advantage means playing creatures that give you an edge in gaining more card advantage. Examples of cards like this are Dimir Cutpurse, Dark Confidant, Ninja of Deep hours. This route tries to go into more control an eventually locking out the game for the opponent due to card advantage. They also include things such as an Erayo lock.

Since you are playing UW Fish, Meddling Mage also serves as a temporary card advantage card as it locks out one of your opponent's spells.

If you are going the first route, your creature base would most likely be
4 Isamaru
4 Savannah Lions
4 Meddling Mage
3-4 Jotun Grunt
1-2 Kataki

If you are going the second route( not much reccommended unless you are playing black too)*, your creature base would most likely be
4 Ninja of Deep Hours
4 Meddling Mage
4 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki
3-4 Savannah Lions



*Black has Dark Confidant, Dimir Cutpurse, Hypnotic Specter, all of which are more card advantage based than what white offers.

 

[Webster]

Thanks for explaining this bc it just made me realize why most of u go 3x. And im stupid...sorry if i ticked you off Webster.

You didn't tick me off. I understand some people jump to take part in discussions that they find interesting without exploring the subject by themselves at first. That's my take on you. It's normal to be energetic but research also helps to explain things that you would have normally asked about had you not done any.

When posting on internet forums, I like to be as candid as possible. Beating around the bush isn't my style.

[wethepeople]

Cutting Time Walk from UW Fish has ought to be one of the biggest mistakes you can do when altering your list. The card at it's worst will cantrip, and give you an additional land-drop. However, in a deck like this, you are able to do far more than that, and abuse Walk by getting an additional attack phase, and play additional disruption.

I have begun to lose interest in this thread due to it's more recent discussions on completely unecessary topics, and lists that appear to have recieved no thought whatsoever when being created.

I personally think that the entire UW Fish deck needs to be re-visited, for Future Sight will be presenting several significant changes to our format. I have another list that I have been playing lately, however, it is too early to decide whether or not it is optimal, because FS isn't legal just yet.

[Tiki Walker]

The reason i play 3 brainstorm is, brainstorm is not a drawer, it just replace a 1-3 bad card with 1-3 good card (Silly isn't it)
i subtitute it with a creature or another instant spell.

Silly? Please consider that with each brainstorm drawn in the course of a game, each one of them will give you more Options, provided you use them wisely and not just casting them blindly when you actually do not  need to. Options to fix your hand, options to find more relevant cards from your library to advance or defend your board position, options to advance your overall strategy and game plan; for instance.

You mentioned that each brainstorm is likely to exchange only 1-3 bad cards from your hand for 1-3 good cards from the top of your library; but isn't it good that at least you have the option to do that instead of having no options at all because you play with less brainstorm?

And, unless you designed your deck in a suboptimal way; there should not be any "Bad Cards", some cards are more relevant to solve your current problem, but the other cards are going to be useful maybe at a later time as the game progresses. That is also one of the reasons why you want to have access to more options.

Moreover, your deck contains already a healthy amount of Fetch lands, so you should be able to take advantage whenever you cast brainstorm, followed with any Fetch activation.

Time walk is a great card, sure it is! But i think in my version i don't need a sorcery card. i need another spell solution or creature. with 21 mana i almost find my land is between 2-3 (i don't know why). so, if it countered it's time walk myself 

Time Walk is not just a mere Sorcery spell. It allows the caster to circumvent the basic rule of any normal Magic games. 1 turn for each player. Having access to extra turns instead of the 1 turn allowed for each player will give you: 1 more chance to reuse your complete mana and add at least 1 more mana to the existing ones (land drop), 1 more access to a card off the top of your library, 1 more chance to attack your opponent, 1 more chance to reuse whatever abilities your permanents have.

All for a very cheap casting cost, and the sorcery is blue, arguably the strongest color for T1 decks. Along with Ancestral Recall and Timetwister, this card is among the first to be restricted for good reasons.

