Could this card be busted in oath or stax

[Twaun007]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/cm3is


It possible that this card could find its way into various stax or oath decks.
In both of these decks it kind of doubles as a Time walk.
It might have some possibilities.
   

[LotusHead]

I'm guessing you meant this.

[Twaun007]

yup!

[Komatteru]

3 non-Shop mana is an awful lot of mana for Stax to pay for something that only works well when you have Tangle Wire or Smokestack ramped up.  You wouldn't want to use it on yourself, as then it would only be good if you had Stack at 0.  It could certainly tap down a whole lot of permanents with Tangle Wire, but it's limited to that interaction (besides a conditional one with Smokestack).

It could, however, help with Mana Crypt, as you could make it into an even better win condition than it currently is.

[L_O_L]

I don't know why you should run this over Seize the Day for example, which you can Mystical Tutor for and flashback from the graveyard after you Oath it away.  That additional combat phase also wins you the game on the spot.

It's blue and pitches to FoW, but that's about all I can come up with.  It's liable in terms of its card type, it's a juicy drain target and it's all around terrible unless you're Oathing, which generally means you're winning.  This makes the card a tad bit too situational for my taste.

Additionally, it's a card you simply can't afford to play against Stax.  Suppose you drop this first turn off two Moxen, and suddenly when you pass the turn you face a first turn Smokestack or Tangle Wire.  The card is just inferior to other more focused cards you can use.

[chrissss]

with Oath in play, this could mean a win 1 turn urlier, BUT the problem is, 3 mana. Oath is in play on the first or second turn, and then the angels come. I prefer having mana open to counter threats and draw cards, because tapping 3 to play a card that isnt that important, is risky. Plus I would have no space for this card.

I am sure this card combos very well, but I dont think Oath is the one.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I feel like it could be extremely good in some sort of deck based around it, but I can't imagine just adding it to any pre-existing deck.

[CCClark]

The card just seems like "I win more" card in everything out there right now, though there may be something to break it wide open.  The effect is just interesting.

[parallax]

I don't see how this lets Oath win any faster. Are we talking about the standard double-Angel creature suite? Normally you do six damage the first turn and twelve the second, which is eighteen. With this you deal twelve, then twelve. Unless your opponent doesn't deal two damage to themselves, in which case, wouldn't Misery Charm be a better choice?

[Harlequin]

I don't see how this lets Oath win any faster. Are we talking about the standard double-Angel creature suite. Normally you do six damage the first turn and twelve the second, which is eighteen. With this you deal twelve, then twelve. Unless your opponent doesn't deal two damage to themselves, in which case, wouldn't Misery Charm be a better choice?

My thoughts exactly. 

It could concievably be played in 5c Stax... but seriously, this is dramatically worse than Choke or In the eyes of Chaos.  those two cards are far more crippling than having to tap twice.

[Bill Copes]

I imagine this being busted in a control deck will tangle wire and goblin welders...perhaps a new fish variant that can actually abuse artifact mana-acceleration, or a heavily U/R shop-aggro deck.

You can keep you opponent tapped out for the entire game.

[vartemis]

It might work in a control version of oath, as you only need 1 oath per creature to keep them permanently in play.  The first upkeep shuffles any creatures in the grave back into the library, and the second poops em into play.

Your other choice (for oath) would be in a salvagers build.  If you are running 1 salvagers, you can play this, oath, hit the savlager, and oath again to dump your entire library.  Ideally you would want to play this in an oath deck that plays drains to help with the already tight mana.

Im on the fence for stax.  The only place I could see this fitting is as a replacement for ITEOC, and I like the artwork for that better, and thats the important thing, so it stays.[sarcasm]

Otherwise, this could be sideboard uberteck against people that are crappy at crypt rolls.


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[wethepeople]

so Cummulative Upkeep must be played twice, and Dark Confidant gives you two additional draws?

i am not saying those are very good reasons to run it, but i am sure there will be a deck that could break this thing in half.

[parallax]

(A)It might work in a control version of oath, as you only need 1 oath per creature to keep them permanently in play.  The first upkeep shuffles any creatures in the grave back into the library, and the second poops em into play.

(B)Your other choice (for oath) would be in a salvagers build.  If you are running 1 salvagers, you can play this, oath, hit the savlager, and oath again to dump your entire library.  Ideally you would want to play this in an oath deck that plays drains to help with the already tight mana.

(C)Im on the fence for stax.  The only place I could see this fitting is as a replacement for ITEOC, and I like the artwork for that better, and thats the important thing, so it stays.[sarcasm]

(A) I don't follow this at all. What interactions are you talking about?

(B) In Salvagers Oath, this card will give you a 50% chance of winning one turn earlier? Wouldn't Entomb be strictly better here? Unless I'm missing something.

(C) ITEOC is useful on its own. This isn't. Double upkeep isn't useful unless you resolve Smokestack or Tangle Wire.

[PacmanXSA]

I feel like it could be extremely good in some sort of deck based around it, but I can't imagine just adding it to any pre-existing deck.

