UW FISH: Teh Primer!

[Dxfiler]

Hey there, i'd like y'all to take a look at my Fish list and offer advice.

3 Isamaru
3 Savannah Lions
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Aven Mindcensor

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Brainstorm
3 Echoing Truth
4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
1 Morningtide

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
3 Null Rod

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:

4 Kataki
2 Morningtide
4 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Seal Of Cleansing
3 Orim's Chant

Hi Simon.  Welcome to the thread   I haven't posted in here in a while because I wasn't sure if UW fish could survive all the new changes the format has seen in the past 1-2 months.  After mulling it over for quite a while, I'm pretty sure the deck is still viable and a decent contender.  The new list I have is very close to the list you just posted, so I'm going to post my list and go over the differences between ours.

UW Fish version 10,123.5 :p

2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Savannah Lions
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki, War's Wage

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 misdirection
3 Null Rod

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Echoing Truth
3 Swords to Plowshares

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 windswept heath

Sideboard:
3 Seal of Cleansing
1 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Orim's Chant
4 Leyline of The Void
2 Serum Powder
2 Threads of Disloyalty

Probably the first thing that long time viewers of this thread will immediately notice is the complete lack of stifles.  I just don't think they are very good right now.  Combo just plays around it until they are ready to go off and it's just a bump in the road to ichorid and bomberman.  The stifle spot got taken by my old friend swords to plowshares.  With Gush unrestricted, GAT is once again a deck... a really good deck.  Despite what many would claim, GAT is a very winnable matchup.  I tested against classic GAT just for fun a while back and was going about 50/50 against it.  Every game I won involved swords to plowshares.  Also, while on the subject of GAT... counter the fastbond at all cost :p  If you counter fastbond, they turn into bad fish.  They have nothing to abuse and gush becomes a slightly better night's whisper instead of the best cantrip on the planet. 

While Simon has a maindeck plan against ichorid of mystical tutor for morningtide, I have decided to take the same route I always did against ichorid:

Let them win game one.

This strategy is employed by many decks and when you have a serum/leyline board, it's fine to drop the first game.  Ichorid simply cannot beat a leyline with counter backup.  This is why the deck in its most powerful form to date still isn't winning many tourneys, although it does dent many top 8's.  I prefer leyline/serum powder to morningtide or honor the fallen because I want to be able to use Jotun Grunt.  If my graveyard is still online grunt should be easily able to get in at least 2 swings.  If both graveyards are offline because of morningtide and honor the fallen, Grunt gets no swings :p  If you drop leyline but don't have counter backup, the pressure that grunt and other creatures provides is still usually enough to win before they can answer your leyline.  Losing the ability to attack with Grunt takes away too much pressure and usually gives them ample time to answer leyline and combo off. For this match I'm currently siding out 3 rods and 3 plows for 2 powder and 4 leyline.  I haven't seen enough ichorid to warrant 4 powder 4 leyline in the board and that's why I have room for 2 threads.  I don't side out echoing truth because it's solid against bridge from below and the random 'dread return into large man' that the deck can conjure up.  I'd prefer to not have to cast echoing truth in this match because if I'm casting echoing truth I'm usually just delaying the inevitable.  Leyline is and will always be your best weapon to fight this deck.

The mana is the same it's always been for me.  I guess you could cut the windswept heath and go down to 6 fetches and back up to 4 wastelands, but I always liked having the fetches match my actual plains/island count. 

I've noticed a resurgence in Stax to battle gat, and stax has always been a pretty good match... if you keep in maindeck kataki.  If you cut it then you're in for a much rougher game 1 that is still winnable, but the percentages go way down.  I only have 2 kataki now as opposed to 3, but I find that to be plenty maindeck.  I know kataki is going the way of the do-do (extinct :p) for many fish players and being replaced by aven mindcensor.  I don't think the bird guy fits in traditional UW very well.  If you run null rods you don't run a full complement of moxen... if you don't run a full complement of moxen then you can't maximize the effectiveness of dropping this guy as quickly as possible.  Birdy is not too good late game either, where Kataki is good to great at almost every stage of the game.