I would like to argue that you have the option to access more solution spells or creatures if you successfully cast the Time Walk.

I do not quite comprehend on your complaints regarding your mana... I counted only 20, not 21. What is it about the mana that you consider as a problem? Too many? Too few? As far as I know Fish decks like your build is not designed to parade out a lot of mana, anyway.

If you are afraid to have the Time Walk countered, then prepare your assets before casting the Time Walk. Fix you hand with several counters, fix also your mana in play, press the opponent's mana using Null Rod and land destructions; anything. Time Walk is a bomb, and in your deck if it is successfully casted, it will give you a good advantage. Of course you should prepare yourself to defend it, do not just blindly cast it. 

Ninja is a great card too. i almost paly it in 2nd turn. may be i play it wrong? because someone told me that ninja is play only if my hand is near empty. i like ninja because it help me to face Enginereed Explosive. in my meta EE always MD in opponent deck.

ow BTW, which sideboard should i pick if i face Control slaver and how to play it?
Thx 

If Ninja can stick in play and beats, it is great, I agree. Whether it is correct or no playing it on the 2nd turn, it depends on some more information. For example, what type of deck are you facing at the time. Does it pack a lot of anti creatures that can deal with the Ninja effectively? Can you protect your Ninja at that time, maybe with daze, for example? You should try to find out more through play testing sessions with decks that you are likely to encounter in your tournament. It will give you more experience on when is the best time to play your Ninja. There are no absolute rules for all decks. Play test to learn your match ups, your mistakes.

On certain situations, it is good to rush out your Ninja and not waiting until your hand is almost depleted. Other times, you have to make some preparations prior to playing out the Ninja...It depends on a lot of things, that's why it's better for you to learn these things yourself by play test sessions.

Sideboard for Control Slaver match up?  Maybe the 4th Null Rod should come in from the sideboard  ... Oh, and honestly, I tend to think that those 3 Stormscape Apprentices are not going to be a lot useful for this particular match up... You might want to replace them with more relevant spells...

Thank you, talk to you later.

[Warden]

Ninja is a great card too. i almost paly it in 2nd turn. may be i play it wrong? because someone told me that ninja is play only if my hand is near empty. i like ninja because it help me to face Enginereed Explosive. in my meta EE always MD in opponent deck.

ow BTW, which sideboard should i pick if i face Control slaver and how to play it?
Thx 

Sideboard for Control Slaver match up?  Maybe the 4th Null Rod should come in from the sideboard  ... Oh, and honestly, I tend to think that those 3 Stormscape Apprentices are not going to be a lot useful for this particular match up... You might want to replace them with more relevant spells...

Has anyone tried Rootwater Theif for Control (Slaver, etc) decks? You could knock out the key components they need.
Same could be true for Gifts, knocking out ETW, Gifts itself (if they run 1 then it really works), Y.Will, etc

Worse come to worse, you can skim through their entire deck and see what they're running

I know its committing mana when you could be droppin guys but i feel that if he gets in early, he could just rip apart control and purhaps combo (1-3 SB?)

----just an idea for you guys

[wethepeople]

I doubt that we really need to worry about Control Slaver right now, because there will be decks that are far too fast for it, which will cause less people to play it. CS actually can be one of your best matchups, if you play it correctly.  There is no necessary demand for additional modifications to be made to the list, main deck at that.

Rootwater Thief is very slow- it requires one turn to surpass summoning sickness, another to deal damage, as well as to pay more to get to use a single Extract-ability. This would rarely be fast enough to even be relevant to the combo-playing opponent, because by the time you got it going it'll already be your attack phase, turn three.

Those of you who even consider cutting Null Rod (or Chalice, for that matter), or Time Walk from the deck should atleast take the time to read the Primer to teach you why this would be such a terrible decision. Right now, assuming that Future Sight is legal, I would run four Null Rods main. I am currently testing True Believers MD, as well as a few other anti-Combo spells, because Pact of Negation will surely cause decks of the like to be much more widely played in Vintage.

