[Premier Article] Time Spiral Review for Vintage

[kirdape3]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13006.html



Some point in the not too distant past it simultaneously dawned upon the Magic community that this game was going to be here for a lot longer than most of us ever expected. Long after every other fad - from the hula hoop to the pog - had faded into Americana novelty, Magic has continued to thrive. Building on the past is the theme of Time Spiral. And while set designers have mined Alpha for ideas since the earliest expansions, until Time Spiral we have never seen a set thematically centered on nostalgia. And nostalgia – or at least building upon the past – is what Vintage is all about. That’s why, good or not, Time Spiral is the first set review I’ve ever written for Vintage.

[Vegeta2711]

I assume he's not reviewing Children of Kordils so we can all be shocked by Meandeck Ver. 2.04 or as Jacob will call it, not quite worse than worse than fish.

[vroman]

I would rank the most influential 5 cards as
1. Wipe Away - I think you underestimate the impact of this card greatly. I am envisioning the end of tinker-dsteel as a win condition. followed by the obsolescence of the entire Gifts-based archetype.
2. ancient grudge
3. sudden shock - you gave this card pretty short shrift. its perfect welder removal for those who want better splash damage than Darkblast against fish. I consider this premium creature kill in vintage.
4. children korlis - deliberate omision? 1-drop that stalls storm seems perfectly viable
5. trickbind

trike-bus will certainly be played, but I wouldnt consider it very influential. at best its a barely marginaly better CS big artifact. slaver will still operate basically identically in the metagame w or w/o trike-bus. the above 5 cards though are fundamentaly new mechanics, or are substantially more efficient than previous answers. Magus of the Jar has more potential to impact the metagame than trike-bus.
true, chromatic star has an automatic slot prepared for it in 2-land tendrils, but when was that ever a top-tier deck? will chromestar somehow make it top tier? No.
Im surprised you didnt mention Clockwork Hydra. for workshop-aggro or stax sideboard, hes rechargable beater who pings welders under null rod.
on your list of second tier hopefuls I will be SHOCKED if Mishra Legend ever appears in a top8 list.
grapeshot is an unknown, it could be sideboard uncounterable wrath v fish, but doubtful as win condition

[nataz]

I dunno about wipe away against Gifts. I mean DSC was always just a really efficient back up win condition a lot of the time, and wipe away does nothing against tendrils except pitch to force. Plus, its a three mana answer, eww.

I'm more worried about wipe away while playing dragon. You are nowhere near as likely to dillute the deck with simple reanimation targets (7/10?) and wipe away not only gets around counters, but it also gets around all of your instant speed tricks (necromancy + instant speed draw/discard mostly). It's going to be a lot harder to bait an animation if wipe away starts getting play. There are fairly obvious answers however; 5-color and orims chant, UBg for xantid swarm, and of course you probably already run duress. I just liked the current Dragon builds because 2 colors are pretty much amazing when you are forced to run the full accelleration and 4x bazaar.   
 

I predict that children will be played more then any of the others, at as long as fish remains a popular choice. I mean in any build running white, why not run them, at least in the SB.

[Machinus]

1. Wipe Away - I think you underestimate the impact of this card greatly. I am envisioning the end of tinker-dsteel as a win condition. followed by the obsolescence of the entire Gifts-based archetype.

I would really appreciate your elaboration on this point. Can you explain?

[Komatteru]

I am envisioning the end of tinker-dsteel as a win condition. followed by the obsolescence of the entire Gifts-based archetype.

So DSK goes away forever, and everyone is happy.  Then Gifts just wins with Tendrils only instead, which is the preferred win condition for any experienced Gifts player already.  DSK is usually the first thing I cut from Gifts. I leave Tinker b/c it gets Lotus, and is good bait.

[vroman]

if you follow the logic that Wipe Away eliminates dsteel from the metagame, then gifts can only win w tendrils. if Gifts loses half its versatility, it takes a large drop in efficiency compared to dark ritual based storm decks.
in other words if you have to kill w tendrils, why not play a dedicated storm deck?