The rest of my maindeck doesn't really need much explanation.  I'll say that I've been unhappy with meddling mage as of late, but I don't think you can cut it.  The problem with mage is that you can have the perfect read on your opponent and name the problem card, but they'll just topdeck another problem card to kill you with.  There are too many silver bullets you want to name with a meddling mage that can just ruin your day.  This problem comes up most with combo. 

Consider this scenario that I've had at least 20 times:

You're in game 2 and on the play against tendrils combo.  You can lead with a turn mox/land/meddling mage or pass with brainstorm mana up.  You don't have a force of will in hand.  If you run out the mage, you probably name yawgmoth's will or a kill condition... you could even name massacre but then you're pants are completely down for their turn 1.  You could name any of the above cards and be right and still die to a god draw, or you could hold-off on the meddling mage and just brainstorm on their turn to decrease the odds of dying on turn 1 (by drawing into force of will or daze) but not having any immediate pressure on the board that a turn 1 mage would've given you.

It's these scenarios that make my head hurt because there isn't really always one play that's 100% right, and if you do the right play you could still easily lose if they just happen to have what they need despite your meddling mage name.  I know that combo is combo, and the reason combo wins alot of the time is because it just happens to get there with the exact combination of cards it needs at the exact right time, but the point of meddling mage is to make their life harder by completely shutting down paths to victory.  Old meddling mage did that all day long.  New meddling mage has some commitment issues. 

You name yawg will they can still ritual tendrils you out.  You name tendrils they can just yawg will and win.  You have two meddling mages out naming both of those and they can empty the warrens for 10,000 :p

I'm not saying cut meddling mage, I'm just saying that his stock has gone down and I'm looking for alternatives to him every day.  I haven't found one I like, but I'm pretty sure meddling mage is the worst creature in the deck at present time and may even be the worst card in the deck.  This is depressing watching myself type that considering how many matches the little bugger has won me in the good old days... 
I miss those days =(

Anyway, I think UW fish can still go toe to toe with most decks.  Bomberman was one of the tougher matches but it's definitely on the decline because of GAT.  I suspect GAT to run wild for 3 months tops before gush gets restricted AGAIN (seriously WOTC R&D needs a staff shake-up and FAST).  Ichorid is what ichorid will always be: the best game 1 deck in the format that can never finish well.  Tendrils/Flash combo are winnable matches that take a tremendous amount of good playing and luck on both sides to come out the victor.  I considered angel's grace for a while over the orim's chant spot but I find orim's chant to just be more effective most of the time.  While you can't lose the turn you cast angel's grace, it still gives them free reign to cast yawg will and setup the easy victory the next turn... and most of the time you won't get to see another turn because they'll have cast time walk after abusing will.  Also against Flash I don't believe angel's grace stops you from losing to 10 posion counters on the after the 'you can't lose the game' effect wears off.  So don't get poisoned :p

That's all I have for now.  I plan to play this deck again in the very near future.  I skipped the myriad tourneys this week because I wasn't thrilled with another completely new format dropping on my head out of the blue (B&R list was legal for these tourneys) so I chose to just sit out and watch what the results were.  Having no money was also a factor :p

The results I've seen so far do confirm what I believed all along: UW Fish still has plenty of game in it and the new B&R changes have helped the deck overall more than hurt it.  Good luck to all the fish players, I'll be keeping my eye on results : )

- Dave Feinstein

[zulander]

I think there are 2 creatures that need to be tested much more. Samurai of the Pale Curtain and True Believer. Both are 2 for 2/2 and help a TON in the combo matchup. The deck lsit I run is as follows :

Creatures : 21
4 Meddling Mage
4 Samurai
4 True Believer
3 Jotun
2 Kataki
4 Aven Mindcensor

Control : 11
4 FOW
3 daze
3 STP
1 MisD

Draw : 5
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral

Other : 5
4 Aether Vile
1 Timewalk

Mana : 18
1 Black Lotus
2 mox

3 Wasteland
1 Stripmine

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains

Side : 15
4 Stifle
4 Chalice
3 Seal of Cleansing
2 Chain of vapor
2 tormods crypt

I rely much more on creatures then most other versions of fish because they double as MD answers to combo. I personally think null rod was totally last year and combo just doesn't care anymore if play them. I have been wrong though, but I'd like people just to test out this very, very strange decklist.