[A.-1.]

Resolving multiple Rootwater activations/Extracts can be back breaking versus a deck running a few win conditions, but if Empty the Warrens, Tendrils of Agony, etc. is in their hand it's absolutely useless. Any competent player can still win after having Yawg Will or one of their win conditions removed. In my opinion, if you are that worried about the Slaver matchup you should run Icatian Javelineer and/or Seal of Cleansing. And versus Gifts you should consider True Believer and/or Orim's Chant.

[uwfish2000]

i think Rootwater thief not that good. You can remove card from his/her library not in his/her hand.

@wethepeople: it's ok if you lose interest, but i'm a player who want to learn anything from UW Fish. So i can be a UW Fish master Like anyone on this thread.

i would thanx to Dave, Jeff, Stamford, webster. Because off you all yesterday i win the tournament. But again i break the rules.
I built my version because there a lot of "Fish" (if i can say).

This is which i play yesterday:

Creatures (16)
3   Savannah Lions
1   Isamaru, Hound of Konda   
3   Jotun Grunt   
3   Kataki, War's Wage   
4   Meddling Mage   
2   Ninja of the Deep Hours

Spells (21)
1   Ancestral Recall
4   Brainstorm
3   Daze
4   Force of Will
3   Stifle   
2   Echoing Truth
3   Swords to Plowshares   
1   Time Walk   

Artifacts (5)
2   Null Rod   
1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Pearl

Lands (18)
4   Flooded Strand   
3   Island   
2   Plains   
1   Polluted Delta   
1   Strip Mine
3   Tundra   
3   Wasteland   
1   Windswept Heath
   
Sideboard  (15 cards)
2   Azorius Guildmage
1   Jotun Grunt   
1   Kataki, War's Wage   
1   Ronom Unicorn
1   Kami of Ancient Law
1   Echoing Truth   
1   Sword to Plowshares
1   Stifle
1   Null Rod
2   Disencant
3   Umezawa's Jitte

This is my result :
1. Vs Burn 2-0
2. Vs Control Slaver 2-1
3. Vs MUD 2-1
4. Vs Bwg Hate? 2-0

Vs Control Slaver And MUD I have A very2 damn Luck. Last year i never win against these deck.

against Bwg hate I never win on test deck. He is my friend but on final i have to win

Round 1:
1st turn i drop Windsweapt done. He drop Windsweapt too, done. i play meddling mage naming River Boa. he play dark confidant done. i drop wasteland target bayou, cast Time Walk done. I play stripmine target scrubland, cast jotun grunt done. soon and so far i win the game.

1 - 0
SB : -4 Force of Will,-3 Daze,-2 Null Rod,-1 Echoing Truth,+3 Jitte,+1 Ronom,+1 Kami of Ancient Law,+1 Jotun,+1 STP,+1 Stifle,+2 Azorius guildmage

Round 2:
he play duress, discard STP, Play mox jet cast Pithing needle naming Wasteland. i cast Isamaru , done. He cast Riverboa done. i play Kataki, done. End my turn he Vampiric tutor something. upkeep he draw and forgot to pay kataki. so he sacrifice mox and pithing. he cast night wishper, done. i play mox sapphire cast meddling mage naming negator, isamaru and kataki attack he block kataki and river boa can't regenerate. he play demonic Tutor cast black lotus. in play there meddling mage and jotun, attack and his life 4 more left. sacrifice black lotus cast Pernicious deed and sacrifice on 2 and i stifle.

2-0

Time walk is realy strong. Thanx to all. Next Monday will be a tournament again. i hope i can win again.
Thx to read my post.

[Everrid1234]

What do you think about Orim's Chant now?
Since ETW is on the rise it doesn't have this deep impact on stormcombo anymore.
Maybe 3 Chant in SB should be changed into 2 Chant-1 Stifle-1 Echoing Truth and maybe cut a Disenchant/Seal for the additional Echoing Truth.