[Implacable]

if you follow the logic that Wipe Away eliminates dsteel from the metagame, then gifts can only win w tendrils. if Gifts loses half its versatility, it takes a large drop in efficiency compared to dark ritual based storm decks.
in other words if you have to kill w tendrils, why not play a dedicated storm deck?

The deck would have to be modified, but there would be no reason to eliminate the Gifts shell, which is the most powerful shell in Vintage.  If you look at current Storm decks, they all have very different strengths and weaknesses from those that the Tendrils plan in Gifts has.  For a look at what a Gifts deck in a Wipe-Away filled meta might look like, you might want to go check out Team ABS's GUTS deck.

[zeus-online]

If wipe away kills the Tinker/DSC "Combo", wouldn't the whole point of running wipe away then suddenly be gone?
Also 3 mana is alot for an answer.

[vroman]

Team ABS's GUTS deck

link?

If wipe away kills the Tinker/DSC "Combo", wouldn't the whole point of running wipe away then suddenly be gone?

yes, we call this the metagame cycle
wipe away played -> dsteel weakened -> dsteel not played -> wipe away weakened -> wipe away not played -> dsteel strengthened -> dsteel played -> wipe away strengthened -> go to start

Also 3 mana is alot for an answer.

for an unstoppable answer? worth it.

[Razvan]

Trickbind's alright against Tendrils though. I mean, it's not the one-all-end-all defense, but unless they run duress/xantid swarm (aka, against non-dedicated storm decks like gifts), it can be problematic.

As for the rest of stephen's cards:

1) Ancient Grudge - *drool*
2) Chromatic Star - nice card, 2 for 1 mana and a card. Easy to replay, but in that damned egg deck more than belcher.
3) Trickbind - see above.
4) Wipe Away - Broken. Split second and bounce are nasty together.
5) Triskelavus - God knows I love Triskelion and Pentavus, and still need more pentavite tokens, but pentavus is gone for a reason. Triskelion is still better, like Vroman said.

1) Magus of the Jar - Too broken-looking to not be at least seriously tried.
2) Mishra - I hope this will be played... because it's fking MISHRA! 5c-stax can accomodate him somewhat, but I cannot think where else he could possibly fit in. I hope, but I have serious doubts.
3) Grapeshot -  Why is it a sorcery? Seriously? WHY?
4) Krosan Grip - I really don't see this being played that much. Can't deal with Colossus... it can delay slaver by a turn...

Nice article too.

[Purple Hat]

it's not the 3 mana part of wipe away that bothers me, I'd totally pay 2U for that effect any day of the week and twice on sunday.  at 1UU it's a little more troubbling, but probably still not bad.

[dicemanx]

I just cannot see Wipe Away as being ultimately played over other bounce spells, much less deterring an entire archetype - cards focused on stopping win conditions (and expensive ones at that) tend not to work very well as stoppers. Maybe people will try at first, and maybe even some MDG proponents might get scared off, but I think that the fears will likely be unjustified in the end. The other Gifts variants won't be bothered very much by Wipe Away, and neither will a deck like WGD (running Wipe Away is probably the worst choice out of all of the bounce spells to run vs WGD).

Wipe Away's issues go beyond the casting cost (which is hella expensive at 3 already given that it can only bounce one permanent). For them to actually be superior to other bounce spells you need to encounter a lot of situations where the opponent that Tinkered in the DSC has at least one counterspell and you have drawn into your Wipe Away (and to do that, you need to run enough of them - would people seriously consider running 3-4 main?). This has to also offset the gains made by running the other bounce spells instead, like Chain of Vapor, Repeal, Echoing Truth, Rebuild, Hurkyl's Recall, etc, which have their own strengths.

[Implacable]

Team ABS's GUTS deck

link?

Oops, sorry about that.  Here you are!
http://www.team-abs.net/guts.html

By the way, I know how to do it in HTML, but how do you link with a title rather than just a strict URL?