[TopSecret]

Dave, I've also noticed Meddling Mages being rather lackluster recently,
given that I don't play straight UW fish of course.  :p

In addition to what you've said about there being too many bombs as of late,
there are an awful lot of bounce and wipe spells running around (at least at Myriad).

I'm currently looking for better creatures, too.
I'm not sure if you'd be willing to go the route of three drops; I'm assuming not.
For UW, it might be worth trying Samurai of the Pale Curtain.
Samurai helps against Flash Combo, Bomberman, and Ichorid... to an extent.
Adding in the third Kataki is an option, as well, since Stax may become more of a factor.
Against GAT and large creatures, Spurnmage Advocate or Mother of Runes may be interesting,
although they really don't beat for a lot.
Also, White Knight could always be useful against GAT... at least until they Berserk.

There's always Black Vise. :p

Good luck! :p

[zulander]

White knight doesn't stop dryiad, and none of the creatures UW fish runs are capable of stopping a zerked dryad/tog. Well unless you want to play crazy fish and add in a full set of moxen, and tinker/collosus. But that just seems bad lol.

[zeus-online]

...And even DSC might not be enough to stop a berserked dryad or 'Tog.

/Zeus

[Dxfiler]

...And even DSC might not be enough to stop a berserked dryad or 'Tog.
/Zeus

Last time I checked UW deck never ran DSC... not even the terrible versions. :p

@topsecret- I don't tink bouncing meddling mage is an issue, it's just the amount of threats aimed at it.

Samurai is a card I've never been a fan of.  I'm looking at it now when it's seemingly at it's best and I still honestly don't believe it's good enough.  Double white is something that if I'm going to comimitt to I'd want something more concrete as far as a spell stopper...

like true believer.  Although I'm still not ready to run this card either.  He was best against gifts... now er, no gifts :p 

I'm seriously considering going to wizard route with stormscapes and voidmage prodigy.  Stormscape apprentice PWNS dryads and togs.  The problem is to run those guys I'd have to cut lions and hounds   Meh,  it might be time.

Here's a wizard fish list that I think is pretty good:

4 Stormscape Apprentice
4 Daze
3 Ninja of the deep hours
2 Voidmage Prodigy
4 Meddling Mage
4 Brainstorm
2 Echoing Truth
3 Null Rod
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Stifle
1 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Orim's Chants
4 Leyline of The Void
2 Serum Powder
3 Kataki, War's Wage

This is basically the old UW wizard list run by Sergio Perez to a first place finish in a 75 person tourney in Spain only about 3 months ago.  I updated it to handle the current field and I think it has plenty of game.  Stormscape Apprentice over Sage of Epityr seems obvious with GAT running wild.  I'd like to fit plows main if possible.

The creatures seem right for this build.  Maybe one less ninja, one more voidmage.  The deck is like 32 blue cards so another Misdirection probably isn't a bad option either.

This is definitely more for the fish crowd that likes their creatures to do more than just beat for 2.  Every creature in here serves another function in addition to just straight attacking.

Stifle definitely belongs in this version, where regular UW with cats and dogs just doesn't have the space as it's more a 'direct threat' deck. 
This deck applies less direct pressure in beatings but the additional abilities on these creatures can definitely cause headaches in this meta.

So that's the alternative UW list I thought I'd bring up again.  I honestly don't know which one is better right now.  I remember there was a time when I wouldn't even consider the wizard list because the 'normal' uw I used was doing so well for me... but times have changed drastically since and I think the ninja/wizard version might rise up... like the mavs?  :p 

Stormscape Apprentice is no LeBron James, but we'll see if it can bring home the bacon.

I'll be testing both versions and try to do updates.

 Bye <3

- Dave Feinstein

[xaltair]

Hi!