My current deck looks like this (loses to manaless Ichorid):

Creatures (16)
4   Icatian Javelineers
3   Jotun Grunt   
3   Kataki, War's Wage   
4   Meddling Mage   
3   Ninja of the Deep Hours

Spells (21)
1   Ancestral Recall
4   Brainstorm
3   Daze
4   Force of Will
3   Stifle   
2   Swords to Plowshares
1   Echoing Truth 
1   Time Walk   

Artifacts (5)
3   Null Rod   
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Pearl

Lands (18)
4   Flooded Strand   
2   Island   
2   Plains   
1   Polluted Delta   
1   Strip Mine
3   Tundra   
4   Wasteland   
1   Windswept Heath
   
Sideboard  (15 cards)
2   True Believer (regarding it's more then Mage on Tendrils)
2   Orim's Chant
1   Jotun Grunt   
2   Energy Flux
1   Echoing Truth   
1   Null Rod
1   Disencant
2   Seal of Cleansing
3   Umezawa's Jitte

[Warden]

Sideboard  (15 cards)
2   Azorius Guildmage
1   Jotun Grunt   
1   Kataki, War's Wage   
1   Ronom Unicorn
1   Kami of Ancient Law
1   Echoing Truth   
1   Sword to Plowshares
1   Stifle
1   Null Rod
2   Disencant
3   Umezawa's Jitte

Uwfish2000, congratulations on the win. I like the games you listed--total massacres.
I have to ask a quick question about your sideboard, though. What matchups/deck scenario are you putting in Azorius Guildmage for, and what's she replacing? I like the 2x but I'm just curious.

Hello, and welcome to The Mana Drain!  While we appreciate new users contributing to strategy discussions, the site rules require that all posts to the boards be free of netspeak abbreviations and written in a way that makes them easy to read.  Please familiarize yourself with the TMD rules to avoid this problem in the future.  We look forward to your future contributions.  -DA

[wethepeople]

i think Rootwater thief not that good. You can remove card from his/her library not in his/her hand.

@wethepeople: it's ok if you lose interest, but i'm a player who want to learn anything from UW Fish. So i can be a UW Fish master Like anyone on this thread..

First off, you are stating exactly what A-1 said in the post above. That also is a problem with Rootwater Thief, but the fact that it has such a great mana-requirement, and so much time, is the reason why I personally think it is such a bad card.

Secondly, I can't seem to understand why you would even respond to that statement I made, because it had no relevance to you at all.

Everrid, I find your disclaimer concerning Ichorid rather funny, because just recently I spoke to you via MWS about this problem. I tried convincing you that Mana-Less Ichorid will in fact be a difficult matchup for this deck, and it will soon be very important to prepare for the deck (once Future Sight is released). If however you want to continue to ignore my friendly-suggestion, I am not stopping you from doing so.

My thought's on Orim's Chant:

Once Future Sight is released, that will be the worst card you can board in versus Combo. Pact of Negation is practically made to answer Chant, so it is best that a different card is sideboarded in this matchup. Stifle is even worse.

I myself have been testing four Null Rods main, as well as 2-3 True Believers/Rule of Laws/Chalice of the Voids, to bring in post-board. Children of Korlis may need to be run in place of Savannah Lions to try and keep you alive, because it is obvious that we will be seeing Tendrils of Agony quite a bit, from now on.

If you are worried about Empty the Warrens, which you should be, cut Swords to Plowshares, and run additional Echoing Truths in their slot. StP is terrible now, and only comes to use in the mirror, because ETW has replaced "the big man". This also can help you when that massive Sutoured Ghoul is re-animated, but doesn't give them 20+ life.

Stifle isn't nearly as good as Daze in here. Turn one, you generally want to lay a 1CC creature-spell, so you can take full advantage of your attack phase. Stifle forces you to sit and wait until they do something, which isn't a smart thing to do in an aggressive deck like this. Daze however does just the opposite, and lets you cast 1CC creatures, Daze, and then repeat the following turn.