[zulander]

I just cannot see Wipe Away as being ultimately played over other bounce spells, much less deterring an entire archetype

I agree 100% I can see why people think it stops gifts but in all honesty all I see is this happening:

Gifts Player: Tinker, DSC go.
Not Gifts Player: EOT wipe away

Next Gifts Player Turn: TFK discarding DSC woot I got 3 useful cards.... now i go kaboom in your face.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

I think many of the decks that use DSC and/or Tendrils as win conditions will ultimately alter their lists to make use of Duress to deal with Wipe Away and Trickbind proactively.

I see both as being more of a threat "in theory" than in practice.

[Imsomniac101]

My prediction is that Split Second spells will see no play in Vintage because of they're weak costs.

[nataz]

Wow,
this is what I get for not actually playing/testing magic in like a month. I totally missed that while split second can not be responded to with an instant, any triggers that result can be. Basic I know, especially when talking about dragon, but I missed it. This makes it terrible against dragon because you can just re-start the combo in response to the leaves play trigger AND it costs 3 mana, two of which is blue. Meh, even worse then I thought it was.

Still, I kind of like it in the SB of MD gifts, and it can be a real mind fuck for your opponent game 2. It changes the value of crypt against MDGifts every time you cast a merchant scroll; which is fun. Forcing your opponents to make more decisions with less information is always good, because it gives them a chance to guess wrong. The nice thing is against something like UW fish you can go to game 2 sideboarding out the DSC kill, and sideboarding in wipe away. Now all their targeted removal (stp) and bouce (e-truth, their own wipe away, etc.) is dead, and all you have to worry about is protecting the tendrils kill from tormods. 

Oh, I also like it as a singleton in the Dragon SB. You would be surprised how many people are on autopilot and let the C-wish resolve, hoping to nab the target. Similar to the merchant scroll example, people are going to have to re-evaluate the idea of countering the tutor rather then waiting for the target.  

Trickbind seems infiny more interesting, at least in decks that don't splash for white (and therefore orims chant). In fact, I'm looking forward to testing with it. I was thinking of using it, again in dragon, as something to shore up the MDGifts esq matchups. Playing against MisDirection is such a pain when you are using Deep A as a primary draw source. Nothing like bolting yourself for 3 AND losing two cards. Maybe the trickbinds could give me a little more breathing room post board.        

[Razvan]

My prediction is that Split Second spells will see no play in Vintage because of they're weak costs.

They are not aggresively priced, no, but their effect alone should guarantee that they will get played.

T1 is all about the stack, and cramming as much crap on it as humanly possible (weaksauce until you get to double digits, i think). Something that circumvents the stack pretty much entirely (in layman's terms), and can only be stopped by Chalice (unless I misread the card), WILL get played.

Hell, I bet even MISHRA will get played.

Hell, I think I will play MISHRA.

[zeus-online]

I agree with everything dicemanx said. While it can't be answered its more expensive and does LESS then all the other playable bounce-spells.

I was actually thinking of adding some to my gifts build, but i then realized that i'd need 2-3 slots for them to really make use of the split second ability - And that would have to be in addition to the hurkyl's recall/rebuild...if i'm running that many bounce spells they'd better be repeals.

/Zeus

[cssamerican]

Children of Korlis – This will likely hurt storm based decks much more than the split-second cards because it buys time for Fish decks to build their defenses. It is somewhat useful versus agrro decks, and it is a body that can attack. Without a doubt this is the card that will see the most play because Fish is popular and this fits into it nicely.

Ancient Grudge – Top-notch sideboard card in madness or ichorid decks. This is  actually my favorite card in the set because I love the flachback mechanic when its costed aggresively and is attached to usefull card.

The split-second cards – The more I think about these cards the more I think they are only likely to be good in a severely heavy mana drain metagame. Outside of that they are just inferior to other choices. I really do like the concept though, because if anything it will help keep the format balanced in the future. I just hope they never print a non-answer card with this mechanic because that has the potential to very problematic.

Dread Return - This seems like it might be a possible sideboard card for ichorid versus other aggro decks like Goblins. I am just not sure if that demand would be big enough for it to see any real play.
 
Clockwork Hydra - It allows workshop decks to run null rod without losing the ability to ping creatures. It is probably at best a niche card, but I do think it is somewhat significant.