I haven't really posted on this website in a long time. The truth is that I haven't played type 1 in over 2 years now, to be more specific my last type 1 tourney was on December 12th, 2005. At that time my rating was 1688 due to making top 8 at 3 of the last 6 type 1 tourneys I played. To make a long story short the deck that I've been playing before that gave me the mixed results and my 3 top 8ths has been U/R fish.

The point I'm trying to get to is that i have a 10 proxy, 3 power type 1 tourney coming up in 2 weeks and I believe that this is the best chance for me to come out of my self imposed "retirement" and play type 1 again. The problem is that I don't know exactly what the latest type 1 decks that most people play are as well as what changes I need to make to my type 1 fish deck. This is the only deck that I have and since it's been pretty good to me before I believe that with the right changes I have a good chance of making top 8 again. The tourney I'll be playing will have at least 50 players and almost all of the hardcore type 1 players.

Some of my questions regarding the new fish lists have to do with seeing that people play 4 Dazes maindeck now, also they play only 17-18 lands (my deck has 21) and they don't play standstill anymore? They also seem to be playing chalice of the void maindeck which again i'm not sure how this works in a fish decks since most of our plays are 1 to cast and 2 to cast.

My deck still has spiketail hatchling as well as cloud of faeries since i haven't changed it in the last 2 years, i'm wondering why people don't play that anymore? Also why do people play echoing truth as the bounce spell of choice instead of chain of vapor and why are people not running rack & ruin in the sideboard? (i'm aware that u/w can't really run it, but i was wondering if the u/r decks run it or not?).

Anyways, i'll be happy with any info I can receive since I'd like to change the deck to give me the best chance at the tourney in 2 weeks.

Thanks!

 

[MirariKnight]

Some of my questions regarding the new fish lists have to do with seeing that people play 4 Dazes maindeck now, also they play only 17-18 lands (my deck has 21) and they don't play standstill anymore? They also seem to be playing chalice of the void maindeck which again i'm not sure how this works in a fish decks since most of our plays are 1 to cast and 2 to cast.

Brainstorm replaces Standstill and it is much faster and just better overall. Null Rod is played more than Chalice but Chalice can be set at 0 to stop moxen and such besides 1 or 2, although I don't think its that great.

My deck still has spiketail hatchling as well as cloud of faeries since i haven't changed it in the last 2 years, i'm wondering why people don't play that anymore? Also why do people play echoing truth as the bounce spell of choice instead of chain of vapor and why are people not running rack & ruin in the sideboard? (i'm aware that u/w can't really run it, but i was wondering if the u/r decks run it or not?).

Spiketail and Cloud just dont do as mcuh compared to the creatures we have now. Look at Jotun Grunt for example, a much better 2 drop than Cloud of Faeries, meanwhile Meddling Mage is similar to Spiketail but is a lot better overall. Echoing Truth is run for Empty The Warrens combo mainly, because it can bounce all their tokens.

[Harlequin]

Have people been considering Maindeck (or sideboard perhapse) Extract?  I think the card is really good right now, and spesifically good in WU fish to shore up some problem matches:

GAT - Extract Fastbond.  They are going to find it sooner or later, and taking it out makes them be Bad_Beats.dec

Bomberman - Extracting Lotus early is normally good, but if you've got nullrods out then this is less than optimal.  The arn't generally going for the combo-out against fish anyway - I guess my point is that it is not 100% dead.

Flash - you can usually get something signifigant done with a turn 1 extract.  Pulling Guide doesn't work if they have bodysnatcher... but pulling kikijiki means that you basically only have to deal with a 6/6 and a 2/2 flyer?  again better than straight up loosing.

Doomsday, GushTendrils - eliminates the need to have MM nameing Will and/or Tendrils, (or desire in DD's case). 

Oath - when combined with StP, RFGing all thier creatures is certainly doable.

Ichorid, Stax, Fish -- All terrible... (although in stax you can take thier stripmine).