[Warden]

...Mana-Less Ichorid will in fact be a difficult matchup for this deck, and it will soon be very important to prepare for the deck (once Future Sight is released)

My thought's on Orim's Chant:

Once Future Sight is released, that will be the worst card you can board in versus Combo. Pact of Negation is practically made to answer Chant, so it is best that a different card is sideboarded in this matchup. Stifle is even worse.

I myself have been testing four Null Rods main, as well as 2-3 True Believers/Rule of Laws/Chalice of the Voids, to bring in post-board. Children of Korlis may need to be run in place of Savannah Lions to try and keep you alive, because it is obvious that we will be seeing Tendrils of Agony quite a bit, from now on.

If you are worried about Empty the Warrens, which you should be, cut Swords to Plowshares, and run additional Echoing Truths in their slot. StP is terrible now, and only comes to use in the mirror, because ETW has replaced "the big man". This also can help you when that massive Sutoured Ghoul is re-animated, but doesn't give them 20+ life.

*Edited
-I try to like Children of Korilis but its greatly compromising Fish being deemed "Aggro" (aggressive/fast paced) to having the deck be, well, "Fish in a bucket"
-Personally I feel Ichorid and Gifts will be out in big numbers. Ichorid is just terribly fast, especially if they have the bazaars (of baghdad) out turn 1 (and they will mulligan down until they get one)
-Gifts will probably fool around with Pact of Negation but i dont see at as the "end all" to Orim's Chant
You can counter their Pact of Negation . OR you can still play Orim's Chant AND it still has a high probability to resolve. Gifts isnt gaurenteed to run Pact of Negation...last i heard, their Decklist was full to begin with
Not to mention Blue-elemental-blast can shoot down Pact of Negation as well (seemingly valid SB [sideboard] option for control/combo decks anyway)

Swords to Plowshares "swords" < Echoing Truth "E.Truth"
You need spot removal and bounce. Sautured Ghoul (ichorid) and Goblin Welder (deck that has anything to do with artifacts) mush be shut down immediately
Id personally go both spot removal and "bounce" (removal) but there's no way unless....

You make a Dog+Cat (Savannah Lions + Isamaru, "Hound") build with some Silver Bullets (1x of cards that are used in specific situations). It may make the most sense
Mystical Tutor + Merchant Scroll's + the already present Brainstorms for -----------> E.Truth/Swords/Bounce (removal spells) to beat the current threat

Here again, your post requires substantial editing for a reader to understand it without having to guess at the meaning of obtuse abbreviations, irregular formatting, and numerous misspellings.  Please make your posts easier to read going forward.  -DA
*Has since been edited

[wethepeople]

...Mana-Less Ichorid will in fact be a difficult matchup for this deck, and it will soon be very important to prepare for the deck (once Future Sight is released)

My thought's on Orim's Chant:

Once Future Sight is released, that will be the worst card you can board in versus Combo. Pact of Negation is practically made to answer Chant, so it is best that a different card is sideboarded in this matchup. Stifle is even worse.

I myself have been testing four Null Rods main, as well as 2-3 True Believers/Rule of Laws/Chalice of the Voids, to bring in post-board. Children of Korlis may need to be run in place of Savannah Lions to try and keep you alive, because it is obvious that we will be seeing Tendrils of Agony quite a bit, from now on.

If you are worried about Empty the Warrens, which you should be, cut Swords to Plowshares, and run additional Echoing Truths in their slot. StP is terrible now, and only comes to use in the mirror, because ETW has replaced "the big man". This also can help you when that massive Sutoured Ghoul is re-animated, but doesn't give them 20+ life.