What he said

Pac

[kombat]

(A)It might work in a control version of oath, as you only need 1 oath per creature to keep them permanently in play.  The first upkeep shuffles any creatures in the grave back into the library, and the second poops em into play.

(A) I don't follow this at all. What interactions are you talking about?

I think he means that with a single Oath in play, if your opponent somehow manages to get your Akroma/Razia into the graveyard (via Diabolic Edict or something), then normally, you'd need 1 turn to Oath (revealing your entire library, finding nothing, but triggering Gaea's Blessing), then shuffle the Angel back in, then the following turn, you'd Oath again to bring her back out.  With Paradox Haze, however, in your "first" upkeep, you'd find nothing, hit the Blessing and shuffle your graveyard back in, and then immediately Oath again on your "second" upkeep, bringing her back into play.

This also works without Paradox Haze if you have 2 Oaths in play.  I believe parallax was saying that having Paradox Haze obviates the need for the second Oath to achieve this type of recursion.

[sundering jerk]

I would run one or two of of this card in stax. And might play test 1 or two sideboarding this card vs. stax.
I think it would be fun if someone played mana crypt, jotun grunt, or had a taped vault.
Either way this card turns a soft lock into a hard lock and stop those few games from slipping out of you grasp.
Plus no one runs enchantment hate.

[parallax]

I would run one or two of of this card in stax. And might play test 1 or two sideboarding this card vs. stax.
I think it would be fun if someone played mana crypt, jotun grunt, or had a taped vault.
Either way this card turns a soft lock into a hard lock and stop those few games from slipping out of you grasp.
Plus no one runs enchantment hate.

Why would you tape a Vault? Are you trying to play around Chaos Orb?

I don't think this card does enough in either Stax or Oath to warrant a slot. It a win-a-little-more card. It only works when you're winning and it doesn't even do that much. Expecting your opponent to have negative upkeep effects is silly. Who cares if they take 2 damage rather than 1 from Mana Vault?

[Harlequin]

FYI: Vault damage occurs in the draw step.
This card gives you 2 oppertunities to untap vault... (you could actually tap it durring your first upkeep, float the mana into your second upkeep and untap it).  However this card will not cuase extra damage off vault.  Crypt yes, vault no.

In stax would you really rather resolve this over In the Eyes of Chaos or Choke?

Its not even a win more card, its just a 3 mana enchantment that is strictly worse than other 3 mana enchantmentss.

[netherspirit]

I'm going to try a mono blue stax build using this, obviously it will have to be changed quite a lot, but the basic principles will be the same. It's not exactly hard to cast off a Mana Drain.

[Disburden]

Stax is a deck that needs to do the following things to win the game.

It needs to play a lock turn one, or bait a lock and play a lock turn two.
The first of those things is the best option for that prison deck.

I said it on the SCG forums, but imagine that you are playing some kind of Stax deck (enchantment stax, or Welder Wire).
You are on the play and you play a Chalice for Zero. You Chalice gets countered and now to play This thing.

That doesn't look good for Stax players. This card on it's own also sucks completely on the draw. Enchantment Stax works because it's 3CC colored spells do something right away. ITEOC is a very good lock piece and the issue of colored mana is slightly sacrificed for a lock that actually does something to your opponent. This doesn't do a thing to your opponent on it's own. You can't even attack with it like Goblin Welder.

Another scenerio is that you're on the play and you play a Shop and a mox. You cast Smokestack and it actually resolves. Awesome. Now on turn two all you have is this Paradox Haze. You play that. This is probably the strongest play you can wish for with Haze and it's still not even that good. If they take out your smokestack the Haze is basically a dead piece of trash.

Stax needs to play locks, every turn, consistantly to win. That's why the deck is so hard to optimise.

[LotusHead]

(B) In Salvagers Oath, this card will give you a 50% chance of winning one turn earlier? Wouldn't Entomb be strictly better here? Unless I'm missing something.

It is possible to Oath up Salvagers, and not have Lotus OR Spellbomb handy.  Not that I would rush to throw this into Oath Salvagers.  Honden.dec for fun, maybe.

[wethepeople]

I dont know if it has already been decided or not, but if Black Vise went unrestricted they would certainly have a new trick.

For some reason i never saw the most recent B/R list, werent they supposed to put out a new one early September?

[policehq]

I don´t think this is a good idea in Stax because Kataki becomes a swinging Energy Flux, and Energy Flux becomes a game loss.

hq

[wethepeople]

I don´t think this is a good idea in Stax because Kataki becomes a swinging Energy Flux, and Energy Flux becomes a game loss.

hq

Certainly not, because when you cast the card you choose a player that gains the additional upkeep. If that were so it would be much worse since it would force you to sacrifice your perms as well, and it would be a waste since you could just wait until the next turn, rather than speeding up Stacks a little bit. This card has potential, i am sure someone will make some deck completely abusing it. I dont know though, only time will tell.

//wtp.