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Have people been considering Maindeck (or sideboard perhapse) Extract?  I think the card is really good right now, and spesifically good in WU fish to shore up some problem matches:

GAT - Extract Fastbond.  They are going to find it sooner or later, and taking it out makes them be Bad_Beats.dec

Only if the GAT player is really bad with his deck. Otherwise he'll be happy you wasted a card that could have been a counter for Gush and make a nice 5/5 Dryad that towers over your deck or just drop a Tog (which you can't successfully Swords any more because you wasted cards to cast stuff like Extract). Fastbond is great in GAT but only bad players play it as a Gush combo-deck. That's the beauty of GAT over GushTendrils, you don't have any keycard (well aside from Gush). For Fish to bear GAT it needs to find an answer to Gush, not Fastbond.
SB Extract against Flash seems not horrible, with the sad problem that your deck actually has trouble dealing with 6/6 beatdown on turn two if you haven't also drawn the StP. It does remove PoN from the equation pretty well, though.

[Harlequin]

I guess my point is that would you rather have to deal with 5/5 dryad or a 6/6 Hulk --- or loose the game spot-on right now, you get no more turns?

[zeus-online]

I'd have to agree with mon on this, extracting fastbond isn't going to be "good" "decent" or even have an "impact" in the match.

You'd be better off running extra disruption or removal...like StP or submerge.

I really think that extract is a bad card, there are almost no decks in vintage which looses to a single extract right now.....and relying on more then one copy of it to be effective seems like a recipe for disaster.

/Zeus

[Harlequin]

Is there a deck that looses to one null rod?  how about one daze?  one swords?

Using that logic, then no card is viable for fish, because the requirement is that a deck must loose to a single resolution of a card in order to be run.   Resolving extract on turn 1 basically garentees that you will have a turn 2, because you can remove the ability to go for the 'easy' win in most decks. 

To me, it seems like leading off with land, extract, holding a pocket daze is a great start to a winning game. 

[wethepeople]

Are there really any practical reasons to play Fish over Stax, and other true prison decks right now? In my day of playing UW, I often times questioned my choice of deck, always ignoring what was probably best because of personal bias. Now, with the rise of GAT, and other unquestionably fast Combo decks, there really is no excuse to play cards like Daze, and Savannah Lions over Sphere of Resistance, etc.

One attempt I made in search of optimizing the deck was the addition of Ancient Tomb. Tomb, or "@" as I begun to use as an abbreviation, let me use much more disruptive spells. It would play like Mishra's Workshop in the deck, and allow me to really capitalize on my first few turns. Unlike the standard Fish build, restricted to playing dirt-cheap spells that would incrementally disrupt my opponents gameplan, these Tomb-based lists were able to pump out cards that were more effective than the usual annoyance.

I've tested this version quite a bit, and it has been in the works since March. If anyone else is interested, I'd be glad to provide a list, and more info regarding the deck.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Is there a deck that looses to one null rod?  how about one daze?  one swords?

Using that logic, then no card is viable for fish, because the requirement is that a deck must loose to a single resolution of a card in order to be run.   Resolving extract on turn 1 basically garentees that you will have a turn 2, because you can remove the ability to go for the 'easy' win in most decks. 

To me, it seems like leading off with land, extract, holding a pocket daze is a great start to a winning game. 

a) there are decks (and especially draws) that do loose to a single Null Rod. b) The other difference is that with StP, Daze, etc you just traded against a card in his hand, limiting his current resources. With Extract you just gave up resources without influencing the current gamestate to deal with a threat that might never have come up in the first place.
Not only that, against many decks (pretty much all non-flash combo, actually) that Extract will NOT guarantee you a second turn at all. Duress for example usually does, though.

Are there really any practical reasons to play Fish over Stax, and other true prison decks right now? In my day of playing UW, I often times questioned my choice of deck, always ignoring what was probably best because of personal bias. Now, with the rise of GAT, and other unquestionably fast Combo decks, there really is no excuse to play cards like Daze, and Savannah Lions over Sphere of Resistance, etc.

One attempt I made in search of optimizing the deck was the addition of Ancient Tomb. Tomb, or "@" as I began to use as an abbreviation, let me to use much more disruptive spells. It would play like Mishra's Workshop in the deck, and allow me to really capitalize on my first few turns. Unlike the standard Fish build, restricted to playing dirt-cheap spells that would incrementally disrupt my opponents gameplan, these Tomb-based lists were able to pump out cards that were more effective than the usual annoyance.