Everything else just seemed overhyped to me, and I doubt if any of it even sees moderate play. Heck, I only expect to see one card in this set played heavly for more than a few weeks and that is Children of Korlis. Maybe I am being negative, but nothing jumps out at me when I look at this set.

[yespuhyren]

and still need more pentavite tokens

Well I have 11 or so pentavite tokens for you so come to a tourney

[GrandpaBelcher]

I have to admit that I'm still not convinced about the utility of Children of Korlis.  UW Fish should already have a good matchup against PitchLong and its ilk.  Much of PitchLong's hate against Fish's other annoying creatures (mostly True Believer and Mage) works equally well against the Children because it can be played before the Children will be effective.  Also, a well-built combo deck can storm for more than 18 through hate without too much trouble if given enough time to set up.  PitchLong even gains the life from a Children'd Tendrils, giving it more planning time.  PitchLong players might change their play style on account of the Children, but I don't think the Children will be an effective weapon against combo and their use will fade away.  Fish will have to aim for getting Children, Believer, or Mage in play with another Mage naming Massacre.

I look forward to the use of Ancient Grudge and the utility split split second cards, though.

[UR]

I'm more worried about wipe away while playing dragon. You are nowhere near as likely to dillute the deck with simple reanimation targets (7/10?) and wipe away not only gets around counters, but it also gets around all of your instant speed tricks (necromancy + instant speed draw/discard mostly). It's going to be a lot harder to bait an animation if wipe away starts getting play. There are fairly obvious answers however; 5-color and orims chant, UBg for xantid swarm, and of course you probably already run duress. I just liked the current Dragon builds because 2 colors are pretty much amazing when you are forced to run the full accelleration and 4x bazaar.

You can still play around a Wipe Away with a Necromancy provided you have an untapped Bazaar. Just let the Wipe Away resolve, put the dragon-trigger on the stack, tap your Bazaar and discard the Dragon he just bounced. Then cast Necromancy on the Dragon and proceed normally from there (with the Witness --> Ancestral kill). So there really isn't any reason to be more worried about this one than Chain of Vapor for instance.

My number one card for the set is Ancient Grudge though. It is a nice and cheap way for budget hate decks to gain some sort of card advantage and I think it'll see a lot of play in powered decks as well (Ichorid, maybe 5C-Dragon, etc.).

[Cross]

To me the last thing the format needed was another answer to darksteel colossus. There are already like infinite ways to do it, a lot of which were already difficult to deal with, like waterfront bouncer. If you are going to play this why not just play 4x swords and 4x plow in your fish deck. I can't see a drain deck using this card as the best way to beat colossus is not to deal with it, but rather combo around it. Plus if people do play whipe away I hear there's another big boy who would gladly destroy all your lands on the way out who is just as useful.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

If you are going to play this why not just play 4x swords and 4x plow in your fish deck.

Cuz swords and plow are the same card?

The split seconds cards will certainly have SOME impact on Vintage, but I don't expect them to radically alter the format.  Who has priority at any given time does become more important, and yes, you might have to worry about what's in your opponent's hand even if you have infy counters, but as Dicemanx said, the split second cards attack win conditions, and attacking win conditions is never an effective way to win.  It might grab you the odd game here and there, but it's not the same thing as actual disruption. 

I, for one, would rather have a Duress against Gifts than Wipe Away or Trickbind in pretty much every deck I can think of, because it actually stops them from stopping you or from getting cards.  Attacking the win conditions of a control deck doesn't stop them from gaining resources or stopping you, and that's a bad thing, becuase given enough time they can play around/through almost anything (I'v had Wipe Away used on my Colossus and simply won by hardcasting him, because I had card and mana advantage over my opponent, and keep in mind that DSC is pretty much just the back-up plan win with Gifts anyways, to get around GY/mana hate or whatever)

Likewise, against any combo deck something like Chant is better than Trickbind because it actually stops them from doing anything at all in a given turn, while Trickbind only works on certain targets, as well as costing more mana, and is easy for the combo player to play around (for example, they can tutor up a Duress, attack with Xantd Swarm (if they attack with Swarm you can still chant them in response to buy yourself a turn)).  Pretty much the only thing it has over chant is being blue.  I would also prefer a Duress against combo over Trickbind, or countermagic to actually stop their threats, or Sphere of Resistence, or Null Rod, etc (even though the latter can be bounced, at least they put contraints upon the combo player's resources)

Chromatic Star and Ancient Grudge are both solid cards; they are good at what they do and will probably see some play.