-I try to like Children but its greatly compromising Fish being Aggro to having the deck be, well, "Fish in a bucket"
-Personally I feel Ichorid and Gifts will be out in big #'s. Ichorid is just terribly fast, esp. if they have the bazaars out turn 1 (and they will mulligan down until they get one)
-Gifts will probably fool around with Pact but i dont see at as the "end all" to Chant
You can counter their Pact. OR you can still play chant AND it still has a high probability to resolve. Gifts isnt gaurenteed to run Pact...last i heard, their Decklist was packed
Not to mention BEB can shoot down Pact as well (seemingly valid SB option for control/combo decks anyway)

Swords < E.Truth
You need spot removal and bounce. Ghoul (ichorid) and Welder (anything with artifacts) mush be shut down immediately
Id personally go both spot n bounce but there's no way unless....

You make a Dog+Cat build with some Silver Bullets. It may make the most sense
Mystical Tutor + Merchant Scroll's + the already present Brainstorms for -----------> E.Truth/Swords/Bounce to beat the current threat (1-2x)

-my thoughts. I know itll probably be ripped to shreds, tell me if im wrong n why

I can't understand why everyone makes it sound like Pact of Negation is what we are trying to counter. Pact is just something that makes the deck stronger, and more-difficult to stop. Trying to cast Orim's Chant, and hoping to Force their Pact (which requires a blue spell, in addition) is far too difficult. This is why I am proposing running a different card to fight Combo, that can be played on our turn, making it nearly-impossible to counter via Pact of Negation.

I really wish that I could use Savannah Lions still, but I am afraid that we may need to run Children of Korlis. I understand that a faster clock that will win the game faster is what this deck wants, but Ichorid, and Tendrils of Agony are likely to prevent you from ever reaching that point. This is where Children of Korlis comes in handy.

Another thing I forgot to mention about Echoing Truth, that does make it make it much better, is it's ability to dispose of the infi 2/2 Zombie tokens that Bridge from Below produces, in Ichorid. Like Empty the Warrens, these tokens reach the board fairly-quickly, in large quantities. However, they also can be answered by a single E-Truth.

Trying to use silver bullets in UW Fish decreases the strength in one of the deck's best qualities- consistency. I have tried it before with Trinket Mage, and a toolbelt that could answer various things, however it played out as an entirely different deck. Trinket Mage may be playable right now, because of it's ability to get Tormod's Crypt, and Pithing Needle (which do in fact ruin Ichorid), as well as Spellbombs, and Chalice of the Void (for Combo). The only problem I see with this idea is that Trinket Mage is that it's bit slow, because it doesn't usually hit the board until turn 2-3, and is a nice Drain-target for your opponent.

[uwfish2000]

Sideboard  (15 cards)
2   Azorius Guildmage
1   Jotun Grunt   
1   Kataki, War's Wage   
1   Ronom Unicorn
1   Kami of Ancient Law
1   Echoing Truth   
1   Sword to Plowshares
1   Stifle
1   Null Rod
2   Disencant
3   Umezawa's Jitte

uwfish2000 congrats on the win. I like the games u listed...total massacres.
I gotta ask a quick q about your SB though. What matchups/deck scenario u putting in Azorius Guildmage for and whats she replacing? I like the 2x but im just curious

if i knew that opponent have massacre, then i play only 2 creatures in play.
Azorius is for control slaver,Pernicious Deed, EE ,and Fetchland. Replacing jotun grunt. In my experience Jotun grunt is a delicious meat for Duplicant.

@ wethepeople : I'm Sorry... it's my first time to talk to other people around the world. I'm Happy because i have a friend that discussing about UW Fish. last year i have a friend that i can discussing with. Now i'm just alone.
Thx

[Warden]

it's ashame because there's not a cheaper cc card that does this:

Washout (invasion blue sorc.)
3U
Return all permanents of the color of your choice to their owners' hands

Or any "Hibernation" of the color of your choice. If only there was a black/red hibernation --- wouldnt that be somethin?