I've tested this version quite a bit, and it has been in the works since March. If anyone else is interested, I'd be glad to provide a list, and more info regarding the deck.

I would assume that Fish's Flash (on the draw) and Stax matchups (if you run Kataki) are better than Stax's. That might be a reason to run it.

As for the Ancient Tomb build, this sounds like an interesting direction to take the deck in, especially with the arrival of Mindcensor. And being able to run 2Sphere sounds quite good vs GAT, as do lots of turn 1 Null Rods. And while I won't touch it (I don't think I'll be running a deck without 4 Gush in the near future and I hate running lots of small creatures anyway), I'd surely be interested to hear more about it. The more non-turn1/2-combo decks are viable, the happier I am.

[jeffthefob]

I haven't touched u/w Fish in a while since FS because of Ichorid.  But after bombing out with Ichorid roughly a month ago (and walking in my graduation), I am probably going back to some sort of Fish build in the next couple power tourneys in CA.

Dxfiler:
Edit: nevermind.  I missed the small part where you talk about mindcensor.  Regardless, I think mindcensor itself can wins games and should be taken into consideration.  Maybe replacing Kataki isn't the way, but... somehow ^^

Also, I have a question about Leyline plan, but maybe this belong in the other thread.  When you play u/w/b Fish, even if you don't start with Leyline in hand, do you find yourself casting it in time?

It is time to prove Fish is a true contender ^_^

[LSD/Cruise]

I still believe that Fish is still very strong, and like always, must adapt with the new metagame changes. I think Wizard Fish is a very strong approach right now, and the Ninja/Jotun Grunt synergy is just nuts. Right now, I think Feinstein's list is really strong right now at fighting Dryads. Ichorid, however, is a problem.  Serum Powder + Leyline i just awesome. I however, believe that Mystical Tutor for Honor the Fallen is techy. Yes, it's narrow, but Morning Tide kinda sucks.... and Grunt does what Morning Tide does anyway.

[sushicutta]

What do you think about an UW Fish-Madness Hybrid made by sushicutta

Thats the deck i'm running. Best Place was 8th at an 128er Vintage Tournament.

It's a budget build, cause i dont own power cards ;(

// 20 Creatures

4 Trickster Mage (realy a potential fishguy i think)
4 Meddling Mage
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Aquamoeba
2 wonder

// 20 Spells

4 Force of Will
3 Null Rod
3 Daze
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Deep Analysis
2 Compulsion
2 Stifle
1 Gush

// 20 Lands

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Windswept Heath
1 Strip Mine
1 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of The Void
3 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Waterfront Bouncer
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Exalted Angel
1 Stifle
1 Swords to Plowshares

[Soon-Man]

I have read most of the pages in this thread and I think there is some great insight in here. Using that and my own experience I made what I think is a kind weird list. I'll post if up and feed back would be appreciated. I'll give reasons I play ever card in the deck and why I chose not to play with other cards.

Lands:19
4 Flooded Stand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Island
1 Plains

Creatures:16
4 Meddling Mage
4 Savannah Lions
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Icatian Javeliners
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Artifacts:6
3 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl

Spells/Enchantments:19
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
3 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

Side Baord:15
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 True Believer
3 Echoing Truth
2 Pithing Needle
2 Kataki, War's Wage


Mana Base: Ok, this is pretty simple. My cards are UW so I play lands that Produce U and/or W. Between 4 searches, 4 duals, 3 basics, 2 moxes and Lotus I have never found mana screw to be a problem.

Wasteland/Strip Mine: Bazaar, Library, Academy, Factory, ect, are all huge pains in the ass. They need to go.......yeah, pretty simple.

Meddling Mage: Again, this is simple. Its a UW deck and he is a really good UW creature that can stop your opponent from playing key cards(duh).

Savannah Lions: Every game you pretty much need a solid one drop to get things going and to back up your standstill/null rod. Originally I played 2 of these. Then after testing I realized that I wasn't drawing into them nearly enough.  Also in the late games sometimes I find that I am able to stop my opponent from winning, but I am not able to win myself because I don't have a creature down. Adding 2 more Lions was as much to have a better chance at open handing a 2 power 1 drop as it was just to increase the chance of drawing creatures in general.