Mishra is horrible.  I don't even know why people are mentioning this guy.  1UBR and pretty much win-more, 4/4 that does nothing on it's own and can't even be cast off Workshop...

Grapeshot is interesting for combo and has some potential, but it's role can often be fulfilled by a simple Chain of Vapour most of the time, which is cheaper and blue.  I don't expect to see Grapeshot for 21 killing Children and then going off or whatever, because Combo already has Brainfreeze to get around Mage or Children (which is also Blue and might even require less storm, and IT doesn't even see play.), and Grapeshot can't kill both a True Believer and your opponent anyways, since the copies have to target when they go on the stack.  Maybe it could be useful as a Burning Wish target for those builds of Gifts still running it (if they have Mage on Tendrils, or you can't get BB but have lots of storm so you just sac lotus for RRR or whatever.  it's also cheaper)

Magus of the Jar: Looks like it has potential simpy because of the broken effect, I mean sure it's a creature without haste that dies to REB/stp, as well as getting chained, etc, and also costing 3UU, I reserve judgement about this card.  Only time will tell if it will have a serious effect or not IMO.

Krosan Grip: How often do people play Disichant or Naturalize?  This is green AND costs an additonal mana.  Split Second is powerful but Wipe Away is pretty much better because it deals with all of the same stuff+more and is blue (and like I said, even it isn't very good simply because of the casting cost compared to other versatile bounce already available)

Triskelevus: Meh, it might just be one more toy big artifact for Slaver.  Trike is generally better, as many people have already said.  This might see some play anyways but I doubt it will have much effect.

Children will probably be played in Fish as many people have said.  It's not horrible, but then again neither is it amazing, really.  Lions/Isamaru might be better just because of the increase in the clock compensates for/ is better than the marginally slowing disruption provided by the Children.

Clockwork Hydra: I also think this guy is trash, I mean sure, he pings shit under rod, but so does Razormane Masticore as well as the first strike and a much more significant clock, because he doesn't lose power/toughness.  Yes, you have to discard, but against the deck he is good against(Fish) this guy is going to win you the game if he stays alive anyways so it's pretty much irrelevent.

[Arctanis]

I think that people are underestimating the power of these split second cards.  The spell is guaranteed to resolve, and cannot be responded to.  As long as the effect is powerful enough, the casting cost is for the most part, irrelevant. 

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I think that people are underestimating the power of these split second cards.  The spell is guaranteed to resolve, and cannot be responded to.  As long as the effect is powerful enough, the casting cost is for the most part, irrelevant. 

The problem is, the spit second cards are conditional answers rather than actual threats.  Powerful threats are good even when they cost lots of mana because they win you the game: ex, Desire, Jar, Bargain, etc.  Answers are good because they are cheap and efficient and versatile, ex Chain of Vapour, Hurkly's Recall, Rebuild.  Answers don't win the game on their own, while threats can, and note that the bounce cards I mentioned, which all see actual play, cost only 1 blue and can be threats in certain circumstances because they act as storm+mana enablers as well.

[Purple Hat]

to add to the above, even when the answer will "win you the game" like against dragon, it's still a conditional card requiring you to 1) have the answer and be able to play it at the relevant time, and 2) not have them win the game anyway, like dragon going off even with both dragon triggers on the stack because of wipe away.

Hale

[zeus-online]

As long as the effect is powerful enough, the casting cost is for the most part, irrelevant. 

Someone needs a lesson in magic theory i think....
Mana costs are like....THE most important thing in magic...fireball for 20 is a pretty powerful effect, but i don't see alot of people throwing balls of fire around.

Only time will tell if it will have a serious effect or not IMO.

That goes for all new cards though.

But i agree on most of the things you said

/Zeus