Washout is way too slow but thats basically what this deck needs 3-4x of
E.truth does the bouncing to an extent (token wise) but misses out on a "mass bounce" Hibernation gives.

E.Truth for now until we get wizards to make a hibernation for black/red
Again, please take the time to ensure that your posts are written at an appropriate level of English proficiency.  -DA
*Edit: I made it betterto read -- sorry if the language wasnt up to par mod's 

[wethepeople]

it's ashame because there's not a cheaper cc card that does this:

Washout (invasion blue sorc.)
3U
Return all permanents of the color of your choice to their owners' hands

Or any "Hibernation" of the color of your choice. If only there was a black/red hibernation --- wouldnt that be somethin?

Washout is way too slow but thats basically what this deck needs 3-4x of
E.truth does the bouncing to an extent (token wise) but misses out on a "mass bounce" Hibernation gives.

E.Truth for now until we get wizards to make a hibernation for black/red

Why exactly do you want "Mass Bounce"? Aside from Goblin/Zombie tokens, what else is there on the board that is really a problem? In the mirror, Washout would be terrible because it would bounce all of your creatures as well. Echoing Truth however can be more precise, and return just one permanent. It is also a Sorcery, which makes it much worse, because it ruins the ability to bounce your opponent's creatures during the Combat phases.

Echoing Truth is able to get return artifacts, which often times helps quite a bit in the Stax matchup.

[Warden]

Why exactly do you want "Mass Bounce"? Aside from Goblin/Zombie tokens, what else is there on the board that is really a problem? In the mirror, Washout would be terrible because it would bounce all of your creatures as well. Echoing Truth however can be more precise, and return just one permanent. It is also a Sorcery, which makes it much worse, because it ruins the ability to bounce your opponent's creatures during the Combat phases.

Echoing Truth is able to get return artifacts, which often times helps quite a bit in the Stax matchup.

im sorry, i should have been clearer. The type of "bounce" aka removal of a color I feel is needed. Im not saying "use washout" but I love the effect it does. Echoing Truth does a nice job at removing the target and all copies (same name) but i feel there is a need for instant-speed color bouncing as well. The best example I know of is washout --- I was saying before that it's a shame Wizards didnt make a Hibernation (instant 3cc mass green bounce) for other colors or for a "you pick the color".

Sorry if that confused ya...What I was trying to say is that there shouldnt be such a reliance on Echoing truth. Is there another instant-speed removal/bounce?
And aside from tokens, I'm talking about goblins, green critters, and things you can't target (mongooses, etc.)

[SimonCopp]

Hey there, i'd like y'all to take a look at my Fish list and offer advice.

3 Isamaru
3 Savannah Lions
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Aven Mindcensor

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Brainstorm
3 Echoing Truth
4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
1 Morningtide

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
3 Null Rod

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:

4 Kataki
2 Morningtide
4 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Seal Of Cleansing
3 Orim's Chant

The Card Choices

Isamaru, Savannah Lions, Meddling Mage, and Jotun Grunt - The usual suspects provide solid beats and disruption

Aven Mindcensor - I picked this guy because his ability to disrupt tutoring is interesting. He is quite unweildy though. Feedback needed on this guy.

Mystical Tutor - To find that Time Walk to win, Ancestral/Brainstorm to consolidate/recommit from Massacre or Truth/Tide to deal with Ichorid threats.

Ancestral, Time Walk - INSANEO

Brainstorm - Card selection is just too good to pass up.

Echoing Truth - To deal with huge guys and Zombie armies.

Force Of Will, Daze, Stifle - Disruption and protection

Morningtide - To tutor up in event of Ichorid. It can sometimes win a game by preventing an insaneo Will.

Artifact mana and Null Rods - Accelerants and disruption.

I have some questions.

Is Gush playable in this deck? (Question of The Day  )
Are there more viable choices then Mindcensor?
Should the Morningtide be a Swords To Plowshares, Honour The Fallen or something else?

Thank you kindly in advance

Simon Copp