Isamaru: He is basically just Lions that doesn't die to dark blast. Everything I said about Lions applies to this. He is Legendary so I kept still just play 2 of him.

Javelineers: He takes out Bob, He takes out Welder, he even takes out Narcomoeba. If you are on the play he is great. He either takes out Bob/Welder before get a chance to be used or the sight of him will cause your opponent to not play Bob/Welder and waste removal on him so they can land their Bob/Welder. In game 1 he can be annoying vs Dredge because he can down a Narc and keep the other player from casting Dread Return or Chump and Damage on Stack kill a Narc. Neither of those is a particularly great play, but the point is that he isn't a dead card vs Dredge. Now the thing is that on the draw and against decks that don't run Bob/Welder he is pretty much just Mogg Fanatic, but since this isn't exactly an aggressive red deck, that isn't really that good. So my thought is that something in the Board gets moved to the main board and he goes to the board to be used when you are on the draw against (once again) Bob/Welder. BTW, I think Echoing Truth is the card that would get moved in. Also, I know there is other good 1 toughness creatures, but Bob/Welder are the two that I personally see as the most dangerous and most worth mentioning 5 times.

Ninja: The Idea is that with Standstill out I can use him to draw a card without triggering Standstill. I am not sold though. After playing with him I really don't think he is that great. The plan is to have a creature or Factory out with standstill. My guys swing in and then I Ninja for one card. The problem is that he doesn't add pressure or decrease my clock. Having to bounce a 2 power creature for a 2 power creature and one card doesn't seem good enough. Now I have a guy in hand that I can't play until my opponent breaks standstill. Sure the one card is nice, but I think the fact that he doesn't add pressure makes me want to seek a more aggressive guy. Optimally I want to run an aggressive blue creature(if there is such a thing, lol). I think it should be blue so I can pitch it to FoW.

Force of Will: I could explain how this is very powerful card and why it's powerful. Somehow I think you know this already.

Standstill: The plan with this card is to have out a 2 power creature and then play it. Get in a couple of swings before your opponent breaks it and gives you 3 cards for your two mana. That or the opponent breaks it at right away and give you 3 cards for your 2 mana. No matter what happens it causes your opponent to make suboptimal plays. He either has to wait and then try make some crazy play the turn he breaks it in which case you have most likely drawn a counter(s) or you will draw one off the standstill. Or he will break it immediately by playing a spell that he didn't have to/want to at that point in time. If you don't have a creature down its still a good card. If you simply have nothing to do, playing it will give you something to do. Your opponent will either counter giving you one less counter to worry about or it will stick and force your opponent to give you 3 cards if they want to continue with their game plan. In my experience, Standstill is the corner stone of this deck.

Null Rod: Artifacts can't use activated abilities. That means no moxes, no mana crypt, no mana vault, no gridestone, no nothing. Yeah, it turns off your shit, but this deck only runs a 2 moxes and lotus, no huge loss.

Daze: I was actually thinking about replacing Daze. The first time I played the deck I didn't use my own build, so Daze was in it. Turns out that its a great card for buying an extra turn when a combo deck tries to go off first chance. Pretty much takes your opponents ability to tap out away once they have seen it. Its also pretty good vs Dredge. Dredge most of the time doesn't play mana, so when it tries to Dread Return you pretty much have a no draw back counter.

Stifle: Its time walk. your opponent tries to activate anything to start momentum they can't. Best use I have seen is on Fetch lands. They can't get the mana they need and will 90% of the time pass their turn/have nothing on their turn.

Swords: 1 mana, stop the threat. I figured having a weenie deck, giving your opponent life would mean you will loose the game, but not here. If you hit a darksteel they just tinkered for they get 11 life, but now they don't have tinker. They are pretty much out of steam. Your little guys will win eventually. And at one mana you can use it to take out important early stuff like Welder, Bob, Goyf, Meddling Mages.

Time Walk/Ancestral Recall: Its a blue deck.

Side Board;
Crypt: Vs Dredge, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will. A well timed Crypt is just as good as anything else.

Believer: Vs Dredge, Combo, Black decks. I played him in my board because I couldn't think of anything else. Turns out that most combo decks can't do anything vs this guy. They normally have bounce, but with this deck its pretty easy to protect your guys against the simple removal. If you can get him down turn 1 or 2 you can protect yourself from Duress, Unmask, Thoughtsieze, ect.. Against Dredge he is surprisingly good. He protects you from Unmask and Cabal Therapy. He is also a beater who at worst is a chump.

Echoing Truth: Vs Anything: Removes Zombie tokens, Goblin Tokens, Colossus, Platinum, Akroma and Even titans. Like I said earlier, I think this should be in the main board. I have never tested with it main, so I can't be positive. Would like feedback on this.

Pithing Needle: Anything, You know what it does. It's pretty simple. Your opponent has something that does something you don't like. Now it doesn't do anything. Great vs dredge. Turns off Bazaar.

Kataki, War's Wage: Vs Artifacts: It makes artifacts have upkeeps. Puts a hell of a hole in your opponents mana. On top of that he is a solid beater.

Things that didn't make the deck;
Jotun Grunt: I played with it. It was ok. Unless I was playing against Dredge it didn't last very long and really swung any games my why. Creature heavy decks aren't that popular so its not like I need the defense. Even vs Dredge it wasn't that great. I would keep putting stuff in their library and they would redredge their whole deck the next turn and over run me.

Cursecatcher: I was thinking that this was actually going to be in the deck over Ninja. A couple things made me cut it. First off, its only a 1/1, which means it can't really beat. The other idea was that I would play him over Javelineers, but since catchers ability doesn't work on creatures, I think Javelineers is better.

Aven Mindcensor: I ran him in the original build that I used. He wasn't that bad. He stops all search effects which turned out to be pretty important. In the end what does him in is costing 3 mana. On average any time I could play him I could also 2 more important things. His 2/1 body and only stopping search lands about 1/3 of the time isn't that great. He is still a powerful card that almost went into the SB. Basically I haven't made up my mind yet about this card, but I think that the slots in the deck are better used.

Morningtide: 2 mana, time it well and you can put a stop to dredge, resurrection effects and isn't stopped by chalice. I picked crypt over it because crypt is free and I can use at instant speed. If this was an instant I would play it in a heart beat. I just feel the the ability to use crypt in response to something is better then having to cast this on my turn.

Leyline of the Void: This was in the board of the original deck and it really didn't work out. It's useless if I don't open hand it and I am not going to mull away a good hand to look for it. Then If I draw into it it's a dead card.

Splash Options;
Black Splash: Black would open me up to Bob, Thoughtsieze, Duress and Leyline. How ever I feel the cuts I would have to make are too big.
Standstill>Dark Confidant
Force of Will>Thoughsieze
Daze>Duress
Tormord's Crypt>Leyling of the Void
(> is not "greater than", its "replaces")
I think that I would rather have counters in this deck over disruption. Right now I rate standstill over bob for this deck.

Red Splash: Red would give me Grim Lavamancer, Lightning Bolt, Red Elemental Blast and Sulfuric Vortex. I actually like the idea of red. I just haven't gotten around to actually making up and testing out a list. I imagine the cuts would look something like this.
Icatian Javelineers>Grim Lavamancer
Daze>Lightning Bolt
True Believer>Red Elemental Blast
Standstill>Sulfuric Vortex
I think taht REB is one of the best board cards there is. Most decks at least splash blue. Bolt is good solid removal that can also finish people. Lavamancers maybe be one the best red one drops. The two cards you need isn't hard to get between lands, removal, counters and creatures dieing. Sulfuric vortex is an aggressive card that forces in damage to help the weenies win and even makes it so my opponent gets nothing when I Swords his Colossus. I think Vortex isn't needed though, Keeping standstill or even Daze would be better because standstill cost 3 and is double R. So really I don't see the problem with the red splash, I just haven't tested it.

I hope all this info was helpful and I will get some helpful feed back.

[Demonic Attorney]

You've already posted in the active version of this thread and acknowledged your mistake, so I guess we're done here.